Technology between Era 3 and Era 4

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

But then, how did they become so powerful, if their Invested Arts are relatively weak and there is also a WoB that their population is on the lower side as well? Nor are they even united. Not to mention that I'd think that FTL in the physical realm would be harder to achieve than anti-grav. 

We know their invested arts are relatively weak, but they are very good at regular-ish technoligy. Roshar will be the magicpunk power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124/#e1807 )

Also it is the population of the Basin that we know is relatively small (~15 million is closest we have), we don't have data on Malwish at all. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466 ) But based on on maps, they could easily be larger population.

FTL is likely something easier for Scadrians since they literally have powers that compress time. Conversely Rosharans have powers that directly interact with gravity, hence them having easier time to construct antigrav machines.

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

As to the comparison to hostile nations using it's others technologies iRL, at least these work much more similarly than various cosmere ones. Also, it should be easier for Roshar to cut such trade off. Presumably, gravitation spren are a somewhat limited resource as well,  and not easily renewable. 

If it works differently, all the more reason to get it and then replicate it, that way you can learn something (i.e. industrial espionage basically) . 

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

Finally, IMHO it would have been cooler for each side of that conflict to have their own signature military technologies, while neutral civilian ships like the Dynamic could believable use a hodge-podge of everything...

I am certain they will have their signature technologies (e.g. Scadrian steelfields), antigravity is just simply not one of those. It is quite a staple of sci-fi genre, so it makes sense everyone has it.

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

And yet, Threnodites found Canticle,  Iriali found the First of the Sun, Lumar and likely lots of other places, etc. Khriss talked about studying planets without Perpendicularities from the Cognitive realm in her essays in Arcanum Unbounded...

Only Iriali seem to be able to do it repeatedly, and we know very little of them. E.g. cakoban (if he was Iriali) used unknown Invested art for navigation and for forcing the dakwara to obey him. Additionally, from WAT it seems that at least 'now' they have highly Invested entities as guides to next land (and based on their behavior, they likely have had guides in the past), so they themselves don't necessarily know where they are going.

I.e. Iriali can find specific places via their guides, but that does not mean they are generally capable of searching in Shadesmar.

Plus, a month long travel by ship is considered 'close', so unsea/Emberdark is large, as in multiple ocean's worth of empty space. Without reliable navigation you basically have no chance of finding anything.

Khriss only mentions that worlds without perpendicularity cannot be visited in PR, but can be studies from CR. Which, yes. But that does not mean she is capable of finding such planets. E.g. Braize and Ashyn are both examples of planets without perpendicularity.

Plus Khriss herself is clearly incapable of even finding a perpendicularity she suspects exists on First of the Sun, so likely she has no better way of navigating Emberdark than others.

Spoiler

"Well, Khriss says this place has a perpendicularity—she connects it to a record of some people who encountered a well of power in Shadesmar, traveled to the other side a couple of times, and mostly all just died. Some arcanists laugh at the idea, because there can’t be a perpendicularity on that planet, right? Because there’s no known Shard Investing it. Khriss hasn’t been able to prove it herself, because she can’t provide coordinates.”
 

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

And now that there is FTL, Rosharans could just go to a likely planet, have a scout group translate into the Cognitive with the help of Transportation and have them travel back to known places, creating a new Shadesmar route.

FTL is clearly still very early and very expansive tech, most travel is still through shadesmar. So this is likely not cost effective. Plus they couldn't simply walk back, as we see how dangerous Emberdark is. Elsecalling as we have seen it does not support taking much with you beyond what is on you, so they would likely immediately fall to the 'ground', and then were stuck without any navigable landmarks.

CR and PR don't map particularly directly to each other, that only happens near perpendicularities as we have learned in this book. So even if you get to CR you won't be able to travel back to known place, because you have no idea where you are in relation to it.

Quote

Not to mention that Dhatri, for example, used to have a Perpendicularity, probably even during the Era 2 on Scadrial, so a Shadesmar route to it should already be known. 

Or the CR shifted after perpendicularity vanished. IotE mentions that perpendicularities are the only 'fixed' points, and all else does not match precisely (or at all) with PR. So once known paths can be lost.

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“We’re actually pretty far off from the coordinates on the map, but that’s not uncommon. That map is millennia old, and Shadesmar—of course—shifts over time."
 

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I’m curious how when you pass through, you drop into the general region, not the exact location of the portal. That’s not unheard of, as the overlap between Shadesmar and the Physical Realm is askew. Still, most full-blown perpendicularities work as a stabilizing point on the map, a place where the two realms overlap identically.”
 

 

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

I  suspect that the First of the Sun is somewhat unique, in that it has a very minimal Cognitive reflection. Dusk didn't even see any souls of marine life once he left the Perpendicularity. Nor did Patji itself have a reflection, hm... 

They do mention that Shadesmar can be very different ,and that while usually you have the ground/water inversion, it is not hard rule.
 

Quote

"Each planet in the Physical Realm has a profound effect on Shadesmar,” Ed said. “Near Nalthis the surface is painted colors, wet with pigment and flowers that drip ink. Roshar? Glass beads, like the gemstones they use for light, and inverted land and sea—which is common for some regions, but not all of them.”

“And here it’s more like water,” Starling said. “Drominad is an ocean planet, I assume?”

“Exactly,” Ed said. “The change here is more subtle than others, but it is a change. We sometimes see subastrals like this one near sea-faring cultures, where the unsea becomes the dominant feature, instead of fully solidifying, even for oceans. This might be why the Drominad perpendicularity, despite being less than a month’s journey from important lanes of travel, hasn’t been found. Because at first glance, this region seems like just any other part of the endless emberdark. These hints, though, are proof. We are absolutely within a planetary subastral.”

 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

On 7/4/2025 at 9:36 PM, therunner said:

• Scadrian ships use Pushes and Pulls, but only in prepared 'Steelfields'
  • Is this Allomancy used by non-living object, like Malwish ships used Feruchemy?
  • They are reliant on steelfields, otherwise use Aether-based engine. Suggests either Aether's are much more efficient, or their rocketry is a bit behind what we would expect
• Scadrians rely on Rosharan tech for levitation and anti-gravity

The first part was surprising to me, especially given the comment earlier in the book that Scadrian, Rosharan, and Dhatri tech families produced working spaceships independently from others. Like, I can see zephyr aether being the best propulsion source in the cosmere, but using spores for power broke my brain a bit. 

My current guess on the steelfield is that it's a combination of Feruchemical speed, weight and Allomantic duralumin fabrials, deployed on a large scale, with anchors using F-iron to become perfect emplacements. 

The levitating platforms were specifically called out as being used only in cases when they can't set up steelfields.
 

Quote

Dajer jogged toward her, then gestured toward the cargo ship, which was hovering into the air to leave, its delivery made. It had left a small crew of engineers, who guided the large device—which did look something like an old-fashioned cannon, though several times larger, and with a narrower front—on a hover platform to join the main complex. She noted with amusement that the platform was Rosharan tech. The Scadrians couldn’t help using the tools of their enemies in situations like this, without a steelfield.

And I'd note that it's probably worth specifying that everything we've learned applies only to Malwish Scadrians. Hopefully. 
I really hope that the Malwish expansionist policy is what is driving them to use only the cheapest, most mass producible means of accomplishing their technical goals. So democratized metallic arts, spaceships that run without aethers, more people using magic are there, just in the other parts of Scadrial. Fingers crossed, I guess 

Edited July 16, 2025 by ScadrianTank

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

We know their invested arts are relatively weak, but they are very good at regular-ish technoligy. Roshar will be the magicpunk power (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124/#e1807 )

Also it is the population of the Basin that we know is relatively small (~15 million is closest we have), we don't have data on Malwish at all. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466 ) But based on on maps, they could easily be larger population.

FTL is likely something easier for Scadrians since they literally have powers that compress time. Conversely Rosharans have powers that directly interact with gravity, hence them having easier time to construct antigrav machines.

If it works differently, all the more reason to get it and then replicate it, that way you can learn something (i.e. industrial espionage basically) . 

I am certain they will have their signature technologies (e.g. Scadrian steelfields), antigravity is just simply not one of those. It is quite a staple of sci-fi genre, so it makes sense everyone has it.

Only Iriali seem to be able to do it repeatedly, and we know very little of them. E.g. cakoban (if he was Iriali) used unknown Invested art for navigation and for forcing the dakwara to obey him. Additionally, from WAT it seems that at least 'now' they have highly Invested entities as guides to next land (and based on their behavior, they likely have had guides in the past), so they themselves don't necessarily know where they are going.

I.e. Iriali can find specific places via their guides, but that does not mean they are generally capable of searching in Shadesmar.

Plus, a month long travel by ship is considered 'close', so unsea/Emberdark is large, as in multiple ocean's worth of empty space. Without reliable navigation you basically have no chance of finding anything.

Khriss only mentions that worlds without perpendicularity cannot be visited in PR, but can be studies from CR. Which, yes. But that does not mean she is capable of finding such planets. E.g. Braize and Ashyn are both examples of planets without perpendicularity.

Plus Khriss herself is clearly incapable of even finding a perpendicularity she suspects exists on First of the Sun, so likely she has no better way of navigating Emberdark than others.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Well, Khriss says this place has a perpendicularity—she connects it to a record of some people who encountered a well of power in Shadesmar, traveled to the other side a couple of times, and mostly all just died. Some arcanists laugh at the idea, because there can’t be a perpendicularity on that planet, right? Because there’s no known Shard Investing it. Khriss hasn’t been able to prove it herself, because she can’t provide coordinates.”
 

FTL is clearly still very early and very expansive tech, most travel is still through shadesmar. So this is likely not cost effective. Plus they couldn't simply walk back, as we see how dangerous Emberdark is. Elsecalling as we have seen it does not support taking much with you beyond what is on you, so they would likely immediately fall to the 'ground', and then were stuck without any navigable landmarks.

CR and PR don't map particularly directly to each other, that only happens near perpendicularities as we have learned in this book. So even if you get to CR you won't be able to travel back to known place, because you have no idea where you are in relation to it.

Or the CR shifted after perpendicularity vanished. IotE mentions that perpendicularities are the only 'fixed' points, and all else does not match precisely (or at all) with PR. So once known paths can be lost.

 

They do mention that Shadesmar can be very different ,and that while usually you have the ground/water inversion, it is not hard rule.
 

 

I don’t know it seems to me that Scadrial has plenty of magic tec in it. Their guns ships all use some form of magic to mention they’re healing devices and the cloud.
 

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The first part was surprising to me, especially given the comment earlier in the book that Scadrian, Rosharan, and Dhatri tech families produced working spaceships independently from others. Like, I can see zephyr aether being the best propulsion source in the cosmere, but using spores for power broke my brain a bit. 

My current guess on the steelfield is that it's a combination of Feruchemical speed, weight and Allomantic duralumin fabrials, deployed on a large scale, with anchors using F-iron to become perfect emplacements. 

The levitating platforms were specifically called out as being used only in cases when they can't set up steelfields.
 

And I'd note that it's probably worth specifying that everything we've learned applies only to Malwish Scadrians. Hopefully. 
I really hope that the Malwish expansionist policy is what is driving them to use only the cheapest, most mass producible means of accomplishing their technical goals. So democratized metallic arts, spaceships that run without aethers, more people using magic are there, just in the other parts of Scadrial. Fingers crossed, I guess 

It seems like in this case they’re using a lot of other technology because they’re on the frontier and don’t have access to a steel field. Democratization of the magic art does not mean that everyone will have access to them in equal measure. 

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don’t know it seems to me that Scadrial has plenty of magic tec in it. Their guns ships all use some form of magic to mention they’re healing devices and the cloud.

I am not saying they don't use magi-tech at all, but per Brandon the primary faction that will be magi-tech coded is Roshar. (unless he changes his mind in the future)

I.e. Scadrial uses things that look like something we might expect (e.g. implanted communicators, beam weapons, etc.) even if the means are magical. 

But Roshar will likely have more esoteric stuff for lack of better word.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

What suprised me the most is probably fact that Malwish seems to not have any Metalborn between them. Also, we heard at least few times that modern equipment cant navigate in Emberdark... but why noone tried "old" way? 

Navigator skill seems to be really simmilar to Seeker, and we have confirmation that Seeker can indeed feel Current and Knell, with that and proper trainning Seekers should be able to navigate just fine, basicly all is needet is direction, speed and time of travel, and they will always feel direction.

Seems to me like indeed Malwish are strongest on Scadrial, but Ellendel is significant on his own right - and probably uses access to Metalborn as levarage, so Malwish dont have them in numbers they would want.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

What suprised me the most is probably fact that Malwish seems to not have any Metalborn between them. Also, we heard at least few times that modern equipment cant navigate in Emberdark... but why noone tried "old" way? 

Navigator skill seems to be really simmilar to Seeker, and we have confirmation that Seeker can indeed feel Current and Knell, with that and proper trainning Seekers should be able to navigate just fine, basicly all is needet is direction, speed and time of travel, and they will always feel direction.

They can and do do (heh) that already. What Dusk does is more. Not only can Dusk get a line of bearing on the Knell he can feel it interacting with other landmasses in the Emberdark. So he is good for charting through unexplored regions while Seekers can only keep on course in already mapped regions.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Seekers can only keep on course in already mapped regions.

Well, keeping a course and faithfully recording speed, time and distances sailed  could be used for mapping, it just would require a lot more time, work and resources to find something that way.

OTOH, it might not be impossible for Seekers to learn Dusk's style of navigation in Shadesmar, if they first learned to navigate the seas by traditional Eelakin methods. But for historical reasons, none of the Scadrian peoples had a traditional sea-faring culture... So they just didn't have proper skills or mental framework to come up with the idea.

It is also imaginable that Dusk's ability is stronger than those of the post-Catacendre Seekers, since he was hearing the Current through Rokke's almost constant Copperclouding. Maybe they'd need to be enhanced by A-Duralumin or A-Nicrosil to become sensitive enough, and possibly F-Zinc to be  able to make sense of what they heard. 

@Bzhydack:

It's particularly funny since according to Ed Scadrian stereotype  is:

 

Quote

...you know how they are. Rusting this! Rusting that! I scowl and _throw coins in your face!_”

 

But none of the Scadrians seen in Emberdark actually are Metalborn,  nor do they have personal devices mimicking Allomancy. 

Granted, a female researcher in "The Sunlit Man" had a Steelpushing glove, that seemed pretty awkward to use, since it required the other hand to activate... Pretty far from making Allomancy truly accessible to those not born with it through gadgets, IMHO.

 

Edited July 20, 2025 by Isilel

[lacrossedeamon]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

But for historical reasons, none of the Scadrian peoples had a traditional sea-faring culture... So they just didn't have proper skills or mental framework to come up with the idea. 

Scadrial technically had the Bennet and Nelazan. But it's uncertain how much the Lord Ruler incorporated their cultures into the Final Empire.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

Well, keeping a course and faithfully recording speed, time and distances sailed  could be used for mapping, it just would require a lot more time, work and resources to find something that way.

Precisly. This method is known as Dead Reckoning (sounds like metal band ) This is how Europeans were able to sail throu vast oceans and start colonial empires. With empty map, compass, chronometer and chip log. This is also why mechanical clocks were so advanced in Europe - they were needet for navigation. Also, in Shadesmar it would be even easier than in real world, because there is no wind or currents (except the main one) and waves so unitl something unexpected happens nothing will disrupt your course. And Seekers are super sensitive Investirure users. If competent Seeker can feel what emotions Rioter is enhancing then should be able also detect interferences in Rythm of the Current. But he will need to learn what to seek for. 

[therunner he/him]

I think the dead reckoning method wouldn't work, because Shadesmar is changing and shifting over time. It also reacts to cognition of entities in it (the regular paths being more stable for example).

And finally, some regions of Shadesmar have time dilation going on due to high amounts of Investiture, and you won't necessarily know when you get into the effect.

E.g. at time after WAT, any path going in certain distance of Rosharan Shadesmar mapped out by dead reckoning will be distorted by the time distortion, and will be increasingly less accurate.

5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

And Seekers are super sensitive Investirure users. If competent Seeker can feel what emotions Rioter is enhancing then should be able also detect interferences in Rythm of the Current. But he will need to learn what to seek for. 

Seekers can be quite sensitive, but clearly they are not sufficiently sensitive to map Shadesmar. If they could, Scadrial would already be doing it as it would be massive advantage. They don't, hence they cannot.

Maybe if you enhanced them with spikes and F-Tin, but perhaps not even that.
 

Edited July 21, 2025 by therunner

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, in Shadesmar it would be even easier than in real world, because there is no wind or currents (except the main one) and waves so unitl something unexpected happens nothing will disrupt your course.

 

Though we don't know if the storm experienced by Cakoban and Co. was something unique and tied to a significant event elsewhere in the cosmere, or a "weather phenomenon" of Shadesmar. 

And, of course, unlike iRL if one fails to meticulously track one's speed, time sailed and course at all times when sailing the unSea, one would become hopelessly lost, without any other means to establish current position.

Hm... It occurs to me that Eelakin navigators are bound to fairly quickly discover that other 2 planets of their star system are also inhabited. But how did people get there in the first place, without stable Perpendicularities? And when? 

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I think the dead reckoning method wouldn't work, because Shadesmar is changing and shifting over time.

 

It may shift, but it isn't in constant flux. Otherwise, the routes between planets couldn't have been discovered and trade routes established in the first place. Also, both the arcanists and Xisis thought that the old Iriali map to the First of the Sun could still be valid.

Even routes to the Cognitive reflections of worlds without Perpendicularities, which supposedly shift more, remain stable long enough for the arcanists (Khriss) to come and study them, or for migrations, like Iriali to Lumar and Threnodites to Canticle, to reach them.

IMHO, dead reckoning should absolutely work, there is just the slight problem that early human explorers and migrations shouldn't have had the technology to measure time and speed precisely enough. And also, that before the death of Ambition they wouldn't even have had the Knell/Current for orientation.

Though, maybe dragons carried out some early explorations, their Connections to each other providing orientation points.

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Seekers can be quite sensitive, but clearly they are not sufficiently sensitive to map Shadesmar. If they could, Scadrial would already be doing it as it would be massive advantage. They don't, hence they cannot.

Maybe if you enhanced them with spikes and F-Tin, but perhaps not even that.

But we know Seekers can feel the Knell and the Current. And this should be enough to map Emberdark. But how many Seekers travel throu Shadesmar? We dont see any Metalborn there. Seems to me like Northern Scadrians travel throu Cosmere a lot less than Malwish, so probably noone ever tried to send Seeker (valuable asset in security, what is important in time of war) into unexplored parts of Shadesmar.

Also  as @Isilel mentioned, Scadrial dont have seafearing cultures. Seekers need to learn what they feel. Seeker taken from the street will not understand what he feels in Shadesmar, even if he feels it. It is not Sensitivity issue, it skill issue.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 7/20/2025 at 12:47 PM, Bzhydack said:

What suprised me the most is probably fact that Malwish seems to not have any Metalborn between them. Also, we heard at least few times that modern equipment cant navigate in Emberdark... but why noone tried "old" way? 

1. Shadesmar is non-eukledian. It has to be for the shape and areas of continents in Shadesmar to be correct.
2. Shadesmar is deforming itself. Your routes are changing.

On 7/20/2025 at 12:47 PM, Bzhydack said:

Navigator skill seems to be really simmilar to Seeker, and we have confirmation that Seeker can indeed feel Current and Knell, with that and proper trainning Seekers should be able to navigate just fine, basicly all is needet is direction, speed and time of travel, and they will always feel direction.

Navigators seem to be more specialized compared to Seekers, which are if they are specialized at all, specialized on detecting on of the Metallic Arts. They can't even detect feruchemy.

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Shadesmar is non-eukledian. It has to be for the shape and areas of continents in Shadesmar to be correct.
2. Shadesmar is deforming itself. Your routes are changing.

Navigators seem to be more specialized compared to Seekers, which are if they are specialized at all, specialized on detecting on of the Metallic Arts. They can't even detect feruchemy.

 

Its not like Shadesmar is changing A LOT, or fast. Once established routes are still in use. Old Iriali map is still mostly correct. Shadesmar is mostly euclidean around Perpendicularities, they are stabilization points.

And Seekers are not specializet in just Allomancy. They can detect all forms of kinetic Investiture, but they have troubles with Static Investiture. For example, they can detect Surgescor even summoning of Shardblade. And yes, also Feruchemy in use (while this is very hard)

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MoriWillow

The terms kinetic and static Investiture were introduced in Rhythm of War, but not defined or explained.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

MoriWillow

What are kinetic and static Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. So I've been talking about this for a while, so some of the arcanists out there know. Kinetic is a thing I'm defining that the Investiture is being actively expressed and used, and so it has certain effects. For instance, you're gonna see sand get charged by kinetic Investiture but not necessarily by static Investiture. Static Investiture being Investiture that is stuck in a sphere. If you just walk by with that sphere, particularly if it's in a bag or something, the white sand's not going to see anything. But if you are actively using it to do something, if you have created or are maintaining something, if you are flying or you are using one of the Surges, then we call that kinetic. And kinetic Investiture is going to show up much more easily to someone who can replicate the abilities of a Seeker, who can hear pulses. These are the things the spren notice when someone is using their powers. This is white sand. There are just many things in the cosmere that respond to Investiture being used in some way, and when it is not being used it is harder to hear, locate, or reference.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15308

 

 

 

 

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Argent (paraphrased)

Could a Seeker who was properly trained and experienced detect AonDor or Awakening? Similarly, does a Coppercloud block an Awakener's life sense?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Seeker could sense somebody else using magic not native Scadrial. RAFO on the Coppercloud blocking similar magic.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/166/#e3008

 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

On 7/20/2025 at 5:47 AM, Bzhydack said:

What suprised me the most is probably fact that Malwish seems to not have any Metalborn between them. Also, we heard at least few times that modern equipment cant navigate in Emberdark... but why noone tried "old" way? 

Navigator skill seems to be really simmilar to Seeker, and we have confirmation that Seeker can indeed feel Current and Knell, with that and proper trainning Seekers should be able to navigate just fine, basicly all is needet is direction, speed and time of travel, and they will always feel direction.

Seems to me like indeed Malwish are strongest on Scadrial, but Ellendel is significant on his own right - and probably uses access to Metalborn as levarage, so Malwish dont have them in numbers they would want.

The Malwish don’t seem to have any metal born in era 2 why would this change in era 4 ?

[therunner he/him]

22 hours ago, Isilel said:

And, of course, unlike iRL if one fails to meticulously track one's speed, time sailed and course at all times when sailing the unSea, one would become hopelessly lost, without any other means to establish current position.

Or if something affects the measurement (i.e. time dilation due to Investiture present either in CR, PR in sufficient quantities). 
Or if someone becomes aware of something, creating new parts of Shadesmar.

22 hours ago, Isilel said:

It may shift, but it isn't in constant flux. Otherwise, the routes between planets couldn't have been discovered and trade routes established in the first place.

Trade routes are stable because people travel them.

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Or worse, straying into regions where the ground went incorporeal and turned into the misty nothing they called the unsea. Or . . . the emberdark, people sometimes called that vast emptiness—the Rosharan term for the unexplored parts of Shadesmar


Her ship stayed along the more frequented pathways, where the ground was solid—and had been for millennia. You often encountered other travelers on these patrolled lanes between planets. For Shadesmar, such places were conventional, understood, and safe.

Likely they had to have been discovered first, and then solidified over time. Default state of Shadesmar seems to be the 'unsea', which if traveled enough/thought about enough turns solid into a traversalble region.

22 hours ago, Isilel said:

Even routes to the Cognitive reflections of worlds without Perpendicularities, which supposedly shift more, remain stable long enough for the arcanists (Khriss) to come and study them, or for migrations, like Iriali to Lumar and Threnodites to Canticle, to reach them.

We have zero information on any such routes.
If they are within subastral of planet with Perpendicularity, they would be much easier to travel to, like Ashyn.

But that does not mean they are common.

And Iriali, as I mentioned  have guides that lead them, which does not imply reliable means of navigation to other places.

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IMHO, dead reckoning should absolutely work, there is just the slight problem that early human explorers and migrations shouldn't have had the technology to measure time and speed precisely enough. And also, that before the death of Ambition they wouldn't even have had the Knell/Current for orientation.

I think the simplest evidence against dead reckoning working is the fact that no one is using it to navigate Shadesmar.

If it worked, it would be used. It isn't, so it doesn't.

It might work on sufficiently known places/routes, but not in unsea.

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Hm... It occurs to me that Eelakin navigators are bound to fairly quickly discover that other 2 planets of their star system are also inhabited. But how did people get there in the first place, without stable Perpendicularities? And when? 

Possibly they were there seeded by Adonalsium?

22 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

But we know Seekers can feel the Knell and the Current. And this should be enough to map Emberdark. But how many Seekers travel throu Shadesmar? We dont see any Metalborn there. Seems to me like Northern Scadrians travel throu Cosmere a lot less than Malwish, so probably noone ever tried to send Seeker (valuable asset in security, what is important in time of war) into unexplored parts of Shadesmar.

Well, if it worked, why is no one using it? 

Hearing Knell and Current is not enough to navigate unsea, or find anything in it. You need to be able to detect interferences in the Current, and Dusk is the first person to be able to do that from what we see.

Starling knows that Seekers can feel the Current, but is clearly surprised that he can use it to navigate, which makes it clear that Seekers can't use it to navigate

Quote

“The Knell,” she said. “You feel the Current? Like a Seeker can? I suppose that explains some things. We can sense the Knell with instruments. It would certainly help your people . . .”

“Starling,” he said, “I can feel interruptions in the Current. My ancestors traveled the islands without modern equipment—and one way they did was by noting patterns in the waves. Certain patterns of interference indicated an island was near.” He tapped his chest. “I can feel the same thing here, though the interference tends to add instead of subtract. I can hear objects, like islands, in the Current. I could point you toward a dozen of them right now.”


Her eyes grew even wider. Then she grinned a wicked kind of grin.
“All this time, Dajer had you in his hands . . . And he didn’t realize . . .”
 

Simples explanation is that Seekers simply are not sensitive enough/attuned enough to be able to navigate Shadesmar. If they have issue detecting Feruchemy in use, I doubt they will be able to detect interference of object with Investiture. 
It is known that Seekers can detect the Current, so clearly some would have tried to navigate, but clearly none were succeseful.

Just because they have similar powers, does not mean they are exactly the same. E.g. Windrunner Lashings vs Heavenly Ones Lashings, similar powers, but with different limitations. Same thing likely applies here.

 

Edited July 22, 2025 by therunner

[+Bzhydack he/him]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

The Malwish don’t seem to have any metal born in era 2 why would this change in era 4 ?

Migration and nation- mixing. Scadrial should be in era of globalization.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Well, if it worked, why is no one using it? 

Hearing Knell and Current is not enough to navigate unsea, or find anything in it. You need to be able to detect interferences in the Current, and Dusk is the first person to be able to do that from what we see.

Starling knows that Seekers can feel the Current, but is clearly surprised that he can use it to navigate, which makes it clear that Seekers can't use it to navigate

First, now it will be automated. In modern world, noone is running math manually. It probably exist as backup system in navigation devices that were mentioned, but they are dirupted by Emberdark interferences.

Second, Dead Reckoning definitly was used in the past. Urithiru has valut full of Shadesmar Compasses, and Dead Reckoning was basicly only method of navigation in that time (outside of Invested Skill). Also, Scadrial have booming interplanetary trade during times of Lord Ruler, how they will be able to establish it without good Shadesmar navigation? And there is also tendency of emploing Seekers as Obligators.

Edited July 22, 2025 by Bzhydack
No doubleposting

[lacrossedeamon]

On 7/21/2025 at 12:11 PM, Isilel said:

Hm... It occurs to me that Eelakin navigators are bound to fairly quickly discover that other 2 planets of their star system are also inhabited. But how did people get there in the first place, without stable Perpendicularities? And when? 

Elsecalling Aviar but the species was later lost? I mean we don't even know when the Eelakin lost the knowledge of their own perpendicularity.

[therunner he/him]

19 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Second, Dead Reckoning definitly was used in the past. Urithiru has valut full of Shadesmar Compasses, and Dead Reckoning was basicly only method of navigation in that time (outside of Invested Skill). 

There is no evidence of that at all. 

The compasses found in Urithiru can also be used just to navigate non-Emberdark portions of the Shadesmar, like we see them being used in WAT, and how they are used in Isles.

Their presence does not mean they were capable of navigating Emberdark.

19 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

 Also, Scadrial have booming interplanetary trade during times of Lord Ruler, how they will be able to establish it without good Shadesmar navigation? And there is also tendency of emploing Seekers as Obligators.

Scadrial did not have 'booming interplanetary trade' during TLR.

There was some trade, but that does not mean they were capable of navigation in the emberdark. 
As we see in Isles and elsewhere, moving on established routes is relatively easy. 
But navigating emberdark is basically impossible.

Again, if it was possible previously to navigate Emberdark reliably, why is Starling acting like it is brand new revolutionary discovery that will give large soft power to First of the Sun?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 7/22/2025 at 3:00 AM, Bzhydack said:

Its not like Shadesmar is changing A LOT, or fast. Once established routes are still in use. Old Iriali map is still mostly correct. Shadesmar is mostly euclidean around Perpendicularities, they are stabilization points.

Well, no. To flatten a planetary map without horrible distortions you need to be very un-euklidean.

On 7/22/2025 at 3:00 AM, Bzhydack said:

And Seekers are not specializet in just Allomancy. They can detect all forms of kinetic Investiture, but they have troubles with Static Investiture. For example, they can detect Surgescor even summoning of Shardblade. And yes, also Feruchemy in use (while this is very hard)

Pure sensitivity probably won't help. Wayfinding seems to be based on detecting reflexions of the Grand Knell. That means that you also need spatial resolution. Otherwise the original will just be louder than the reflexions, making them undetectable.

20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

First, now it will be automated. In modern world, noone is running math manually. It probably exist as backup system in navigation devices that were mentioned, but they are dirupted by Emberdark interferences.

You are really opening a can of worms here. Shadesmar works based on thoughts. That means we need to seriously consider that the calculations only work because you make them conciously.

[Isilel]

On 7/22/2025 at 10:52 AM, therunner said:

Likely they had to have been discovered first, and then solidified over time. Default state of Shadesmar seems to be the 'unsea', which if traveled enough/thought about enough turns solid into a traversalble region.

 

Indeed, but none of it could have happened in the first place without a somewhat reliable form of navigation and cartography. Yes, an obviously inferior one to what Eelakin trappers have, much more work/resource-intensive and dangerous, but good enough to eventually discover a lot of places in Shadesmar and establish regular trade and travel routes between them. 

I don't have Arcanum Unbounded to hand, but Khriss did mention studying planets without Perpendicularities from the Cognitive Realm. Which means that someone must have found out how to  get to them and described it reliably enough that scholars were able to travel there.

Also, in "The Sunlit Man" the Threnodites on Canticle explained that they came to that world, travelling through the Cognitive, on purpose, because of it's unique traits. I.e. they knew where they were going, so someone must have discovered and explored it first and given them reliable directions how to get to it. Etc.

 

On 7/22/2025 at 10:52 AM, therunner said:

And Iriali, as I mentioned  have guides that lead them, which does not imply reliable means of navigation to other places.

 

We have seen them having a guide during _one_ mass migration. We don't know if it was typical or not.

There is zero mention of Iriali scouts, who explore the cosmere in search for possible new homelands, like the ones, who first discovered The First of Sun's Perpendicularity, having any guides. And I'd like to point out that not only were these scouts able to get back to their people, but the route documented by them remained valid millennia later.

 

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, if it was possible previously to navigate Emberdark reliably, why is Starling acting like it is brand new revolutionary discovery that will give large soft power to First of the Sun?

 

Because what the Eelakin have is obviously vastly superior? They don't have to search for new points of interest blindly and risk getting hopelessly lost, if they fail to meticulously track their course and speed. They can find and use shortcuts between established locations away from the usual trade routes, and therefore transport goods more swiftly than competition, etc. 

 

9 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Elsecalling Aviar but the species was later lost?

Hm... Perhaps not the Aviar. But some of Cakoban's people may have had such an ability, as long as they had access to investiture. 

But IMHO, it would make more sense for Autonomy's Intent if people on those other 2 planets came to be there independently. Particularly since they are bound to be much colder than First of the Sun. Perhaps she made temporary Perpendicularities for them, as she is wont to do. Or maybe her Perpendicularity used to be on these planets first. Or Adonalsium put them there before the Shattering...

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

. That means that you also need spatial resolution. Otherwise the original will just be louder than the reflexions, making them undetectable.

 

Sounds like something that skilled Tineyes have to do to filter out relevant information from their overall sensory overload. Might be learnable by powerful enough Seekers, who have  proper mind framework for it, provided by learning to navigate the seas without instruments. But it would likely never occur to Scadrians to train them that way, so probably moot. 

Edited July 23, 2025 by Isilel

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 7/23/2025 at 8:49 AM, therunner said:

There was some trade, but that does not mean they were capable of navigation in the emberdark. 
As we see in Isles and elsewhere, moving on established routes is relatively easy. 
But navigating emberdark is basically impossible.

But they still needet to establish those routes! There was a time when EVERYTHING was Emberdark. And yet multiple people from multiple Planets were able to establish routes between them. Nalthis was one of the most prominent centers fo Shadesmar trade, they were literaly sending entire caravans throu Cosmere and they dont have any Invested art that can help them Navigate that we know of... Except of Life Sense that can MAYBE detect Knell (but this is pure speculation). They dont even have Guides, we dont know about any Cognitive Entity from Nalthis.

BTW, Scadrian Subastral is actually pretty simmilar to Emberdark with its Mist Oceans... 

On 7/23/2025 at 9:06 AM, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. To flatten a planetary map without horrible distortions you need to be very un-euklidean.

If we are talking ablot converting Globe to Flat , then maybe. But we are doing this with ours maps for hundreds of years. Also Shadesmar alone (not in relation to the Physical Realm) seems to have at least large portions of euclidean space with overall normal physics. Gravity down. Sun up. Normal 4 directions. It is shaped with thoughts of inteligent beings, and physic is, even in magical Universe, the same for all, and inteligent beings will have the same concept for it.

On 7/23/2025 at 9:06 AM, Oltux72 said:

You are really opening a can of worms here. Shadesmar works based on thoughts. That means we need to seriously consider that the calculations only work because you make them conciously.

  Yeah, but we are talking about thinking machines here. If people see something as inteligent, or with personality, it will be reflected in Shadesmar. How many times you called your computer or car as it would be a person? Personification is simply what we do.

On 7/23/2025 at 5:16 PM, Isilel said:

Sounds like something that skilled Tineyes have to do to filter out relevant information from their overall sensory overload. Might be learnable by powerful enough Seekers, who have  proper mind framework for it, provided by learning to navigate the seas without instruments. But it would likely never occur to Scadrians to train them that way, so probably moot. 

It actually can occur now. They will see Ealakin Navigators, and will try to make their own version of them. Simply to be independent from Drominad (or probably they will just try to bribe one or two).

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

On 7/10/2025 at 7:16 AM, Isilel said:

 

This makes me very worried for the Era 3 books. Mechanical access to the Metallic Arts for personal use was supposed to be widespread in them, which should have nicely distinguished the upcoming trilogy from prior cosmere books, where invested arts had been reserved for the chosen few. Particularly, since on Scadrial those few had to be the winners of genetic lottery. 

As a result, Era 2 books had certain amounts of "idiot plots", since the problems had to be resolved with the powers that the protagonists had been born with. So, everyone "kinda forgot" that Tin Metalborn and Seekers make superior guards, since logical use of those would have impeded W@W's ability to sneak into secret installations. And would have instantly revealed emotional Allomancers affecting crowds in SoS, without Marasi having to deduct anything.

Then medallions and allomantic grenades made their appearance and there was hope of sensible and fun power combinations that wouldn't have required so much contrivance for the protagonists to win.  But, except for in a very limited way with Marasi, it didn't happen. Particularly jarring was that the Ghostbloods, of all people, with their links to the South, had neither medallions nor harmonium-powered devices.

And neither did the Ghostbloods in WaT! Despite Kelsier's acceptance of hemalurgy, despite Mraize almost certainly having spiked Gereh, none of them seemed to possess any Metallic Arts, except for  translation medallions.

The idea of non-lethal hemalurgy and possibly even wholly synthetic spikes has been introduced in TLM... But with Sanderson now seriously thinking about writing a cyberpunk era, this will clearly be relegated to it. 

However, in Emberdark, hundreds of years later, there is still no sign of any further developments in terms of hemalurgy, medallions and other individual devices. Still, the same  translation ones and a few weight ones were mentioned, when they tried to restrain the Dakwara. Yes, they are Mawlish, they have few Metalborn, but Mawlish had no problems producing heat and weight medallions at industrial scales _before_ Era 2! Surely, if anyone should have been provided with Metallic Arts enhancements, an expeditionary force looking for a new Perpendicularity to a valuable planet should have been top of the list!

I understand that Sanderson probably wants to save Metallic Arts evolution for the Scadrial books proper, but I am worried that he is drip-feeding them too slowly, since now they'll have to be spread over 3 Eras. And also, that the extremely limited use of personal Metallic Arts by future Scadrians in the Secret Projects will prevent him from making Metallic Arts as widespread and accessible for personal use as past WoBs about the "Modern Era" Scadrial suggested that they would be. And as a result, we'll be back to "genetic superheroes" as protagonists.

I would like to point out that excessive use of  investiture draws Entities, and so this particular group of Scadrains may be "running dark" so to speak, to avoid in wanted attention in the Emberdark.

[therunner he/him]

On 7/23/2025 at 5:16 PM, Isilel said:

I don't have Arcanum Unbounded to hand, but Khriss did mention studying planets without Perpendicularities from the Cognitive Realm. Which means that someone must have found out how to  get to them and described it reliably enough that scholars were able to travel there.

But planet without perpendicularity is not necessarily in a system without Perpendicularity. 

Edit: Or in an unmapped system.

For all we know she could have been studying Ashyn, which is still in Rosharan subastral, and so easy to navigate to.

That one off-hand sentance is not particularly strong piece of evidence, in face of the entire book IoTE repeatedly stating that navigating Emberdark reliably is basically impossible.

On 7/23/2025 at 5:16 PM, Isilel said:

We have seen them having a guide during _one_ mass migration. We don't know if it was typical or not.

Cuicesh announces "I am to be your guide for the Fifth Journey", and the Iriali immediately understand that this is a call to the Long Trail. There is nothing suggesting it is atypical, in fact their behavior suggests that this is how it usually goes.

But even if not, conversely you have no evidence that Iriali do guide themselves, and so they are at most not evidence either for or against ability to navigate in Emberdark.

On 7/23/2025 at 5:16 PM, Isilel said:

There is zero mention of Iriali scouts, who explore the cosmere in search for possible new homelands, like the ones, who first discovered The First of Sun's Perpendicularity, having any guides. And I'd like to point out that not only were these scouts able to get back to their people, but the route documented by them remained valid millennia later

No it was not valid, the map didn't even lead to perpendicularity as it was supposed to, but to a different island altogether! 

The map lead them hundreds of kilometers from where it was supposed to. 

And that is with perpendicularity stabilizing the subastral.

So if anything, this shows that non-traveled pieces of Shadesmar even relatively near to perpendicularity drift up to hundreds of km!

On 7/23/2025 at 5:16 PM, Isilel said:

Because what the Eelakin have is obviously vastly superior? They don't have to search for new points of interest blindly and risk getting hopelessly lost, if they fail to meticulously track their course and speed. They can find and use shortcuts between established locations away from the usual trade routes, and therefore transport goods more swiftly than competition, etc. 

But with modern technology tracking speed and course is mostly trivial. 
So why is no one using it to navigate. 

Not to mention that IRL dead reckoning suffers from inevitable drift due to inaccuracies, so you have to use something else to re-fix your position if you actually want to travel anywhere. And that part is not possible in Emberdark.

The obvious answer is that dead reckoning effectively does not work in Shadesmar, due to the aforementioned factors.

On 7/24/2025 at 5:26 PM, Bzhydack said:

But they still needet to establish those routes! There was a time when EVERYTHING was Emberdark. And yet multiple people from multiple Planets were able to establish routes between them. Nalthis was one of the most prominent centers fo Shadesmar trade, they were literaly sending entire caravans throu Cosmere and they dont have any Invested art that can help them Navigate that we know of... Except of Life Sense that can MAYBE detect Knell (but this is pure speculation). They dont even have Guides, we dont know about any Cognitive Entity from Nalthis.

BTW, Scadrian Subastral is actually pretty simmilar to Emberdark with its Mist Oceans... 

We don't know enough about early Cosmere to say how those were established. 

For all we know Endowment helped with their creation, or Adonalsium set them up. 

Or dragons helped.

Or the Invested Art Cakoban was using was more common.

Routes existing in the past does not mean dead reckoning worked, as it couldn't anyway due to drift and inability to refix your position.

Quote

If we are talking ablot converting Globe to Flat , then maybe. But we are doing this with ours maps for hundreds of years.

And you might notice that some points on are very distant on map, despite being next to each other IRL (e.g. polar regions, or some oceans). 

Shadesmar by necessarity is like that, so it horribly deforms IRL space to flat plane.

Edited July 26, 2025 by therunner

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 7/25/2025 at 9:37 AM, therunner said:

No it was not valid, the map didn't even lead to perpendicularity as it was supposed to, but to a different island altogether! 

That's actually not true. We never get to know if this map is fully accurate. Dajer had just vague region to scout, and Starlink was intercepted before reaching destination. They just assumed Perpendicularity was there, because of Dakwara.

On 7/25/2025 at 6:00 AM, KnightSkye said:

I would like to point out that excessive use of  investiture draws Entities, and so this particular group of Scadrains may be "running dark" so to speak, to avoid in wanted attention in the Emberdark.

Their ship can provide enough Investiture for whole base and superweapon. Few Allomancers will not change their energy signature much.

On 7/25/2025 at 9:37 AM, therunner said:

And you might notice that some points on are very distant on map, despite being next to each other IRL (e.g. polar regions, or some oceans). 

Shadesmar by necessarity is like that, so it horribly deforms IRL space to flat plane.

But this will matter only if we want to use Physical Realm map to map Shadesmar.