Unite them, feels like a let down

[neshua_kadal he/him]

I was re-listening the books after I finished WaT, coz why not, and I feel the whole epicness that maybe only I imagined behind the "Unite Them!", but I think it is definitely implied, specially in Oathbringer when Dalinar keeps hearing it after uniting the realms, seems like such a let down considering his actions divided people towards the end of WaT. One could argue that the other shards may be united now against Retri-vangian, but it still feels like something much more epic could have been done with Dalinar. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if he wasn't dead, but storms, it feels like he grew so much but couldn't unite the shards in a more obvious way. Which imo was what the whole "Unite Them" command was all about. I still like where the story is going, specially Kal's growth, and Shallan still gaslighting herself into believing she isn't a ghostblood (sorry!) and Rlain maybe becoming something even more than just a radiant if his relation with BAM turns into something more. Also I still think Kelsier won't just be a villain, it is quite clear now imo that the Rosharan chapter took more liberties than Kel would have allowed if he were in direct control. 

[Asininity]

Yea, I think you are right. The conclusion is only satisfying if we accept it at face value. It's what the author tells us rather than what the story shows us.

Giving Roshar to Odium (T picking Honor was a gamble) it essentially enslaved it's people under Retribution and now they will be forced into larger, far more devastating war between Shards - one that involves all of them instead of three. It's hard to see how this improves Roshar's situation in any meaningful way. 

While one could argue that Dalinar's betrayal of Honor did unite Shards against common enemy, the bigger issue remains: every Shard is inherently flawed. They are all "problem Shards" not just Odium. Forcing them into conflict might give them temporary focus but it's pretty much guaranteed to escalate into chaos and destruction of unprecedented scale. 

Ultimately, the only permanent solution seems to lie in either splintering every Shard completely or reforging Adonalsium whole. Maybe this is why Hoid is so happy with Dalinar decision? Regardless, it does feel like very utilitarian and un-Dalinar-like

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

8 hours ago, Asininity said:

Giving Roshar to Odium (T picking Honor was a gamble) it essentially enslaved it's people under Retribution and now they will be forced into larger, far more devastating war between Shards - one that involves all of them instead of three. It's hard to see how this improves Roshar's situation in any meaningful way. 

It's not a great situation but the alternatives are way worse. If Dalinar does not pick the path he chooses either the Shardic conflict destroys a planet that has been simmering in a pressure cooker for 7 millennia or the war keeps ongoing for another 1000 years. If you believe that as long as there's life there's hope, living on a world oppressed but with a non-zero chance at peace between the inhabitants is better than forever war or total annihilation.

That being said, Unite Them is sort of a letdown but that's hardly Dalinar's fault. Nobody giving that directive is being in any way clear with their instructions or even their identity. 

[neshua_kadal he/him]

Yeah not dalinar's fault really, considering the choices he was given, the contest of champions was done very well in my opinion. Maybe we'll see someone else doing the uniting in the future, inspired by Oathbringer (Dalinar's book).

[VirtuousTraveller]

15 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

One could argue that the other shards may be united now against Retri-vangian, but it still feels like something much more epic could have been done with Dalinar.

I felt the same way, and only realized that this was likely what “unite them” was referring to after I’d finished the book and reflected on this.

All of Dalinar’s ending felt like a pulled punch for me, because instead of dying for real, we see that “another has claimed him,” (at least the Dalinar we know), and Retribution poofs the Blackthorn into existence using ::handwave:: magic.  So there was no “He lives” or “he dies” ending - it’s left open so no clear decisions had to be made regarding the ending of this character.

That said, uniting the shards against Retribution was a great twist I didn’t see coming.  The scene when they all suddenly turn their gaze upon him is one of the best scenes in the book, in my opinion.  I don’t even mind this as the answer to “unite what?” It was a satisfying “different answer” to all the theory crafting about reforming Honor, or reforging Adonalsium.

[Raven Wilder]

I took the "another has claimed him" thing as simply Dalinar going into the afterlife, same as anyone else who dies, with the "another" being an indication that Dalinar's "God Beyond" faith was accurate.

[Asininity]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It's not a great situation but the alternatives are way worse. If Dalinar does not pick the path he chooses either the Shardic conflict destroys a planet that has been simmering in a pressure cooker for 7 millennia or the war keeps ongoing for another 1000 years. If you believe that as long as there's life there's hope, living on a world oppressed but with a non-zero chance at peace between the inhabitants is better than forever war or total annihilation.

That being said, Unite Them is sort of a letdown but that's hardly Dalinar's fault. Nobody giving that directive is being in any way clear with their instructions or even their identity. 

None of that is lost on me, but that only serves Cosmere. It feels like trading lives and agency of Roshar's people for some grand maybe plan. Odium can't escalate conflict beyond what it currently is, and Radiants can't destroy planet on their own. Free will matters. Anti-light will extinguish the conflict in time. What is so wrong with letting people choose their battles? This is my main complain, Id rather pick between Honor and Odium, than be forced to follow Retribution.

I also can't see Honor-side not winning this conflict with Dalinar as Shard, it would be far stretch with Blackthorn on his side.

[neshua_kadal he/him]

4 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I felt the same way, and only realized that this was likely what “unite them” was referring to after I’d finished the book and reflected on this.

All of Dalinar’s ending felt like a pulled punch for me, because instead of dying for real, we see that “another has claimed him,” (at least the Dalinar we know), and Retribution poofs the Blackthorn into existence using ::handwave:: magic.  So there was no “He lives” or “he dies” ending - it’s left open so no clear decisions had to be made regarding the ending of this character.

That said, uniting the shards against Retribution was a great twist I didn’t see coming.  The scene when they all suddenly turn their gaze upon him is one of the best scenes in the book, in my opinion.  I don’t even mind this as the answer to “unite what?” It was a satisfying “different answer” to all the theory crafting about reforming Honor, or reforging Adonalsium.

Yeah, that was the only thing that's stopping me from rioting lol, the way shards turned. I really wish I could hear what Autonomy thought at that instant. Regarding Blackthorn, I have to say if Dalinar lives on as a cognitive shadow of his past self, even if evil, I'll really hate the idea. Like what's the point of anyone dying or living or making choices if one can make an AI Robot and prop it up in place of the real thing. How would people know if it's the real Dalinar or not? I mean Kaladin also left behind a dead body, so that proof isn't enough. I also hope someone else claiming Dalinar's soul isn't him just passing on like "final deaths" in Cosmere, it shouldn't have been written so mysteriously if it is. A shard with all its capacity should be able to understand the difference between soul passing on to the beyond and someone else claiming it. 

[Nitpicking]

9 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

I took the "another has claimed him" thing as simply Dalinar going into the afterlife, same as anyone else who dies, with the "another" being an indication that Dalinar's "God Beyond" faith was accurate.

That was my first thought, but now it's my Crack Theory of the Day: Dalinar died desperately trying to preserve Roshar and the greater Cosmere. So Sazed-as-Preservation claims him. He's looking for a sword, and his futuresight tells him Wax will be retiring from that job soon. Wouldn't a Sliver of Honor be a useful sword for Saze? And wouldn't that be a fun surprise for Harmony to pull out of his back pocket when the Space War starts, that he stole Odium's idea and did it better? And wouldn't a Dalinar who is a Sliver of both Harmony and Honor be something to pit against Retribution (or whoever the real Big Bad is)?

[neshua_kadal he/him]

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

That was my first thought, but now it's my Crack Theory of the Day: Dalinar died desperately trying to preserve Roshar and the greater Cosmere. So Sazed-as-Preservation claims him. He's looking for a sword, and his futuresight tells him Wax will be retiring from that job soon. Wouldn't a Sliver of Honor be a useful sword for Saze? And wouldn't that be a fun surprise for Harmony to pull out of his back pocket when the Space War starts, that he stole Odium's idea and did it better? And wouldn't a Dalinar who is a Sliver of both Harmony and Honor be something to pit against Retribution (or whoever the real Big Bad is)?

I wish this is true lol. Though I think Brado will want a scadrian to be the sword, if it comes to that. We never know what might might happen to Saze in the future.

[Leuthie]

The coloring of Honor as the Almighty when he turns out to be a dork named Tanner who was in over his head trying to control a power that wanted him to keep all promises while trying to imprison another power that wants to kill everything and also spend time with his girlfriend is a huge thing to get over. It's okay. Many of us already know all of the Shards and Vessels are FOS.

UNITE THEM was a toddler Shard trying to tell Dalinar what it thought was a solution. It wasn't wrong, since if Dalinar had succeeded in uniting the nations of Roshar, Odium may not have been able to convince all of them to go to his side during the 10 days. 

[Treamayne]

On 1/6/2025 at 7:46 AM, Nitpicking said:

He's looking for a sword, and his futuresight tells him Wax will be retiring from that job soon.

Wax was the sword Harmony was looking for - that epigraph is years before Wax returns to the Basin (shown in the Epilogue when Wit applies to become the Ladrian Carriage Driver, right after "the previous one drove off a cliff" - which puts that scene right after Edwarn's "death" and before Wax receives the news and returns to Elendel). WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony’s vision of future possibilities comes to an abrupt halt tomorrow night, with only blackness after that. It’s a race against time, and Wax must choose whether to set aside his rocky relationship with God and once again become the Sword that Harmony has groomed him to be. If no one steps forward to be the hero Scadrial needs, the planet and its millions of people will come to a sudden and calamitous ruin.

Interesting theory though. 

Hope that helps

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Wax was the sword Harmony was looking for - that epigraph is years before Wax returns to the Basin (shown in the Epilogue when Wit applies to become the Ladrian Carriage Driver, right after "the previous one drove off a cliff" - which puts that scene right after Edwarn's "death" and before Wax receives the news and returns to Elendel).

That's why I posited futuresight. I did forget that Autonomy was blocking Harmony's futuresight, though.

[feruchemicalrockband]

I don't think the "Unite them!" plot line is over, or was ever necessarily part of Honor's intent. Dalinar started hearing them when he began to touch the spiritual realm through the visions, but it appears he may not be the only character to experience this. In the vision where Melishi binds Mishram, he's able to connect with her and capture her only because they both wanted to "unite them". This is stressed multiple times in the passage. Melishi was a Bondsmith, so this makes sense, but what about Mishram? We know that in order to connect to and empower the Singers, Mishram used Odium's perpendicularity, becoming closer to the spiritual realm. "Unite them" may be part of connecting to the Spiritual Realm, and not from Honor, as Honor was still Tanavast at this point.

The Spiritual Realm still has many mysteries associated with it, namely Nohadon somehow being alive in it. The Unity stuff is probably going to be explored alongside that. However, seeing as Navani probably won't be active in the back half until someone manages to protect her and the Sibling from Retribution without needing her to go into a coma, I'm not sure who will be getting the "Unite them!" messages. I guess probably Kaladin as Syl is (maybe) the new Honor Godspren, and they notably picked up a copy of the Way of Kings earlier in WaT.

[Colossus]

I don't know if this is just oversimplifying things, but the command for Dalinar to "unite them" can only be achieved if:

 

1) Dalinar Unites them

2) "They" are United

 

This seems needlessly simple but follow me here. Dalinar is, barring whatever "he is spoken for" mean, dead. So if Dalinar is supposed to succeed that means by the end of WaT whatever was supposed to be united is now united. The kingdoms, however, are clearly divided. Some follow Retribution and some follow the Knights. The parshendi are equally divided between the Fused and the Listeners. It doesn't seem like anything is united by the end of WaT, except one thing: Retribution.

 

We have reason to believe that the commands to 'Unite them" aren't actually part of the visions and may not necessarily have been given by Honor. I think its possible some splinter of Adonalsium was telling Dalinar to unite Honor and Odium. 

[TheoreticalMagic]

Chiming in to say I DID really like the gravity of the moment Retribution feels all the other Shards turn their attention to him. There was a very eldritch/cosmic horror vibe to it.

Taravangian, chuckling nervously as he realizes wanting him destroyed is literally the first and only thing these entities have agreed on in ten thousand years: Oh no, I'm in danger.

Two seconds later, figuring that Reason and Valor are likely just as aware of him and intent on his destruction as the others, and realizing the fact that they're somehow still shielding themselves from his sight means as far as he knows, they could show up on his front door and he still might not be able to tell: Oh no, the danger is real.

(I personally don't ascribe to the theory that Valor is on Roshar, but I DO firmly believe that the newly minted god of Retribution is doing the divine equivalent of not sleeping well, knowing that of all the Shards, VALOR has somehow made themselves invisible to him and could be anywhere. He's like mmmm, don't love that. This is not ideal for me.) 

Edited January 11, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[neshua_kadal he/him]

5 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Chiming in to say I DID really like the gravity of the moment Retribution feels all the other Shards turn their attention to him. There was a very eldritch/cosmic horror vibe to it.

Taravangian, chuckling nervously as he realizes wanting him destroyed is literally the first and only thing these entities have agreed on in ten thousand years: Oh no, I'm in danger.

Two seconds later, figuring that Reason and Valor are likely just as aware of him and intent on his destruction as the others, and realizing the fact that they're somehow still shielding themselves from his sight means as far as he knows, they could show up on his front door and he still might not be able to tell: Oh no, the danger is real.

(I personally don't ascribe to the theory that Valor is on Roshar, but I DO firmly believe that the newly minted god of Retribution is doing the divine equivalent of not sleeping well, knowing that of all the Shards, VALOR has somehow made themselves invisible to him and could be anywhere. He's like mmmm, don't love that. This is not ideal for me.) 

Yeah I do hope Valor is worth the hype that has been created just by a few lines. Like a Taln equivalent of shards or something.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Granted..theres always the backup Dalinar cognitive shadow, who can just as easily go on the same journey down the line  

But yeah..it's possible this was Nohadons influence not just Honor, but yeah I mean as much as I loved W&T, and the endless sanderlanche, some aspects felt a bit rushed to get to the end and breezed past some pretty major moments. Maybe once I listen to the graphic audio and get the full experience I'll think differently. But yeah, Dalinars arc is kind of a bummer and anticlimactic if that's just it, even if he gets kind of a survivor/Kelsier impact on scadrial since a religion was forming around him, and once Hoid spreads the word of what he did. 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Chapter 77, Dalinar thinks the command "unite them" wasn't from the Stormfather or Honer but a God that once existed and might yet, if not in a form people recognised.

Feels like this Uniting business is yet to be concluded..

[ChazBolt]

Idk. He United Honor and Odium. Too major foes are now held together. I think Unite Them has been satisfied. 

I also agree with the decision. It's the only answer that doesn't stick you with more forced war on rRoshar, and doesn't give Odium time to prepare to fight every other Shard. That fight is inevitable, better he be rushed into it and it just go ahead and happen.

With forcing the inevitable conflict, Dalinor also gets to sink a poison pill into Honor, pushing it in the direction to learn the lesson that Honor isn't Oaths it's about truly doing the best you can and keeping to the spirit of the promise, kinda like what Adolin learns. 

That and Karbaranth will be Retribution and Tanavast's (both parts need a weak spot, seperately) undoing. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 1/5/2025 at 10:21 PM, Raven Wilder said:

I took the "another has claimed him" thing as simply Dalinar going into the afterlife, same as anyone else who dies, with the "another" being an indication that Dalinar's "God Beyond" faith was accurate.

That's what I thought at first, too, but we have seen that Shards can "intercept" souls on their way to the Beyond, while still in the Cognitive Realm, and do things like Return them like Endowment does, rehouse them liked Odium did with the Fused, put them into a regenerative cycle like Honor did with the Heralds, etc., etc.

Normally such a thing requires Intent from the person in question; in Warbreaker, we see that Endowment offers Stennimar the choice to Return as "Lightsong" while in the CR, and of course the Fused and Heralds willingly bound themselves to Odium and to Honor respectively.

But at the end of WaT, we see that Retribution "seized" Dalinar's soul as it lingered in the CR, and should have had the same ability to make him a Fused or an Unmade, "for Dalinar Kholin was an oathbreaker... His broken oaths put his soul in Taravangian's hands". Oaths he had sworn to both Odium in the contract for the Contest, and of course the Ideals he had sworn and forsworn as Bondsmith in bonding the Stormfather, now the Splinter of Honor.

In the Cosmere, oaths to and from Shards have power: it's the same underlying reason that Rayse had said he could not break his word, because it would weaken him in such a way as to get him killed by other Shards. It's not like Taravangian "wondered" if he could torture Dalinar for eternity, or make him into an Unmade or a Fused: he knew he could, or thought he knew.

Yet it was "the powers", the two Shards he bore that still echoed separately in him, that told him that Dalinar "was claimed by another" as his soul slipped away. It didn't just "go to the Beyond" in a natural flow; it was claimed.

To me, this speaks of another aspect of the powers of the Shards and how they interact with each other: there is a priority queue. Yes, both the Shards of Honor and Odium and thus Retribution have a clear claim on Dalinar's soul, but this was "trumped" by another, earlier, deeper claim from another Shard.

That speaks of his visit to Cultivation and the "pruning" he received, after giving his assent. Both are supposed to be permanent, changes made to his very soul, yet he has recovered his memories of Evi (his supposed "curse"), and the "boon" he originally asked for was "to be forgiven".

The Nightwatcher correctly objected, "Forgiveness is no boon." At which point Cultivation herself interceded, saying, "THIS BOON IS BEYOND YOU."

And after considering what Dalinar was asking for, the boon she offered to him -- consider the wording precisely! -- was:

Quote

 

I WILL NOT MAKE OF YOU THE MAN YOU CAN BECOME. I WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE APTITUDE, OR THE STRENGTH, NOR WILL I TAKE FROM YOU YOUR COMPULSIONS. BUT I WILL GIVE YOU... A PRUNING. A CAREFUL EXCISION TO LET YOU GROW. THE COST WILL BE HIGH. ... WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THAT IS PART OF THE COST.

IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS.

 

The memories of Evi that were taken and grew back eventually, were only PART of the cost, not the entire cost. While Cultivation claimed "a part of Dalinar", and in my view retained the claim as the rest of the cost.

[SirNoSell]

On 1/7/2025 at 3:53 PM, Leuthie said:

The coloring of Honor as the Almighty when he turns out to be a dork named Tanner who was in over his head trying to control a power that wanted him to keep all promises while trying to imprison another power that wants to kill everything and also spend time with his girlfriend is a huge thing to get over. It's okay. Many of us already know all of the Shards and Vessels are FOS

You didn't have to say it like that. Now I can't unsee it.

[drunkenbotanist]

On 2/5/2025 at 9:23 AM, robardin said:

That's what I thought at first, too, but we have seen that Shards can "intercept" souls on their way to the Beyond, while still in the Cognitive Realm, and do things like Return them like Endowment does, rehouse them liked Odium did with the Fused, put them into a regenerative cycle like Honor did with the Heralds, etc., etc.

Normally such a thing requires Intent from the person in question; in Warbreaker, we see that Endowment offers Stennimar the choice to Return as "Lightsong" while in the CR, and of course the Fused and Heralds willingly bound themselves to Odium and to Honor respectively.

But at the end of WaT, we see that Retribution "seized" Dalinar's soul as it lingered in the CR, and should have had the same ability to make him a Fused or an Unmade, "for Dalinar Kholin was an oathbreaker... His broken oaths put his soul in Taravangian's hands". Oaths he had sworn to both Odium in the contract for the Contest, and of course the Ideals he had sworn and forsworn as Bondsmith in bonding the Stormfather, now the Splinter of Honor.

In the Cosmere, oaths to and from Shards have power: it's the same underlying reason that Rayse had said he could not break his word, because it would weaken him in such a way as to get him killed by other Shards. It's not like Taravangian "wondered" if he could torture Dalinar for eternity, or make him into an Unmade or a Fused: he knew he could, or thought he knew.

Yet it was "the powers", the two Shards he bore that still echoed separately in him, that told him that Dalinar "was claimed by another" as his soul slipped away. It didn't just "go to the Beyond" in a natural flow; it was claimed.

To me, this speaks of another aspect of the powers of the Shards and how they interact with each other: there is a priority queue. Yes, both the Shards of Honor and Odium and thus Retribution have a clear claim on Dalinar's soul, but this was "trumped" by another, earlier, deeper claim from another Shard.

That speaks of his visit to Cultivation and the "pruning" he received, after giving his assent. Both are supposed to be permanent, changes made to his very soul, yet he has recovered his memories of Evi (his supposed "curse"), and the "boon" he originally asked for was "to be forgiven".

The Nightwatcher correctly objected, "Forgiveness is no boon." At which point Cultivation herself interceded, saying, "THIS BOON IS BEYOND YOU."

And after considering what Dalinar was asking for, the boon she offered to him -- consider the wording precisely! -- was:

The memories of Evi that were taken and grew back eventually, were only PART of the cost, not the entire cost. While Cultivation claimed "a part of Dalinar", and in my view retained the claim as the rest of the cost.

Omg Cultivation took a cutting and now we have The Blackthorn and Cultivation's Thorn as opposite spren copies of Dalinar

[+robardin he/him]

21 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Omg Cultivation took a cutting and now we have The Blackthorn and Cultivation's Thorn as opposite spren copies of Dalinar

So, ... the Whitethorn?

[coolsnow7]

On 1/5/2025 at 5:36 AM, neshua_kadal said:

Also I still think Kelsier won't just be a villain, it is quite clear now imo that the Rosharan chapter took more liberties than Kel would have allowed if he were in direct control. 

Brandon has made it very clear that Kelsier straddles the line between good and evil, and is willing to do things that would be considered straight up evil. And Hoid is terrified of Kelsier’s plans for reasons we know nothing about so far. Meanwhile we don’t even know what Iyatil and Mraize were after with Ba-Ado-Mishram (how would she help them coerce the Shards? Why would they want to coerce Harmony?) or why it’s in any way worse than what Kelsier is trying to do. So to sum up I disagree with this comment completely.

On 1/5/2025 at 9:00 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

“another has claimed him,”

I find this interpretation confusing. To me it is clearly saying that someone else’s claim overrides Retribution’s, thereby giving Dalinar the freedom to escape Retribution - not that they specifically kept him around. 

Look we saw Dalinar go into the Beyond. To start speculating now that actually it’s all a giant fake out and really he’s still alive is, in my opinion, entering Stormfaker conspiracy theory territory. And there’s nothing I have more disdain for than hanging on to the Stormfaker idea post-WaT release.