Why The Knights Betrayed Their Spren

[Paranoid King he/him]

I was rereading WoR and thinking about why (and how) the knights radient betrayed their spren. The best idea I had about it was that they did something to make all spren leave their hosts. This would definitely count as a betrayal by a spren.

And the reason that they would do this is to stop the Parshendi once and for all. They are tired of fighting the Parshendi again and again, and by giving up all their spren, the parshendi are trapped in Dullform. By losing their powers and responsibilities, they rid humanity of its largest threat and get cool servants! Everyone wins! (Except the spren.)

Thoughts? Ideas? Feedback?

[Aleksiel]

Welcome to the forum! The Recreance is after the Last Desolation and according to a recent WoB  (that's short for word of Brandon) the Recreance is closer to present time than it to the Last Desolation. So I don't know if the KR had been fighting the Parshendi. At the very least there shouldn't have been any Voidbringers around and present day Parshendi are something normal soldiers can handle. Not worth breaking Oaths for in my opinion. According to the latter's legends of the Last Legion, the Parshendi chose to abandon their gods (and some forms apparently).  

Edited February 23, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Patrick Star]

Actually, the spren kept leaving the radiants' videogames outside of the case.

 

COME ON SYL!!! YOU KNOW THAT HIGHSTORMS SCRATCH MY GAMES!  NOW I CAN'T PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS FOR A WEEK!  Well, at least AWWWWW STORM IT, MADDEN TOO?!?!?!  THAT'S IT, SYL, THIS IS OVER!

 

YOU HEAR ME?!  OVER!!!!!

[hoser he/him]

Welcome!

We know that the surviving spren consider it a betrayal.  However, the bonded radiantspren must have been around when the Radiants were planning the Recreance (assuming Tanavast's projection was accurate).  So planning the Recreance wasn't a betrayal of the Oaths.  It is not clear that the spren involved considered it a betrayal.

Furthermore, the jettisoning of the Shards was very deliberate.  If they didn't want people to have the Shards, they could have been stashed in Urithiru, for example.  I suspect Sandersonian twists in our interpretation of the meaning of the Recreance. 

[king of nowhere]

we know that  there is some "secret that broke them", and that supposedly would explain why those radiants bbetrayed their spren and forsook their oaths. It is probably linked to Nale trying to kill the new radiants. BUt I doubt we know enough to figure it out.

[natc]

Actually, the spren kept leaving the radiants' videogames outside of the case.

COME ON SYL!!! YOU KNOW THAT HIGHSTORMS SCRATCH MY GAMES! NOW I CAN'T PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS FOR A WEEK! Well, at least AWWWWW STORM IT, MADDEN TOO?!?!?! THAT'S IT, SYL, THIS IS OVER!

YOU HEAR ME?! OVER!!!!!

I just realized Kaladin can literally play that Gravity Rush game on PS Vita using pure gyro controls for camera movement in midair.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

I just realized Kaladin can literally play that Gravity Rush game on PS Vita using pure gyro controls for camera movement in midair.

 

Lol.

 

Actually, the spren kept leaving the radiants' videogames outside of the case.

 

COME ON SYL!!! YOU KNOW THAT HIGHSTORMS SCRATCH MY GAMES!  NOW I CAN'T PLAY SUPER SMASH BROS FOR A WEEK!  Well, at least AWWWWW STORM IT, MADDEN TOO?!?!?!  THAT'S IT, SYL, THIS IS OVER!

 

YOU HEAR ME?!  OVER!!!!!

 

I'm pretty sure that Radiants would play Call of Duty.

[Patrick Star]

I'm pretty sure that Radiants would play Call of Duty.

HALO, actually.

[xianpoxi]

I don't think the Recreance was "planned" by the Knights Radiant.

 

From Dalinar's vision of it, the Knights were in shock. Something broke their will. Collectively. I'm guessing it is some overwhelming contradiction in to their Oaths. 

 

There has been another idea in the Stormlight archive, which I don't particularly like or wish to agree with, but I feel compelled to mention it as a possible part of this "overwhelming contradiction".

 

The knights are focussed on helping mankind and defending against the desolations and against Odium.  If their very existence seemed to bring about, encourage or cause the desolations, then it could be a cause for despair for many. Its a collective guild trip, ala peter parker or Kaladin. Blaming themselves for the evils they were not able to protect against.  I don't like this idea, but it could provide the contradiction. We also see some indicators that this is so in Words of Radiance. 

The interlude chapters among the Parshendi (before storm form) indicate that the reports of a surgebinder (Kaladin) amongst the Alendi indicate a return of the Gods. 

Also, Nin, in his persecution of surgebinders, (or extreme execution of justice for them) indicates that they will unwittingly bring about greater chaos and destruction. 

 

I don't understand how surgebinders, who are bonded to spren which are part of the powers of Honor and Cultivation could be responsible for the actions of the agents of Odium. but it could be constructed somehow. 

 

I imagine the Knights saw the Recreance as their best way of preserving life. A near hopeless sacrifice brought on by shock and despair. 

 

The contradiction is one possibility. Other possibilities seem to be the death of Honor, and perhaps a discovery of the deception of the Heralds. 

 

When did Honor die? Obviously it was before the visions came to Dalinar. It takes a long time for Odium to expand his influence. It seems Cultivation is still around, but broken by Honor's death. She doesn't seem actively engaged. Or maybe her efforts against Odium are the only reason Roshar is not gone already as shown in Dalinar's vision. It could be that Honor died 1000 years ago and the effects are just catching up. 

 

Or was it discovery  of the Herald's failure? The Heralds seem to burn in hellfire for hundreds or thousands of years in between desolations when they come back to help mankind. Why do they have such a system and pact? If they are used to disappearing, the Radiants likely may not have known that they abandoned their duty for a long time. 

 

However, the reason for the Recreanse is unknown amongst people and spren alike. It was too sudden and too complete for any explanations. There had to be an overwhelming event to cause it. Likely some revolation of terrible knowledge. Anything else, and they would have slowly dwindled and some information would have survived.

[natc]

We're not denying they were shocked by some revelation that got them to do this.

They clearly planned after that fact, or we wouldn't have several hundred knights showing up to the same fort and renouncing their bonds in unison.

[Patrick Star]

Kaladin is Master Chief.  Syl is Cortana.  Kal's shardplate and shardblade are his Mjolnir Power Armor and Combat Knife.  The Knights Radiant are the Spartans.  The Voidbringers are the Flood, Odium is the Primordial, and the people on Yolen are the Forerunners.

[name_here]

The Diagram coded message indicates that whatever caused the Recreance would still apply to the new Radiants. It's thus unlikely that it was in response to something the original Orders had done wrong, because the new Orders would likely respond by just declaring they're not going to do that. It's also probably not part of some grand strategy to defeat Odium, because obviously it didn't work the first time and there's no reason to repeat it.

 

I also really don't believe that Surgebinding causes Desolations. Nin says they do, but he's also completely off his rocker. The Diagram, meanwhile, says the Desolation needs no usher. Jasnah says that the bonding spren are coming back because the Desolation is incoming, and Pattern, Wyndle, and Syl imply the same. That wouldn't make sense if them showing up would cause it.

 

I really don't know what it could be. It needs to be inherent to Radiants and needs to apply to all the Orders. The only oath that they all share is Life Before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. So if there's any contradiction in their oaths it needs to apply to that one. Except that if they'd actually hit a contradiction that would break their spren directly. And killing their spren is obviously a very bad thing to do, and if there were some alternative action that was worse they could just not do either. I could see potentially discovering that they needed to murder an innocent to avert something, but if that happened I'd expect them to cast aside their oaths and then do that instead of just wandering off.

 

The only possibility I can see is that the bond itself is somehow immoral, and of course the first oath rejects the idea they should do something wrong for the greater good. But, well, I can't see anything wrong with the bond. The spren enter into it voluntarily, the knights don't get asked to be bonded but cooperate voluntarily, and it doesn't seem to do any harm.

[hoser he/him]

The Diagram coded message indicates that whatever caused the Recreance would still apply to the new Radiants. It's thus unlikely that it was in response to something the original Orders had done wrong, because the new Orders would likely respond by just declaring they're not going to do that. It's also probably not part of some grand strategy to defeat Odium, because obviously it didn't work the first time and there's no reason to repeat it.

I have no idea whether the Recreance was part of some grand strategy, but it certainly seems possible.  It could be that it actually is working currently.  Maybe Odium needed to think he could win in order to commit his forces and be defeated.  The preservation of the dawnchant and the in-book Way of Kings at Vanrial suggest that it is possible. 

The Knights and the spren could have agreed to a plan which was compatible with their oaths except for the part about turning the weapons over to the non-Radiants.  This would explain why the knights functioned until the moment of turning over their weaponry and ceased being Radiants immediately.  Turning the weapons over could have been the bad thing to achieve a good result that broke the oaths. 

 

If someone who has an electronic copy of WOR  would quote the epigraphs for chapters 38 and 40, it might help this discussion, as they seem quite relevant and I believe the one from chapter 40 follows the one from chapter 38 directly. 

[karaokeang she/her]

My hypothesis is that the KR abandoned the orders because the orders were being perverted to fight wars against each other rather than against Odium. 

 

In Dalinar's flashback at the keep, it clearly shows that the Knights were lining up to fight ordinary people not against voidbringers.  It had been a long time since the last desolation and I imagine that local kings and leaders were using the KRs warring amongst themselves. This seems directly counter to the philosophies in the in-novel Way of Kings.  I figure it was a mass, no we are not going to fight your wars, FU thing.

[Patrick Star]

Kaladin is Master Chief.  Syl is Cortana.  Kal's shardplate and shardblade are his Mjolnir Power Armor and Combat Knife.  The Knights Radiant are the Spartans.  The Voidbringers are the Flood, Odium is the Primordial, and the people on Yolen are the Forerunners.

 

And I forgot, the Recreance was the firing of the HALO array.

[hoser he/him]

The theory seems certainly possible. 

My hypothesis is that the KR abandoned the orders because the orders were being perverted to fight wars against each other rather than against Odium. 

 

In Dalinar's flashback at the keep, it clearly shows that the Knights were lining up to fight ordinary people not against voidbringers.  It had been a long time since the last desolation and I imagine that local kings and leaders were using the KRs warring amongst themselves. This seems directly counter to the philosophies in the in-novel Way of Kings.  I figure it was a mass, no we are not going to fight your wars, FU thing.

My recollection is that the opponents were called "devils."  I don't remember anything else about the opponent.  While I can imagine Aimians or another race being the opposition, I am not aware of any evidence about who or what the opposition were.  Where does it clearly show that they were fighting ordinary people?

 

treated the man like a brightlord. “… the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.” “But why?” the darkeyed officer demanded. “Why are Radiants coming here? They should be fighting the devils on the front lines!”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 729-730). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Honor's Radiance]

I imagine the Knights saw the Recreance as their best way of preserving life. A near hopeless sacrifice brought on by shock and despair. 

 

The contradiction is one possibility. Other possibilities seem to be the death of Honor, and perhaps a discovery of the deception of the Heralds. 

 

When did Honor die? Obviously it was before the visions came to Dalinar. It takes a long time for Odium to expand his influence. It seems Cultivation is still around, but broken by Honor's death. She doesn't seem actively engaged. Or maybe her efforts against Odium are the only reason Roshar is not gone already as shown in Dalinar's vision. It could be that Honor died 1000 years ago and the effects are just catching up. 

 

I hadn't thought to connect it to the death of Honor, but that might make sense, especially if the Bondsmiths were bonded to spren directly related to Honor, like the Stormfather (or even to Honor himself?).

 

I'm inclined agree that they had to have rationalized it somehow. It seems unlikely (and terrifying) that they might have all suddenly decided their oaths were worthless simultaneously. How they rationalized is the question, and I think a key factor is whether they knew that breaking their oaths and stepping away from their Orders would kill their spren? If so, why did they do it anyway? Were the spren involved in the decision, or were they tossed aside? Did the spren know they would die?

 

The Diagram coded message indicates that whatever caused the Recreance would still apply to the new Radiants. It's thus unlikely that it was in response to something the original Orders had done wrong, because the new Orders would likely respond by just declaring they're not going to do that. It's also probably not part of some grand strategy to defeat Odium, because obviously it didn't work the first time and there's no reason to repeat it.

 

It's possible it's something inherent to the way in which the humans and spren are bonded. If, for instance, the KR tended to take their powers for granted and take advantage of their spren, it might lead them to stop listening to their spren, who provide reminders of their oaths. And, as we've already seen, this kills the spren. More to the point, we've already seen even Kaladin taking his powers for granted and starting to take advantage of Syl.

 

Certainly, the spren left in the Cognitive Realm, and the Stormfather especially, are under the impression that it is the natural course of the bond that it will eventually end in betrayal. So I wonder what they know that we don't, and did they have the same opinion of what was happening on Roshar around the time of the Recreance as the spren bonded to Radiants had?

 

My hypothesis is that the KR abandoned the orders because the orders were being perverted to fight wars against each other rather than against Odium. 

 

In Dalinar's flashback at the keep, it clearly shows that the Knights were lining up to fight ordinary people not against voidbringers.  It had been a long time since the last desolation and I imagine that local kings and leaders were using the KRs warring amongst themselves. This seems directly counter to the philosophies in the in-novel Way of Kings.  I figure it was a mass, no we are not going to fight your wars, FU thing.

 

I hope it's something like that, and not something more nefarious. This is a plausible possibility, though I'm not convinced the spren would necessarily consider that a betrayal; I'd almost be inclined to think at least some of them might consider it worth dying to try to avert petty wars among various kings, etc.

[natc]

If they wanted to not influence warfare at all they should've dismissed their blades and plate before breaking their bonds and locking them in like this . . .

[Paranoid King he/him]

In Dalinar's visions, the parshendi aren't the thing he's fighting against. Usually it is some dark thing unknown to the world he lives in. In fact, in one of his visions, a spren animates the stone to fight against him. That doesn't happen anymore, and I think it might be because the knights abandoned their oaths.

[VladJunior]

Could the link between Honor, Cultivation and Odium be temporal, like the building of their shard pools? They can only leave their individual planets when the shard pool on Roshar fills up and that only happens once every thousands of years or so, unless there is a break in the oath pact (like the last desolation) and then a break in the use of surges, like with the recreance, that slows down the filling of the shard pools and the attraction of the spren for each Shard holder (Honor, Cultivation and Odium). So Odium is bound until the spren return and they only return when the pool is filled, which fills more quickly with the use of the surges.

Just a thought.

[Darkness he/him]

Just to play Nalan's advocate here for a second. Maybe he isn't wrong about Surgebinding causing Desolations. Obviously the amount of power expended by Surgebinding is fairly minute compared to the overall power of Honor. However, it is feasible that enough Surgebinders could cause a noticeable diminishing of Honor's power, like when Preservation's power was expended to create a little something extra in each Scadrian.

I would postulate that Nalan's assumptions 'could be' as follows:

1. The Oathpact is a seal on Odium's influence over Roshar. It protects Roshar for as long as certain conditions are held (i.e. the Herald(s) go back after Desolations, etc.)

2. The Oathpact is fuelled by Honor. It is Honor's power that keeps Odium at bay while conditions are met.

3. Surgebinding uses a portion, however small, of Honor's power (Stormlight).

4. The burning of Stormlight exhausts Honor's power by small increments, reducing the energy Honor puts into the Oathpact.

5. The weakening of the Oathpact allows Odium to exert a push into Roshar, causing a Desolation. Desolations escalate as Surgebinders use their powers to counter the enemy, further weakening the Oathpact.

6. The Desolations end up killing a certain amount of Surgebinders, which naturally causes a shift toward less Surgebinding. The Oathpact slowly reinstates itself.

7. The Heralds have to leave once the Desolation is done (because it's part of the Oathpact, or because they use Stormlight less efficiently, draining the Oathpact at greater amounts than normal Surgebinders) lest they cause another Desolation. Ishi seems to believe the former.

8. The cycle begins anew once a sufficient amount of Surgebinding is done and the Oathpact is weak enough for Odium to push.

 

As a side note, Nalan is not hunting the other Heralds to prevent the Desolations. They left their Honorblades. He is only hunting actively Surgebinding individuals. Szeth is not a threat because Szeth is not a Surgebinder without an Honorblade.

Also, the Knights Radiant could have been the Heralds' attempt at managing the use of Surgebinding, and making Surgebinders more efficient at using Stormlight, draining the Oathpact in safe, controlled levels. Nalan could have anticipated the eventually failure of the system, and thus been hesitant to sponsor an order. The Knights may have eventually realized that Odium's forces (like the stone-animating spren) were growing more powerful as there were more Knights/Surgebinders and initiated the Recreance as a means of countering the drain on Honor.

I'm not saying I agree with Nalan, but his position could be logical, and he could actually be right in his own way.

[Patrick Star]

Well, the Parshendi DID adopt stormform after they saw Kaladin radianting their army, so Nalan is at least partially correct.

[Lirins hand]

To follow the Scadrian idea, Ruin could influence those who were mentally ill more strongly. (sorry, don't know how to do the spoiler thing)

We know that a KR needs to be broken in some way in order to attract Spren, so the spren can fill the break.  What if the spren do not actually fill the break but wedge it open which actually allows Odium access to exert influence over them.

Add on to this the idea that the more Stormlight is consumed, either 1) Honor becomes weaker, 2) Odium becomes stronger, or 3) Desolation comes sooner.  Maybe Surgebinding is not a zero sum equation, as opposed to the regular use of Stormlight (infusing gems, etc)

Now everyone has to question their motives for everything they do and have done.  The only way to prevent Odium from influencing you anymore is to stop using Stormlight altogether.  

In this light, the spren might see the "betrayal" as inevitable because at some point the surgebinders will realize what is happening and have to break the bond to prevent themselves from using Stormlight even subconsciously.  But if the spren are aware of this, they are not as innocent as it would seem or they are willfully self destructive/self sacrificing.

[Djerf he/him]

Didn't Sanderson confirm that the Desolations start once the Heralds break in damnation?

 

To me the Oathpact seams like a set of rules that all involved players had agreed to follow. The Oathpact regulates the amount, form and timing of the investiture any player can deploy, the most obvious way this works is that the Voidbringers (Odiumsprem) are only allowed during a Desolation.

One aspect of the Oathpact is its relative symmetry that becomes most apparent when considering the Heralds and their counterpart the Unmade, I think that we can agree that the Unmade suffer under the same restrictions as the Voidbringers in that they can only be active during a Desolation.

 

If my above statements are true would not the following make sense as well?

Mankind that dreads the Desolation has to make the choice to start it, while the enemy who craves the Desolation has to make the choice to end it?

 

Allowing for this model we have to ask ourselves what the symmetry, the counterbalance, is for Surgebinders during peacetime? That such symmetry existed is obvious for the following quote to make sense.

 

“In the past,” Jasnah said, “the Desolation—the coming of the Voidbringers—was supposedly always marked by a return of the Heralds to prepare mankind. They would train the Knights Radiant, who would experience a rush of new members.”

(Emphasis added by me) Words of Radiance – Brandon Sanderson pg 112.

 

Further I believe that it was within Odiums power to forbid peacetime Surgebinders when the Oathpact were made if he did not stand to gain anything on it.

 

I think that we can safely assume that neither Voidbringers nor Unmade gained anything on this arrangement and this leaves Odium without any tools to influence Roshar directly, that we know of.

 

The only other arena of relevance to this conflict that we know of is Damnation and the only point of conflict we know of there is the torture of the Heralds something that can only happen during peace.

 

I propose that all investiture of mankind beyond baseline is mirrored and used to enhance the torture, causing the Heralds to suffer more and break sooner.

The spren would have an understanding of this at least on some level and more importantly, being part of Honor and therefore part of the Oathpact they see no fault in it. The human part of the Nahel bond however WOULD find fault in this arrangement and would likely consider it a betrayal from the spren as well as a breach of the first oath.

 

The Recreance fulfills three functions, first and least as a punishment of the spren who so easily caused the suffering of another and their betrayal, secondly it was a way to ensure that the spren would not just bind new knights, lastly it left Plate and Blade in the hands of mankind to use against an eventual return of the enemy without investing them.

 

 

 

Edit: I somehow managed to post this long before I was finished so, edit to add.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Djerf

[ccgus]

HALO, actually.

 

Destiny!  The Guardians (aka, Knights Radiant) each have different classes ( aka, Orders) and subclasses within those, which they then level up in with experience (and you get awesome powers with each level up).  And you've even got your little ghost flying around with you, being your personal spren.

 

Now that I think about it more, it's quite apt.