On A Certain Taln Theory

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Following Book Five, some have theorized that the weapon Taln used against Cultivation in an attempt which left his soul warped is a Dawnshard, and that its aftereffects are why he held firm (example). One common response I have seen is that this would weaken the symbolism of him never breaking. I would like to present a different angle: it does, and this is good.

A huge part of every character's arc has been accepting that everybody breaks sometimes. If Taln is Just That Good™, it cuts a hole in this theme.

Let's take Kaladin as an example: Over the past two books he's had to come to terms with the fact he can't save everyone and he needs to heal instead of destroying himself trying. But what if he knew that before him stood living proof that if he did push himself harder, sacrifice even more of his well-being, wear himself down further, he truly could save everyone? Would he have ever grown?

Or look at how the fandom treats the other Heralds for giving up after enduring two and a half thousand years of war and torture. Do they get respect or at least sympathy for what they went through? No, they're reviled because no matter how much weight they bore, Taln "proves" that they just weren't good enough, didn't care enough to keep going. (I'm hoping Book Five's emphasis on their experiences will shift this, though I haven't seen much discussion of them since it came out to be sure yet, but at least beforehand people were vicious about their "weakness".)

Taln holding out in part because of magic rather than purely force of will does weaken the symbolism, but perhaps that's because it's a symbol which should be weakened. And it doesn't change the fact he signed up for the Oathpact to spare others the pain, or change how much he cares about helping people while on Roshar, or reduce the suffering he went through. It just makes him more human.

[Way of Kings Prime characterization]

Spoiler

It would also fit with his inferiority complex. Might this be part of why he was so willing to throw himself into losing battles time and time again, because he believed that he didn't deserve the praise and that blatant disregard for his own life was the only way he could ever live up to the reputation others gave him? Maybe this is even part of why he forgave the other Heralds, because he felt he deserved the betrayal for "cheating" on the torture? There's a lot of character potential if the theory is true.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

I'm not so sure about this for a wide variety of reasons. While I agree with you on the symbolism being a little off on Taln never breaking, I doubt that he could have had his hands on a Dawnshard - there's simply no way to explain him having it. Since Honor gave power to the Heralds, any weapon Taln used would have to be given by Honor. Honor would not have access to the Dawnshards, and unrestricted surgebinding would be more than enough to scar someone's soul.

That said, this doesn't preclude magical goofiness with Taln's spiritweb being the root cause of his willpower - unrestricted surgebinding would be more than enough to cause that.

However, I don't feel that from a story standpoint cheapening Taln's achievements retroactively would be a particularly strong plot point. I do, however, suspect that in the back half of SA he'll fail/break somehow, so that he can be imperfect like the rest of the heralds.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

38 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

While I agree with you on the symbolism being a little off on Taln never breaking, I doubt that he could have had his hands on a Dawnshard - there's simply no way to explain him having it.

We know from the Stormfather that the Dawnshards were used in the destruction of Ashyn, and Taln got his "weapon" from Kalak, an Ashynite Surgebinder. (This doesn't necessarily mean Kalak was the Dawnshard previously, we've seen they can be stored in objects.)

Spoiler

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

More broadly we also know that the Dawnshards were once well-known on Roshar, with the ancient histories being rife with mentions and the Poem of Ista referencing someone with one.

Spoiler

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

How the Dawnshards got to Ashyn and Roshar in the first place is of course an open question, but it seemingly did happen.

38 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Taln used would have to be given by Honor. Honor would not have access to the Dawnshards, and unrestricted surgebinding would be more than enough to scar someone's soul.

Taln shows disdain for Surgebinding, so I don't think his weapon was directly related.

Spoiler

Taln looked up from the horses, and something in Dalinar twisted as he saw the man's smile. Open, free of any pain or fear. "Nale?" he exclaimed, his belly jiggling as he jogged over. "You’re glowing. I thought you hated Surges."

...

Taln narrowed his eyes at him. "What? Still frustrated I lost the weapon you gave me, Kalak?" He patted the horse, then thumbed over his shoulder. "That's the foreign king, I see. And you’re all glowing. You aren’t going to set the ground on fire, are you?"

(That said, while I do think the theory is decently likely I don't think it's certain. This post was less trying to argue that it was definitely true and more looking at the implications for the story in the hypothetical scenario where it is.)

38 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

However, I don't feel that from a story standpoint cheapening Taln's achievements retroactively would be a particularly strong plot point.

He still agreed to join up to spare anyone else the pain, he still chose to go back every time, he still sacrificed himself defending those who needed it whenever he Returned, he was still scarred by four and a half thousand years of uninterrupted torture. Whatever edge he may have doesn't change who he fundamentally is as a person or the awful things he chose to bear, just turns him from a myth into a man.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Personally, I don't see the appeal of everything needing to be flawed and fallible.  In my opinion, it massively cheapens Taln and lessens the series to have him break.  The moral absolutism and idealism of Taln NOT breaking is interesting in itself as a subversion of the expected "everybody fails sometimes" lesson.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

@#1 Taln Fan you should see this  

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Following Book Five, some have theorized that the weapon Taln used against Cultivation in an attempt which left his soul warped is a Dawnshard, and that its aftereffects are why he held firm (example). One common response I have seen is that this would weaken the symbolism of him never breaking. I would like to present a different angle: it does, and this is good.

A huge part of every character's arc has been accepting that everybody breaks sometimes. If Taln is Just That Good™, it cuts a hole in this theme.

Let's take Kaladin as an example: Over the past two books he's had to come to terms with the fact he can't save everyone and he needs to heal instead of destroying himself trying. But what if he knew that before him stood living proof that if he did push himself harder, sacrifice even more of his well-being, wear himself down further, he truly could save everyone? Would he have ever grown?

Or look at how the fandom treats the other Heralds for giving up after enduring two and a half thousand years of war and torture. Do they get respect or at least sympathy for what they went through? No, they're reviled because no matter how much weight they bore, Taln "proves" that they just weren't good enough, didn't care enough to keep going. (I'm hoping Book Five's emphasis on their experiences will shift this, though I haven't seen much discussion of them since it came out to be sure yet, but at least beforehand people were vicious about their "weakness".)

I agree, I think Jezrien is a great character and very heroic, but he broke, and so is "flawed," at least according to the fandom, same with Nale (tho he has other problems) and the rest of the heralds, and I think that could be a powerful arc in his book coming to terms with a failure. But there is something inherently fascinating with the exception, the Herald that did not break, one who held through pure force of will.

I'll continue my thoughts later, I need to go.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Personally, I don't see the appeal of everything needing to be flawed and fallible.  In my opinion, it massively cheapens Taln and lessens the series to have him break.  The moral absolutism and idealism of Taln NOT breaking is interesting in itself as a subversion of the expected "everybody fails sometimes" lesson.

But... Everybody does faill sometimes right? Why would we want to subvert that, when that itself is a hard truth to swallow? 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Following Book Five, some have theorized that the weapon Taln used against Cultivation in an attempt which left his soul warped is a Dawnshard, and that its aftereffects are why he held firm (example). One common response I have seen is that this would weaken the symbolism of him never breaking. I would like to present a different angle: it does, and this is good.

A huge part of every character's arc has been accepting that everybody breaks sometimes. If Taln is Just That Good™, it cuts a hole in this theme.

Let's take Kaladin as an example: Over the past two books he's had to come to terms with the fact he can't save everyone and he needs to heal instead of destroying himself trying. But what if he knew that before him stood living proof that if he did push himself harder, sacrifice even more of his well-being, wear himself down further, he truly could save everyone? Would he have ever grown?

Or look at how the fandom treats the other Heralds for giving up after enduring two and a half thousand years of war and torture. Do they get respect or at least sympathy for what they went through? No, they're reviled because no matter how much weight they bore, Taln "proves" that they just weren't good enough, didn't care enough to keep going. (I'm hoping Book Five's emphasis on their experiences will shift this, though I haven't seen much discussion of them since it came out to be sure yet, but at least beforehand people were vicious about their "weakness".)

Taln holding out in part because of magic rather than purely force of will does weaken the symbolism, but perhaps that's because it's a symbol which should be weakened. And it doesn't change the fact he signed up for the Oathpact to spare others the pain, or change how much he cares about helping people while on Roshar, or reduce the suffering he went through. It just makes him more human.

[Way of Kings Prime characterization]

  Reveal hidden contents

It would also fit with his inferiority complex. Might this be part of why he was so willing to throw himself into losing battles time and time again, because he believed that he didn't deserve the praise and that blatant disregard for his own life was the only way he could ever live up to the reputation others gave him? Maybe this is even part of why he forgave the other Heralds, because he felt he deserved the betrayal for "cheating" on the torture? There's a lot of character potential if the theory is true.

am i the only one who didnt realize Taln was an actual charcter and not just @#1 Taln Fan

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

3 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

am i the only one who didnt realize Taln was an actual charcter and not just @#1 Taln Fan

...

Did you miss them calling Talenel by Taln? 

If I remember correctly, we're getting Taln flachbacks eventually, so I think he will have some kind of weakness (maybe a Torment) that will be explored then.

We didn't see him destroy the Fused with his bare hands, but...

Yeah. I agree. If not a Dawnshard, maybe something else.

No ordinary human could have this level of power.

[RedBlue]

I’m on board with the theory that Taln had a Dawnshard and now has some kind of anti-breaking compulsion.

It makes some disparate pieces fit together very neatly. It makes sense with the weird, scattered references to Dawnshards being used (or known) in the deep past. It makes sense as part of a human plot to kill a Shard. It explains how Taln was able to hold out for so long. It explains why Brandon is introducing the concept of Dawnshards here in this series, instead of waiting for them to become relevant in Dragonsteel.

It also explains why the other Heralds view abandoning Taln as such a huge betrayal. Because if Taln was able to say no at any time, where’s the betrayal? If Taln chose to stay on Braize, that’s essentially him giving tacit consent to the other Heralds’ plan for him to shoulder the burden alone. But if Taln was unable to refuse, that’s what makes it a terrible betrayal.

Incidentally, I don’t see breaking under torture as a character flaw, any more than getting hungry or tired is a character flaw. It’s how human bodies work, not a personality problem or a bad decision. Taln can be an awesome hero without being inhumanly resistant to pain.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

8 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

...

Did you miss them calling Talenel by Taln? 

If I remember correctly, we're getting Taln flachbacks eventually, so I think he will have some kind of weakness (maybe a Torment) that will be explored then.

We didn't see him destroy the Fused with his bare hands, but...

Yeah. I agree. If not a Dawnshard, maybe something else.

No ordinary human could have this level of power.

I am on board with the theory that @#1 Taln Fan is actually Taln, he emerged from the books and entered the shard. He only told his true identity to the head moderators, and thats one of the reasons he became a moderator. And then, when deciding his username, he decided to use his own name because he is his own biggest fan.

[Oraiyu]

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A huge part of every character's arc has been accepting that everybody breaks sometimes. If Taln is Just That Good™, it cuts a hole in this theme.

Not necessarily. He could be an exception, making the theme more complex and compelling in the long run. 

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Or look at how the fandom treats the other Heralds for giving up after enduring two and a half thousand years of war and torture. Do they get respect or at least sympathy for what they went through? No, they're reviled because no matter how much weight they bore, Taln "proves" that they just weren't good enough, didn't care enough to keep going. (I'm hoping Book Five's emphasis on their experiences will shift this, though I haven't seen much discussion of them since it came out to be sure yet, but at least beforehand people were vicious about their "weakness".)

This would be the aforementioned "long run". From WoK, I had mixed feelings about the Heralds abandoning their mission. While I did feel like they possibly should have held longer - I recognized that they experienced war and torture for thousands of years. These revelations from WaT did a lot to help me empathize emotionally and align how I felt with what I intellectually knew. 

As such, it's OK for there to be a exception. 

That said, I do think that Taln's extreme fortitude being a result of something like a Dawnshard is downright juicy. It bolsters a theme yet adds complexity to a character in a way that I find intriguing.

Just because Taln could persevere, doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing extreme torture, the pressures of war and watching civilization crumble over and over and over.

As you've said:

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He still agreed to join up to spare anyone else the pain, he still chose to go back every time, he still sacrificed himself defending those who needed it whenever he Returned, he was still scarred by four and a half thousand years of uninterrupted torture. Whatever edge he may have doesn't change who he fundamentally is as a person or the awful things he chose to bear, just turns him from a myth into a man.

I would argue that not being allowed the "release" of breaking is more painful. 

Personally, I could go either way. But I think I find Taln possessing a Dawnshard much more compelling overall. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

16 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Personally, I don't see the appeal of everything needing to be flawed and fallible.  In my opinion, it massively cheapens Taln and lessens the series to have him break.  The moral absolutism and idealism of Taln NOT breaking is interesting in itself as a subversion of the expected "everybody fails sometimes" lesson.

We know that Taln didn't break. It's more about whether he was capable of breaking or not. I think that (whether it was the influence of a dawnshard or his unique version of heraldic madness as a cognitive shadow) Taln was wired in a way that he just was not going to give in under any circumstances. The same way that Hoid can't harm someone even if he wants to, or the way that Kalak is incapable of making confident decisions. I think it would have been harder for Taln to give in and break, regardless of the torture, than it was for him to hold fast and refuse to yield.

[QuantumAce]

16 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Personally, I don't see the appeal of everything needing to be flawed and fallible.  In my opinion, it massively cheapens Taln and lessens the series to have him break.  The moral absolutism and idealism of Taln NOT breaking is interesting in itself as a subversion of the expected "everybody fails sometimes" lesson.

But Taln is already presented as flawed. Not breaking cost him his sanity. If he had been even partially coherent the Kholin forces would have been more prepared for the current return, which would have saved thousands of lives and given them a better chance at protecting key territories. Taln not breaking may have been a net positive, but it still came at a pretty high cost. 

[Lord Stormer]

I never bought the idea that Taln never broke due to sheer will. Re-reading past notes when I first read Oathbringer Chapter 38 (where the Stormfather explained the Oathpact), I thought the Heralds deliberately avoided complete victory at Aharietiam so to not be obliged for Isolation. Essentialy, a loophole in the contract. Few of Odium's acolytes are left to live in secret (that was my old Mishram theory). Taln is at Braize not trying to hold the gates of Damnation, so torture is not emphasized. It was a bad theory that turned out obviously false.

It did disappoint me that Taln held on due to the "warping" of his soul by an item that was strongly speculated to be a Dawnshard, but I would react similarly if "Taln didn't break" lives up to truth. Afterwards, all is left for Brandon to handle. This is a question of theme, and since mental suffering is a main driver of the Stormlight Archive, it is imperative for him to resolve this the best way.

Talking Cosmere mechanics, the soul is not as easy to be affected by Investiture. Kaladin's brand remains long after his First Ideal. It's a good thing. Great literature is after all, one that acts as the best mirror to ourselves, and fantasy incorporates flexible what-ifs to deliver its message more effectively, without relegating the importance of the character. From the One Ring to Nightblood, we've heard powerful items that corrupt. If fortitude is to be a major theme on the back half, Brandon should really avoided Investiture as a mean to overcome mental challenges. After all, Limitations > Powers - he wrote it himself.

For Taln's story to be satisfying, in one sense his merit must be meaningful, to inspire. In another way, his character needs to be realistic enough to be understood, as Brandon has been realistic so far. And most imporantly, how can he be an worthy archetype to the theme of agency and will that are so central not only to the Stormlight Archive, but many other Brandon's works.

To start, I consider these points important, especially when Taln is planned to be a flashback character:

How does that power of the Dawnshard, or the obligations of holding it, motivates Taln's decision to remain steadfast? Does has the freedom of choice while under the effects? Did he endure despair that enticed him to find the wrong way out, like the rest of the Oathpact?

Edited June 15, 2025 by Lord Stormer

[Jult]

While I agree that the theory "Taln once used a Dawnshard and his Torment prevented his breaking" has a lot going for it, and even seems pretty likely... I still kinda hope it's wrong. The only evidence that I could offer to the contrary is that Taln believed that he failed when he returned to Roshar. So, if it was impossible for him to break.. He, at least, doesn't seem to know that it was impossible. Which would be odd. We don't have a lot of examples of former Dawnshard holders experiencing Torments. But the 2 that we have seen seem pretty aware of what their Torment is.

I, for one, hope that Taln authentically never broke - just sheer willpower without any Torments propping him up. I think it would be a very interesting case for Kaladin to deal with. Because Taln does need help. But how do you fix the man who never broke? How do you tell someone "it's not the end of the world if you break", when they spent thousands of years in a situation where breaking literally would have been the end of the world? Taln was put into such a unique and unfair position. And I think exploring the mind of a Taln who wouldn't break in that position will be more interesting than exploring the mind of a Taln who couldn't break.

 

[Argenti he/him]

On 6/11/2025 at 11:56 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But... Everybody does faill sometimes right? Why would we want to subvert that, when that itself is a hard truth to swallow? 

It could be a lesson about the indomitable human will: humans are capable of incredible acts of strength and bravery when we have to, and recognizing that you can do amazing things even when pushed to your limits is just as important as acknowledging that it's okay to fail. It's like The Little Engine That Could.

 

6 hours ago, Jult said:

While I agree that the theory "Taln once used a Dawnshard and his Torment prevented his breaking" has a lot going for it, and even seems pretty likely... I still kinda hope it's wrong. The only evidence that I could offer to the contrary is that Taln believed that he failed when he returned to Roshar. So, if it was impossible for him to break.. He, at least, doesn't seem to know that it was impossible. Which would be odd. We don't have a lot of examples of former Dawnshard holders experiencing Torments. But the 2 that we have seen seem pretty aware of what their Torment is.

I, for one, hope that Taln authentically never broke - just sheer willpower without any Torments propping him up. I think it would be a very interesting case for Kaladin to deal with. Because Taln does need help. But how do you fix the man who never broke? How do you tell someone "it's not the end of the world if you break", when they spent thousands of years in a situation where breaking literally would have been the end of the world? Taln was put into such a unique and unfair position. And I think exploring the mind of a Taln who wouldn't break in that position will be more interesting than exploring the mind of a Taln who couldn't break.

 

I agree, it would be a far more interesting story than just a cheap cop-out of a dawnshard's torment. It's lazy writing, and frankly, boring.