Unite them, feels like a let down

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I find this interpretation confusing. To me it is clearly saying that someone else’s claim overrides Retribution’s, thereby giving Dalinar the freedom to escape Retribution - not that they specifically kept him around. 

Look we saw Dalinar go into the Beyond. To start speculating now that actually it’s all a giant fake out and really he’s still alive is, in my opinion, entering Stormfaker conspiracy theory territory. And there’s nothing I have more disdain for than hanging on to the Stormfaker idea post-WaT release.

What is confusing about it? We've seen characters go to the Beyond and also not go to the Beyond after going to the CR "staging area" after physical death, especially in Mistborn: Secret History but also in other books.

We have seen all  these scenarios:

• People usually linger momentarily in the CR after physical death before naturally "fading away" to the Beyond
  • Skaa were in the CR only briefly
  • Koloss showed up as being human again, including the obligator that tells Kelsier about the spikes
• A highly Invested person (e.g., a Mistborn) lingers longer (as Preservation's Ghost explains it), and thus, like Kelsier, had the time time to try to run from being pulled Beyond (he wasn't the first one to run!)
  • ...But without Shardic intervention (Preservation sealing him in the Well of Ascension), he would have been pulled to the Beyond eventually ("So you are a runner... this accomplishes nothing")
• A person whose physical body was restored and given the chance to return to life by a Shard, could CHOOSE to do so.
  • Elend and Vin were given this choice by Harmony, and declined
  • Waxillium was given this choice, and accepted
  • All "Returned" from Nalthis are like this, but with memory lost
    • Lightsong remembered dying and then hearing "a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity. To Return.")
• A person who has held the power of a Shard (a Splinter or Vessel) "could not be taken without consent" and could remain as a Cognitive Shadow.
  • Unless they were "completely destroyed", e.g., Rayse's Vessel being consumed by Nightblood
    • Most likely, whatever Rayse had done to kill Vessels and splinter their Shards earlier too.
  • Rashek declined this option disdainfully and without comment
  • Vin declined this as well ("No, Vin. You held the power. You don't have to go." -- "I know. ... Ah, Kelsier. You have a lot to learn about love, don't you?")
  • Ati had the time to inquire after/about "Vax", then sighed and went Beyond after Kelsier slugged him
  • We don't have any POVs or scenes showing Leras in his time in the CR, but it seems that...
  • Kelsier alone(?) has embraced this option and has stuck around ever since.
    • Note that he considered it being "taken" Beyond and not "going" Beyond, as others have put it.

Which of these categories fits Dalinar? None of them!

After all, what "claims" these souls to go Beyond? Nothing. They just go there on their own. Without some kind of consent to put oneself under Shardic power (including having once wielded the power of a Shard themselves), it cannot be prevented.

(...Well, usually. I mean, what the heck is going on with the shades on Threnody? There's always another secret, eh?)

The fate of Dalinar's soul, by all rights that Retribution knew about (with Shardic knowledge), should have been in Taravangian's control, because making an oath to a Shard qualifies as having given consent (Intent) to "put himself under Shardic power" once it was broken.

...but, despite that, Dalinar's soul was CLAIMED "by another".

By another WHAT? Another SHARD, obviously! One that had "prior claim" to it (Cultivation), and involved his giving consent at the time! ("IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU... SHOULD I FOREBEAR?" -- "Do it.")

Note that he's still physically dead. His corpse was definitely still just that at Urithiru at the end of WaT, he didn't spring up all healed up with his soul reattached, thanks Mom! And Cultivation has fled the Rosharan system.

Whatever "Whitethorn" Dalinar's fate is, it's not going to be a continuation of his former life the way Wax ended up. He's a... Spren of sorts.

Edited February 14, 2025 by robardin

[Treamayne]

Also, please note that SprenThorn is not a Cognitive Shadow - it's a being of investiture, shaped by the legends and Stories of the Blackthorn thought and told by the peoples of Roshar, then shown some memories by Dalinar about the consequences of the Rift (not given the memories, the way a Memory may be stored in Copper or Breath - but simply shown some memories about consequences and change) WaT Ch 99:

Spoiler

"See," Dalinar said. "Know."

The air warped again and they were - for a second - truly one. The Blackthorn's eyes came alight with understanding as he saw the future - saw himself breaking, saw Gavilar die. Dalinar poured into this effigy every pain, every once of understanding, and the truth of who he had become.

So, it's like a highlights reel, but without context. Without the Journey. SprenThorn is, at best, a Splinter molded by Rosharan perception of the Blackthorn and having seen, then rejected, Dalinar's journey. It is not Dalinar's soul or spiritweb, not a Cognitive Shadow in any sense we currentlly know and understand. SprenThorn is a pale shadow of a reflection that Retribution hopes to turn into a tool and weapon.

Edited February 14, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG