Aluminum Hemalurgy is actually insane

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

Quote from the coppermind:

Quote

 Aluminum
Removes all powers

Yes, this is what you think it is. Stab someone with a alluminum spike, and  Stormlight & Elantris Spoilers:

Spoiler

hey look, a Knight Radiant. Stab. Healing? Nah. Just DIE. . Oh, cute. An elantrian. STAB. Oh a twinborn? Imagine being hard to beat. STAB.

You get the gist. I feel like scadrians are going to weaponize this really really fast. (Especially with guns). Any thoughts?

Edited March 24, 2025 by CoderDrag0n8

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

14 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Quote from the coppermind:

Quote

 Aluminum
Removes all powers

Yes, this is what you think it is. Stab someone with a alluminum spike, and hey look, a Knight Radiant. Stab. Healing? Nah. Just DIE. . Oh, cute. An elantrian. STAB. Oh a twinborn? Imagine being hard to beat. STAB.

You get the gist. I feel like scadrians are going to weaponize this really really fast. (Especially with guns). Any thoughts?

I've always considered aluminum hemalurgy to be the most effective way to slay anyone in the cosmere, the problem? 

A. you have to get close enough.

B. If they have armor or other protection (4th Ideal knight radiants) then you can't do it

C. (This may not be correct) You have to position the spike in just the right place, like all other hemalugry.

[Entr0pic He/him]

47 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Quote from the coppermind:

Yes, this is what you think it is. Stab someone with a alluminum spike, and hey look, a Knight Radiant. Stab. Healing? Nah. Just DIE. . Oh, cute. An elantrian. STAB. Oh a twinborn? Imagine being hard to beat. STAB.

You get the gist. I feel like scadrians are going to weaponize this really really fast. (Especially with guns). Any thoughts?

An aluminum spike gun would be op. The only problem would be sourcing the spikes.

[Treamayne]

55 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Yes, this is what you think it is. (Spoilers for Stormlight and Elantris)

Spoiler

Stab someone with a alluminum spike, and hey look, a Knight Radiant. Stab. Healing? Nah. Just DIE. . Oh, cute. An elantrian. STAB. Oh a twinborn? Imagine being hard to beat. STAB.

 

 

This is the Mistborn Forum, you need to Spoiler tag all non-Mistborn references, please. Otherwise, ask a mod or admin to mive this to Cosmere Discussion where references to more than one Shardworld are allowed (as long as the work is no longer in the spoiler period) - you can use "report post" in the three-dot menu to do this.

- - - - -

Question is, where are you going to get a bunch of people to kill to add a Hemalurgic Charge to your Aluminum Spikes so you have them to use against other invested opponents. Also, how will you store them to keep the charge from leaking out? Stormlight Spoilers:

Spoiler

Excuse me Mr. Radiant, let me pull out this jar of blood so I can grab my stored spike to make this a fair-ish fight again. . .

WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

WeiryWriter

Hemalurgic spikes lose power unless they are in a person’s body (or immersed in blood), does that body need to be living, or would a corpse suffice? If so, at what point in the decomposition process would the spikes cease to be protected? When they are no longer encased in flesh, before, after?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't put a specific number or date on it, but I'd say as long as the blood itself would be viable if moved to a living body, it will work.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

Quote

yulerule

If a spike has gone too long without being stored in blood, will it completely lose its charge?

Brandon Sanderson

It will never completely lose its charge.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

 

Edited March 24, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

58 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Question is, where are you going to get a bunch of people to kill to add a Hemalurgic Charge to your Aluminum Spikes so you have them to use against other invested opponents. Also, how will you store them to keep the charge from leaking out?

I'm curious, why do you believe the aluminum needs to be pre-Invested?

If you're trying to use it to remove Investiture from enemies, isn't that fulfilled by the charging aspect?

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm curious, why do you believe the aluminum needs to be pre-Invested?

If you're trying to use it to remove Investiture from enemies, isn't that fulfilled by the charging aspect?

Because every other listed effect is what a charged spike conveys. If aluminum "spike" removed all powers without having a Hemalurgic Charge, then Wax would have lost both of his abilities the first time he was shot with an Aluminum bullet. It does not fit pattern for uninvested Aluminum to function as a "remove all abilities" spike when gaining a charge, rather than being the effect of a Charged Spike.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Because every other listed effect is what a charged spike conveys. If aluminum "spike" removed all powers without having a Hemalurgic Charge, then Wax would have lost both of his abilities the first time he was shot with an Aluminum bullet. It does not fit pattern for uninvested Aluminum to function as a "remove all abilities" spike when gaining a charge, rather than being the effect of a Charged Spike.

Not how that works, the most crucial aspect in Hemalurgy is Intent. The person shooting Wax had no Intent. If I shot a Metalborn with an aluminum bullet but didn't intend on using Hemalurgy, it would just be a regular aluminum bullet. Hemalurgy doesn't just happen on its own, you need to know what you're doing, there is no evidence that aluminum is an exception.

I've said this in other threads so I'll say it here. Automatic Aluminum guns in the hands of someone with the Intent to use hemalurgy will kill almost any Invested opponent in the Cosmere. Hitting the right Bindpoints won't be an issue if you're shooting enough bullets.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/Him]

51 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Not how that works, the most crucial aspect in Hemalurgy is Intent. The person shooting Wax had no Intent. If I shot a Metalborn with an aluminum bullet but didn't intend on using Hemalurgy, it would just be a regular aluminum bullet. Hemalurgy doesn't just happen on its own, you need to know what you're doing, there is no evidence that aluminum is an exception.

I've said this in other threads so I'll say it here. Automatic Aluminum guns in the hands of someone with the Intent to use hemalurgy will kill almost any Invested opponent in the Cosmere. Hitting the right Bindpoints won't be an issue if you're shooting enough bullets.

THE OVERPOWERED ALUMINUM GUN DREAM LIVES ON!!

[Duxredux he/him]

A big caveat here that may complicate the spike gun is if the Hemalurgic property of Aluminum only functions with pure Aluminum. I assume Hemalurgy follows the same alloy ratios that Allomancy uses, and that effectiveness diminishes with varying alloys. The Aluminum bullets the Set had created were not pure Aluminum but an alloy designed for better ballistic properties while retaining immunity to Pushes and Pulls. 

If you are required to use the proper alloy ratios for Hemalurgy, that means pure Aluminum, which would be a much lighter and easily deformed bullet with poorer range and penetration - as Wax notes when discussing the Vanisher's ammo with Ranette. Modern bullet proof vests should handle pure aluminum small arms fire just fine. If you're using heavy weapons, then it becomes a question of whether Aluminum with its drawbacks is a better option than conventional ammo or AP rounds - particularly if you're going with the spray and pray approach. Sure Invested defenses may not handle Aluminum as well, but conventional defenses should do just fine. 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Not how that works, the most crucial aspect in Hemalurgy is Intent.

Fully aware that intent is required.

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Automatic Aluminum guns in the hands of someone with the Intent to use hemalurgy will kill almost any Invested opponent in the Cosmere.

Disagree. "Here, let me kill you with this spike that will, oh, by-the-way remove your powers when it kills you" makes no sense in context of the rest of Hemalurgy - That's what every spike does - take away a power when killing the sacrifice. It's only the addition of a charged spike that specifically changes the body to survive the application of a spike - and that's the only time "removes powers" makes sense with the rest of what we know (based on current data).

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Disagree. "Here, let me kill you with this spike that will, oh, by-the-way remove your powers when it kills you" makes no sense in context of the rest of Hemalurgy - That's what every spike does - take away a power when killing the sacrifice. It's only the addition of a charged spike that specifically changes the body to survive the application of a spike - and that's the only time "removes powers" makes sense with the rest of what we know (based on current data).

Aluminum is a weird metal by default, it's able to block Investiture completely, yet it can be used for the Metallic Arts, it can be Burned Allomantically, it can be filled Feruchemically, and it can be used Hemalurgically.

I honestly have nothing to say as evidence because there simply is no evidence yet until we see it in use. All I can point out is that it's description on the Hemalurgy table, unlike Chromium, doesn't say 'might' nor has a question mark, so in-universe it does what it says it does.

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

A big caveat here that may complicate the spike gun is if the Hemalurgic property of Aluminum only functions with pure Aluminum. I assume Hemalurgy follows the same alloy ratios that Allomancy uses, and that effectiveness diminishes with varying alloys. The Aluminum bullets the Set had created were not pure Aluminum but an alloy designed for better ballistic properties while retaining immunity to Pushes and Pulls. 

If you are required to use the proper alloy ratios for Hemalurgy, that means pure Aluminum, which would be a much lighter and easily deformed bullet with poorer range and penetration - as Wax notes when discussing the Vanisher's ammo with Ranette. Modern bullet proof vests should handle pure aluminum small arms fire just fine. If you're using heavy weapons, then it becomes a question of whether Aluminum with its drawbacks is a better option than conventional ammo or AP rounds - particularly if you're going with the spray and pray approach. Sure Invested defenses may not handle Aluminum as well, but conventional defenses should do just fine. 

Well, that balances that out. I guess it would be too easy. So, Shardplate would be an effective defense against Aluminum bullets. 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Aluminum is a weird metal by default, it's able to block Investiture completely, yet it can be used for the Metallic Arts, it can be Burned Allomantically, it can be filled Feruchemically, and it can be used Hemalurgically.

 

Do we know it can be filled? We know you can store it, but can you get it  back afterwards?

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Aluminum is a weird metal by default, it's able to block Investiture completely, yet it can be used for the Metallic Arts, it can be Burned Allomantically, it can be filled Feruchemically, and it can be used Hemalurgically.

 

To be fair, it's still an open question whether any of the three Metallic Arts are capable of making Investiture stick to aluminum, which would otherwise be unique in the cosmere.  WOB says that compounding aluminuim wont be useful, which I think is because Aluminum metalminds dont ever actually gain investiture so there's no Charge to compound.  Similarly, I can't think of any logical Spiritweb chunk you'd need to Intentionally rip out to get an aluminum spike to work, but Im open to suggestions. 

Otherwise it seems like Aluminum still just grounds out Investiture rather than being affected by it, which would explain why it's feruchemcial power is all about Blanking something with no examples of tapping it (so far), and its hemalurgic power is all about blocking All Powers at once by the same general virtue of Investiture not playing well with Aluminum present in the equation, especially if spliced directly and realmically into the spiritweb. 

 

Edited March 24, 2025 by Quantus
grammar...

[therunner he/him]

It is not as insane, simply because hitting a bind points is really difficult. Not for nothing is hemalurgy done on restrained subjects.

The only examples of someone being spiked in a fight were both guided by Ruin (Spook with Pewter, and Marsh spiking that Atium misting), regular person won't be able to do that, especially not with a gun, most people are not Wax (and I doubt even he is sufficiently precise for this to be reliable tactic).

So theoretically yes, it is insane. Practically, no, because basically no one is precise enough to take advantage of that on the fly.
(Note that you couldn't even use Atium to guide the spike, since Aluminum wouldn't show up ).

@JustQuestin2004

Quote

I've said this in other threads so I'll say it here. Automatic Aluminum guns in the hands of someone with the Intent to use hemalurgy will kill almost any Invested opponent in the Cosmere. Hitting the right Bindpoints won't be an issue if you're shooting enough bullets.

I sincerely doubt that will be the case. For one, TSM spoiler

Spoiler

Why wouldn't Scadrians simply shoot the Nomad in the ship if it was the powerful? At that point Aluminum is ultra cheap.
Simple answer is that they couldn't, because it is not how it works.

Edit:
From a Doylist perspective, Brandon has already nerfed things that ended up distorting things too much (Compounding not being possible for Hemalurgists) so there is no reason to expect that this power would be exception.

Edited March 25, 2025 by therunner

[alder24]

On 3/24/2025 at 4:28 AM, Treamayne said:

Because every other listed effect is what a charged spike conveys. If aluminum "spike" removed all powers without having a Hemalurgic Charge, then Wax would have lost both of his abilities the first time he was shot with an Aluminum bullet. It does not fit pattern for uninvested Aluminum to function as a "remove all abilities" spike when gaining a charge, rather than being the effect of a Charged Spike.

Aluminum is known to be different in Cosmere. It can't hold Breaths, it can't hold Stormlight, it can't hold any other investiture. There is no reason for aluminum to work differently in Metallic Arts. There is no confirmation that Aluminummind holds investiture when used instead of just blanking your identity with no way to tap it back. An aluminum spike can work in the same way - it removes all powers from your spirit web, without being invested itself. It doesn't even make sense for an aluminum spike to have a need to be charged before it's used to remove powers - what charge would it even need when all it does is the same thing as any other spike that's used on all donors. Aluminum is different and we have to take this into consideration. The more I think about aluminum, the more I realize that aluminum holding a charge in Metallic Arts would be inconsistent with how aluminum works in Cosmere. Why would you expect aluminum to be investable by Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, but not by Breaths and Stormlight? We will probably see how an Aluminummind works in Era 3, from that we can extrapolate it to Hemalurgy.

Spoiler

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[Quantus he/him]

56 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Aluminum is known to be different in Cosmere. It can't hold Breaths, it can't hold Stormlight, it can't hold any other investiture. There is no reason for aluminum to work differently in Metallic Arts. There is no confirmation that Aluminummind holds investiture when used instead of just blanking your identity with no way to tap it back. An aluminum spike can work in the same way - it removes all powers from your spirit web, without being invested itself. It doesn't even make sense for an aluminum spike to have a need to be charged before it's used to remove powers - what charge would it even need when all it does is the same thing as any other spike that's used on all donors. Aluminum is different and we have to take this into consideration. The more I think about aluminum, the more I realize that aluminum holding a charge in Metallic Arts would be inconsistent with how aluminum works in Cosmere. Why would you expect aluminum to be investable by Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, but not by Breaths and Stormlight? We will probably see how an Aluminummind works in Era 3, from that we can extrapolate it to Hemalurgy.

  Hide contents

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Agreed, especially since Aluminum being off-limits for Investiture effects is apparently considered such a continuity element that Peter wont allow Brandon to make the shardblade guards out of aluminum.  

Spoiler

Quote

 

Questioner

You know the sparring guards, for the Shardblade training, the guards they put on the Shardblades. Are they made of aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson

So, they are not. Peter will not let me make them made out of aluminum. He's my continuity editor, he keeps me honest. I tried to get them to be aluminum, but there are reasons why they can't be. So we had to make them their own weird little thing, unfortunately. But you could make a sheath out of aluminum for a Shardblade that would work.

He keeps me honest, so it's good, but I did try to fit them in that way.

Oathbringer Edinburgh signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

 

 

 

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

On 3/28/2025 at 9:07 AM, Quantus said:

Agreed, especially since Aluminum being off-limits for Investiture effects is apparently considered such a continuity element that Peter wont allow Brandon to make the shardblade guards out of aluminum.  

I'm still of the belief that Feruchemical aluminum is storing identity. Whether it can be actually tapped or not remains to be seen, but in the Ars Arcanum it still specifies that aluminum stores identity, instead of something like "drains" or "lessens". 

And when the mechanical functions of metals within a metallic art operate differently, it is generally specified. On the Hemalurgy table, there is a distinction that aluminum removes all powers, but other metals steal powers/attributes. So I'm inclined to believe that the identity is in face being stored in the aluminum.

Which, if that is the case is extremely frustrating. In the real world scientific community, this is an called falsifiability. That is, a theory can be proven wrong with just one example to the contrary. In this case the theory that "aluminum cannot be affected by investiture or be part of investiture effects" would be disproven by "aluminum works as a metalmind for identity". Which would mean that a more specific explanation is needed.

Even just Allomantic aluminum may be an example of falsifiability, because even though its effect is negating other investiture, it is still being used as a part of an invested art. Just swallowing aluminum won't cause your metal reserves to disappear, you have to actually burn it. Allomantically burning any metal is an effect of utilizing innate investiture. So there are investiture-aluminum effects.

As for what the actual properties of aluminum are relative to investiture? The general accepted take I've seen is that aluminum blocks/resists investiture. Some properties we see aluminum have include:

• Hide the contents of a lined space from the sight of shards
• Protects against emotional allomancy
• Does not have an atium shadow
• Is described in @alder24's posted WoB as "inert"
• Allomantic aluminum will "negate and suck out" investiture when burned
  • Spoiler

    Kurkistan

    If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

    *laughter*

    [clarification on the question]

    Brandon Sanderson

    They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

    Kurkistan

    So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

    Brandon Sanderson

    Sure.

    Kurkistan

    That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Sure.

    Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

(Spoilers for examples outside of Mistborn)

Spoiler

• Restrict certain axis of motion in a conjoined fabrial
• Prevent spren and shades from entering a lined space
• Prevents aether spores from being killed by silver (which has the effect of disrupting/interrupting investiture)
• Does NOT prevent stormlight from leaking from gems, because it leaks directly into the spiritual realm
• Cannot be awakened
• Cannot be affected via forgery
• Cannot be cut with a shardblade (unless thin enough to break with the wielder's strength)
• Cannot be affected by Adhesion or Gravitation surges
• CAN by created via soulcasting, but CANNOT be soulcast into something else

My first thought was that aluminum prevents investiture moving into/out of the spiritual realm, but then there's this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

If you encase a gemstone in aluminum, will that prevent, or only greatly reduce, the speed of Stormlight leakage?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the Stormlight will still leak out of the gemstone. Assume that you’re like, creating a perfect shell for it. The Stormlight is still eventually just gonna make its way into the Spiritual Realm. The aluminum can't act as a Stormlight containment, necessarily, unless the Stormlight is persistent enough that it's not just evaporating into the Spiritual Realm. So, for instance, you could use some sort of device like this to encase a sapient spren who is already locked into the Physical Realm. But Stormlight’s just eventually gonna evaporate due to Stormlight evaporation, which is changing realms. The aluminum's not going to stop that.

Dragonsteel Nexus 2024 (Dec. 5, 2024)

Given all this, my best guess on what aluminum actually does is that is an insulator for kinetic investiture (i.e. investiture that is being actively used or expressed), preventing invested arts from passing through or even affecting the metal.

Spoiler

That would explain why it can't be affected by things like allomancy, lashings, shardblades, soulcasting, forgery, etc., but also doesn't seem to affect infused gems, aether spores, or any other sources of static investiture.

Metalminds are an example of static investiture. The attributes being stored within a metalmind doesn't actually affect the metal, it's just stored inside its structure. If this is true, then aluminum metalminds wouldn't break the other rules of aluminum-investiture interactions.

Regarding the spiking of aluminum, because aluminum has that strange interaction with investiture anyway, what if the removal of abilities is done by spiking someone outright? Not by killing them I mean, what if hammering a regular aluminum spike with hemalurgic intent into someone, and leaving it in as you would with an invested spike, effectively puts a plug on their powers? When you normally spike someone, you're stapling on a part of someone else's spiritweb to theirs. What would happen if instead you introduced something to their spiritweb that prevents the flow of investiture? It may prevent all of their powers from functioning. The powers are still there, but they can no longer be used because of the aluminum stopping you from channeling any kind of kinetic investiture? If the bind point was in a normally fatal location (like the heart or spine), then their choice would be either permanent loss of powers, or death. Maybe the aluminum actually steals powers, maybe it shears them from the spirit web, or maybe it just suppresses them, but the resulting spike would be effectively the same. Whether that spike has some stolen power inside it or not, there's no way to check for it because of its blocking properties, and spiking yourself with it would just cause you to lose your own abilities.

We likely won't have a clear answer or know how exactly it works until Mistborn Era 3, as however the excisors work and how the unsealed metalminds are created will likely explain a lot about identity manipulation, and by extension Feruchemical aluminum.

[Xanpheon]

On 10/21/2025 at 7:39 PM, DracoAdamantus said:

Metalminds are an example of static investiture. The attributes being stored within a metalmind doesn't actually affect the metal, it's just stored inside its structure. If this is true, then aluminum metalminds wouldn't break the other rules of aluminum-investiture interactions.

So here's the question, though: Metalminds function as batteries, storage of potential energy, essentially. A Chromium misting could drain a Ferruchemist's metalmind if they were actively tapping them, as that is kinetic investiture - the act of transforming that energy from potential into active use.

But the question is, does that mean that a metalmind being stored in - i.e., turning energy from active use into potential - is a form of kinetic investiture? 

I don't think Vin ever saw pulses from Sazed while he was storing in his metalminds, which she should have been able to do if so, but it's still transforming and moving energy around. If Aluminium specifically affects just kinetic investiture, then I think we need to know whether storing counts as kinetic or not. I can't find a reference to that on Arcanum yet, though.

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Xanpheon said:

So here's the question, though: Metalminds function as batteries, storage of potential energy, essentially. A Chromium misting could drain a Ferruchemist's metalmind if they were actively tapping them, as that is kinetic investiture - the act of transforming that energy from potential into active use.

But the question is, does that mean that a metalmind being stored in - i.e., turning energy from active use into potential - is a form of kinetic investiture? 

I don't think Vin ever saw pulses from Sazed while he was storing in his metalminds, which she should have been able to do if so, but it's still transforming and moving energy around. If Aluminium specifically affects just kinetic investiture, then I think we need to know whether storing counts as kinetic or not. I can't find a reference to that on Arcanum yet, though.

Hmmm...that's a very good question.

I believe that both storing and tapping metalminds are considered kinetic investiture, because of the fact that Ruin was able to alter memories stored in a coppermind. I can't find the exact information, but I remember hearing somewhere that the memories are safe in your own mind, and safe in the coppermind, but during the time of storing/tapping they are vulnerable to Ruin's alterations.

As for why it isn't sensed, I did find this on Arcanum:

Spoiler

drughat

Is the reason why Allomancy creates allomantic pulses visible to Seekers because it is an external magic drawing upon Preservation's power? In other words, is the reason why Feruchemy is much, much harder to detect by burning bronze because it is an internal magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 25, 2015)

It is implied that with training or savantism, Allomantic bronze can sense other sources of investiture. Allomancy is just very easy to sense because it's pulling in a decent amount of investiture directly from the spiritual realm. Feruchemy, on the other hand, is a comparatively small amount of investiture, and doesn't cross realms when it is being accessed. That plus sensing Allomancy is using Preservation's power to detect more of Preservation's power, it may be easier in that regard because it feels more familiar?

Regarding Vin not seeing pulses from Sazed, did she ever in the series specifically try to observe him storing, or did that just never come up? The same question goes for tapping metalminds, is there any direct reference to someone trying to sense it in the books?

I do have doubts on if storing would even have readable pulses, because it's technically energy becoming investiture within the metalmind, the investiture isn't actually doing work until it is tapped later. But at least when tapping, it does give off pulses, just once so weak most can't sense them.

[Trusk'our he/him]

32 minutes ago, DracoAdamantus said:

Hmmm...that's a very good question.

I believe that both storing and tapping metalminds are considered kinetic investiture, because of the fact that Ruin was able to alter memories stored in a coppermind. I can't find the exact information, but I remember hearing somewhere that the memories are safe in your own mind, and safe in the coppermind, but during the time of storing/tapping they are vulnerable to Ruin's alterations.

As for why it isn't sensed, I did find this on Arcanum:

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drughat

Is the reason why Allomancy creates allomantic pulses visible to Seekers because it is an external magic drawing upon Preservation's power? In other words, is the reason why Feruchemy is much, much harder to detect by burning bronze because it is an internal magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 25, 2015)

It is implied that with training or savantism, Allomantic bronze can sense other sources of investiture. Allomancy is just very easy to sense because it's pulling in a decent amount of investiture directly from the spiritual realm. Feruchemy, on the other hand, is a comparatively small amount of investiture, and doesn't cross realms when it is being accessed. That plus sensing Allomancy is using Preservation's power to detect more of Preservation's power, it may be easier in that regard because it feels more familiar?

Regarding Vin not seeing pulses from Sazed, did she ever in the series specifically try to observe him storing, or did that just never come up? The same question goes for tapping metalminds, is there any direct reference to someone trying to sense it in the books?

I do have doubts on if storing would even have readable pulses, because it's technically energy becoming investiture within the metalmind, the investiture isn't actually doing work until it is tapped later. But at least when tapping, it does give off pulses, just once so weak most can't sense them.

Dumad, the pseudo Mistborn Hemalurgist in TLM was fully capable of tracking Waxillium when he stored weight in his Ironmind. It's difficult to do, but not impossible- given Dumad's use, I think it just takes a master of Allomantic bronze, maybe using the right Intent.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6113

zas678

Can you detect Feruchemy with bronze Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually possible but it's very difficult. There's a tweak that you need to do to make it work and I haven't talked about that yet. They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it.

Though, Steel Inquisitors couldn't do it and they really wanted to, so maybe it requires some Realmatic knowledge or something else (note that this second WoB is like 4 years after the first and is paraphrased, and both are quite a bit before TLM. He might have changed his mind on how Seeking Feruchemy works).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246-alloy-of-law-17th-shard-qa/#e5495

Chaos (paraphrased)

We asked if it was possible to use bronze to Seek Feruchemy.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said it could be possible. If it were to happen, it was very hard, because the Inquisitors would desperately like to be able to find Feruchemists that way, and it was implied they had not discovered this power. So, it is a freaking hard technique to learn, if possible at all.

 

[Shadeshadow227]

On 3/28/2025 at 6:07 AM, alder24 said:

Aluminum is known to be different in Cosmere. It can't hold Breaths, it can't hold Stormlight, it can't hold any other investiture. There is no reason for aluminum to work differently in Metallic Arts. There is no confirmation that Aluminummind holds investiture when used instead of just blanking your identity with no way to tap it back. An aluminum spike can work in the same way - it removes all powers from your spirit web, without being invested itself. It doesn't even make sense for an aluminum spike to have a need to be charged before it's used to remove powers - what charge would it even need when all it does is the same thing as any other spike that's used on all donors. Aluminum is different and we have to take this into consideration. The more I think about aluminum, the more I realize that aluminum holding a charge in Metallic Arts would be inconsistent with how aluminum works in Cosmere. Why would you expect aluminum to be investable by Feruchemy or Hemalurgy, but not by Breaths and Stormlight? We will probably see how an Aluminummind works in Era 3, from that we can extrapolate it to Hemalurgy.

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Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Aluminum blocks/resists Investiture acting upon it, is how I've reconciled this, tbh.

Awakening and Surgebinding, for example, do things to whatever they act on. Awakening makes objects move, Surgebinding does all manner of things, can't do those things to Aluminum, and that extends to other effects that would act upon or through it.

None of the Metallic Arts actually use Investiture to do things to Aluminum as a material, including Allomancy.

Aluminum is a catalyst for a reaction that pulls Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, like the other metals, it's expended as part of that reaction but the reaction doesn't use Investiture to affect the metal itself, the Investiture is just filtered by the metal into a specific effect.

Similarly, Feruchemy doesn't alter an aluminummind. Investiture is just attached to the molecular structure of the material when storing, encoding for the attribute of Identity, and then taken back, converted into more Identity in the process. Nothing says you can't just stick Investiture to Aluminum, it's just that whatever effect you want to alter the Aluminum with won't work, including conducting effects through it.

Considering this, I think you would need to Invest an aluminum spike and apply it to a bindpoints for it to have a hemalurgic effect. What you Invest it with probably doesn't matter, as much as the fact that it's Invested at all, so it can interact with the spiritweb, whereupon it does what Aluminum always does: block things acting upon it. And because it's now hooked to your spiritweb, it's now part of you, so it blocks your own powers from altering your spiritweb.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 10/30/2025 at 12:58 AM, Shadeshadow227 said:

Aluminum is a catalyst for a reaction that pulls Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, like the other metals, it's expended as part of that reaction but the reaction doesn't use Investiture to affect the metal itself, the Investiture is just filtered by the metal into a specific effect.

Doesn't it though? In allomancy, the aluminum disappears from inside you, and in feruchemy and hemalurgy it would (theoretically, assuming it actually does work this way) put investiture into the metal. How is that not affecting the metal itself?

[Shadeshadow227]

3 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Doesn't it though? In allomancy, the aluminum disappears from inside you, and in feruchemy and hemalurgy it would (theoretically, assuming it actually does work this way) put investiture into the metal. How is that not affecting the metal itself?

The reaction that actually expends the metal in Allomancy doesn't really seem to require Investiture to initiate or sustain, considering that the materials being used for that reaction aren't Invested, and the flow of Investiture isn't self-sustaining like with Elantrians or Awakening.

It requires a Connection to Preservation, which is because of the chunk of Investiture all Scadrians have, but Allomancy uses non-Invested material to pull Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, and then uses that for a specific effect, but the metal itself isn't altered by the Investiture. It is destroyed, yeah, but as part of the reaction that enables Allomancy in the first place, not by the Investiture that reaction pulls in.

Metal is used to enhance that innate link to Preservation, and is consumed to sustain that Connection, the Connection then enables an Allomancer to siphon Investiture from Preservation for as long as the metal sustains it.

As far as Feruchemy and Hemalurgy go, Investing the material doesn't physically or chemically alter it, there's just Investiture stuck to it. It's like, if you dip an aluminum ingot in paint, it's not suddenly something other than aluminum, there's just paint on it. It might get stuck in the little bumps and imperfections in the material, but if you clean the paint off, that's still going to be the exact same ingot.

It's not an exact analogy, because Investiture attaches to the entire chemical structure, but still, it's not chemically-bonded to the material, iron is still iron, aluminum is still aluminum, there's just Investiture effectively glued to it.

Edited November 3, 2025 by Shadeshadow227
Clarification

[Nitpicking]

I'm pretty sure Investiture affects the metal itself when it makes the metal completely disappear from the Physical Realm. You know, by burning it?

[Shadeshadow227]

On 11/3/2025 at 8:28 PM, Nitpicking said:

I'm pretty sure Investiture affects the metal itself when it makes the metal completely disappear from the Physical Realm. You know, by burning it?

Allomancy doesn't utilize Investiture to initiate the reaction. The metals aren't Invested, and an Allomancer doesn't exactly have a reserve of Investiture they pull from in order to start burning metals, they just do it somehow.

An Allomancer begins burning their metals, then power is siphoned from Preservation in order to enable the effects of that metal, and that link only lasts as long as the metal does.

Investiture can't be doing that, because then an Allomancer would need a source of Investiture to burn metals, but an Allomancer only becomes Invested after beginning to burn their metals.

It isn't like being Radiant, where the Radiant's connection Invests them a bit and enables them to draw in Stormlight, Allomancers are just regular people who somehow use materials without Investiture to Connect to Preservation, whereupon they get and use Preservation's Investiture.

Edited November 5, 2025 by Shadeshadow227
Clarification