Why The Knights Betrayed Their Spren

[Honor's Radiance]

As a side note, Nalan is not hunting the other Heralds to prevent the Desolations. They left their Honorblades. He is only hunting actively Surgebinding individuals. Szeth is not a threat because Szeth is not a Surgebinder without an Honorblade.

Also, the Knights Radiant could have been the Heralds' attempt at managing the use of Surgebinding, and making Surgebinders more efficient at using Stormlight, draining the Oathpact in safe, controlled levels. Nalan could have anticipated the eventually failure of the system, and thus been hesitant to sponsor an order. The Knights may have eventually realized that Odium's forces (like the stone-animating spren) were growing more powerful as there were more Knights/Surgebinders and initiated the Recreance as a means of countering the drain on Honor.

 

But presumably Szeth will get powers of some sort from Nalan and/or the sword Nalan gave him?

 

This theory makes some sense, although I wonder what you make of Odium's spren? Especially once the listeners go into stormform, which basically makes them Voidbringers (Has it been confirmed as fact that stormform = Voidbringers?). So presumably, that bond is similar enough to Surgebinding to have the same effect of draining Odium's power in the way that Surgebinding drains Honor's. Which, if true, would almost imply that the Desolations end themselves and you don't actually need anyone to stop them, which sort of defeats the purpose of the Heralds (though it might explain why the Radiants disappeared if they realized this and decided they didn't actually need to do anything).

 

We know that a KR needs to be broken in some way in order to attract Spren, so the spren can fill the break.  What if the spren do not actually fill the break but wedge it open which actually allows Odium access to exert influence over them.

 

True--it has been explicitly stated (on the back of WoR, I believe) that Surgebinding abilities can just as easily drive a wedge into the breaks within a person as it can fill them. But, that does imply that it isn't a necessary effect of Surgebinding that the fissures grow worse; maybe it depends on the person? Or perhaps the powers begin to take over, much in the way Shards take over, and it doesn't end up mattering.

[Patrick Star]

Destiny!  The Guardians (aka, Knights Radiant) each have different classes ( aka, Orders) and subclasses within those, which they then level up in with experience (and you get awesome powers with each level up).  And you've even got your little ghost flying around with you, being your personal spren.

 

Now that I think about it more, it's quite apt.

 

You underestimate the diversity of the Spartans.  Also, Mendicant Bias would be the perfect Stormfather analogue, and Cortana's as awesome as Syl (I'm not picking favorites).

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

Just to play Nalan's advocate here for a second.

I don't think I would believe what Nalan is doing as being spot on.

The order of things just doesn't seem correct right now. By that I mean we should have:

Odium arrives->Oathpact->Heralds come to Roshar->Desolation arrives->Spren imitate Heralds and grant surgebinding to humans

This according to Tanavast, that the spren copied the gift he had given the Heralds. To copy the gift, they would have to actually see the gift.

 

And if Surgebinding leads to Desolations, then why is he telling Dalinar in the visions to refound the Knights Radiant, as the only way to stand up to Odium?

 

As to if Surgebinding, leads to stronger Desolations (Kalak, in the TWoK Prelude, remarks on how Desolations were getting stronger as time progressed) it is a possibility.

 

And Nalan is selective into which surgebinders he chases. People who have criminal pasts it seems, but why not Jasnah who has assasinated many people? Or Shallan who killed her mother? Maybe there is a type of surgebinder that he thinks will lead into Desolation.

(Both Ym and Lift have the surge of regrowth, so maybe there is a connection there)

[natc]

Nalan doesn't kill surgebinders with criminal pasts specifically, but kills any surgebinders he could get to as legally as possible. He even brings paperwork on the job. As soon as Lift was pardoned he gave up.

If Shallan has been fine for so long the evidence has probably been destroyed thoroughly, and convicting the princess of Alethkar would similarly be a tad difficult. It doesn't matter if he knows, he needs solid proof to be authorized to capture and execute someone on site.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

Nalan doesn't kill surgebinders with criminal pasts specifically, but kills any surgebinders he could get to as legally as possible. He even brings paperwork on the job. As soon as Lift was pardoned he gave up.

If Shallan has been fine for so long the evidence has probably been destroyed thoroughly, and convicting the princess of Alethkar would similarly be a tad difficult. It doesn't matter if he knows, he needs solid proof to be authorized to capture and execute someone on site.

Point granted. It just seemed to me that killing Ym in an alley wasn't very lawman-like. Maybe Iri has different laws.

Given that Nalan can somehow sense surgebinding, why wouldn't he have looked into Shallan, Kaladin and Jasnah's backstories? Or has he? I mean he's near the Shattered Plains, and he doesn't look them up?

[natc]

THe probably could, but he needs to convince the local government that he should be authorized to hunt down and execute one of the highest ranking people in said government, someone engaged to and under protection of another such person, and the body guard of yet a third important person. May be a bit difficult to pull off here, especially since they are in war against non-humans. If it was a human vs human war he could let someone be recruited on the opposing side and kill them in battle legally but that's out of the question here.

It probably is legal though. Taking action without being authorized by the very people he needs killed sadly isn't very legal.

[Darkness he/him]

Re: To everyone addressing my post.

I'm going to try to address these excellent points with as little hand-wavery as possible (caveat: we are dealing with Nalan, who is almost certainly thinking irrationally in one way or another).

 

But presumably Szeth will get powers of some sort from Nalan and/or the sword Nalan gave him?

Nightblood himself has some rudimentary 'quirks' that could be interpreted as abilities (draining investiture, mind speaking, etc.), and he will probably function with Szeth in some capacity of bonding, but we know so little about how. I wouldn't presume to say Szeth will suddenly be able to inhale Stormlight and Surgebind. After all,

Vasher wasn't suddenly able to inhale Breaths through Nightblood

and I don't think Nalan by himself can grant any powers. I don't think Nalan would see giving Nightblood to Szeth as contradictory to his goals. Also, by the end of Words of Radiance, he has heard about the void bringers returning, and it's possible that he knows Szeth will need the firepower.

 

This theory makes some sense, although I wonder what you make of Odium's spren? Especially once the listeners go into stormform, which basically makes them Voidbringers (Has it been confirmed as fact that stormform = Voidbringers?). So presumably, that bond is similar enough to Surgebinding to have the same effect of draining Odium's power in the way that Surgebinding drains Honor's. Which, if true, would almost imply that the Desolations end themselves and you don't actually need anyone to stop them, which sort of defeats the purpose of the Heralds (though it might explain why the Radiants disappeared if they realized this and decided they didn't actually need to do anything).

 

Odium's spren weren't around until after Odium had been around Roshar for awhile. As per WoB, Odium doesn't like investing himself into a particular world, and he's done it on Roshar partially because he's been trapped in the system for so long and couldn't prevent the natural leak of power.

Accordingly, I believe the Oathpact to have been made after Odium started trying to wipe Roshar clean, but before Odium was significantly invested in the world. When the Oathpact was formed (and the Heralds called), it could have been a way to temper Odium's relentless attacks on Roshar, and the initial desolations didn't end themselves, but now the game has changed a little. I would agree that void binding and especially the Everstorm would draw power away from the main body of Odium.

 

I don't think I would believe what Nalan is doing as being spot on.

The order of things just doesn't seem correct right now. By that I mean we should have:

Odium arrives->Oathpact->Heralds come to Roshar->Desolation arrives->Spren imitate Heralds and grant surgebinding to humans

This according to Tanavast, that the spren copied the gift he had given the Heralds. To copy the gift, they would have to actually see the gift.

 

And if Surgebinding leads to Desolations, then why is he telling Dalinar in the visions to refound the Knights Radiant, as the only way to stand up to Odium?

 

As to if Surgebinding, leads to stronger Desolations (Kalak, in the TWoK Prelude, remarks on how Desolations were getting stronger as time progressed) it is a possibility.

 

And Nalan is selective into which surgebinders he chases. People who have criminal pasts it seems, but why not Jasnah who has assasinated many people? Or Shallan who killed her mother? Maybe there is a type of surgebinder that he thinks will lead into Desolation.

(Both Ym and Lift have the surge of regrowth, so maybe there is a connection there)

 

The spren would have ample opportunity to see Herald-Surgebinding in action if Odium was attacking Roshar before the Oathpact was made. That point depends a lot on the time frame of these events. If Honor set up the Oathpact in response to Odium, that means that Odium was likely already trying to take out Roshar (or the Tranquiline Halls ), and the Heralds could have been fighting with Honorblades even before the Oathpact defined 'Desolations'.

 

To your point about the visions:

Again, the game has changed. Tanavast sent that message to broadcast on the event of his death. The Oathpact was failing, Honor was dying, and he had to be getting desperate. He actually refined his message a bit when he said something to the effect of, "I can't see into the future as well as Cultivation can, but you may be able to succeed if you get Odium to appoint a champion, and then defeat the champion."

So Honor was probably planning a last stand scenario. A prolonged war would favour Odium since Honor is dead, and so the best option would be a show of force (Knights Radiant) to manoeuvre Odium into appointing a champion. Odium, for his part, probably wants to be done with Roshar once and for all, since he hates investing portions of himself, and wants to regather himself, so he may take the bait to hurry the pace of the game a bit. I see Honor risking it all by re-founding the Knights Radiant as part of a post-humous last-ditch effort.

 

The Jasnah and Shallan points were addressed, though I would add that Jasnah had the entire world fooled (with the partial exception of Taravangian - he had to see Jasnah soulcasting to know for sure... even with his diagram he only had a suspicion).

[galendo]

I'll give you the best explanation I've been able to come up with for why the knights betrayed their spren, and similar surrounding mysteries.  A lot of it is speculation, and with speculation on this magnitude, some of it -- likely most of it -- is almost certainly wrong.  That said, you guys all seem to like speculation, and it all seems to hang together reasonably well, at least in my mind.  I kind of hope Brandon has something better planned, but if I were him, these are the reasons I'd use:

Main question: Why did the K.R. abandon their oaths?

Potential answer: The K.R. patterned themselves on the Heralds, who they considered some sort of demigods.  Upon discovering that the Heralds had actually abandoned their oaths, leaving their blades behind, the K.R. followed in their footsteps and also abandoned their oaths, leaving their blades behind.  Basically, they're just doing what the Heralds did -- isn't that what a good Knight Radiant is supposed to do?  Surely the Heralds must have had a good reason for it.

I think this answer could work.  That being said, if I were writing the books, the above answer would be the reason that I'd have the characters come up with first (after all, we know the ex-Heralds are still running around; the characters are likely to discover this sooner rather than later.  Szeth and the reader already know, so there's no real use in keeping it secret from Kaladin et al.  My money's on around the two-thirds point of the next book), but it wouldn't be the true answer.  It makes enough sense to be believable to both the reader and the characters, I think, but 1) Brandon seems to like a good twist, and 2) it doesn't explain...

Question: Why did the Knights Radiant become corrupt?  We know, for instance, that they became greedy and started charging usurious tolls to use their portals.  But why?  Aren't the K.R. supposed to be ultra-honorable?

A: My best guess?  Passage of time, mostly, and power attracting people willing to jump through hoops for it.  The original K.R. would have been moral people, much like the batch of upcoming K.R. in the present day.  But as time goes on, and as it becomes widely known that in order to gain super powers you have to follow a particular moral code, you get people following the code not because it's the right thing to do, but because they want super powers.

Theory: The K.R. of the Recreance aren't particularly moral people, they're people who've learned how to game the system.

This observation/theory seems to invalidate the previous answer to the main question.  If the K.R. at the time of the Recreance were only in it for the powers, they wouldn't be likely to surrender them because of some sort of crisis of faith or idealistic and slavish adherance to the actions of their demigods.  If corrupt K.R. are to abandon their oaths, it must be for some more personal advantage.

Observation:  Perhaps because of the foibles of being human, perhaps just as a natural effect of the Nahel bond, one seems to be required to keep swearing oaths/progressing the bond in order for the bond to remain intact.  We've seen in Kaladin's case both how easy the bond can be to break and how swearing a new oath can fix the bond after a past transgression.

Question: Are there really only five oaths?  Ten seems to be the magic number for this series.  Just sayin'.

Speculation: There are more than five K.R. oaths.

Taking the above speculation as fact (not because I have any real evidence that Brandon is thinking the same way, just because it's likely what I would do if I were him, and because it seems like a reasonable twist for the series.  There are ten books, after all), what would be the effects of swearing more oaths?  I don't have the quote handy, but someone -- I think it's Syl -- explains that the Nahel bond and the Shardblades were a result of the spren imitating what Honor had done with the Oathpact.  The reason that the spren form Shardblades is because they're imitating the Honorblades.  The bond itself is imitating the Oathpact.  The bond gets stronger the more oaths you swear.  Ergo...

Even wilder speculation: Swear a few oaths, and your spren becomes a Shardblade.  Swear a few more, and your Shardblade becomes an Honorblade.  Congratulations, you've just joined the Oathpact!

Oh, and as a

Corollary: Congratulations, when you die, you get to spend thousands of years being tormented!  In an agony so great it eventually broke even the wills of your heroic demigods!  That's your prize for being such a good Knight Radiant for so long!  Well, it's either that or abandon your oaths...

Main question: Why did the K.R. abandon their oaths?

Actual answer: Because the alternative was holding to them and suffering near-endless torture at Odium's hand.  And as previously mentioned, the K.R. of the Recreance weren't exactly the most noble and self-sacrificing of souls.

Anyway, that's what I've got on the topic.  I almost think I should start a new thread for the idea, since it's in some ways a bunch of different theories rolled into one (and I have more theories that could play off this one; I'm half-convinced that Brandon intends to do a character resurrection thing later on, and the Oathpact provides the perfect vehicle to do it with), but it seems to fit well enough in this one, so I'll leave it here for now.  Let me know if there are any glaring holes in my logic.

[hoser he/him]

Wow!  What an amazing set of theories. 

• Kaladin can act as a Windrunner at two oaths.  Presumably he can do more at five oaths.  And then at ten oaths, his blade makes it so that he can act as a Windrunner (which he could do already), but use stormlight less efficiently?  Color me confused.
• The Knights became corrupted and were only pretending to be moral so they could get some amazing advantages.  They are so corrupted that when they learn of something, they abandon their advantages and allow themselves to be slaughtered.  Color me more confused.
• If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts.  The knights somehow get sucked into the Oathpact so they have to return to Braize also.  The knights stick around for millenia after the last desolation and no new Desolation happens.  Color me totally confused. 

Edit:  I just noticed that this was your first post.  Please accept my apologies.  The tone of this post seems wrong as a response to a first post.  While I do find the theories confusing, the above seems harsher than I want it to be.  Welcome! Please forgive me.  I can only provide 1 upvote, but if I could give two, I would give one as a welcome and another as an apology. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by hoser

[natc]

Well, honorblades are presumably supposed to be more powerful as large-ish splinters of Honor, or the Heralds would be useless, yet they are always in charge.

We just don't know how they are more useful than spren.

But yeah color me confused.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

Good job on your first post.

 

Theory: The K.R. of the Recreance aren't particularly moral people, they're people who've learned how to game the system.

 

We've seen Tyn gather anger spren when she was acting out being angry, so it is possible to trick emotional spren. But tricking spren like Honourspren or Cryptics? Might be tough due to the restrictions Ishar has placed on the nahel Bond. Or else, we would have probably seen Amaram attract one long time ago, since he was viewed as one of the most honourable lighteyes.

[Darkness he/him]

Good job on your first post.

 

 

We've seen Tyn gather anger spren when she was acting out being angry, so it is possible to trick emotional spren. But tricking spren like Honourspren or Cryptics? Might be tough due to the restrictions Ishar has placed on the nahel Bond. Or else, we would have probably seen Amaram attract one long time ago, since he was viewed as one of the most honourable lighteyes.

Other spren are not so discerning as Honorspren

[Moogle]

Other spren are not so discerning as Honorspren

 

In which case the Windrunners shouldn't have been part of the Recreance, going by the theory.

[Darkness he/him]

Yep. That's a bit of a hole in the theory. I personally maintain that the Recreance was agreed upon by the spren and was seen by both spren and men as necessary. Otherwise I don't get why the spren would obediently stay in Shardblade-form while their Radiants left them. I mean, the bond (or at least the glowiness) was still active right up until the Radiants walked away, so I wouldn't say the oaths were broken purposefully, and not by accidental fudging or disobeying of ideals.

[natc]

Yep. That's a bit of a hole in the theory. I personally maintain that the Recreance was agreed upon by the spren and was seen by both spren and men as necessary. Otherwise I don't get why the spren would obediently stay in Shardblade-form while their Radiants left them. I mean, the bond (or at least the glowiness) was still active right up until the Radiants walked away, so I wouldn't say the oaths were broken purposefully, and not by accidental fudging or disobeying of ideals.

Also would add another layer to Stormfather's seeming "distrust" of humans. He survived the Recreance, so he probably knows the reason for it, and Pattern also seems convinced that he is screwed, so likely the few survivors have explained it to the others as well.

If the secret is really that big and devastating, Stormfather and the spren might not actually be distrustful of humans. Maybe the spren know they will die because there is no other choice.

[galendo]

Wow!  What an amazing set of theories.

...

Edit:  I just noticed that this was your first post.  Please accept my apologies.  The tone of this post seems wrong as a response to a first post.  While I do find the theories confusing, the above seems harsher than I want it to be.  Welcome! Please forgive me.  I can only provide 1 upvote, but if I could give two, I would give one as a welcome and another as an apology. 

Hey, no appologies necessary.  I asked for critiques, and I'm happy to have them.  It'd probably be boring here if we all just agreed politely with each other.  But now I'll try to respond to your points:

• Kaladin can act as a Windrunner at two oaths.  Presumably he can do more at five oaths.  And then at ten oaths, his blade makes it so that he can act as a Windrunner (which he could do already), but use stormlight less efficiently?  Color me confused.

No, at ten oaths (or however many are required), his blade makes it so that anyone he gives it to can act as a Windrunner.  It's like when Kaladin used Shallan's blade, he didn't get the Radiant abilities -- presumably he would have at least habitually sucked in stormlight if he'd been able to at the time.  Sure, whoever he loans Syl to wouldn't be as good as an actual Radiant, but it's a big step above just giving someone a regular shardblade.  And it's not like Kaladin would be any worse a Radiant as a result.

• The Knights became corrupted and were only pretending to be moral so they could get some amazing advantages.  They are so corrupted that when they learn of something, they abandon their advantages and allow themselves to be slaughtered.  Color me more confused.

Maybe I didn't explain this very well.  Here's a fairly representative example:  I'm reasonably law-abiding, but not slavishly so.  I jaywalk at times, and I sometimes speed on the freeway.  But if someone told me tomorrow that I could join the Skybreakers, learn to fly, heal instantly from wounds, etc., and all I had to do was never ever break a law, you can bet that I'd instamtly become the most law-abiding citizen you ever saw in your entire life.  But then say I join the Skybreakers and later find out that the catch is that when I die I get to burn in hell for eternity.  I'd quit the order the very same day.

I posit that the Recreance-age Radiants were mostly people like me.  Regular people.  Not bad people, necessarily, though I'm sure they'd have quite a few bad apples as well -- but definitely not the sort of hyper-honorable people who're immune to graft and who'd stick around even if it meant eternal suffering as a result.

• If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts.  The knights somehow get sucked into the Oathpact so they have to return to Braize also.  The knights stick around for millenia after the last desolation and no new Desolation happens.  Color me totally confused.

Braize is the place of torment?  Well, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but I'm also not sure that I agree with the statement "If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts."  For one, had that been the case, it seems that there wouldn't have been the huge Desolation-free period between the Heralds abandoning their oaths thousands of years ago and the present-day Desolation.  For another, there's a line from the Diagram stating "Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon" which indicates to me that the people trying to stop the Desolation by killing the K.R. are misguided.

 

Good job on your first post.

 

 

We've seen Tyn gather anger spren when she was acting out being angry, so it is possible to trick emotional spren. But tricking spren like Honourspren or Cryptics? Might be tough due to the restrictions Ishar has placed on the nahel Bond. Or else, we would have probably seen Amaram attract one long time ago, since he was viewed as one of the most honourable lighteyes.

As above, thanks for the welcome and the compliment.  I'm not aware of any restrictions placed on the Nahel bond.  Ishar was a Herald, so I'm not sure how he'd get to place restrictions on it anyway...I can't really say much about that.  But as to why Amaram didn't attract a spren, I'd say that it's because he focuses on appearing honorable, not actually being honorable.  He focuses on having been seen to follow the law and having been seen to keep his word, but he breaks both the law and his word at will, provided he can get away with it.  But the spren watch completely unseen, for the most part, so no Skybreakers or Windrunners for Amaram.  The spren would see even the actions he keeps hidden from men and reject him as a result.

[hoser he/him]

I appreciate your graceful acceptance of my boorishness.  I see what you are saying now.  The Honorblade level-up for Radiants would make the Shardblades convey the Radiant powers to any wielder, not just the Radiant in question.  

Hey, no appologies necessary.  I asked for critiques, and I'm happy to have them.  It'd probably be boring here if we all just agreed politely with each other. 

...

• If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts.  The knights somehow get sucked into the Oathpact so they have to return to Braize also.  The knights stick around for millenia after the last desolation and no new Desolation happens.  Color me totally confused.

Braize is the place of torment?  Well, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but I'm also not sure that I agree with the statement "If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts."  For one, had that been the case, it seems that there wouldn't have been the huge Desolation-free period between the Heralds abandoning their oaths thousands of years ago and the present-day Desolation.  For another, there's a line from the Diagram stating "Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon" which indicates to me that the people trying to stop the Desolation by killing the K.R. are misguided.

I was apparently badly paraphrasing the quote in this post that I believe is from an interview with Brandon Sanderson (locally known as WoB).  Apparently, only Taln had to go back to Braize in order to hold the desolations off. Taln was known for his stubbornness, so he might have held out for an unbelievably long time.  There is also a quote from the Diagram about the Ancient of Stone holding off the Desolations.  Taln's order were known as the Stonewards. 

 

As above,...I'm not aware of any restrictions placed on the Nahel bond.  Ishar was a Herald, so I'm not sure how he'd get to place restrictions on it anyway...I can't really say much about that.  ...

Ishar was the Herald corresponding to the bondsmiths.  Bondsmiths seem to have at least some influence over spren bonds.  In tWoK Nohadon complains about surgebinders acting unconstructively, implying to some that there were surgebinders for a time before there were Radiants. Based on a chapter epigraph quoting the in-world Words of Radiance, some believe that Ishar was involved in the oaths and limitations (as we saw when Kaladin temporarily killed Syl) that kept the Radiants from being as chaotic as the precursor Surgebinders. 

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

As above, thanks for the welcome and the compliment.  I'm not aware of any restrictions placed on the Nahel bond.  Ishar was a Herald, so I'm not sure how he'd get to place restrictions on it anyway...I can't really say much about that.  But as to why Amaram didn't attract a spren, I'd say that it's because he focuses on appearing honorable, not actually being honorable.  He focuses on having been seen to follow the law and having been seen to keep his word, but he breaks both the law and his word at will, provided he can get away with it.  But the spren watch completely unseen, for the most part, so no Skybreakers or Windrunners for Amaram.  The spren would see even the actions he keeps hidden from men and reject him as a result.

 

Here is the relevant paragraph where it is mentioned about Ishar (WoR, Epigraph of Chapter 42):

But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

 

As for the Amaram example, I assumed when you said that the K.R at the time of the Recreance were gaming the system, I assumed you meant that they tricked the spren into granting them surges by acting/pretending to be moral. Coupled with what Ishar did to bind the K.R. and spren, I don't see any other way to game the system except by tricking the spren. 

What did you have in mind?

Edited February 27, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[Djerf he/him]

If we assume that galendo are on to something I have a correction.

The Radiant powers appears to come from the Radiant-Spren bond, the Nahel bond, a symbiotic fusion of two sentient entitys on a spiritual level, akin to the bond between parent to child, sibling to sibling, lover to lover. The Idea that you would "lend" this bond to someone makes me uncomfortable.

I do like the idea that Honorblades and potentially post Radiant Ideals are able to grant surgebinding to others. However we do have an established mechanism for kind of power granting between humans already in the Squire bond, and I believe that it will be more fruitful to consider how an amped up version of that would work.

[galendo]

There is also a quote from the Diagram about the Ancient of Stone holding off the Desolations.  Taln's order were known as the Stonewards.

You know, that line makes a lot more sense if one assumes that Talenal is the Ancient of Stone referred to.  I had figured it refered to some as-yet-unintroduced spren, but it makes a lot more sense if it refers to the Herald.

 

That said, I don't see how it would contradict my "theory" (I put the word in quotes because I figure it's more likely to be false than true; but it's still the best explanation I have currently).  There has been hundreds if not thousands of years since the K.R. disappeared.  Even if some of them had gone to Braise/the torment place and taken some of the heat off of Talenal, there's been plenty of time elapsed for the whole lot of them to be broken in the interim.

Ishar was the Herald corresponding to the bondsmiths.  Bondsmiths seem to have at least some influence over spren bonds.  In tWoK Nohadon complains about surgebinders acting unconstructively, implying to some that there were surgebinders for a time before there were Radiants. Based on a chapter epigraph quoting the in-world Words of Radiance, some believe that Ishar was involved in the oaths and limitations (as we saw when Kaladin temporarily killed Syl) that kept the Radiants from being as chaotic as the precursor Surgebinders.

Well, it would make some sense for Bondsmiths to be able to affect the spren bond, since 1) the name itself can be taken to imply something of that nature, 2) it would explain how the parshmen were trapped in dullform, and 3) the Stormfather seems to have some (rather limited) sort of power to determine whether an oath is acceptable or not.  I wouldn't exactly call it a preponderance of evidence, though.

 

As for the Amaram example, I assumed when you said that the K.R at the time of the Recreance were gaming the system, I assumed you meant that they tricked the spren into granting them surges by acting/pretending to be moral. Coupled with what Ishar did to bind the K.R. and spren, I don't see any other way to game the system except by tricking the spren. 

What did you have in mind?

Not so much tricking the spren, as doing what the spren want for less-than-noble reasons.  Like someone might follow the law in order to join the Skybreakers.  He's actually following the law, so his spren is happy.  But the reason he's following the law isn't because he thinks that following the law is the right thing to do, it's because he wants to be a Skybreaker.  He's doing it for selfish reasons.

The result would be a group of K.R. who don't care so much about doing the right thing as they do about keeping their spren satisfied.  They're in it for themselves, not for some greater good.

 

The Radiant powers appears to come from the Radiant-Spren bond, the Nahel bond, a symbiotic fusion of two sentient entitys on a spiritual level, akin to the bond between parent to child, sibling to sibling, lover to lover. The Idea that you would "lend" this bond to someone makes me uncomfortable.

I wouldn't think it would be lending the bond.  It's just lending the Shardblade.  It's not any different or any more intimate than when Shallan lent her sword to Kaladin -- Pattern was still 100% bonded to Shallan.  The Oathblades can just do a bit more for their wielder than Shardblades can.

[Honor's Radiance]

Odium's spren weren't around until after Odium had been around Roshar for awhile. As per WoB, Odium doesn't like investing himself into a particular world, and he's done it on Roshar partially because he's been trapped in the system for so long and couldn't prevent the natural leak of power.

Accordingly, I believe the Oathpact to have been made after Odium started trying to wipe Roshar clean, but before Odium was significantly invested in the world. When the Oathpact was formed (and the Heralds called), it could have been a way to temper Odium's relentless attacks on Roshar, and the initial desolations didn't end themselves, but now the game has changed a little. I would agree that void binding and especially the Everstorm would draw power away from the main body of Odium.

 

...

 

To your point about the visions:

Again, the game has changed. Tanavast sent that message to broadcast on the event of his death. The Oathpact was failing, Honor was dying, and he had to be getting desperate. He actually refined his message a bit when he said something to the effect of, "I can't see into the future as well as Cultivation can, but you may be able to succeed if you get Odium to appoint a champion, and then defeat the champion."

So Honor was probably planning a last stand scenario. A prolonged war would favour Odium since Honor is dead, and so the best option would be a show of force (Knights Radiant) to manoeuvre Odium into appointing a champion. Odium, for his part, probably wants to be done with Roshar once and for all, since he hates investing portions of himself, and wants to regather himself, so he may take the bait to hurry the pace of the game a bit. I see Honor risking it all by re-founding the Knights Radiant as part of a post-humous last-ditch effort.

 

This makes a lot of sense, I think. (And I do wonder if, as you mentioned, Odium might be in this for the Tranquiline Halls as much as any of the worlds.)

 

Main question: Why did the K.R. abandon their oaths?

Potential answer: The K.R. patterned themselves on the Heralds, who they considered some sort of demigods.  Upon discovering that the Heralds had actually abandoned their oaths, leaving their blades behind, the K.R. followed in their footsteps and also abandoned their oaths, leaving their blades behind.  Basically, they're just doing what the Heralds did -- isn't that what a good Knight Radiant is supposed to do?  Surely the Heralds must have had a good reason for it.

..

Question: Why did the Knights Radiant become corrupt?  We know, for instance, that they became greedy and started charging usurious tolls to use their portals.  But why?  Aren't the K.R. supposed to be ultra-honorable?

A: My best guess?  Passage of time, mostly, and power attracting people willing to jump through hoops for it.  The original K.R. would have been moral people, much like the batch of upcoming K.R. in the present day.  But as time goes on, and as it becomes widely known that in order to gain super powers you have to follow a particular moral code, you get people following the code not because it's the right thing to do, but because they want super powers.

...

Question: Are there really only five oaths?  Ten seems to be the magic number for this series.  Just sayin'.

...

Even wilder speculation: Swear a few oaths, and your spren becomes a Shardblade.  Swear a few more, and your Shardblade becomes an Honorblade.  Congratulations, you've just joined the Oathpact!

 

This is an interesting theory, and I think a fair amount of it makes some sense. My first reaction to the KR leaving their blades behind was noticing the echo of the Heralds' breaking the Oathpact. I'm not sure if it's as conscious as what you're proposing, but I do agree that there's probably an element of that at least subconsciously, or within the natural cycles of history.

 

My first question--and maybe this has been answered somewhere in WoB that I haven't read yet--is which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do the spren locate people who have innate potential to become Surgebinders and actualize those powers through the Nahel bond, or do they choose people somewhat at a whim and turn them into Surgebinders? Because the impression I got from Syl speaking of Kaladin was much closer to the former. So, in response to your second question quoted above, would just anyone really be able to act moral for the sake of superpowers? Or are you suggesting more that potential Radiants may have started out moral for the sake of morality, but eventually focused entirely on the superpowers? I wonder what the spren's role in this process would have been. I find it difficult to imagine that not a single spren would have noticed the shift in their Knight's motives, especially not the honorspren; we have evidence of Syl noticing shifts in Kaladin's motives, after all.

 

I'm not sure the Shardblade-->Honorblade development necessarily follows, but I do love the idea that there are more oaths. You're right--ten is far more prevalent in the series, and more to the point, it would make for an excellent way to redeem the KR and not fall into the same pattern of behavior that led to the Recreance if the original KR had had still more Oaths that they neglected that the new KR actually do speak.

 

Not so much tricking the spren, as doing what the spren want for less-than-noble reasons.  Like someone might follow the law in order to join the Skybreakers.  He's actually following the law, so his spren is happy.  But the reason he's following the law isn't because he thinks that following the law is the right thing to do, it's because he wants to be a Skybreaker.  He's doing it for selfish reasons.

The result would be a group of K.R. who don't care so much about doing the right thing as they do about keeping their spren satisfied.  They're in it for themselves, not for some greater good.

 

I could see this happening with some of the orders, but I have a lot of trouble thinking this would apply to, for instance, the Windrunners. Do you think enough other Radiants started to fall that eventually they dragged the Windrunners into their plan? I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which the Windrunners would not have had to be explicitly dishonourable prior to the Recreance moment itself, thus breaking their oaths and killing their spren before they could plant their Blades in the ground with the rest of the Knights'.

[Patrick Star]

Also would add another layer to Stormfather's seeming "distrust" of humans. He survived the Recreance, so he probably knows the reason for it, and Pattern also seems convinced that he is screwed, so likely the few survivors have explained it to the others as well.

If the secret is really that big and devastating, Stormfather and the spren might not actually be distrustful of humans. Maybe the spren know they will die because there is no other choice.

 

I think the issue here is whether they are upset because humans will kill them, or because they have to die.  The first indicates betrayal.  The second indicates a mutually agreed eventuality.

[hoser he/him]

I took issue with what seemed like more obvious issues before, but seeing this quoted, I am reminded of my concerns.

I'll give you the best explanation ...

Question: Why did the Knights Radiant become corrupt?  We know, for instance, that they became greedy and started charging usurious tolls to use their portals.  But why?  Aren't the K.R. supposed to be ultra-honorable?

A: My best guess?  Passage of time, mostly, and power attracting people willing to jump through hoops for it.  The original K.R. would have been moral people, much like the batch of upcoming K.R. in the present day.  But as time goes on, and as it becomes widely known that in order to gain super powers you have to follow a particular moral code, you get people following the code not because it's the right thing to do, but because they want super powers.

I disagree with the premise here. 

We have a quote from a whiny rich person about a luxury he consumes costing more.  His mission was by no means necessary, nor was he required to use the Oathgates, except for his convenience.  I suspect, though I am not certain, that the costs of using the Oathgates may have risen for the likes of that complainer.  So far, all the evidence I have seen pointing to Radiant corruption is bald assertion from unreliable sources.  I am not aware of any on-screen corrupt actions by Radiants.  The Recreance, the largest reason for claiming the Radiants were corrupt, does not seem to have benefited the supposed corrupt individuals nearly as much as remaining Radiant would have.  So, for me, the Recreance is evidence against Radiant corruption. 

[galendo]

My first question--and maybe this has been answered somewhere in WoB that I haven't read yet--is which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do the spren locate people who have innate potential to become Surgebinders and actualize those powers through the Nahel bond, or do they choose people somewhat at a whim and turn them into Surgebinders? Because the impression I got from Syl speaking of Kaladin was much closer to the former. So, in response to your second question quoted above, would just anyone really be able to act moral for the sake of superpowers? Or are you suggesting more that potential Radiants may have started out moral for the sake of morality, but eventually focused entirely on the superpowers? I wonder what the spren's role in this process would have been. I find it difficult to imagine that not a single spren would have noticed the shift in their Knight's motives, especially not the honorspren; we have evidence of Syl noticing shifts in Kaladin's motives, after all.

 

I got the impression that the spren were looking out for people doing what they want to see happen.  Like Windrunner spren would look out for people who keep their word, for instance, and Skybreaker spren would look for people who follow the laws.  But the spren don't read minds.  They judge only by actions.  As long as someone always followed the laws, regardless of the reason that he did so, he'd attract the appropriate spren.

I'm arguing that the first Radiants would have had good reasons (following the laws because it's the right thing to do, keeping their word because it's the right thing to do) but that later Radiants might not have (following the laws so they can get superpowers, keeping their word so they can get superpowers).

The spren wouldn't have noticed a shift in their Knights' motives because there wouldn't have been a shift in motives to notice, and again, as far as I'm aware the spren can't actually read minds.

 

I'm not sure the Shardblade-->Honorblade development necessarily follows, but I do love the idea that there are more oaths. You're right--ten is far more prevalent in the series, and more to the point, it would make for an excellent way to redeem the KR and not fall into the same pattern of behavior that led to the Recreance if the original KR had had still more Oaths that they neglected that the new KR actually do speak.

There are also ten books, and so far Brandon's been burning through the oaths at about 1.33 per book (judging by Kaladin, who along with Dalinar's the only person we've seen start from zero oaths).  Considering that most of the "awesomeness" of a Knight swearing a new oath is used up when the first one does (no one's going to be very awed when Renarin swears another oath or two and gets a glowing Shardblade.  We've seen Kaladin do it already, so we don't need to see it again), and the five we're promised now are barely going to last us through the first five books, I suspect we'll see more oaths.

It's similar to the situation with Mistborn.  Sixteen metals (or fourteen, or however many were actually covered in the first trilogy) were enough for the first few books, but more were required to keep up novelty in the next books.  Novelty will be required here as well, and more oaths is an easy thing to mine for it.

 

 

We have a quote from a whiny rich person about a luxury he consumes costing more.  His mission was by no means necessary, nor was he required to use the Oathgates, except for his convenience.  I suspect, though I am not certain, that the costs of using the Oathgates may have risen for the likes of that complainer.  So far, all the evidence I have seen pointing to Radiant corruption is bald assertion from unreliable sources.  I am not aware of any on-screen corrupt actions by Radiants.  The Recreance, the largest reason for claiming the Radiants were corrupt, does not seem to have benefited the supposed corrupt individuals nearly as much as remaining Radiant would have.  So, for me, the Recreance is evidence against Radiant corruption. 

 

You know, that's a good point.  I seem to remember more sources than just a single complaint about the cost of travel through oathgates, but I'd have to do a re-read to be sure.  The source may not have been reliable.  Then again, we're not likely to get any on-screen actions of Recreance-era Radiants, corrupt or otherwise, either.  Dalinar's visions were our only completely reliable glimpse into the past, and it doesn't look like he's getting any more of them.

 

On the other hand, even if the complainer were just a whiney rich person, that still doesn't really excuse the increased costs.  I mean, these gates can transport thousands of people at once.  The cost in time to the Radiants is effectively the same no matter how many people want to use the gates, and the cost in stormlight on a per-person or per-pound basis is presumably fixed as well.  Given any sort of reasonable transportation schedule between gates, I can't see much of a reason for increasing the cost.

[hoser he/him]

I got ...

 

You know, that's a good point.  I seem to remember more sources than just a single complaint about the cost of travel through oathgates, but I'd have to do a re-read to be sure.  The source may not have been reliable.  Then again, we're not likely to get any on-screen actions of Recreance-era Radiants, corrupt or otherwise, either.  Dalinar's visions were our only completely reliable glimpse into the past, and it doesn't look like he's getting any more of them.

 

On the other hand, even if the complainer were just a whiney rich person, that still doesn't really excuse the increased costs.  I mean, these gates can transport thousands of people at once.  The cost in time to the Radiants is effectively the same no matter how many people want to use the gates, and the cost in stormlight on a per-person or per-pound basis is presumably fixed as well.  Given any sort of reasonable transportation schedule between gates, I can't see much of a reason for increasing the cost.

Given that we have no information about what the Radiants spend their assets on, I don't see how we can decide that they are over, under or correctly charging relative to their expenses.  Clearly they are not overcharging for the value the complainer receives or he wouldn't travel that way. 

Corruption goes beyond overcharging.  The ardents serving the queen were clearly corrupt.  I don't see any evidence the Radiants were using the proceeds of their position for personal gain. 

Given that we don't know what the Radiants are spending their assets on and how their expenses may have changed, I don't see that we can conclude that they are corrupt even if they have increased their charges.  They may be corrupt, or they may have good reasons for charging more than some people want.