Analyzing the Death Rattles

[Lightning]

I like that idea too, but how is Elhokar the one who killed Khaladin's promises?  Khaladin had made no promises before Tien was sent to war.  While the king is partially to blame for Tien being sent to the front, I don't see how he is to blame for Khaladin's failed promise to protect him.

 

Perhaps obliquely Elhokar is to blame for Sadeas's behavior to the bridgemen (in that Elhokar did not rein Sadeas in); and he is directly responsible for overreacting to Khaladin's call to face Amaram.  But again, I don't see how this makes Elhokar the one who killed Khaladin's promises. Maybe there is something else?

 

Hmmm....

 

Maybe it has to do with the fact that it was Khaladin's decision to initially not protect the king that led to Syl's near death...

[Observer]

I like that idea too, but how is Elhokar the one who killed Khaladin's promises?  Khaladin had made no promises before Tien was sent to war.  While the king is partially to blame for Tien being sent to the front, I don't see how he is to blame for Khaladin's failed promise to protect him.

 

Perhaps obliquely Elhokar is to blame for Sadeas's behavior to the bridgemen (in that Elhokar did not rein Sadeas in); and he is directly responsible for overreacting to Khaladin's call to face Amaram.  But again, I don't see how this makes Elhokar the one who killed Khaladin's promises. Maybe there is something else?

 

Hmmm....

 

Maybe it has to do with the fact that it was Khaladin's decision to initially not protect the king that led to Syl's near death...

Check RShara's post about 2 above you. She's basically got this quote nailed down to the floor, squirming and wriggling but mostly defeated and I'm not sure where I'm going with this.

[Aleksiel]

I think this one

They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.

 

 

Refers to

Kaladin and Shallan getting back from the fall into the chasms with the gemheart; Kaladin even had gloryspren around him when he gave it to Dalinar.

 

Edit: Also, to further support what RShara said in case someone's still doubting I'd like to point that 'the one who killed promises' is

the chapter where Dalinar told Kaladin about Elhokar and the Roshone affair.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Aleksiel

[RShara]

Yep, the idea was that

Elhokar is the one that screwed up and ended up causing Roshone to be sent to Kaladin's hometown, causing Tien to get conscripted, and later killed.  And also he's the one who's insisting on the Vengeance Pact, which leads to Sadeas' bridges, et al.

 

@Observer:  Ew?

 

I think this one

 

Refers to

Kaladin and Shallan getting back from the fall into the chasms with the gemheart; Kaladin even had gloryspren around him when he gave it to Dalinar.

Not to mention the chapter is called True Glory

I can't remember which thread those were pointed out in, don't give me credit for these.  I'm completely oblivious

Edited March 27, 2014 by RShara

[Lightning]

RShara, that sounds reasonable.  And Aleksiel, I think you are correct!

 

Note that the rattle says "two dead men" and we know Shallan's a woman, so that makes me think we shouldn't look at the death rattles too literally.  Which in turn makes me wonder what good it will do Taravangian to keep track of the rattles.  If they are not completely accurate, how can they be useful to him?

[Delightful]

Can I just say, I *love* how the chapter titles give major hints to understanding the death rattles. The depth and sneakiness to this story continues to amaze me.

I wonder how many books ahead it's foreshadowing for.

[Tempus]

Ten. WoB has it that something important regarding the ending is hidden in the prologue of Way of Kings, like it was in Mistborn.

[RShara]

Actually I think he says that the ending is hidden somewhere in these 2 books, scattered, not just in the beginning, like in Mistborn.

 

Ah, here it is.

 

Q:  The ending of Mistborn was hidden in the first chapter epigraphs. Is there something similar to that in The Way of Kings
A:  There is, but they are hidden in different places. The last chapter of the Stormlight Archive is somewhere in these two books.

[Tempus]

Ah yes, the curator of the WoB compilation thread strikes again! Good call.

[RShara]

lol yeah makes it easy for me to find those things.  Plus, I've read them so often I practically have them memorized..........

I think I need a life?

[Aleksiel]

Note that the rattle says "two dead men" and we know Shallan's a woman, so that makes me think we shouldn't look at the death rattles too literally.  Which in turn makes me wonder what good it will do Taravangian to keep track of the rattles.  If they are not completely accurate, how can they be useful to him?

 

Oh, it is actually correct because the word has two meanings - male human or any gender individual of the human species. It's just said in a misleading way, though so far the death rattles predicting future events that have been recognized are all not really straight forward, but still technically correct in each word; so they will be useful to T as long as he uses his imagination and keeps an open mind. 

[Observer]

WANDERSAIL
I hold the suckling shild in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw
-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

This one here stinks of both Darkness and (WOR SPOILERS)

Shallan's mother, coming into the beliefs that killing Radiants will hold back the Desolations.

THE JOURNEY
Re-Sephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to the abomantations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!
-Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyed dockworked in his forties, father of three.

And this one refers to one of the Unmade, which we know from Taravangian move around in Shadesmar and mess with things. Looks like one of them got hungry and decided to grab a meal from underneat Moelach.

[RShara]

The Death Rattles all talk about future events, though, not past ones.  So it couldn't have been about your spoiler.

[happyman]

Looking back on this thread, every death rattle that we have managed to decipher is pretty unambiguous when we actually see what happens.  All the pieces fit, nobody really argues.

 

This is in contrast to the wild speculation that we do when we haven't seen the event yet.  Examples of death rattles which were fulfilled in WoR show this very clearly.

 

So unless you can explain every word and sentence in a meaningful way, I would bet against any interpretation of any unfulfilled death rattles.

[LSU Tiger]

AN HONOR Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew. -Dated Batabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: A lighteyed child of five years. Dictation improved remarkably when giving sample.

 

I wanted to read these now that we know they are glimpses of the future. I've enjoyed all the theories but I didn't see this mentioned. It is of Kaladin at the tower after he attracted all the arrows and has collapsed. He is remembering all the friends in the past he fail to protect, sees the friends before him that are about to die. "Feast I must drink clings to their faces" gems in the parshendi beards. The words, The oath.

Edited March 28, 2014 by LSU Tiger

[pdash]

RShara, that sounds reasonable.  And Aleksiel, I think you are correct!

 

Note that the rattle says "two dead men" and we know Shallan's a woman, so that makes me think we shouldn't look at the death rattles too literally.  Which in turn makes me wonder what good it will do Taravangian to keep track of the rattles.  If they are not completely accurate, how can they be useful to him?

I agree I don't think it will do Taravangian much good to keep track of the death rattles.  It seems that the source of the death rattles is one of the unmade, then doesn't that mean it is ultimately Odium's desire they be heard (I don't think he wants to help humanity).

 

Then there is the whole Vorin thing with prophecy being evil, prohibitions like that don't tend to be wholly arbitrary.

 

And even beyond that as GRRM would say "prophecy is dangerous ground on which to build".  It seems they are likely true, but what real good does that do anyone because in a situation where you only receive a single line of ambiguous text you are forced to create your own context to understand each individual rattle, and consequently often select the wrong context.  To me it seems like Taravangian is focused on something that provides a poor guide for future action.   

[Observer]

That would be true, 

 

I agree I don't think it will do Taravangian much good to keep track of the death rattles.  It seems that the source of the death rattles is one of the unmade, then doesn't that mean it is ultimately Odium's desire they be heard (I don't think he wants to help humanity).

 

Then there is the whole Vorin thing with prophecy being evil, prohibitions like that don't tend to be wholly arbitrary.

 

And even beyond that as GRRM would say "prophecy is dangerous ground on which to build".  It seems they are likely true, but what real good does that do anyone because in a situation where you only receive a single line of ambiguous text you are forced to create your own context to understand each individual rattle, and consequently often select the wrong context.  To me it seems like Taravangian is focused on something that provides a poor guide for future action.   

 

Death Rattles are vague and hard to work with unless you already know what happened, at which point they become frighteningly clear. We can see what they mean because we have the text in front of us, but they're largely useless to most people.

Vargo is not most people. He has the Diagram, mapping out the future up until the end, which gives him exactly the context he needs. The Diagram says six armies will march on Jah Keved, a rattle says something about seven rebels attacking their home. It's pretty clear with a huge tome of future and page history what it means. I'd actually say he has a very solid ground to built upon.

[trendkill]

We have seen prophecies altered for nefarious reasons before. Hopefully Big T is careful when interpreting and acting in them.

[happyman]

AN HONOR Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew. -Dated Batabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: A lighteyed child of five years. Dictation improved remarkably when giving sample.

 

I wanted to read these now that we know they are glimpses of the future. I've enjoyed all the theories but I didn't see this mentioned. It is of Kaladin at the tower after he attracted all the arrows and has collapsed. He is remembering all the friends in the past he fail to protect, sees the friends before him that are about to die. "Feast I must drink clings to their faces" gems in the parshendi beards. The words, The oath.

 

Minor disagreement:  I believe that this rattle is refeurring to that single moment where Kaladin is hanging in the air jumping over the chasm ahead of his men getting the bridge in place while Syl demands that he speak the words.  Same basic event, but just a tad bit more literal.  Interesting how the Parshendi are apparently referred to as friends.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure the rattle about "two dead men" is using the term in reference to the species "man" in contrast to other species.  It's an unfortunate accident of English history that the species name and male sex name are the same (and it is not true in other languages; it wasn't true in older forms of English either), but it is a sensible and literal interpretation of the rattle.

[Odium's_Shard]

While I agree that it is correct of Taravangian to try to use his gift and the Diagram in combination with the rattles, I am also aware that prophecy appears to be of Odium and the Unmade, and may be thus alterable (Ruin's own changes were very subtle, only Kwaan saw them).

 

As part of a random conjecture on what causes the death rattles, there is a Form of the Listeners that was supposedly able to prophesise or catch glimpses of the future, in a similar way to the death rattle. Presumably, this is through the binding of some sort of voidspren to the Listener, and is one of the forms directly controllable/influenced by Odium.

 

What if, in certain moments of death, certain more evil spren begin to gather around the person and the Cognitive intervention of the Unmade responsible for the visions allows for some temporary bonding or association that might grant the person this snippet of wisdom (it clearly comes from an external source, potentially Invested directly from Odium through a voidspren, because of the example of the light-eyed child having remarkable clarity and diction for his age)?

 

Just a thought.

 

Odium's_Shard

[Cheese Ninja]

I'm still fairly proud of myself that I got the

"two dead men came from the pit"

epigraph mostly right on the first page of this thread, back in September 2012.  I think I may have said it even earlier as well on a timewastersguide thread, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

 

Also, pretty much all the events of Way of Kings occur after the "1000 days, the Everstorm comes" of the very first epigraph, so I'm curious as to whether that epigraph is even related to a particular event, or if it is just wildly inaccurate.

[Senor Feesh]

I don't believe that the Epigraph refers to the Parshendi as friends. I assumed Friends before' was in reference to Dalinar and Adolin, and the next line about 'the feast I must drink' is not directly referencing the previous line when it says 'their faces'. Could be wrong though.

[Observer]

Death is my Life, my Strength becomes my Weakness, the Journey has ended.

If these things predict the future, which radiant is going to fall apart here? Probably not Kaladin, not with how far and how strongly he's built up. Shallan has a level of self-awareness that makes shattering really difficult for her, so I'm betting on a Kholin here.

[Leuthie]

That could be Eshonai while transforming into storm form. Killing will be her life, her new strength betrays her, and she can no longer wander and explore as she had wished to do.

[Observer]

Nice interpretation Leuthie! I like it a lot! You have any similar thoughts on this one?

 

They break the land itself! They want it, but in their rage they will destroy it. Like the jealous man burns his things rather than let them be taken by his enemies! They come!

 

-Delivered by bridgeman Maps as he died after a bridge run, probably around 5 seconds pre-death.

 

The "They come!" sounds like the Voidbringer warnings, so this could be insight into how Odium himself works, but I've shown myself to be cripplingly farsighted in this matter.

 

Also, fixed those embarrassing spelling errors that have been sitting in the OP for over a year.

 

EDIT: Line breaks again.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Observer