Oraiyu

This is absolutely a possibility I have thought about, and I think it's a valid option in the conversation. It's possible. However, If we assume that if the OG person's own spiritweb indeed dissolves and the current Cognitive Shadow is not the same person practically speaking, I disagree. I would think that there's little chance the Investiture that made it up will be the same as what now Invests the Cognitive Shadow. Imagine it like a cup of water spilled into a bucket, then using water from the bucket to fill the cup. It's possible some molecules will be the same, but practically impossible that all the molecules are the same. BEOYND PARTYYYY!!!!!

Interesting question. I'll need to think on those. (but probably I should have done so before, right? ) ... After having though about it, I have some quarter-bakes ideas, but this thought-exercise requires a lot more marination... Really cool approach!

Interesting question. I'll need to think on those. (but probably I should have done so before, right? )

Yes it does! Thanks much

Good point. Maybe he maintained his Connection with the windspren because he did not really want to retract, and also only did so for an honorable reason. (so retracting his oaths might even have been, in a way, aligned with his oaths!)

I did a while back but was still nervous. I relied on the wikis and lore media for background when needed. But now that I've reread it, it seems that you assert that the Prose version and GN present all the important stuff in a lore-accurate way. I think I'll give it a shot. (wanna finish my Mistborn reread first, tho ) Is the GN omnibus better lore-wise? I couldn't understand from your post if lore was a focus of the fixes...

Thanks! So good to be here. I'm concerned about getting confused with regard to the lore, especially if important aspects of source material are not Canon. As you've already seen, I like to get into the nitty-gritty. Do you think there are options where that won't be enough of an issue to worry about? Also - I'd rather read than listen to an audio book. Thanks.

Are you saying that the collection of both wind & gravitational spren, while not enough on their own, was enough to reach that "critical mass" to be able to form armor? What is the nature and mechanics of this critical mass? Also - if a Radiant needs to progress to the fourth ideal to develop enough of a Connection with their armor spren, how would that help Sig in terms of the wind spren? He'd abandoned the Wind runner ideals. If anything, I'd think that his Connection with them had started to degrade?

Not necessarily. He could be an exception, making the theme more complex and compelling in the long run. This would be the aforementioned "long run". From WoK, I had mixed feelings about the Heralds abandoning their mission. While I did feel like they possibly should have held longer - I recognized that they experienced war and torture for thousands of years. These revelations from WaT did a lot to help me empathize emotionally and align how I felt with what I intellectually knew. As such, it's OK for there to be a exception. That said, I do think that Taln's extreme fortitude being a result of something like a Dawnshard is downright juicy. It bolsters a theme yet adds complexity to a character in a way that I find intriguing. Just because Taln could persevere, doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing extreme torture, the pressures of war and watching civilization crumble over and over and over. As you've said: I would argue that not being allowed the "release" of breaking is more painful. Personally, I could go either way. But I think I find Taln possessing a Dawnshard much more compelling overall.

I respectfully disagree. I don't think it's implied from that annotation. This is true. Point taken.

Interesting. So there was some type of plan However, to me, the implication is pretty clearly that Leras made sure there were people invested in such a way to be able to hear the tone/pulses. There's no indication that the tone/pulsing itself was applied by Leras and not just a natural attribute of the perpendicularity.

Leras influenced "prophesies" for the purpose of guiding a Terrisman to maintain the prison. I don't remember ever reading that the tone was specifically applied by him to summon a Seeker. Where have you seen this?

Good point... Which makes me wonder if part of the reason he possessed the Dawnshard for as long as he did - and apparently only dropped it out of extreme necessity - was about being powered up enough to take in multiple types of Investiture. I will say that I'm not sure how expanding your spiritweb would help if the types of Investiture you hold interfere with one another. It may help in the sense that those different ancillary forms of Investiture would make up different parts of the spiritweb that are "distanced" from each other (for lack of better terms) so as not to cause problems. However, they would also permeate your Cognitive and Physical aspects, so the issues would likely present there. What do you posit would be the way it would help?

So would you say Hoid had to be very clever in how he collected Invested arts? I mean, he became an Elantrian - one of the most invested entities in the Cosmere outside of Shards - after he'd already become a Radiant and a First-generation Mistborn, among others...

I originally found it hard to think Pattern would have any sort of awareness in that state. Awareness seems to be a Cognitive attribute. Then I remembered Homunculus Wit and his Infinite Recursion (One of my favorite characters, BTW) I'll need to consider the nature of awareness is in the Cosmere and why it can be separate from the Cognitive. I've a few quarter-baked fledgling ideas, but I'd need to develop them more before sharing. Here are my views on Adonalsium before the Shattering as it relates to individual Shards: VERY good point. What if "The Beyond" is nothing more than the SpiritWeb returning to the Spiritual, and perhaps becoming unified with the Cosmerical SpiritWeb to some degree? I like it Another point I'll need to ponder... Very interesting!

As @CognitiveShadow said, good point about Kel being drawn to the Beyond more than once. Great observation about the differences in perception between Zahel & Kaladin, and how it would shape their interpretation of an unclear, ambiguous reality. It also speaks to and elaborates on my original point about continuity of consciousness. I'd referenced this idea by bringing up the game SOMA in my original post. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that thought experiment might be connected to this one. Since my original post, I've been digesting the responses and thinking some more. I've come to realize that I was hanging on to some notions that were limiting. I believed that in the Cosmere, the Ego of a person necessarily continues to the Beyond. I also assumed that a CognitiveShadow is what's left when the person gets pulled to the Beyond. On top[ of that, I was also trying to apply as much logic and concrete ideas to an area Brandon purposely left ambiguous. I also realized that the definition of a Cognitive Shadow & what happens when one is pulled to the Beyond can be independent discussions. Once I let go of those hang ups (not to say that they don't actually apply), and accepted that we'll probably never know much of the way this all works, I was able to further develop my approach. As @LewsTherinTelescope asserted, defining a Cognitive Shadow as a being leaving it's Physical self and maintaining it's Cognitive aspect regardless of whether the Investiture is the OG self or what Invested it does seem to be the simpler approach. As an aside, It also does make sense to me that one's SpiritWeb passes through he Spiritual on it's way to the Beyond. (I wonder if there are Spiritual Shadows ) This approach is bolstered when we consider how everyone is made up of investiture - even their SpiritWeb. In terms of Cognitive Shadows, Who's to say the Investiture bound and shaped by Identity and Connection is different from ancillary Investiture (such as that bourn by a Radient or Elantrian. All this being the case, I'm much more comfortable and at ease exploring various sides of the discussion regarding whether a Cognitive Shadow is the OG or a fossil, and at what point the transition, if any, was made. In addition, while it's not clear, I am leaning towards the possibility that a fossil-type Cognitive Shadow can experience a continuity of consciousness from the OG. To finish off, I'd like to present a deeper aspect I've been toying with: In terms of the Ego (the "person themselves") - Is that a construct of the SpiritWeb, or is it something distinct from it? Even with replaced Investiture allowing the Cognitive Shadow to exist, perhaps it's still the same person. That's a tantalizing tease about whether an Ego exists as an entity distinct from the SpiritWeb. It sounds like Pattern pretty much had no distinct SpiritWeb at that point, or he wouldn't be existing as everything. The SpiritWeb limits and makes distinct as much as it Connects, as it's made up of Nodes, a distinct Identity and a limited number of connections. Infinite connections can not be called a distinct SpiritWeb. So WHAT experienced existing as everything at once? Yet another mystery and food for thought.

At the end of the book, Painter paints Yumi on the wall and convinces her to come back. Painter applies perception when combating nightmares by painting an alternative existence for them. As Cognitive shadows, they are forced to conform. [Spoiler SA] Did Painter's perception play any role in helping Yumi, as a Cognitive Shadow, regain consciousness and transform back? Or was he just helping her with a very heartwarming pep talk, while she did all the work mechanically speaking?

It does indeed. I should have caught that nuance. Thank you

Brandon has confirmed that the Well was emitting the pure tone of Scadrial As Scadrial was created by both Preservation and Ruin together, I would think that this tone would be a hybrid of their tones. This would be just like Warlight, which is a hybrid of Honor & Odium's tones. I also assume that the rhythm (such as Vin heard) would be a hybrid as well. But as the Well contained the power of Preservation, wouldn't it produce the pure tone of Preservation?

True... But this kind of circles back to my original theory. The Cognitive shadow wouldn't really feel like it is a new, different entity. And don't forget - a CS is created by Investiture filling the "mold" left behind by a highly Invested person leaving the Cognitive - including their personality. As such, it is essentially, basically the same person - both to us and to them.

Anyone who enjoyed reading Yumi...

Apologies. I wasn't aware that I did, but I'll be more careful moving forward. I asserted that I recognized this to be the case in my original post. This whole thread got away from me. My fault, probably. All I was positing was that whether something persists in the Cognitive or gets drawn to the beyond (or both) - it will experience a continuity as if it were the OG by virtue of its experience and/or memories - even if that soon after gets cut short for whatever reason. I was not trying to assert any side of the soul/self debate as definitive, and am fully aware that this has deliberately been left vague by Brandon. Not faulting anyone. I lean towards this interpretation as well I should not have let this thread get away from my original postulation. What I wanted to present was the continuity of existence experienced by whatever is around after death, and the idea that if there are 2 such entities - such as in the theoretical case of a conscious being in the Beyond and a Cognitive shadow, they would both experience a continuity as of they were the OG. I am NOT saying that this is what happens, Im just using that theory to explain my point. And yes, I know a Cognitive shadow can realise it's not the OG (like Vasher does). I am only talking about the continuity experienced.

I just want to say that regardless of what gets pulled, I still theorize and strongly believe that when a Cognitive shadow gets created, it does not have the OG consciousness, but a copy generated by the concentrated investiture. It does have the "shape" of the OG consciousness, and it will therefore experience continuity from it's point of view. I do not really have a strong opinion as to what happens to the OG consciousness when it's drawn to the Beyond. There's really no indication either way that I saw...

This was towards the end, after Kel was already was a Cognitive shadow (IMHO). The only line that gives me pause is "Unless he wanted it to". That sounds like Brandon is expositing through Kel. The thing is, I feel the same way about Vasher's convo with Kaladin. So either Kel is right or Vasher is. I'm gonna side with the consistently highly Invested worldhopper with centuries of experience and Cosmere-awareness.

Thanks! I admit I do not have proof that the pull of the Beyond can not be stopped. I do, however, believe that in every instance the pull of the beyond was not stopped - even when someone didn't want it to - even when a Shard tried to stop it.