Technology between Era 3 and Era 4

[therunner he/him]

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

As an aside, I always wondered whether an Augur burning an unkeyed health  metalmind could prime an allomantic grenade with it and do an area heal.

I think that is quite likely. 

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But if they have Feruchemical healing devices, why is Dejar a cut-rate Darth Vader? For that matter if he couldn't have been healed for some reason, you'd think someone like him would have had access to an F-Cadmium medallion for his oxygen instead of whatever contraption he had.

Well, we know that external healing methods (i.e. ones not part of your soul) are less effective, and that perception also plays role in healing. And aluminum in wounds prevents Invested healing. 

So reasons Dajer cannot heal it could be:

1. He internalized his wound as part of himself (possibly due to traumatic circumstances of it)
2. Malwish healing methods are simply not good enough.
3. Wounds contain Aluminum (i.e. he breathed in some Aluminum dust)

And he is not breathing in oxygen, but some aerosol that is helping his lungs function/prevents the damage from getting worse.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

And isn't it odd that they have Steel/Iron mechanical Allomancy for their air/spacecraft, but not their individual soldiers? Maybe not for everyone, but for a handful on such a potentially crucial mission?

Not necessarily. Fighter plane is generally speaking superior weapon to regular soldier who can push and pull. If you have limited ability to produce such Invested mechanism, putting them in planes makes more sense. 

Plus, Pushes and Pulls are quite likely obsolete methods of fighting, you can negate them either with Reverse Lashing, or with repulsor fabrials.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

When Kelsier had sent out Iyatil, he had  entrusted her with a very important mission on an alien planet, which would have necessitated her going against invested entities. It would have been implausibly counter-productive not to equip her with some invested abilities of her own. He didn't have to share secrets of hemalurgy with her, he could have just implanted her with a spike or 2. And provided  some medallions, apart from the obligatory translation one. 

Just because he sent her on a mission does not mean he fully trusted (as he clearly didn't).

Plus, spren don't like Hemalurgy, so equipping your agents with it is counterproductive when you are sending them to a place with such developed culture in Shadesmar.

And I'll note that none of the Ghostbloods in TLM use Hemalurgy, so for one reason or another, Kelsier is not keen on having his people use it (or they all refused).

Or he is keeping it a secret for himself, after all, he is still lying to Ghostbloods about being able to use Allomancy.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

But why include something like that, which didn't even lead anywhere in the end? 

It didn't lead anywhere yet. We are literally only half way through series.

And some things are just world-building, because of it we know that knowledge of Hemalurgy is present off Scadrial. It could also be considered foreshadowing for crystal Hemalurgy.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

But didn't all Mawlish have heat medallions in Era 2? They didn't strike me as either exorbitantly expensive or at all rare. Why should the other medallions be in the future? Most of them should be somewhat affordable, at least.

Heat medallions are the only thing that allows them to survive, so those being widespread is necessity for their civilization. 
Food is also widespread, doesn't mean that every edible thing is affordable (see any of the kinds of luxury food).

Some might be more difficult to make (and since we don't know how they are made, we cannot really tell), which Wax noted already in TLM. 

Likely there are more limitations to medallions than we assume.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

I could only quickly find this:

You don't have slang for something that is not widespread.

Thank you. 
Though I disagree, slang is also something used by in-group to distinguish themselves. So it could be that people who can afford to buy powers call it that. So on its own I would personally not consider it as suggestive of the fact that devices providing Invested arts are now common (as in, smarthphone common).

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But I remember some WoBs about the democratisation of Metallic Arts via gadgets. I'll look for them, when I have time.

Thank you, I will appreciate it. My WoB skills are a bit rusty.

17 hours ago, Isilel said:

Khriss didn't specify "in the Basin", did she? I always thought that it was on average for all of Scadrial, including the South, though Wax couldn't have known it at that point.

There were also conflicting WoBs, IIRC, that 1:50 Metalborn in Era 2 in the old Mistborn RPG was a little too high, but not far off. And that "everyone would know a Coinshot" in the Basin.

This is not statement from Khris but from Brandon:

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Questioner

So what is the, like, actual density of metalborns born in Elendel?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy, I have this in my notes somewhere. Um...

Questioner

*inaudible* I guess?

Brandon Sanderson

Roughly. All metalborn? One out of every couple thousands. Little more common than you would probably think, based on... I don't know. People usually assume they're a little more rare than they are. But, yeah...

Questioner

Yeah. It just-- As I was reading I kept finding people saying, "Oh yeah, it's so rare. It's so insanely rare." I was like, "I feel like it's not that rare," like...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but still. One every couple thousand. Like, you're going to know somebody, but the chances of you actually being one are pretty rare.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

I will note that this is a bit after the WoB where he comments that 1:50 is too much, and the actual frequency is less than that. 
If anything, it lets us know how Brandon is thinking about it intuitively, so per his intuition, it is still quite rare. And knowing somebody likely simply means you met somebody, not necessarily that in every friend group there will be a metalborn.

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As we know, the Set weren't shy about either recruiting Metalborn or procuring powers for those willing to work for them. Tin Allomancy or  Feruchemy would have been significantly more common than Gold Feruchemy, but we have seen a few Set members with the latter.

True, though why do you think Tin Allomancy or Feruchemy would be more common? I know there is WoB that states that powers are not uniformly distributed, but I don't think we know which powers are more common.

Set going after Gold more than after Tin makes sense to me, being able to heal otherwise deadly wounds is huge boost, as your members have higher chance of staying useful longer (and you don't have to recruit as much due to lessened attrition).
 

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3 hours ago, JPGU said:

I mean, i think they are. Dajer told this to Star:

"The dragons have stagnated. Once, they flew, and mortals walked. Now any child with a coin can soar as they did"

That sounds to me like the ability to use allomancy is available to practically anyone. If we didn't see it in the book it's because Brandon doesn't want to spoil too much of the future of magic in Scadrial and the reason in the world why we didn't see any soldiers use allomancy is that there really wasn't a real opportunity, it's not like throwing coins at the Dakwara was more useful than shooting it.

 

I wouldn't take Dajer at his word, he is clearly unreliable narrator in that he is hyping up Scadrial beyond what is actually true. 
It is true that Dragons stagnated, but Scadrians inability to e.g. heal his lungs, or their lack of Invested powers among their soldiers clearly shows us he is exaggerating.

Both Starling and Dusk call him out on this tendency in their internal monologue:

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Dajer: Scadrial is the most technologically advanced planet in all the cosmere.
Starling: Did you clear that claim with Taldain? she thought. Or better, the planets Invention created? And for all your technological prowess, your ships run on aether.
 

 

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“These,” Dajer said, waving, “are the very best fighters in all of the cosmere. They can maneuver on conventional aether engines, of course, but get them on a battlefield up in space and . . .” He kissed his fingers. Did he love himself that much? “With starship anchors placed in a proper steelfield, these fighters can Push and Pull with extreme accuracy and nimbleness, outmaneuvering any ordinary ship. No one can withstand them in battle.”

Really, all Dusk took from it was that Dajer felt the need to brag about his fighters. Which meant there was someone out there who stood against him. Dusk wondered how they’d tell him that their fighters were the best.

 

Edited July 11, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, Isilel said:

Then medallions and allomantic grenades made their appearance and there was hope of sensible and fun power combinations that wouldn't have required so much contrivance for the protagonists to win.  But, except for in a very limited way with Marasi, it didn't happen. Particularly jarring was that the Ghostbloods, of all people, with their links to the South, had neither medallions nor harmonium-powered devices.

It would seem to me that the Shards and mankind are in a general conflict during this age. Maybe Harmony has just drastically curtailed the supply of Harmonium, hence we are seeing a regression, not a failure to develop. In consequence the Scadrians are not letting Harmonium off planet, if they can help it.

[lacrossedeamon]

RE: Hemalurgy
I'd like to point out that we know it has drawbacks such making one vulnerable to emotional Allomancy. We've also seen there is a lot of convergent evolution in Invested systems so Allomancy is probably not the only way to do that. I would guess you don't want your first contact envoys to have that weakness until you know its not something the locals could exploit.

[RedBlue]

Worth noting that Hemalurgy exposes the user to influence from Harmony (or whoever else is holding Ruin). Giving Sazed access to your soldiers is quite the risk if he’s not 100% on your side.

And there may be legal and diplomatic barriers to deal with as well. If I were the North Scadrian government, I would have strict regulations concerning who is allowed to make and sell charged spikes, and who they’re allowed to sell to. Especially with the more easily weaponised Metallic Arts.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

On 7/11/2025 at 5:13 PM, Oltux72 said:

It would seem to me that the Shards and mankind are in a general conflict during this age. Maybe Harmony has just drastically curtailed the supply of Harmonium, hence we are seeing a regression, not a failure to develop. In consequence the Scadrians are not letting Harmonium off planet, if they can help it.

Or perhaps that there is simply a limit as to how much Harmonium is produced at one time.

There was a limit to Atium production back in Era 1, though that was mostly artifical due to the Lord Ruler's policies, afer who knows how long stockpiling Atium in the Trsutwarren it could all be burned away by a small army of Seers in a matter of hours.

So maybe Harmonium is plentiful enough to keep the Malwish society afloat, maybe even enough to keep all of Scadrial afloat, but by this book, Scadrial is now host to an interstellar empire with a number of worlds under their control. 

There probably just isn't enough Harmonium to go around the entire empire, especially not for a mission that Dajer's superiors consider a waste of time.

Edit:

A reply to the guy above me:

Spoiler

Worth noting that Hemalurgy exposes the user to influence from Harmony (or whoever else is holding Ruin). Giving Sazed access to your soldiers is quite the risk if he’s not 100% on your side.

And there may be legal and diplomatic barriers to deal with as well. If I were the North Scadrian government, I would have strict regulations concerning who is allowed to make and sell charged spikes, and who they’re allowed to sell to. Especially with the more easily weaponised Metallic Arts.

For the first bit, that never stopped the Set from sticking most of their most high-ranking members with 3-4 spikes each, with no mentioned protection against Harmony's tampering. (Edit: Besides the Trellium Spike preventing Hemalurgic Control I mean, and even then they didn't use that until after BoM, so there wasn't anything said that could stop Harmony from messing with their heads with just three spikes, ala Ruin, besides his own moral principles.)

As for the second bit, government regulations on Hemalurgy is just common sense, especially for a military, you don't want any of your soldiers becoming AWOL serial killers hunting for powers as soon as they get the chance. In fact, it'd be best to keep all the intricate details on Hemalurgy private to impede said people. Just because everyone might know of Hemalurgy, doesn't mean they can use it well.

Edited July 13, 2025 by JustQuestin2004

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 7/4/2025 at 1:36 PM, therunner said:

Scadrians don't seem to utilize Hemalurgy on large scale

I'm not sure about this. When the Malwish reveal their faces, they do have some metal appendages.

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The Ones Above were human. The officials gathered in the room with him gasped as they saw the faces. One male, one female, with strangely pale skin. Perhaps this was what happened when people never saw the sun, living in the emptiness between planets. What were those odd pieces of metal stuck to their cheeks? Ribbed, like ripples of waves, those didn’t seem like armor. More ornamental.

I figure these could be either metalminds or spikes.

[therunner he/him]

18 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I'm not sure about this. When the Malwish reveal their faces, they do have some metal appendages.

I figure these could be either metalminds or spikes.

At first I thought so too, however the Malwish simply don't exhibit any characteristics of these being metalminds or spikes.

Plus Starlight later describes them as modern style of mask, so I think they are simply cyberpunk-style implant, that shows both their cultural heritage, and can work as e.g. communicator: 
Starling description: 

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The leader of the Scadrians was a red-haired man with the modern style of mask: a pair of two-inch-long metal grafts at the sides of the face, extending along the cheekbones and beneath the hair under the ears, attached directly to the skin.

and later

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A human research team was studying the open metal doors, led by two people in black, old-style Scadrian masks.
These were wooden, rather than the small metal bits people like Dajer wore grafted to their cheeks, under the ears and reaching toward
the mouth. His was more jewelry than mask, though perhaps with a medical purpose
 

They can also be changed: 

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Dajer’s skin was flushed, the tubes to his nose hissing oxygen. He had changed to a larger mask—metal that extended from nodes at the sides of his face, plating his forehead, his cheeks, and the ridge of his nose in a way that outlined his eyes with sharp angles. A war mask. Great
 

so likely Scadrians have some implanted studs in their cheeks, and then swap the bits as per social occassion.

If they were also spikes/metalminds, Starling should know that, since she is traveling with a Scadrian deserter. So I think we can safely conclude that those metal appendages are not metalminds or spikes, instead being modern analogue to Malwish masks.

Edited July 14, 2025 by therunner

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If they were also spikes/metalminds, Starling should know that, since she is traveling with a Scadrian deserter. So I think we can safely conclude that those metal appendages are not metalminds or spikes, instead being modern analogue to Malwish masks.

We do that different groups of Southern Scadrians have different mask customs. Leonore seems to be part of a more conservative group as the one piece of artwork we have of her has her holding a more traditional mask. She might not know all the ends and outs of "masks" from other groups.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

We do that different groups of Southern Scadrians have different mask customs. Leonore seems to be part of a more conservative group as the one piece of artwork we have of her has her holding a more traditional mask. She might not know all the ends and outs of "masks" from other groups.

Leonore was part of the very same military Dajer is. If the 'masks' have general utility, she would likely know. 

I mean, Dajer loves to brag, so you think he would use this opportunity as well to demonstrate how he is superior to deserter from different group.

Combined with zero Invested powers demonstrated or linked to masks, I am still inclined to believe they are what the narration says, just masks.
 

Edited July 14, 2025 by therunner

[lacrossedeamon]

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

Leonore was part of the very same military Dajer is. If the 'masks' have general utility, she would likely know. 

Being in a military and knowing all the ins and outs are rather different. There could be clearance levels needed.

15 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, Dajer loves to brag, so you think he would use this opportunity as well to demonstrate how he is superior to deserter from different group.

He could love to brag and still know somethings are better left unsaid. Him being completely incompetent undercuts some of the achievements of the protagonists imo.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Combined with zero Invested powers demonstrated or linked to masks, I am still inclined to believe they are what the narration says, just masks.

This is perfectly fair.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Being in a military and knowing all the ins and outs are rather different. There could be clearance levels needed.

Masks are generic things among the Malwish, everyone has them. 

If somehow only some superiors started getting ones implanted, it would immediately be clear what is happening. People know about Feruchemy, and likely basic idea of Hemalurgy, so it is not a large leap.

Unless only some of those masks are Invested implants, but then, their mere presence is no evidence of them actually being Invested, since they would be present either way.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

He could love to brag and still know somethings are better left unsaid. 

He revealed to a Dragon that Scadrians broke into their most secure vault. If he reveals that, I don't think there is much he wouldn't to lord over people.

Edited July 14, 2025 by therunner

[Isilel]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Combined with zero Invested powers demonstrated or linked to masks, I am still inclined to believe they are what the narration says, just masks.

 

Though, presumably, the Mawlish still need their heat medallions, no? Their clothing didn't seem like anything special enough to replace those. They could have been  integrated into metal "masks". And weight medallions were mentioned too, as well as translation ones, so not quite zero Invested Arts for personal use demonstrated.

It is really odd that they'd make themselves so vulnerable to  Steel/Iron, though, unless the "masks" are made of or plated with aluminium. 

P.S. Re: Metallic Arts being integrated into ships instead of given to individuals and so on - wouldn't pilots with access to F-Zinc, F-Steel,  possibly F-Chromium, or A/F Pewter (to resist acceleration better) have an unbeatable advantage over those without? It still would have made sense to have both, with powers of personal devices complementing and enhancing those of the vehicles.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Isilel

[Isilel]

On 7/11/2025 at 8:59 AM, therunner said:

Pushes and Pulls are quite likely obsolete methods of fighting, you can negate them either with Reverse Lashing, or with repulsor fabrials.

 

But isn't it how they fly their fighters in a "Steel Field" and how they land on and lift from planets in the physical realm? Not as easy to disrupt as you suggest, IMHO.

I also disagree that Kelsier distrusted Iyatil when he sent her out and didn't equip her with spikes, or other useful Metallic Arts gadgets for that reason. This mission was important to him - so why send someone whom he considered unreliable? My understanding is that gaining a Radiant bond wasn't something that was planned from the beginning either - so spikes being counter-productive for that wouldn't have been part of the calculus or even known to them. In fact, for all we know, enlightened spren might not care about it.

 

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And I'll note that none of the Ghostbloods in TLM use Hemalurgy, so for one reason or another, Kelsier is not keen on having his people use it (or they all refused).

 

Weirdly, none of Ghostbloods in Bilming used Metallic Arts at all, despite the fact that they had a stash of metal vials in their armory and the medallions, as well as harmonium were known even to the general public in TLM. And the Ghostbloods should have had much easier access to the latter 2 than to purified Dor.

It makes sense for Prasanva and Shai not to have spikes, though, since his Aether would have opposed it and it would have interfered with her Forging herself. And implausibly, no other members in Bilming even tried to do anything about the impending End of the World... So we have no idea if they included any hemalurgists.

 

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Or he is keeping it a secret for himself, after all, he is still lying to Ghostbloods about being able to use Allomancy

 

Hm... Not having an Allomancer, hemalurgic or otherwise, in his close circle, so as not to get caught out might make sense... But he did try to recruit Marasi...

Re: opening up access to Metallic Arts, Cyberpunk Era, if it happens, should require it, no?  I also feel that this WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e715

Hints that Sanderson at some point thought about the problem of having in-born powers be what defines characters importance in the Mistborn series. Not to mention that it has been done a million times in fantasy and SF. 

 

@lacrossedeamon:

 

Aluminium-lined headgear protects against weakness to emotional Allomancy caused by hemalurgy.

 

Edited July 14, 2025 by Isilel

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Though, presumably, the Mawlish still need their heat medallions, no? Their clothing didn't seem like anything special enough to replace those. They could have been  integrated into metal "masks".

Note also that Leonore never mentions anything about heat medallion for herself either, so either she is Northern scadrial (unlikely considering her mask) or the problem has been somehow resolved (maybe that is the mysterious thing Sazed did?). In SA we also see Malwish, and there is no mention of heat medallions made as far as I know.

Or it is not considered particularly notable, no more than someone having e.g. a wristwatch

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And weight medallions were mentioned too, as well as translation ones, so not quite zero Invested Arts for personal use demonstrated.

Those however seem to be mentioned as devices, or have the same form as seen in Era 2, like a coin.

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It is really odd that they'd make themselves so vulnerable to  Steel/Iron, though, unless the "masks" are made of or plated with aluminium.

Metals piercing a body are not pushable/pullable, so it is not a vulnerability. 
Only instance of those metals being pushed was Vin powered by Preservation

BTW, to clarify, I am not saying those cheek implants cannot be spikes/medallions/metalminds, I am just saying there is no evidence of that as far as I can see. All the connection of those is that they are metal, and are in a body, but the people who have them don't show any Invested powers, and the narration explicitly calls them a modern form of mask. 

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But isn't it how they fly their fighters in a "Steel Field" and how they land on and lift from planets in the physical realm? Not as easy to disrupt as you suggest, IMHO.

I meant obsolete on personal level, not necessarily on larger level. 
A coinshot won't have particular advantage over anyone equipped with relatively basic repulsor (i.e. effectively everyone can have steel bubble now), and mobility-wise those are also semi-easy to disrupt (e.g. large magnet, or again repulsor).

Pushes and Pulls being dependent on external infrastructure is inevitably a vulnerability, E.g. the Skybreaker could cut the supports of the Scadrian landing platform, and the Scadrian ship would be grounded on Drominad. 

For defensive structures it is smaller problem (you control the terrain so you can setup semi-permanent fixtures, likely those steelfields), but for offensive actions you have to deploy infrastructure, which is a weakness.

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I also disagree that Kelsier distrusted Iyatil when he sent her out and didn't equip her with spikes, or other useful Metallic Arts gadgets for that reason. This mission was important to him - so why send someone whom he considered unreliable?

Well we have the following facts: 

1. In TLM he seems concerned about her behavior, as well as in W&T.
2. He didn't equip them with Invested arts.

Both of those are explained by lack of trust on Kelsier's part. Why would he sent someone he does not trust? Well, perhaps she was the best positioned asset, afterall she is off-worlder (Silverlight heritage). So it was sending her, or having to train someone from Scadrial, and then have them track for months to Roshar.

Or he did trust her, but didn't want Metallic arts to fall into Rosharan hands, so he didn't give her that stuff.

Edited July 14, 2025 by therunner

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Metals piercing a body are not pushable/pullable, so it is not a vulnerability. 
Only instance of those metals being pushed was Vin powered by Preservation

Actually TLR did it as well and I think it happened somewhere in Era 2. The Coppermind says this limitation can be overcome by a "sufficiently strong Coinshot." You could probably do it with an external investiture source or duralumin. They clearly have a gun-thing that uses extremely large amounts of investiture, so I would disagree that they're not a weakness unless invested or coated in aluminum.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

But isn't it how they fly their fighters in a "Steel Field" and how they land on and lift from planets in the physical realm? Not as easy to disrupt as you suggest, IMHO.

I also disagree that Kelsier distrusted Iyatil when he sent her out and didn't equip her with spikes, or other useful Metallic Arts gadgets for that reason. This mission was important to him - so why send someone whom he considered unreliable? My understanding is that gaining a Radiant bond wasn't something that was planned from the beginning either - so spikes being counter-productive for that wouldn't have been part of the calculus or even known to them. In fact, for all we know, enlightened spren might not care about it.

 

 

Weirdly, none of Ghostbloods in Bilming used Metallic Arts at all, despite the fact that they had a stash of metal vials in their armory and the medallions, as well as harmonium were known even to the general public in TLM. And the Ghostbloods should have had much easier access to the latter 2 than to purified Dor.

It makes sense for Prasanva and Shai not to have spikes, though, since his Aether would have opposed it and it would have interfered with her Forging herself. And implausibly, no other members in Bilming even tried to do anything about the impending End of the World... So we have no idea if they included any hemalurgists.

 

 

Hm... Not having an Allomancer, hemalurgic or otherwise, in his close circle, so as not to get caught out might make sense... But he did try to recruit Marasi...

Re: opening up access to Metallic Arts, Cyberpunk Era, if it happens, should require it, no?  I also feel that this WoB:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e715

Hints that Sanderson at some point thought about the problem of having in-born powers be what defines characters importance in the Mistborn series. Not to mention that it has been done a million times in fantasy and SF. 

 

@lacrossedeamon:

 

Aluminium-lined headgear protects against weakness to emotional Allomancy caused by hemalurgy.

 

First to the main topic I would like to point out some things you missed
1. The”cloud” probably utilize a combination of A-copper ands A-Duralumin in harmonium

2. They appear to be using some form of invested power source probably also harmonium.
 

To the reply

You seem to be assuming that the mission on Roshar was important to him I do not think that was the case. Back that would point to the very fact he put someone there he didn’t fully trust and the fact that he didn’t fully supply her as proof that he didn’t consider Rocha to be a high priority. It was a tiny cell in a vast organization, one he probably didn’t interact with very often. True Roshar is a source of investigature but so is Dor and there are other sources. Likely he had similar cells on all of them.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Qianweilian said:

Actually TLR did it as well and I think it happened somewhere in Era 2. The Coppermind says this limitation can be overcome by a "sufficiently strong Coinshot." You could probably do it with an external investiture source or duralumin.

You are correct on TLR, however no one did it in Era 2.  And Duralumin is likely insufficient, as otherwise Vin could simply Push out Inquisitor spikes, yet neither she, nor Elend did. 

Pushing on implanted metals is far beyond the scope of mere access to Duralumin or pure Investiture.

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They clearly have a gun-thing that uses extremely large amounts of investiture, so I would disagree that they're not a weakness unless invested or coated in aluminum.

I mean, if someone is pointing that gun-thing at you, having metallic implants is the least of your concerns. That thing could simply melt you likely.

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, if someone is pointing that gun-thing at you, having metallic implants is the least of your concerns. That thing could simply melt you likely.

I meant that it's fairly likely that they would have enough investiture to be able to superpower a steelpush, not that they would use the specific device shown in the book.

[bmcclure7]

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

You are correct on TLR, however no one did it in Era 2.  And Duralumin is likely insufficient, as otherwise Vin could simply Push out Inquisitor spikes, yet neither she, nor Elend did. 

Pushing on implanted metals is far beyond the scope of mere access to Duralumin or pure Investiture.

I mean, if someone is pointing that gun-thing at you, having metallic implants is the least of your concerns. That thing could simply melt you likely.

Yeah, I would preferred if their guns made more allomantic sense. I was expecting something like extra fast bullets or something. Instead, they seem like standard lasers.

[alder24]

59 minutes ago, therunner said:

You are correct on TLR, however no one did it in Era 2.  And Duralumin is likely insufficient, as otherwise Vin could simply Push out Inquisitor spikes, yet neither she, nor Elend did. 

I'm pretty sure I remember Wax being able to push on some metalminds or piercings piercing the body in the books. Just push on them and use them as anchors. This caught my eye because it was unexpected. 

[therunner he/him]

13 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I meant that it's fairly likely that they would have enough investiture to be able to superpower a steelpush, not that they would use the specific device shown in the book.

Having machine capable of channeling that amount of Investiture does not mean that people could as well.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm pretty sure I remember Wax being able to push on some metalminds or piercings piercing the body in the books. Just push on them and use them as anchors. This caught my eye because it was unexpected. 

Hmm, interesting.  I suspect if it did happen, it would have been when he has Bands or he was momentarily fueled by Harmony, as he very much does not do anything like that against either Miles or Set, where it would have been useful.

Heck, if he could do that regularly, he could have stopped Bleeder trivially (just push the spike out), or even simply tracked her.

In TLM (chapter 25) Wax also mentions that he had his Metalminds implanted into him, specifically so they couldn't be pushed, which, if he did that himself under ordinary circumstances, wouldn't make sense. Neither can he track 'Not-Wax' by his spikes, so even after becoming Mistborn he cannot see spikes, much less push on them.

So I think it was with Bands, or perhaps you are misremembering?

Edited July 15, 2025 by therunner

[Isilel]

So, onto something else: was anyone else surprised that Scadrians widely use Rosharan anti-gravitation technology? I thought that they'd be able to achieve something similar by combining Weight and Connection Feruchemy in some way. It seems odd that they are so dependent on their enemy's technology and have enough access to it and, presumably, the spren required for it.

I also expected that Rosharans would dominate Shadesmar, while Scadrians would dominate Physical Realm transportation via FTL. Weird how this isn't the case. 

Rosharans should be able to visit worlds without Perpendicularities from Shadesmar using Transportation Surge, after all. Yet we heard that Dhatri was only accessible via FTL after losing it's Perpendicularity... though maybe Rosharans don't like to carry any passengers. Still, you'd think that some Willshapers would want to become free traders or something.

Oh, and doesn't Drominad system have 2 other inhabited planets? Since they have no Shardic presence, are they going to get colonized now? And how did people get onto them in the first place?

Also, both Rosharans and Scadrians are totally  going to set up on the uninhabited mainland of the First and create Aviar smuggling rings, IMHO. 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Hmm, interesting.  I suspect if it did happen, it would have been when he has Bands or he was momentarily fueled by Harmony, as he very much does not do anything like that against either Miles or Set, where it would have been useful.

Heck, if he could do that regularly, he could have stopped Bleeder trivially (just push the spike out), or even simply tracked her.

In TLM (chapter 25) Wax also mentions that he had his Metalminds implanted into him, specifically so they couldn't be pushed, which, if he did that himself under ordinary circumstances, wouldn't make sense. Neither can he track 'Not-Wax' by his spikes, so even after becoming Mistborn he cannot see spikes, much less push on them.

So I think it was with Bands, or perhaps you are misremembering?

Definitely not with the Bands. I do remember that quote from TLM ch 25 and it might have been the source of my confusing memory, but at the same time I'm still quite certain I've seen Wax pushing on metalminds or piercing before (not Hemalurgic spikes), or just seeing them with steelsight.. Can't remember where it was. And because it was a normal push, it wouldn't have enough force to push spikes or metalminds out of the body. 

Never mind, I've found it. And it wasn't even Wax who did it. There are probably other instances of this in the series, so pushing slightly on metalminds is not something impossible to do with normal Allomantic strength. BoM ch 7.

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Never mind, I've found it. And it wasn't even Wax who did it. There are probably other instances of this in the series, so pushing slightly on metalminds is not something impossible to do with normal Allomantic strength. BoM ch 7.
 

Quote

The brute smiled. Doors still rattled around him—he was a Coinshot, obviously, Pushing out with a bubble like the one Wax used. It even pressed a little on the metalminds Wax wore on his upper arms, which were resistant to Allomancy.

 

But those are not implanted in the body, which is what I was talking about.

18 hours ago, therunner said:

You are correct on TLR, however no one did it in Era 2.  And Duralumin is likely insufficient, as otherwise Vin could simply Push out Inquisitor spikes, yet neither she, nor Elend did. 

Pushing on implanted metals is far beyond the scope of mere access to Duralumin or pure Investiture.

Pushing on spikes and metalminds outside of body is possible yes, but if they are implanted no.

 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, onto something else: was anyone else surprised that Scadrians widely use Rosharan anti-gravitation technology? I thought that they'd be able to achieve something similar by combining Weight and Connection Feruchemy in some way. It seems odd that they are so dependent on their enemy's technology and have enough access to it and, presumably, the spren required for it.

Personally I wasn't that suprised. 
I have long thought that people overestimate what Scadrians will be able to do with Invested Arts.

On it being accessible, I suspect there is thriving economy, even among the nominally hostile nations (just like IRL).

Quote

I also expected that Rosharans would dominate Shadesmar, while Scadrians would dominate Physical Realm transportation via FTL. Weird how this isn't the case. 

I did expect that as well, so it was a bit surprising.

Quote

Rosharans should be able to visit worlds without Perpendicularities from Shadesmar using Transportation Surge, after all. Yet we heard that Dhatri was only accessible via FTL after losing it's Perpendicularity... though maybe Rosharans don't like to carry any passengers. Still, you'd think that some Willshapers would want to become free traders or something.

From the description of the Shadesmar in this book, it seems to me that CR near planets without perpendicularity would be very difficult to find. 

You would basically have to blindly navigate Emberdark and hope you happen to run into planetary subastral. Which can be nearly indistinguishable from Emberdark itself as Drominad subastral shows.

So theoretically yes, Rosharans can transition between PR and CR with greater ease, but you still have to find the right part of CR to do that.
 

Edited July 15, 2025 by therunner

[Isilel]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I have long thought that people overestimate what Scadrians will be able to do with Invested Arts

 

But then, how did they become so powerful, if their Invested Arts are relatively weak and there is also a WoB that their population is on the lower side as well? Nor are they even united. Not to mention that I'd think that FTL in the physical realm would be harder to achieve than anti-grav. 

As to the comparison to hostile nations using it's others technologies iRL, at least these work much more similarly than various cosmere ones. Also, it should be easier for Roshar to cut such trade off. Presumably, gravitation spren are a somewhat limited resource as well,  and not easily renewable. 

Finally, IMHO it would have been cooler for each side of that conflict to have their own signature military technologies, while neutral civilian ships like the Dynamic could believable use a hodge-podge of everything...

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

From the description of the Shadesmar in this book, it seems to me that CR near planets without perpendicularity would be very difficult to find.

 

And yet, Threnodites found Canticle,  Iriali found the First of the Sun, Lumar and likely lots of other places, etc. Khriss talked about studying planets without Perpendicularities from the Cognitive realm in her essays in Arcanum Unbounded...

And now that there is FTL, Rosharans could just go to a likely planet, have a scout group translate into the Cognitive with the help of Transportation and have them travel back to known places, creating a new Shadesmar route. Not to mention that Dhatri, for example, used to have a Perpendicularity, probably even during the Era 2 on Scadrial, so a Shadesmar route to it should already be known. 

I also expected  Elantrians to have established some interstellar stargates using Aon Tia...

I  suspect that the First of the Sun is somewhat unique, in that it has a very minimal Cognitive reflection. Dusk didn't even see any souls of marine life once he left the Perpendicularity. Nor did Patji itself have a reflection, hm...