Why The Knights Betrayed Their Spren

[kaellok he/him]

It took me a very long time to come up with a theory that explains the Recreance to my satisfaction; nothing that I have seen posited by others allays every concern that I have (and most just scream WRONG! to me).  It took a wild night of insomnia-fueled mania explaining something else entirely that I stumbled upon it, and it still seems a bit off, but here it is.  

 

 

Mistborn spoilers.  You have been warned.  Not big ones, though, really.  Although, also really.  But you need to read them for my theory to make sense.

1. We know from Mistborn that it's possible for Investiture to affect how people think.  It's also possible to give a great big burst of power to affect someone in a dramatic way.  (I'm talking Duralumin here.)
2. We also know that it's possible to literally control someone.  There are a few WoB that linked together help spell out a story.  Ruin was able to affect people on Scadrial because he helped create them, and so built in a few flaws for later exploitation.  Odium had nothing to do with the creation of any of the races on Roshar.  Odium was not originally (key word originally) responsible for any of the races on Roshar.  Odium has enough power invested in Roshar now that it would hurt a lot and diminish him a lot if he just left it there to go cruising around the Cosmere--which is why he doesn't.  Many of the races now have Listener blood in them.  Rock and his people do, and since red hair comes from them, that means so does Shallan.
3. It's not unreasonable to assume that Odium was at least partially responsible for this change, since having two separate races be able to breed would take god-level magic.  At least, I'm assuming that since Sanderson thinks physics is a thing, he also thinks biology is.  So Either Cultivation, Odium, or both were involved there.  And Odium stormed with the Listeners already, so he may have been able to work that weakness in even if Cultivation was responsible.
4. Ishi (Ishar? I forget the Herald's name.  The wise one) basically said, "Hey.  Surgebinders.  Swear the Oath or you die.  I'll kill you all myself."  They believed him.  
5. Honorblades suck in dangerous amounts of Stormlight.  Stormlight is investiture.  Investiture "amplifiers" exist in at least one system (again, Duralumin).  

 

The Recreance was caused by someone sucking in as much Stormlight as possible (during a Highstorm?) through an Honorblade, focusing it through an amplifier (that "wicked thing of imminence" and probably also the "secret" that destroyed the Radiants) and forced them all to abandon their Oaths.  Maybe not every Radiant at once; possibly only a couple hundred at a time.  Or there could have been more than one amplifier--and we know who had a lot of Honorblades.

 

Really, though, the "secret" is not going to be an actual, literal secret.  It won't be "Bobby is cheating on Suzie but don't tell anyone!" and when it's found out Suzie breaks up with him and then also breaks his nose.  The secret is going to be the Eleventh Metal.

 

Edit: Because apparently using won't end a spoiler tag for some reason.  An Admin should look into that.

Edited March 13, 2015 by kaellok

[Moogle]

...

 

Your explanation doesn't explain why the spren would think humans betrayed them. If they were all literally mind-controlled into betraying their oaths by an agent of Odium, the spren wouldn't blame humans, and the Stormfather certainly wouldn't go around telling Syl "HE'S GOING TO KILL YOU!".

[laxrulz777 he/him]

For reference, here's the relevant WoR quotes

 

Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of King Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.

WoR 35, 9

 

“Now as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which was hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.”

WoR, 38, 6

 

“That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.”

WoR, 38, 6

 

“The act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of their membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.”

WoR, 38, 20

 

So we know the Windrunners were "engaged" and that some "wicked thing of eminence" was discovered. Any theory needs to find some way to conform to that (unless and until we think the WoR is lying to us).

[Darkness he/him]

I'm kind of thinking the Unmade (splinters of Odium) became active just before the Recreance, and one of them has the ability to corrupt lesser spren. The greater spren (like the Stormfather) had enough investiture of Honor or Cultivation to remain themselves, but lesser radiantspren were vulnerable. 

“Now as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which was hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.”

WoR, 38, 6

 

“That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.”

WoR, 38, 6

I think the discovery of some wicked thing of eminence was either a black sphere (which may contain an unmade, or amplify unmade abilities), or the unmade itself. It caused the 'rogueries' among the Radiants' adherents (the first few radiants with corrupted spren went rogue). This caused the Knights to discover the secret that broke them (that their spren could be corrupted).

Tragically, the best defence they could ultimately decide on was to break their bonds rather than allow them to become corrupted. The honorspren specifically would agree to this, preferring to die rather than fact inevitable corruption; doing the honourable thing rather than become Odium's tool. I might suggest that the stoneware's would also be inclined to accept this course, being stubborn and valiant to the end.

All the talk of villainy and betrayal in current days is hearsay from people that didn't understand why the Knights abandoned them, and would only see the remaining Knights' evil (the only Knights to not ultimately undertake the Recreance would be the ones with corrupted spren, and the one order that did not disband - I suggest the Skybreakers,

given what Nale recruited Szeth to

).

As for those that were present at the Recreance, in Dalinar's vision, the soldiers had no idea what the Radiants were doing, and actually seemed scared the Radiants might attack for a moment (this is in keeping with groups of Radiants going rogue). The Stormfather has said it is inevitable that Syl will be killed by Kaladin. This also fits the scenario of inevitable corruption over time. Brandon has said it is a slow burn to shatter a Shard. I suggest it is the same with shatter splinters (like radiantspren), and the process takes time. Finally, as a bonus, I suggest that the Honorblades are a type of Splinter, or at the very least heavily invested (like Nightblood is heavily invested), and are also susceptible to corruption over time. However, because they contain more investiture than radiantspren, the process takes longer. The behaviour of the Heralds at present is due to Odium slowly corrupting the bond that the Heralds maintain with their Honorblades.

Ps. I just hashed this out ad nauseum, so please feel free to field me some questions and I'll try to fit more pieces in. While I'm not completely confident I'm right, I kind of like this angle, so I'm running with it for now.

[Honor's Radiance]

...

 

Most of this makes sense, I think--my only question is how the Stormfather fits into this. I'm willing to say most of the humans and even many of the spren currently around might believe the betrayal concept by hearsay (it's quite plausible, given how much time has passed since the Recreance), but we know the Stormfather was around when it happened, and further that he is enough analogous to an honorspren that I would assume he would be just as inclined to prefer death over inevitable corruption. What's your take on his role in the perception of the Recreance as a mass betrayal of the spren? 

[Darkness he/him]

Perhaps he believed there should have been another way... Or that the Knights should have fought to the death instead of killing their spren and walking away? I guess the most 'honourable' thing to do if you're planning some kind of ritual suicide (which the spren would be under this assumption) would be to take as many 'bad guys' out with you as possible. Maybe the Stormfather just couldn't bring himself to believe that the best choice would be so dishonourable as to leave his children's corpses in the hands of dishonourable men (after the Knights abandoned the Shardblades to be used by humanity, there was chaos until finally anyone holding a Shard had either killed to get it or killed to keep it). The Radiants might have thought they were giving humanity the best chance they had for survival by leaving the Shards to them, but it certainly could be seen as dishonourable, even while being useful.

Sorry, I actually meant to put the Stormfather into my original post. I was leading into it so well with "those that were present", and then I forgot

Anyway, what he saw was a factual mass betrayal of honour. The facts are that the Knights abandoned the fight, they killed their spren, and they left the carcasses to be taken up by dishonourable men. I think maybe the Stormfather's nature is too singular to value the intent above the drastic actions.

[dvoraen]

One of the things that I'm thinking, because everyone keeps focusing on THEY KILLED THEIR SPREN BUDDIES: remember how Syl's behavior seemed to degenerate rapidly towards near mindlessness?  I am willing to wager that almost every Order, by the time they renounced their Oaths, had slowly degenerated in their duties towards this point.  Syl more than hinted that this happened, I think, and between her comment and how she was slipping away are more than enough to suggest that the Nahel bonds were in disarray before everyone threw in the towel.

[hoser he/him]

One of the things that I'm thinking, because everyone keeps focusing on THEY KILLED THEIR SPREN BUDDIES: remember how Syl's behavior seemed to degenerate rapidly towards near mindlessness?  I am willing to wager that almost every Order, by the time they renounced their Oaths, had slowly degenerated in their duties towards this point.  Syl more than hinted that this happened, I think, and between her comment and how she was slipping away are more than enough to suggest that the Nahel bonds were in disarray before everyone threw in the towel.

And what would you wager?  Because I would take that bet in a heartbeat. 

 

The fact of the situation is that the Windrunners flew in, could summon their swords and were infusing.  When Syl was nearly mindless, Kaladin couldn't even infuse unless Syl was right with him.  So all the textual evidence seems to oppose the idea that the spren bonds were not functional.

 

As far as I know, there is no evidence supporting the notion that the Knights were corrupt before the Recreance.  It seems possible that they were charging more for transportation, but that could have been in line with their duties. 

 

Where did Syl hint that the Knights were not performing their duties? 

[natc]

Most of this makes sense, I think--my only question is how the Stormfather fits into this. I'm willing to say most of the humans and even many of the spren currently around might believe the betrayal concept by hearsay (it's quite plausible, given how much time has passed since the Recreance), but we know the Stormfather was around when it happened, and further that he is enough analogous to an honorspren that I would assume he would be just as inclined to prefer death over inevitable corruption. What's your take on his role in the perception of the Recreance as a mass betrayal of the spren?

For a cognitive shadow of Honor Stormfather isn't very honorable honestly (no pun intended). He did try to send a premature highstorm into the Everstorm head-on to nuke the shattered plains and all. Everything turned out at least better than he anticipated (even if it still isn't looking good) so he sort of gave up on protecting the people immediately.

On the other hand, it might be less betrayal on a personal level for spren-kind and more of a betrayal of the trust in humanity they displayed when granting them their power. The Listeners think the spren ditched them, so maybe the spren are mad that they gave humanity a shot and offered their lives to grant them power only to run into this inherent complication after all this time?

[dvoraen]

And what would you wager?  Because I would take that bet in a heartbeat. 

 

The fact of the situation is that the Windrunners flew in, could summon their swords and were infusing.  When Syl was nearly mindless, Kaladin couldn't even infuse unless Syl was right with him.  So all the textual evidence seems to oppose the idea that the spren bonds were not functional.

 

As far as I know, there is no evidence supporting the notion that the Knights were corrupt before the Recreance.  It seems possible that they were charging more for transportation, but that could have been in line with their duties. 

 

Where did Syl hint that the Knights were not performing their duties? 

She said that the Knights "changed".  That's not a comment I take lightly when it comes from an honorspren.  A mental or emotional change could easily distort what they were doing, and how.  The general idea might be the same, but the intent could make all the difference.  Hypothetically speaking, since it didn't exactly happen this way in the book, Kaladin could say he was 'protecting' Alethkar by allowing Elhokar to die, but it hardly qualifies as fulfilling his duties of sticking up for the defenseless and doing the honorable thing by trying to correct the real problem, which is Elhokar's lack of leadership skills.  He'd be protecting both Alethkar AND Elhokar there.

Edited March 15, 2015 by dvoraen

[Lirins hand]

Just had a thought about the Recreance, Oathgates, and overuse of Stormlight.

I have a feeling the Oathgates were not made to be the Interstate Highway system of Roshar but an emergency transport only, whether to (refugees) or from (surgebinders/KR) Urithuru and areas of conflict.

 

If the overuse of Stormlight causes some kind of imbalance, and the Oathgates are being used for daily travel, the "real" cost (not what the people pay but the effect it has on the planet/people/shard balance) may very well have been a contributing factor to the Recreance.  Multiple daily runs to all destinations would add up very quickly and could be the major cause of Stormlight overusage.  Perhaps the only way to prevent more Stormlight usage is to release all the bonds.

 

The reason to leave the shardblades?  So the people would have a way to defend themselves next Desolation.

Why not tell anyone?  Because surgebinders will be needed again next Desolation and telling the people what surgebinding leads to or can cause will lead to the new batch of surgebinders to be outcast, despised, hunted down - something worse than what leaving them in ignorance will do. (Do the Shin know what surgebinding causes and that is part of why they are in denial of Szeth's claims and send him away "Truthless"? {head buried firmly in sand})

[joesleepsalot he/him]

On 2/23/2015 at 0:37 PM, Aleksiel said:

Welcome to the forum! The Recreance is after the Last Desolation and according to a recent WoB  (that's short for word of Brandon) the Recreance is closer to present time than it to the Last Desolation. So I don't know if the KR had been fighting the Parshendi. At the very least there shouldn't have been any Voidbringers around and present day Parshendi are something normal soldiers can handle. Not worth breaking Oaths for in my opinion. According to the latter's legends of the Last Legion, the Parshendi chose to abandon their gods (and some forms apparently).  

Dalinar's first vision in Words of Radiance takes place at a time he couldn't identify.... he expressed a sense of unsurety towards Navani when explaining his vision. He and the knight were chasing an evil spren at the pure lake and it woke up a thunderclast. He specifically states that it could have been between desolations. This idea, as explained above, clearly seems to back up the general vibe of the arguments made above---- the more surgebinding is used, the more likely a desolation will happen. In light of Arcanum Unbounded where Nale explains this to his two minions plus Szeth, I think it's now perfectly clear. Nale can't be completely wrong, corrupted or not he's still a herald and would know what he's doing and why. 

[Darkness he/him]

This is so cool! It's my first time being proven about a crazy theory! I didn't guess how surgebinding led to desolations, but I totally guessed that Nalan believed increased surgebinding would allow odium to begin a desolation!

[Steeldancer he/him]

4 hours ago, Darkness said:

This is so cool! It's my first time being proven about a crazy theory! I didn't guess how surgebinding led to desolations, but I totally guessed that Nalan believed increased surgebinding would allow odium to begin a desolation!

But WHY? Realmatically, does anybody have any idea why surgebinding would cause a desolation?

[Darkness he/him]

I believe it creates some kind of a 'bridge', or connection for odiumspren to travel from Braize to Roshar.