Honor's Radiance

Granted, but now it's the only thing you're able to eat without being sick. I wish to stop getting bronchitis when I have papers due.

I'm liking this topic for the topic title because it's excellent.

I love this idea so much. I mean, maybe it's too straightforward for the Flanderson, as my fiancée calls him, but I think it sounds very plausible.

Aww, thanks, Wyndlerunner!

Yep, that's my intent here, to go for the obvious pun. You're probably right that it's too simple for Brandon xD. I've read that WoB a few times now, and I'm still not certain I'm convinced it contradicts my theory. Perhaps a better way of wording what I'm thinking is that the aspects of Adonalsium's personality which manifested in the sixteen Shards were determined, at least in part, by the intents of the shatterers. Obviously, if the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium, there's some level at which they're determined by aspects of his personality or nature. I'm just arguing that of the possible options (these being elements of Adonalsium's personality), those chosen were those most closely corresponding to the intents of some or all of the shatterers.

Granted, but it's a terrible wish that means benefits you little, while you spend the rest of your life unable to do any action unless another person confirms that you are permitted to do so. I wish for the ability to Invest according to all the magic systems.

Not sure if this has been put forth already, so apologies if so, but... We know from WoBs that Adonalsium was Shattered deliberately, not directly by its own hand, in the presence of the 16 Vessels and Hoid, and into sixteen pieces because of the specific details of the Shattering which happened, not because of the nature of Adonalsium. (It has been stated it is possible the Shattering could have produced other Shards.) My impression is that the usual assumption is simply that the Shards are attributes of Adonalsium, and the source of their intents is within Adonalsium. However, what if the intents result from the intents of the Shattering, not the intents of Adonalsium? I'm trying to remember whether we have confirmation that the original Vessels were for sure the cause of the Shattering, but if they were, it would make sense that the intents of those 16 people would affect how the Shattering manifested if indeed (as has been said) Adonalsium Shattered as it did for specific reasons. Now, we know that Ati's personality was different than that of his Shard, so presumably it isn't directly personality-based so much as related to the sixteen's particular relationships to Adonalsium or opinions on why the Shattering was necessary. I've only read SA and Warbreaker, so this is hard to flesh out with all the unknowns, but if someone buys the idea and knows more, feel free to offer the data from the rest of the Cosmere.

What if Hoid is effectively the cognitive shadow of Adonalsium, but somehow has a more complete physical form than, say, the Stormfather? It'd theoretically be possible since he existed before the Shattering. Yeah, I have to say it doesn't seem in-character for Hoid to actually take up the mantle of Adonalsium himself rather than slyly groom someone else to do so and do all the work to make the mechanics possible. I would be more surprised if he weren't trying to reforge Adonalsium or something similar than if he were, but I'm not certain it's as simple as a power grab, else why would he have not taken a Shard to begin with? (Especially if, as someone suggested, it were possible for him to take and hide it without exactly bonding to it and becoming influenced by its intent.) Dalinar is an interesting speculation. Certainly if some Rosharan human were to become the next Adonalsium, a Bondsmith would make sense. Or perhaps, at the very least, a Bondsmith's power is necessary for the process. We have, after all, seen in Oathbringer I agree that I would find Hoid participating in the Shattering unlikely. He seems so far to be the type of person to give advice and then roll his eyes when no one takes it. I suppose that'd be an altogether appropriate personality for a god figure, but I still don't think he wants to be Adonalsium. The one way I'd buy him participating would be if the Shattering were in part Adonalsium's idea, even if it was not a self-caused event. Oooooh it would be so fascinating if Adonalsium were the original Hoid.

It occurs to me that this form would be especially effective in Semitic languages where nearly everything is a form of a verb, and the poetry already relies on wordplay through parallelism (at least in Hebrew). Here's one: Once Tanavast was God and Almighty, sang Honor to creation growing. Now grows creation, to Honor sings. And Almighty God was Tanavast once.

Right. My understanding of the implications of the challenge were that Odium may not let on that he is afraid he might lose--or even entirely believe that he can lose--but he does fear losing. Supposing the other side had somehow managed to access other Shards--forge an alliance with Cultivation, for example--or restore the sanity of the Heralds (and, now, replace Jezrien), or something, it would be possible that Odium would actually be at a disadvantage since he refuses to actually take up the power of any of the other Shards. A challenge of champions would ensure that he face only one opponent and thus diminish the possibility for his opposition to have secretly acquired more power than he expected (supposedly). In fact, perhaps part of why Dalinar is so able to resist Odium where most humans have shrunk from him (presumably besides the humans who originally ran from Odium to Honor) is precisely because he sought out the Nightwatcher and became something of a weapon of Cultivation while at the same time being a Radiant under Honor's power.

o.O The number of details Sanderson has orchestrated in these books blows my mind every time. Me. Too. God, that whole Odium plotline was just...so many feels. I think I hyperventilated through the entire scene where he appears for the first time. It was such an eerie description to read because I tend to think of passion as one of my more prominent attributes, and so I found myself resonating uncomfortably deeply with one line he would say or one description, and then in a moment it would be twisted into something so incredibly manipulative. It was a strange sort of whiplash. He's a delightful character, and I'm fascinated by the different sides of himself he shows to Dalinar, Venli, and Taravangian. My skin crawls every time he speaks or appears, so he must be written well... YES. Shinovar is such a mystery! I want to know how much they knew all along about the origin of humans and their relationships with Odium, Honor, and the singers. And I want to know what world the humans left destroyed--was it Braize itself? Or Yolen? Or something else? How many times has this happened before they reached Roshar? Plus, the parallel between the breaking of the Oathpact, the Recreance, and the Shattering of Adonalsium fascinates me. I want to know if the Shattering was for a similar genre of reason to the first two: the Heralds take a gamble that Taln will be able to hold and so vanish, the KR find out about the origins of humans and walk away from the wars--what about Adonalsium? What was happening with the humans, with Rayse perhaps, with whoever was opposing Adonalsium, that Shattering was the strategic decision that seems now to have been a tragic or at least unfortunate event? Other responses to the book: - Dalinar's confrontation with the Nightwatcher & Cultivation was perfect. - I've been waiting for mysterious Renarin to become interesting, and this was excellent. - I cried my eyes out during Dalinar's entire confrontation with Odium. I'm a little more Windrunner than Bondsmith, but ahhh that one got me on a deep, deep level. - I want to kill Moash myself. And I am so angry at how much of a doormat Taravangian lets himself be (to the authority of his own self) when he thinks he can get something out of it at the end (which never seems to succeed, and he never seems to notice). - Jezriennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn *insert numerous crying emojis* - I missed more Jasnah as well, but I'm thrilled they gave her the throne. - And spren in their own realm!!

Nonstop from Hamilton Breathe from In the Heights Defying Gravity from Wicked Finishing the Hat from Sunday in the Park With George I'm gonna stop now before this gets out of hand...

Granted, but the eyebrow grows uncontrollably until it is so large it cannot in fact fully occupy a single dimension at a time and begins to take over the space in the universe, pushing everything else aside and causing a dramatic change in the physics I just made up as the cosmos begins to collapse. I wish to hate cooking for myself less.

Oh, I am 100% warrior. I've always loved school and for the longest time couldn't tell whether I was more Gryffindor or Ravenclaw until I finally realized I even approach school with a warrior's spirit. So I was a bit surprised to get: 59% Elsecaller 33% Willshaper 32% Windrunner 29% Lightweaver 28% Skybreaker 21% Truthwatcher 18% Bondsmith 11% Dustbringer 11% Stoneward 6% Dustbringer Admittedly, I do have something of Jasnah's personality in a number of respects, so perhaps I should be less surprised by Elsecaller than I am. I don't think I'm much of a Willshaper, though, and certainly not a Lightweaver. I'd say my top two should be Windrunner and Bondsmith, followed by probably Elsecaller, then maybe Stoneward and Skybreaker? It's tough to go past the top three for me, and I oscillate a bit between whether I'm more Windrunner or Bondsmith on a given day, though I think I'm ultimately a Windrunner.

Ooh, I like these. I still want to see the Rock as Rock, though... And 100% Idris Elba for Nale. He's got the perfect presence for it. I also like Zendaya or Lupita Nyong'o for Shalash, and I'm having trouble deciding which. If they do open casting, I'm trying out for Syl.

Most of this makes sense, I think--my only question is how the Stormfather fits into this. I'm willing to say most of the humans and even many of the spren currently around might believe the betrayal concept by hearsay (it's quite plausible, given how much time has passed since the Recreance), but we know the Stormfather was around when it happened, and further that he is enough analogous to an honorspren that I would assume he would be just as inclined to prefer death over inevitable corruption. What's your take on his role in the perception of the Recreance as a mass betrayal of the spren?

This would be similar to how Syl died--except that happened more when Kaladin decided to go through with the plan because Syl was gone by the time they were actually trying to assassinate Elhokar. (Am I remembering this correctly?) Maybe the difference has something to do with the bond having progressed to default-sword-form for the KR. This makes me very curious what other spren survived the Recreance. I suppose the "very few survivors" could be the few spren of certain groups that weren't bonded, but I took this as implying that Pattern was talking about bonded spren specifically. Presumably, if the Stormfather had been bonded to a Bondsmith before, then whichever other spren (if it wasn't the Stormfather for all of them) were bonded to Bondsmiths might have survived, by analogy. But "some" would suggest more than three to me--I wonder what kind of spren are capable of surviving the Recreance, and why? Were their Knights less inclined to participate, thus not fully breaking their oaths? Were they stronger somehow than other spren?

First, I don't think this change is intended to make Kaladin look better morally, nor to make him unresponsible for Szeth's 'death'. I think he comes off as approximately equally responsible, and I don't think that's an accident. I think the intent of the change is more to show a moment of second-guessing or wishing it didn't need to be done. Second, I agree with whoever mentioned that it almost looks like Kaladin did intend to go after Szeth until Syl stopped him. Point taken, and I thought this was odd in the first version as well. I'm really curious as to what made her so certain to a degree she doesn't usually attain. Or perhaps the increased bond has changed her assertiveness? I think this is setting up some character development for Syl more than it is for Kaladin. I'm interested to find out what she knows of the Honorblades and why retrieving it is so very important. This is the piece I have the most questions about as well. My first reaction is that Szeth determines his sentence invalid, but Nale credits him with following rules for the sake of following rules even when he wasn't sure he deserved the sentence anymore, so I think there's an inconsistency there. I'm curious to see how Brandon resolves this one.

Maybe he's seeing the lives of the people around Szeth, then. And light is a wave, of course, so it's not surprising that there are analogies between the behaviour of Stormlight and other manifestations of Investiture through sound. I'd assumed the Light was like fire, and the flickering of fire was what Kaladin was seeing in the gemstones, but I suppose he could be more sensitive to the E/M waves as a Radiant and be able to see them.

Well, there goes my theory. So, general healing of oneself must be a unique property of the Nahel bond, while Regrowth, as a Surge, could be used by any bearer of those two Honorblades. Arguably, Kaladin's already made some wrong decisions--letting Moash and co. try to take out Elhokar was wrong enough that his bond with Syl was broken. I'd be willing to bet this isn't going to be treated as "the better option," just that Kaladin might second-guess his decisions in the short time since he renewed his bond with Syl. Everyone, including Kaladin, knows that Szeth needed to be killed, and I don't think Kaladin is so naive as to think this absolves him of responsibility; he may want to believe that, and may convince himself of that, but I don't think he's actually that naive. In the moment, maybe he was hoping to leave Szeth to the Stormfather's judgement, assuming he would probably die but could be saved. One of the edits (talking with the bridgemen afterward) reveals Kaladin suspects Szeth could have survived.

I think it's dependent on the Blade you wield rather than the one to whom you are bonded. Theory: Brandon has said, referring to the original sequence: "...dead shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can." Kaladin has healed himself from Blade wounds because Syl is alive. In the original sequence, Kaladin kills Szeth with Syl, and Szeth cannot heal himself. Szeth wields an Honorblade. The Honorblade must be equivalent to a dead Shardblade. The easiest explanation is that the Honorblade is not a spren and thus does not have the same properties for healing the soul. But, why call it dead if it is simply inanimate? We've already see that the Stormfather calls himself the Almighty's "spren, you might say"--what if there are multiple of these "spren, you might say"s, larger Splinters of Honor that function exactly like Shardblades because they are exactly like Shardblades? We know the Shardblades originally had no fabrials attached with which they were bonded, just like Szeth's doesn't. What if they died when the Oathpact was broken, just like the spren died during the Recreance? And if so, is Taln's still alive? Or if they died when Honor died since (if my chronology is right) that happened after the Oathpact was broken, and they wouldn't have had something like the highstorms to tie them to the physical realm and preserve their life in the same way. (And we already know the Stormfather is nuts. Syl implies that whatever killed the spren broke him as well in some way, that he wasn't always like this. So there's precedent for the larger Splinters of Honor being endangered by this sort of situation, as well as precedent for them being Nahel bonded--see Dalinar.) This is essentially what I was going to say, though I think I'm more inclined to say that the agency for the healing comes directly from the spren rather than from the Radiant's use of Light. Come to think of it, I wonder what the Recreance/mass murder of the spren did to the Radiants' souls? If a living spren, or at least a Nahel bond with one, can effect healing of the soul, can the interaction go the opposite direction? Would killing a spren have some injurious effect on a Radiant's soul? After all, it's already been stated that a Radiant can revive a spren to whom s/he was bonded. My guess is that the flesh wounds can be healed like any other flesh wound--it's the wounds to the soul that require a living spren to mend. I think this is going to be very, very related to the idea that a Nahel bond has the potential either to heal or to widen the cracks in a broken person. Whatever makes it capable of that is likely what makes it capable of the physical manifestation of that (literally healing wounds to the soul).

So 1337 Hoid Can't Compete is still my favorite.

This makes a lot of sense, I think. (And I do wonder if, as you mentioned, Odium might be in this for the Tranquiline Halls as much as any of the worlds.) This is an interesting theory, and I think a fair amount of it makes some sense. My first reaction to the KR leaving their blades behind was noticing the echo of the Heralds' breaking the Oathpact. I'm not sure if it's as conscious as what you're proposing, but I do agree that there's probably an element of that at least subconsciously, or within the natural cycles of history. My first question--and maybe this has been answered somewhere in WoB that I haven't read yet--is which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do the spren locate people who have innate potential to become Surgebinders and actualize those powers through the Nahel bond, or do they choose people somewhat at a whim and turn them into Surgebinders? Because the impression I got from Syl speaking of Kaladin was much closer to the former. So, in response to your second question quoted above, would just anyone really be able to act moral for the sake of superpowers? Or are you suggesting more that potential Radiants may have started out moral for the sake of morality, but eventually focused entirely on the superpowers? I wonder what the spren's role in this process would have been. I find it difficult to imagine that not a single spren would have noticed the shift in their Knight's motives, especially not the honorspren; we have evidence of Syl noticing shifts in Kaladin's motives, after all. I'm not sure the Shardblade-->Honorblade development necessarily follows, but I do love the idea that there are more oaths. You're right--ten is far more prevalent in the series, and more to the point, it would make for an excellent way to redeem the KR and not fall into the same pattern of behavior that led to the Recreance if the original KR had had still more Oaths that they neglected that the new KR actually do speak. I could see this happening with some of the orders, but I have a lot of trouble thinking this would apply to, for instance, the Windrunners. Do you think enough other Radiants started to fall that eventually they dragged the Windrunners into their plan? I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which the Windrunners would not have had to be explicitly dishonourable prior to the Recreance moment itself, thus breaking their oaths and killing their spren before they could plant their Blades in the ground with the rest of the Knights'.

But presumably Szeth will get powers of some sort from Nalan and/or the sword Nalan gave him? This theory makes some sense, although I wonder what you make of Odium's spren? Especially once the listeners go into stormform, which basically makes them Voidbringers (Has it been confirmed as fact that stormform = Voidbringers?). So presumably, that bond is similar enough to Surgebinding to have the same effect of draining Odium's power in the way that Surgebinding drains Honor's. Which, if true, would almost imply that the Desolations end themselves and you don't actually need anyone to stop them, which sort of defeats the purpose of the Heralds (though it might explain why the Radiants disappeared if they realized this and decided they didn't actually need to do anything). True--it has been explicitly stated (on the back of WoR, I believe) that Surgebinding abilities can just as easily drive a wedge into the breaks within a person as it can fill them. But, that does imply that it isn't a necessary effect of Surgebinding that the fissures grow worse; maybe it depends on the person? Or perhaps the powers begin to take over, much in the way Shards take over, and it doesn't end up mattering.

I've actually been wondering recently if the Bondsmiths didn't originally bond the Shards themselves somehow. I'm not sure how, because they're not spren (unless they could in some way be classified as creationspren?). But if the original Bondsmiths bonded something else, that would account for it. This sort of makes sense, although wasn't the Stormfather always the one creating the highstorms? So he had some sort of physical presence, even if it wasn't connected to the Radiants. Or maybe that's actually the key--that he did have a physical presence other than that which was related to the Radiants, and thus survived being betrayed. Or maybe it has something to do with his relationship to the listeners? Because the other spren are personifications of things before they become sentient, and they become sentient when they take physical form and begin talking to people. It depends entirely on when the listeners lost track of all the forms and had to start discovering them from scratch. Because if that happened before the Recreance, then their interaction with the Stormfather can't have been what preserved his sentience. This makes a lot of sense. There's definitely an element of crazy in the Stormfather now, and a spectacular level of disdain and disregard for the humans that I'm inclined to think wasn't there before the Recreance.