is retribution stronger than harmony?

[Blue-phoenix186]

I feel like retribution would be stronger. bc honor and odium don’t clash as much as ruin and preservation clash they are complete opposites. for example preservation can’t destroy anything but both honor and odium can if they want honor had no problem destroying the planet to kill odium. Also, I feel like the vessel of retribution would have a lot more easier time with control over their shard then Harmony

[Qianweilian He/him]

Yes and no. Harmony's intent allows him to sit back, wait, subtly influence, and maybe even act to maintain balance. Retribution's intent will most likely force him to act, even when he just wants to prepare.

[Cheapshot]

Retribution will be more reckless with its intent which will keep a huge target on his back by all shards including harmony. 
Also remember odium shard has already shattered other shards and is a known threat.

harmony is seen as a threat but paralyzed by the shards conflicting intents so might not be the focus of other shards. 

[therunner he/him]

Yes.

Harmony cannot act, so much so that Avatar formed on its planet and it was powerless to do anything direct about it.

Retribution has at least semi-aligned intents, or at least not ones that are opposite, and so can actually act.

Once Harmony turns into Discord, that will change.

Edited December 21, 2024 by therunner

[alder24]

On 12/20/2024 at 10:21 AM, Blue-phoenix186 said:

I feel like retribution would be stronger. bc honor and odium don’t clash as much as ruin and preservation clash they are complete opposites. for example preservation can’t destroy anything but both honor and odium can if they want honor had no problem destroying the planet to kill odium. Also, I feel like the vessel of retribution would have a lot more easier time with control over their shard then Harmony

In terms of raw power, they are equal. In terms of experience, they are more or less equal (both recently Ascended), with a slight advantage given to Taravangian who can access the pool of knowledge Rayse had, which includes lessons like "Splintering Shards 101." In terms of actions, Retribution has an advantage. His Shards are not in conflict between themselves yet (but there is some slight opposition from Honor that he felt) and he's really fresh to the whole Vessel thing, so he's very unaffected by Shardic Intent right now. This might change, but I highly doubt he would become like Sazed. Sazed holds two Shards in total opposition to each other, constantly in conflict and because of that has a really hard time acting at all. This might change if Sazed turns into Discord, but right now Retribution has the upper hand. 

However, Taravangian might not know how limited Sazed is in reality, which might be an advantage Sazed currently has - for a short while. He will learn it soon. 

Spoiler

ParadoxSpren

If someone did, like what Dalinar did at the end of [Oathbringer], go on Sel, and they Ascended to take up the Dor, would they be stronger or weaker than Sazed?

Brandon Sanderson

If someone were able to take up the entire Dor, would they be stronger or weaker than Sazed? I would say equivalent.

ParadoxSpren

Aren't they all Shattered? Aren't they all Splintered, both of them?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about it is, taking up the power-- taking up the power would-- So, I'll leave it at this. I would say equivalent. Everything still considered.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

[Immortal Platypus]

On 12/20/2024 at 2:21 AM, Blue-phoenix186 said:

I feel like retribution would be stronger. bc honor and odium don’t clash as much as ruin and preservation clash they are complete opposites. for example preservation can’t destroy anything but both honor and odium can if they want honor had no problem destroying the planet to kill odium. Also, I feel like the vessel of retribution would have a lot more easier time with control over their shard then Harmony

Power could go to either one of them. We know that Preservation is weaker than other Shards because of the power that Leras Invested in making humans. However, Honor also has several chunks of power floating around, whether it be the spren, the Oathpact, etc. Action definitely favors Retribution over Harmony, but that could change with Discord. In addition, with Honor being semi-intelligent, this could change, possibly even giving the advantage to Discord. Experience I would call equal. Sazed's been ascended for a longer time, but his Shards don't have as useful of memories. 

[MagicMaggot]

Let's say someone like Autonomy saw no problem in directly challenging Sazed, but I would be very, very surprised, if she would be quite as brazen when facing Retribution. Or Odium, for that matter. Not because they have a larger energy storage, but because they are more likely to do damage. "Raw power" doesn't mean all that much, if it is like Leras' power to sit around and slowly die, while not changing anything, ever. The Preservation example shows that it isn't even necessarily about having conflicting powers, he just held a power whose intent was unsuited to conflict - while in theory having the capacity to match Ati, as Vin proved. 

I do actually think Retribution will in some ways be more limited than Odium was. We haven't seen much from it, yet, but one of the few things we did see it do was to limit itself to better conform to the spirit of a technically voided border agreement. But Retribution is certainly still an intent that lends itself to direct conflict, and that's what other shards should be more nervous about.  

[Alexander Atoz]

Everyone talks about how having two shards limits the vessel, but Adonalsium had all sixteen and wasn't very limited (I presume). You could say that was due to him being the original, but I think it as or more likely that different shards do combine with each other, and that Retribution will be no more or less limited than Odium or Honor. He will be limited in a different way.

Harmony has the problem of two shards that are almost opposite, which is why he has such trouble. He'd probably be better off if he could absorb a third shard, ideally one that's equally compatible with both Preservation and Ruin. (I suspect that Odium is largely compatible with Ruin, and Honor with Preservation. No idea what would happen if all four combined. (Although Odium will remain a poisoned pill unless it can be somehow combined with Mercy/Kindness. Unfortunately, Odium destroyed that one. I wonder if there's a way to fix broken shards.))

[NeverTrustAesSedai He/Him]

12 hours ago, Alexander Atoz said:

Everyone talks about how having two shards limits the vessel, but Adonalsium had all sixteen and wasn't very limited (I presume). You could say that was due to him being the original, but I think it as or more likely that different shards do combine with each other, and that Retribution will be no more or less limited than Odium or Honor. He will be limited in a different way.

Harmony has the problem of two shards that are almost opposite, which is why he has such trouble. He'd probably be better off if he could absorb a third shard, ideally one that's equally compatible with both Preservation and Ruin. (I suspect that Odium is largely compatible with Ruin, and Honor with Preservation. No idea what would happen if all four combined. (Although Odium will remain a poisoned pill unless it can be somehow combined with Mercy/Kindness. Unfortunately, Odium destroyed that one. I wonder if there's a way to fix broken shards.))

There is. The Shard of Honor eventually recoalesced into a usable form after being Splintered.

In a direct conflict between the two Shards, Retribution would certainly overpower Harmony. However, in some kind of proxy war, it would be fairly easy to force Retribution's hand by placing him in a situation in which the Shard demands that the Vessel act.

(On an unrelated note, does anyone play the board game Root? It's just that Retribution's nature reminds me of a mechanic from that game.)

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, NeverTrustAesSedai said:

There is. The Shard of Honor eventually recoalesced into a usable form after being Splintered.

I don't think Honor was ever actually Splintered, just thought to be until WaT. I don't have the book on me, but doesn't Hoid say something along those lines?

The power left Tanner, which got him killed by Rayse, but I don't think there was ever an actual description of the Shard being Splintered. 

[Nitpicking]

Adonalsium did not "have" sixteen Shards. It was a unified whole, which neither Harmony nor Retribution currently is. When properly guided by other of the principles behind the Shards, Preservation + Ruin = Creation. Note that of all the Shards, only Ruin and Preservation created a planet or biosphere from scratch, and they could only do it by working together.

[Xanpheon]

On 10/23/2025 at 10:42 AM, Alexander Atoz said:

Everyone talks about how having two shards limits the vessel, but Adonalsium had all sixteen and wasn't very limited (I presume). You could say that was due to him being the original, but I think it as or more likely that different shards do combine with each other, and that Retribution will be no more or less limited than Odium or Honor. He will be limited in a different way.

Harmony has the problem of two shards that are almost opposite, which is why he has such trouble. He'd probably be better off if he could absorb a third shard, ideally one that's equally compatible with both Preservation and Ruin. (I suspect that Odium is largely compatible with Ruin, and Honor with Preservation. No idea what would happen if all four combined. (Although Odium will remain a poisoned pill unless it can be somehow combined with Mercy/Kindness. Unfortunately, Odium destroyed that one. I wonder if there's a way to fix broken shards.))

Just a small correction: Mercy was not splintered. Odium, thus far, has "destroyed" Dominion, Devotion, and Ambition. Dominion and Devotion form the Dor, and Ambition's splintering caused the Knell at Threnody (and likely also the Evil?). 

We have confirmation that Mercy is still alive (RoW Chapter 25 Epigraph):

Quote

"Whimsy was not terribly useful, and Mercy worries me. I do think that Valor is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation."

But the concern is why Mercy worries Harmony, as he states. While we know Mercy is alive, it's very likely that the "Wound" in the Spiritual realm caused by Ambition's death had some very nasty effect on them.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 11/6/2025 at 11:54 AM, Xanpheon said:

But the concern is why Mercy worries Harmony, as he states. While we know Mercy is alive, it's very likely that the "Wound" in the Spiritual realm caused by Ambition's death had some very nasty effect on them.

I'd say because in Mercy's view it may be better for the war to end quickly in cataclysm rather everybody suffer for millenia.