Oraiyu

I respectfully disagree. Nothing about your logic asserts that you are a Cognitive shadow during transition. If you are a cognitive shadow, then what is transitioning into the beyond? I don't think it says anywhere that there is some sort of split, or at least some sign that one happened, where the person becomes the Cognitive shadow before they transition. We see throughout that no one, not even Shards, can stop the pull of the Beyond. Oh, it can be delayed, but there's no indication it can be stopped. Consider, though, in Secret History, where Kel was unconscious while Fuzz Preserved him. While not proof, there's still room to say there was a split, and Fuzz is preserving Kel by forcing the formation of his Cognitive shadow. IIRC Preservation himself tells Kel that The Lord Ruler would just stick around longer as opposed to completely resisting the pull, and he was a highly Invested splinter. (I'll try to find the quote when I come home) Lastly, if one is a Cognitive shadow when while they transition, when did that change happen? How did it happen? I am of the opinion that the OG person transitions, while Cognitive shadows do not.

I am wide open to the possibilities and ideas you present. I've thought about the nature of the soul in the Cosmere quite a bit - to no clear, defined conclusion or understanding. More and more I'm considering just not using "soul" at all, rather using more specific terms like Spiritweb and mind / Cognitive aspect. Brandon, in the WoB I mentioned - does point out that this is a topic debated in-universe. I specifically did not mention a soul, partially for reasons along the lines of thought similar to what you've put forth. The thing is, despite this, whenever being drawn to the beyond is clarified a little, it seems that the mind and/or Cognitive aspect is drawn to the Beyond, and the Spiritweb is either drawn with it or is dissolved. (Consider how Kelsier experienced it as a lessening of self, and Yumi downright had trouble forming cohesive or cognizant thought). And so - I believe that one's OG consciousness is either drawn to the Beyond (or dissolved into it, as you pointed out as a possibility). A cognitive shadow's consciousness and self-awareness is formed by concentrated investiture conforming to the mold. Now, does the soul remain with the Cognitive shadow as Sanderson insisted some in-universe theorize? The response to that would be "what is the soul exactly". Based on what I've heard, he's intentionally vague about that.

In the beginning of Secret History, as Kelsier is being drawn into the Beyond, Preservation shoves him into the Well (His perpendicularity) and prevents Kel from being drawn further. He is even restored from whatever the Beyond was doing to him until then. I assert that this is when he became a Cognitive shadow, as before then he was just a regular dead person in transition. Now, it’s pretty clear from the way many perceive a Cognitive shadow that a it is not the person themselves. It’s instead a sort of imprint in the Cognitive of what made up the person + lots of Investiture. Upon thinking about it - I’ve come to the following theory: A CS is an imprint of all that made up the person until then - including their memory, etc, built until the time of transition. From the Cognitive shadow’s POV - the whole experience would probably be seamless. I assert that OG Kel (whatever that is) actually was drawn fully to the beyond. What we’re following in the book is an almost seamless experience from the POV of the Cognitive shadow. Preservation wasn’t Preserving actual Kelsier, because he could not really counter the pull of the Beyond. But he did Preserve Kelsier in the next best way - by helping him imprint a Cognitive shadow. So there’s a version of Kelsier in the Beyond (whatever that means) and a version of Kelsier who continues the story in secret History. This concept was sparked in part by the game SOMA [Spoilers] I’m interested to hear what y’all think about this idea.

Never said they weren't OK, just that they wouldn't have the power granted by the removed spike, (which is indeed what happened to Spook), and that their spiritweb would probably remain damaged or altered due to the nature of Hemalurgy being of Ruin (though perhaps temporarily?) (We don't know what Spook's status would have been if Harmony hadn't fixed / leveled him up.) Oops Thanks See the spoiler I put in the post Great minds n all...

It could be that Hemalurgic spikes actively maintain the spliced segment of spiritweb. But the spiritweb is a resilient thing - barring outside stimuli, it can bounce back to the way it was either immediately or over time. We've seen that explained more than once right in the books, I believe. (Don't remember where). Now, certain arts or sources of spiritweb alteration might permanently alter the spiritweb. A Shard's former Vessel remains a Splinter - probably carrying some vestiges of their Vessel-hood. [SPOILER TSM] But those lasting changes are either small & vestigial, or were applied by a SUPER powerful force, and most of the benefits do not seem to last, at least as far as we know. It could be that Hemalurgy damages the spirit web enough so it remains scarred or deformed, but it doesn't seem that the recipient retains any power if the spikes are removed. (Which is how we get creepy spiky Inquisitors for ultimate creepy menacing coolness ). So one spike might actively repel any attempts by another spike to overwrite it's bit of spiritweb.

Thanks Not sure I understand what you're saying. Would you mind clarifying?

From the Coppermind: As I understand it, the spikes literally rip out the part of the spiritweb associated with the donors power + a bit of associated Identity. On application, it forcefully splice it with the recipient's spiritweb and overwrites their Identity, applying the donors bit of Identity to the extent and in a way that the recipient can use the power.

As I read and discuss more and more, I'm increasingly convinced Adonalsium was not merely a being comprised of 16 parts. It was more like a single, whole entity consisting of a spectrum of Intents. To illustrate: Consider the electromagnetic spectrum. It's not made of parts, rather it's one big gradient. There's almost no segment that is truly blue or yellow or x-ray, there is only the spectrum. Those colors (wavelengths, really) are there, sure, but their true manifestations are microscopic, probably just about infinitely small. What we - meaning the layman not talking in values - would practically call the blue in the electromagnetic spectrum is really a swath of infinite colors of the blueish variety - on one side fading yellow, and on the other fading red. Consider this musing by Odium himself: [WARNING: Minor Wind & Truth spoilers] An organic whole is going to function far, far better than a conglomerate of mostly disparate parts. I'd say it's the difference between functional and not truly functional. In terms of good vs. not so good: Adonalsium seems to have held back from preventing the shattering - sacrificing itself - in order to prevent unimaginable cataclysm, as @SpartanBrigade mentioned above. Adonalsium was also described by the Wind as caring: (Though admittedly, as a splinter of Adonalsium, the Wind might possibly be a little biased. I think it's probably at least mostly right in this instance though) So I'd like to think Adonalsium leaned towards good.

I've searched around, and have not found anything clear about the relationship between the Primal and Kumar Aethers. Obviously we have some information from Tress & TLM. But has anything else come to light regarding how or why they split off? Are they still connected? So far, the clearest tidbit I've found outside the aforementioned books is this WoB

As a programmer myself, I find this all fascinating. Thanks

That's what I meant. To clarify - Does he mean that Elantris was made by the original inhabitants to be a higher-level function based in many Aon instructions? Did I get that right?

So you're saying it's more that the Dor bursts through via the filter/key/conduit that is the Aon, just that its flow is directed wherever the Aon function directs it? [SPOILER MB] Huh. Got it. Also interesting that, as you said, the Elantrian's extreme invested nature is just a state manufactured by the founders of Elantris just to make their use of AonDor more effective and powerful. I wonder if the same can be accomplished with other invested arts... [SPOILERS MB & SA]

But an Elantrian does peirce a realm. I guess it depends if Brandon meant to be exclusive in his definition, or if any piercing of realms is technically a perpendicularity. Honestly, the WoBs you quoted don't, IMHO, rule out what the application of a limited concentration of investiture might do. An Elantrian may focus and express a given amount of their innate investiture when they draw Aons. That might be enough to peirce through to the Cognitive, but not to the Spiritual. With Gravity - the same rules apply regardless of concentration amount. This results in some objects having some features of black holes but not others. Earth itself causes enough spacetime curvature to keep the moon in orbit. Yet it has a relatively reasonable escape velocity and time dilation that's basically unnoticeable. A black hole, however, has an escape velocity that makes impossible for just about anything to escape, as well as time dilation that is so extreme a distant observer sees things close to the black hole just stop at the event horizon. As far as astrophysicists can discern or hypothesize, neutron stars have some really weird features that black holes don't have, yet both are governed by the intensity of gravity caused by a high density of mass. What's the difference between a high concentration of investiture that bridges/punctures 3 realms by melding them into a sort of singularity, as opposed to a lesser concentration doing the same to only 2 realms?

Thanks However, I would say that just because it's limited does not necessarily negate the fact that it's a perpendicularity of sorts. Depends how you define "perpendicularity" in technical terms, I guess. To me, a perpendicularity is a bridging of realms allowing for passage between them. The details might be different for various types or magnitudes of the perpendicularity. Consider what the Coppermind says about what happens when [SP: Stormlight Archive]

How does an Elantrian's innate investiture allow them to perform AonDor? Does it allow them to push through the Physical & open a mini perpendicularity to the Cognitive, as well as shaping said perpendicularity to suit their needs? Is this the only reason for them to be personally invested? Also, is this why Elantrians need to be so heavily invested?

I meant that the realms have Investiture field(s) Kind of what I was thinking, yeah Thanks! Wouldn't the fields permeate all 3 realms (albeit, perhaps, in different ways)?

Sounds kind of like Brandon wants Investiture as a whole to be like quantum field theory. Particles are kind of like excitements / concentrations in the field (gross oversimplification even for my amature level research of the subject). Perhaps there's "Ambient" Investiture aligned with all Intents, or that there's some sort of overlapping or gradient field structure. Locally there might be an excitement or concentration that's more aligned with a shard or 3 than others (I don't think Adonalsium had 16 distinct parts. Probably was more like a spectrum). I'd like to think that the Wind, Stone and Night are like this. Of course, a given shard may either find a locale more aligned to its intent. That was always more or less part of the Shard's investiture, but the vessel quite possibly was not yet aware of it. Of course, a Shard might be able to force alignment with it's intent or strengthen the fields associated with its intent. So much is unknown, but this is a surface level explanation of my current conjecture.

I'm halfway through my re-read. The first time around I read through it far more quickly - I wanted that juicy lore and story progression. I left nuance and thinking points through for post-read discussions and this re-read. At this point, even though I'm not finished, I did have time to think and digest. And so I feel ready to post this review. I would like to summarize my thoughts on some key characters and points. Feel free to ask me how I feel about any part or character I left out. Lore Top tier. A first and second person view of Shardic vessels and the Shards themselves and what makes them tick. What the Spiritual realm is like. Witnessing the 2 different Oathpacts. The healing of Deadeyes into something new. So many loose ends tied and deeper rabbit holes discovered. Story / Characters Interludes Peak Sanderson. They were very well written and provided so much insight and quite a few cool or intriguing scenes. Adolin / Azir Campaign Again - peak Sanderson. We see just how much he cares for his troops and others. We see him struggle to step out of his father’s shadow and persevere despite constantly feeling like a failure - making the effort to concentrate on his strengths & wins. His relationship with Maya was great stuff. And he experiences what it’s like to be on the front lines in the most excruciating, stressful scenarios - but does so with so much determination. And I found whole Unoathed business to be really exciting - enough to overlook the corniness. The whole Oath vs Promise debate is really intriguing. I just want to say that I started this book thinking “If Adolin is not an Edgedancer a-la Maya by the end of this book, Ima be mad.” He wasn’t, and I’m thrilled at how Sanderson did end up finishing that arc. My only gripe is the copy/paste “Maya sends good vibez” that comes every so often. I feel like he could have made that more substantial and given some sort of progression. Taravangian / Odium Amazingly written. Such depth! What a resolution to a character arc, while kind of launching the next one. Kaladin / Sil / Szeth / Heralds / Shinovar While I think it was too plodding and drawn out, and Kaladin came off at times as eye-rollingly cliche, shallow and preachy, I think their journey - inner and outer - was intriguing. The Szeth arc - lore and all - was especially eye opening and really fits with his persona even as it was in WoK. I feel like I finally understand him. Insight into what the Heralds are now going through was also intriguing. Dalinar / Navani / Gav / Honor / Tanavast / Stormfather / Cultivation / Spiritual Realm While it’s hard to understand or visualize, I think I see what Brandon was going for when depicting the Spiritual Realm, and I like it. This whole arc was a little bit too stretched out in my opinion. I did like Dalinar’s growth and change in perspective. Seeing the historical events teased until this point in their full detail was lore-tastic! The only downside - and I hate to say this - Gav was a whiny drag, and what became of him felt unearned (in the storytelling sense). I know that he’s an extremely traumatized child, and my heart goes out to him. But putting him in this arc really put a damper on it, and did not do Gav’s own journey justice. Tanavast rubbed me the wrong way , and I felt like this was one of Sanderson’s poorer treatments - until I realized that this was the point! He was a reactive fool who just juggled situations as they came without making real use of that immense wisdom1. Once I saw that, my opinion of how he was handled became far more favorable. Same with the Stormfather, as he was basically implanted with Tanner’s consciousness. Cultivation was a well-written counterpoint. It was interesting to see how she was finally revealed to not be as above evil as we thought she was - as she was ready to kill innocents to get TaravOdium to stand down. The idea of Honor, and the Shards in general, as being just ideals instead of the ultimate good was an eye opener and an amazing paradigm shift. Portraying Honor’s own budding consciousness as an idealistic child without nuance was such a great idea and practically begs for a whole new world of plot ideas. As I mentioned above with Adolin - the whole Oath vs Promise debate is really intriguing. One of my favorite characters in this book is Homunculus Wit with his infinite recursions. Venli / Listeners / Leshwi / Rogue Fused / Chasmfiends The continuation of Venli’s arc and that of Leshwi’s, the rogue Fused, their relationship with the listeners and the lore of the chasamfiends really caught my interest. What we got of it was well done, to be sure. HOWEVER, it was severely undertreated. I’d rather have a lot of unnecessary bloat from other parts be used for fleshing out this arc and exploring the lore and relationships here. Shallan / Renarin / Relain / Spiritual Realm IMHO one of his most poorly executed arcs and character treatments. I’m sorry, but thats how I feel. Shallan was kinda cool, but I felt like it was the same old same old. Sanderson’s treatment of Renarin here possibly turned him into my least favorite character in this story, possibly in the Cosmere as a whole. The way he was written made him feel more like a stubborn, self-centered child instead of someone on the spectrum who’s struggling to just cope and manage living life and really trying to see other people’s perspective. Sanderson wrote Steris amazingly, so I know he can do better - and that just made my disappointment more acute. That said, I did like Relain, though - and while I could probably have countered quite a few of his arguments against Humans, I do see his point and respect him for it. Coming to understand BAM a little bit was pretty cool. Conclusion I really liked this book. There was plenty of plodding, and parts and characters I was less than fond of. All in all, though - I think Brandon did a fine job. As for ranking - I’d put it third after WoR and WoK. RoW follows it very closely though.

Allomancy: Favorite Aspect: End-Positive Era 3: Steel sight for use in night vision Feruchemy: Favorite Aspect: Hard to steal stored attribute Era 3: Awakened metalminds for computing Era 3: Generational metalminds (bequeath attributes as inheritance by making use of partial un-keying) Hemalurgy: Favorite Aspect: Abilities can be given to anyone Era 3: Micro-Hemalurgy for use with medical / therapeutic transplants. Imagine drives for abilities just like a blood drive. We could store up healing for use during intense, dangerous surgery. Perhaps collect bits of sense-enhancement for the blind or hearing impaired. I'm sure that if I gave it more thought, I could add or even change some things, but here is my list for now.

Thanks OMNOMNOMNOM (But only if there's chocolate syrup)

Hiya Onironte After reading Wind & Truth? I don't think I would take any. I am firmly of the belief that attributes are tools to be used in the best situation for them, and are to be moderated per that situation. I find myself averse to being locked in to the rigid totality of any given Shard's Intent. I looked through the list and for each Shard, Even with reasons to take ones I would choose, I also see reasons how the Intent could get out of hand or even be wrong. I'd probably go the Hoid route and refuse, then start collecting means of accessing each Shard's magic. (Though probably not for his reason). If I had to choose? Off the cuff, I'd probably be most likely to take Cultivation. I feel like I most connect with the idea of helping people reach their full potential through cultivating their inner strength and attributes, as well as pruning what's holding them back.

Why not both You got my brain gears turning. I'll need to get back to you on this.

Hiya Wraith The ration bars for sure. I have an aversion to gore. So while I love chicken, I would not want to actually slaughter one unless desperate. Hiya Trusk'our Allomancy is, by far, my favorite. I understand the drawback of relying on a supply of specific metal solutions. But Hemalurgy might require the same if Allomantic abilities are transferred, along with a heaping side of gore and death (if anything significant is to be gained). Feruchemy is also limited to what you put in, and you gotta be miserable for quite a while to do so.

Hey Thanks for your reply and direction. It seemed to me at first that this was the best place for this question based on the description, but I will take your direction into consideration. My friend, as well as others I've asked, were giving me the answer they believed in Although I do not regret skipping WS to finish my Cosmere re-read, I am certainly now thinking about reading it eventually. Thanks for the link to the page showing the different methods of reading WS! Good to know that I seem to be thinking along or close to the right lines. Thank you very much for this insight and direction This is great! I'll study this

In my research into the soul in the Cosmere, I came across this post: https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/70160-what-is-a-“soul”-in-the-cosmere/ Very enlightening. However, I was wondering: Brandon asserts that each person is a node (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6209). As everything has a soul, I think it goes without saying that each thing is a node. However, each person and thing is made of parts. People have limbs, Tables have wood pieces, and everything is made of Axi. I propose that each node is, itself, a sort of more tightly backed bundle of Nodes and Connections - a sub-Spiritweb if you will. What do you all think? Am I on the right track? Am I totally off? And if so, what IS a node and why doesn't it take into account the connected parts? Thanks