Is He Bound by the Contract?

[gas_and_lies]

With Dalinar having renounced all oaths, I thought the contract would have been voided as well, but it seems like Retribution is bound by it. What am I missing?

Edited December 13, 2024 by Chaos
Spoiler in topic title

[+robardin he/him]

I was wondering the same thing. If the contract for the Contest was torn up by Dalinar, doesn't that mean Retribution is completely free?

Not just to leave Roshar, but also to do things like directly smite people now. Which he did right quick to Hoid, who was specifically protected in that contract, so yeah it's done with.

In which case, one wonders why he left Azir and Narak (the Land of Listeners) alone. Even letting the sun shine down on Azir! Doesn't seem like he had to.

On the other hand, his contract with Fen and Thaylenah still stands, that was made directly with Odium. Plus whatever conditions may have been spelled out in terms of other lands that had surrendered voluntarily to Odium earlier.

[Nef]

Was it specifically said that Retribution can't leave? I think that he wanted to stay initially anyway and build up his strength first, and was really annoyed that now other shards have noticed him making it harder to bide his time.

[coolsnow7]

34 minutes ago, gas_and_lies said:

With Dalinar having renounced all oaths, I thought the contract would have been voided as well, but it seems like Retribution is bound by it. What am I missing?

I think Honor rebels against violating the contract.

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

Not just to leave Roshar, but also to do things like directly smite people now. Which he did right quick to Hoid, who was specifically protected in that contract, so yeah it's done with.

The contract was made between Odium and Dalinar. The original agreement binding Odium to Roshar was made between Odium and Honor.

Retribution can now “violate” his agreement with Honor because he now incorporates Honor. But Dalinar, representing humanity, still holds him accountable to the contract.

Unrelatedly I remember arguing with someone at length about why Odium could obviously destroy Kharbranth if he wanted to, and them simply refusing to understand. What a waste of time but at least Brandon proved me right as comprehensively as possible.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I think the contract is basically toast, but he has larger issues now. He can leave but would leave behind a lot of resources. With the Cosmere target on his back now I don't think he can afford to loose the investiture on the planet. I also don't think Honor or Odium would be very happy with him leaving to hide. Most of the countries are now on his side and Urithiru is in the bubble. Seems like the only thing that was really lost is that he is probably free to continue the war against Azir if he wanted. But Honor may not like that as I believe the peace was agreed to stand regardless of the outcome of his duel with Dalinar. I think you could argue that Dalinar's forfeit is just a loss and not a nullification, so the Honor part of Retribution will probably want to keep the peace deal.   

[Aon Tia she/her]

7 hours ago, gas_and_lies said:

With Dalinar having renounced all oaths, I thought the contract would have been voided as well, but it seems like Retribution is bound by it. What am I missing?

I think the intent of shard of Honor makes it difficult for him to go on a complete rampage. It would not like that. 

Quote

Listen to me, Honor. I did not break the contract. I kept my oaths. I have let myself be bound by them again and again. I understand you, and how you feel right now. I am worthy.”

T said to Honor shard before he took it. I think he needs to show tot he power that he cares about his contracts and oaths. Power that has resisted taking a vessel for a long time and then chose Dalinar who immediately renounced his oath. T needs to pretend to be better than Dalinar. 

Also unbeknownst to T, shard of Honor has sentience equivalent to a little boy (10 yrs old?), T is going to find it extra difficult to mold it to his desires. Now that other shards have taken notice of him, he can not afford to be rejected by Honor. 

 

[The Sovereign]

I think we can look to Sunlit Man for a suitable explanation;
 

Spoiler

Paraphrasing Aux: Just because you broke your oaths, doesn't mean that I did.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

Taravangian honors the contract even though Dalinar broke it to make the Power Honor happy. 

[Darvys]

I understand that Taravangian is inclined to honor his part to satisfy the shard, but didn't the contract stipulate that Odium would remain bound to the system regardless of the result of the contest ?

I doubt Honor would be content with T. cherry picking clauses he doesn't mind too much.

But then again the shard still seems pretty naive, needing reassurances that T. treated Gavinor "honorably" instead of making its own judgement, so maybe the vessel can just bs his way out of trouble.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Darvys

[alder24]

13 hours ago, gas_and_lies said:

With Dalinar having renounced all oaths, I thought the contract would have been voided as well, but it seems like Retribution is bound by it. What am I missing?

He's not bound by them, he chose to be because Honor desperately wants to honor their Oaths, even if they were broken. To keep Honor part of him under control and prevent him from abandoning him, Taravangian chose to keep his side of the deal, allowing Azir and the Shattered Plains to remain independent. WaT ch 145:

Quote

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn’t he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor … Honor wanted desperately to follow it—and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. As he determined to do so, Honor swelled inside him, and more fully bonded into Retribution.
Good. Likewise, he would allow the Shattered Plains to have a kind of autonomy themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

I understand that Taravangian is inclined to honor his part to satisfy the shard, but didn't the contract stipulate that Odium would remain bound to the system regardless of the result of the contest ?

Yes, unless Dalinar breaks the terms, which would release Odium from Roshar. Dalinar didn't just break the Oath regarding the contest, he break all Oaths Honor/Tanavast ever made with Odium, including the one which bind him in the first place. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void."

WaT ch 143:

Quote

“I renounce my oaths,” Dalinar said. “I break our contract. I break the oaths and contracts that Honor has made with Odium—all of them. I will not make any of the choices presented to me. I release you. I break my oaths.”
[...]
Taravangian roared in defiance, then … then in glory as he realized this would mean his freedom. The contract, including Honor’s binding of Odium to this world, was finished.

I suspect Honor doesn't mind Retribution leaving the system because that was the deal between Honor and Odium, which now are one, while he does mind keeping their word to Azir and Shattered Plains because despite being released from that deal, Honor wasn't a part of it, humans were and they "mostly" kept their side of the promise. 

[Slayd_07]

14 hours ago, robardin said:

Not just to leave Roshar, but also to do things like directly smite people now. Which he did right quick to Hoid, who was specifically protected in that contract, so yeah it's done with.

 

Hoid opened himself up to this kind of direct attack when he intervened in Kaladin's vision in RoW. Other than that, Retribution still follows the normal rule of Shards where he can't be too direct in his attacks on anyone who doesn't fully "belong" to him. 

[+robardin he/him]

34 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

Hoid opened himself up to this kind of direct attack when he intervened in Kaladin's vision in RoW. Other than that, Retribution still follows the normal rule of Shards where he can't be too direct in his attacks on anyone who doesn't fully "belong" to him. 

Hoid was afraid of Odium's smiting fist already before RoW, as he told Dalinar in WoR that if "the father of hatred" found him, he'd be soul-shredded (which somehow is not what Retribution did to him, which was just a physical vaporization that he found a workaround for).

When Cultivation told him about only being able to touch those who "belonged" to him, because of "the pact my predecessor made", I had assumed to be part of the Oathpact:

Quote

"This is a curse," he said, holding the dying child close. "I should be able to help them. Save them!"

"You are forbidden," Cultivation said, "from taking direct action against any who are not fully given to you."

"Because of the pact my predecessor made," he spat. "I can break it."

"In so doing, you would be vulnerable to outside attack," she said. "The powers bind us to our promises, particularly those made and sealed with a formal oath."

But you're saying the "pact" being referenced was instead something all sixteen Shards agreed upon, at the Shattering?

If that's the case, then it only restricts a Shard from literally smiting someone one-on-one directly. We saw T'Odium destroying Kharbranth with a tsunami, and similarly Ruin causing devastation in Mistborn: Secret History with natural disasters that Vin-Preservation was unable to fully prevent.

And as for the healing, if the pact was to forbid taking direct action "against" someone not fully given to them, what about healing as an action "for" someone? As he later freeze-frames Gavinor in the Contest duel while commenting on how there was a loophole in that the contract prevented him from fixing the fight in any way against Honor's champion, but not from fixing the fight FOR Honor's champion.

[Chaos he/him]

No spoilers in topic titles, guys.

[Slayd_07]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

If that's the case, then it only restricts a Shard from literally smiting someone one-on-one directly. We saw T'Odium destroying Kharbranth with a tsunami, and similarly Ruin causing devastation in Mistborn: Secret History with natural disasters that Vin-Preservation was unable to fully prevent.

 

It was explicitly stated that T'Odium could destroy Kharbranth because it had been given to him in the contract Taravangian formed with Rayse. That ownership was maintained by the power, even after the Vessel transfer. And Scadrial did belong, at least partially, to Ruin - there were even lines, I believe, from Ruin about how since he helped create Scadrial, he was within his rights to destroy it. 

Gavinor absolutely counts as being "fully given" to him. If being his champion doesn't fufill that, I don't know what does. 

I'm confident that this "only affect those who are fully given to you" pact was something that happened at the Shattering. It's the only reasonable explanation, since we've seen basically every Shard follow these rules across the breadth of the Cosmere. 

[+robardin he/him]

11 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

It was explicitly stated that T'Odium could destroy Kharbranth because it had been given to him in the contract Taravangian formed with Rayse. That ownership was maintained by the power, even after the Vessel transfer. And Scadrial did belong, at least partially, to Ruin - there were even lines, I believe, from Ruin about how since he helped create Scadrial, he was within his rights to destroy it. 

Gavinor absolutely counts as being "fully given" to him. If being his champion doesn't fufill that, I don't know what does. 

I'm confident that this "only affect those who are fully given to you" pact was something that happened at the Shattering. It's the only reasonable explanation, since we've seen basically every Shard follow these rules across the breadth of the Cosmere. 

Only directly affect, I could believe. But that wasn't really my point -- not whether he could personally and directly destroy specific people, but move against nations and cities.

That point being, as of the end of WaT, there's nothing "pactful" keeping Retribution from destroying Azir the way he had Kharbranth, or at the very least invading it with Fused and singers and all the other allied forces he could bring to bear from all the other Rosharan nations sworn to him, because the contract that bound him to leave Azir alone if he didn't conquer it by the Contest of Champions (even with the loophole of "who sits in the literal seat of power, the throne of Azimir") was dissolved when Dalinar took the mantle of Champion of Honor, and then instead of fighting Gavinor to the death, renounced all oaths and contracts.

It seems the aspect of Honor within him wants to keep to those terms, regardless:

Quote

He would have to let Azir keep its land, as they had won, wouldn't he? Dalinar had broken the contract, but Honor... Honor wanted desperately to follow it -- and Taravangian had to be careful lest the power rebel against him. ... Likewise, he would allow the Shattered Plains to have a kind of autonomy themselves. 

Which I found interesting. After which decision he feels the power of Honor "bonding more fully" into Retribution.

So he directly controls 90% of Roshar, and can still put at least economic pressure on the remaining 10%.

And (which I noticed on a re-read of that part), Retribution is planning on leaving Roshar (now that he can) and leaving a regent to rule in his place (presumably El).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 minutes ago, robardin said:

It seems the aspect of Honor within him wants to keep to those terms, regardless:

Which I found interesting. After which decision he feels the power of Honor "bonding more fully" into Retribution.

So he directly controls 90% of Roshar, and can still put at least economic pressure on the remaining 10%.

And (which I noticed on a re-read of that part), Retribution is planning on leaving Roshar (now that he can) and leaving a regent to rule in his place (presumably El).

That in turn has consequences for the trapped residents of Urithiru once they break the shell. If they aid rebels or forment an uprising in the territories Retribution is holding by the contract, Retribution is free to act against them.

[teknopathetic he/him]

7 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Taravangian honors the contract even though Dalinar broke it to make the Power Honor happy. 

Which is stupid and makes little sense in my opinion. 

[Forged Herald]

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Which is stupid and makes little sense in my opinion. 

Honor wants to respect it. It doesn't know why but Taravangian doesn't want to antagonize Honor

[+robardin he/him]

30 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

Honor wants to respect it. It doesn't know why but Taravangian doesn't want to antagonize Honor

I think it's because Honor was the Dalinar side of the equation, and the fact that Honor's Champion abjured all his oaths and abrogated the contract makes the "kind of like a pre-teen human's level of self-awareness after so long without a Vessel, which is more than other Shards have btw when first un-Vesseled" element of "Honor" feel like it owes the contract itself something.

DALINAR was an oathbreaker, but WE'RE not oathbreakers... The fact that Odium and Honor are now merged, means even MORE so that the contract between Odium and Honor should be, well, honored by Odium+Honor = Retribution!

Does that make sense?

It also is kind of a narrative requirement, otherwise Retribution could just destroy or dominate the pockets our surviving SA1-5 heroes find themselves in and that would be a terrible story.

Edited December 13, 2024 by robardin

[Slayd_07]

Yeah, if Taravangian doesn't act carefully to ensure Honor is happy, he could easily end up in a situation like Tanavast did towards the end, where the power was rebelling against him. And if that happens he just kind of looses. The only way he even has a chance in this cosmere-wide war is by holding a dual Shard. 

[Returned he/him]

From what we've seen, Honor doesn't bind by contract, it binds by oath. Odium promised to do certain things, and someone else violating their own, different promises shouldn't release Odium from the promises he/it already made, even as a component of Retribution.

He was never "bound" by the contract in any meaningful sense, just incentivized to adhere to it. The binding isn't some absolute. Even Tanavast could violate promises he'd made while holding Honor, and there were consequences for doing that. For Taravangian those consequences no longer include a direct, immediate strike from another Shard, since Cultivation has left.

So now the relevant consequences for Tanavast and, presumably, Taravangian are increasing friction with the power of Honor's shard. That's bad for a host of reasons, and Taravangian had a front-row seat for just how bad it could become for him. So it's in Taravangian's best interest to keep the power mollified by adhering to the promises he/Odium made at least most of the time to avoid those consequences building up and repeating the same issues suffered by Tanavast and Rayse. At some point he could break the relevant promises, and option he always had, but Taravangian will almost certainly reserve such actions for especially important moments (if he does so at all).

Leaving a planet seems tightly related to the degree of Investiture a shard has made there, so leaving Roshar would also mean leaving behind the infrastructure Odium has built there and starting from scratch somewhere else. Simultaneously, the other shards are now frightened of Retribution and unlikely to just leave him alone to do that. Especially with the time dilation, Retribution's best bet is to stay on Roshar and not antagonize his only remaining advantage-- the power of two Shards wielded together. It seems to me that the best way to do that is to keep as many of his promises as he can, at least for now.

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Returned said:

From what we've seen, Honor doesn't bind by contract, it binds by oath. Odium promised to do certain things, and someone else violating their own, different promises shouldn't release Odium from the promises he/it already made, even as a component of Retribution.

He was never "bound" by the contract in any meaningful sense, just incentivized to adhere to it. The binding isn't some absolute. Even Tanavast could violate promises he'd made while holding Honor, and there were consequences for doing that. For Taravangian those consequences no longer include a direct, immediate strike from another Shard, since Cultivation has left.

So now the relevant consequences for Tanavast and, presumably, Taravangian are increasing friction with the power of Honor's shard. That's bad for a host of reasons, and Taravangian had a front-row seat for just how bad it could become for him. So it's in Taravangian's best interest to keep the power mollified by adhering to the promises he/Odium made at least most of the time to avoid those consequences building up and repeating the same issues suffered by Tanavast and Rayse. At some point he could break the relevant promises, and option he always had, but Taravangian will almost certainly reserve such actions for especially important moments (if he does so at all).

Leaving a planet seems tightly related to the degree of Investiture a shard has made there, so leaving Roshar would also mean leaving behind the infrastructure Odium has built there and starting from scratch somewhere else. Simultaneously, the other shards are now frightened of Retribution and unlikely to just leave him alone to do that. Especially with the time dilation, Retribution's best bet is to stay on Roshar and not antagonize his only remaining advantage-- the power of two Shards wielded together. It seems to me that the best way to do that is to keep as many of his promises as he can, at least for now.

Agree on the first boldfaced point, but on the second one... He's already left, hasn't he? Or rather, is already planning to do so at the end of WaT, because many or all of the other Shards were now going to band together against him that he was freed from Roshar:

Quote

I will need to move quickly, he thought, seeing possible futures. Escape Roshar, before the other Shards move against me. They are timid still, but will be galvanized by time.

His next actions would have to be decisive. He began thinking of ways to draw the attention of his enemies toward a conflict on Scadrial ... He would have to leave Roshar under a regent as he needed to plan how to evade this trap that Dalinar had created for him.

"The trap" being: hey, you all better do something about this Taravangian guy who's now Retribution while he's still new to the game!

 

[MagicMaggot]

What do we even mean by "leaving the system"?

I'm still trying to understand how that works, so tell me where I'm going wrong, but...

As I understand it, shards are mostly in the spiritual realm, which doesn't really do things like distance, since it's all about connection. The limitations of the shard are mostly in its enormous, but still limited, attention (and its intent), and if you start investing the cognitive or the physical realm, you're binding your attention to something that is actually localized. The more invested you are, the harder it is to get your godly mind off it, which limits how much you can spare for all the fun stuff that isn't where your invested powers are. Though I guess you can get around that a bit through avatars, or something, the Autonomy stuff is strange...

So, since we aren't talking about flying away as some godly space cloud, I guess we'd have to interpret the contract that bound them to Roshar as restricting where they are allowed to focus their godly attention, not where they are allowed to "go". Which means an unbound Retribution would now be free to try to put his power to use in other worlds. But wherever and whenever he actually does something, other shards could use that connection to "find" him... in the spiritual realm, I guess? And that would be easier, if they knew where he was acting in the physical or cognitive realm, which is why it is a good idea for Retribution to stop acting in Roshar, if he doesn't want to invite visitors in the spiritual realm. 

So leaving would be... withdrawing his attention from Roshar, and focussing it somewhere where the other shards aren't looking for the connection to him, if not going fully dark? Essentially ignoring all of his existing connections on Roshar? Yeah, if that is it that sounds pretty hard. And kind of open-ended. The idea is that with some time he can master his powers enough to actually attack from that stealth, or to become proficient enough to survive the attention of other shards, when he decides to act again?

This god-level stuff is a bit confusing. 

[Returned he/him]

48 minutes ago, robardin said:

He's already left, hasn't he? Or rather, is already planning to do so at the end of WaT, because many or all of the other Shards were now going to band together against him that he was freed from Roshar:

Good catch, I'd glossed over that line. Even so the mechanics of a Shard leaving a planet have been described in the past as difficult, but without specificity we probably can't draw very strong conclusions about any of it. Could he Invest an avatar, as Autonomy did, and leave some portion of his influence and access to Warlight on Roshar while he leaves? Or is he sending a portion of his attention abroad, also as Autonomy did? Either way, I have to think that leaving Roshar would draw more attention and response from the other Shards, not less, than just staying there. Unless he's going into hiding it's hard for me to think of a way he would be safer without any of his Rosharan resources to draw upon. And if Roshar is where his amassed power base is, wouldn't it be easier for other Shards to destroy without Retribution there to oppose them? If he does go into hiding, what does he gain unless he can safeguard his Rosharan interests from other Shards?

I'll suggest that "escape Roshar before the other Shards move against me" is not a very specific timeline, particularly with the time dilation in effect, and the other Shards we know about would suffer from the same difficulty (if any) in leaving their worlds. I imagine that Retribution's plan for dealing with other Shards is probably not fundamentally different from Odium's: attack first and win, which should be easier than ever with two Shards powering him. We still don't really know what an inter-Shardic fight really looks like though, so this view might be too simplistic.

The plans presented in the conclusion of WaT suggests that Retribution somehow instigated Autonomy's incursion onto Scadrial, but there isn't any indication to date that Retribution was actually there for those events. Maybe that's his offense for now, creating distractions that are more urgent than himself? The key information that might inform us about Retribution's plans is specifically not available to us, which is frustrating.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Returned said:

The plans presented in the conclusion of WaT suggests that Retribution somehow instigated Autonomy's incursion onto Scadrial, but there isn't any indication to date that Retribution was actually there for those events. Maybe that's his offense for now, creating distractions that are more urgent than himself? The key information that might inform us about Retribution's plans is specifically not available to us, which is frustrating.

Given that the newly disintegrated Hoid reincorporated on Scadrial soon after the faked "coach accident" with Wax's uncle Edwarn, the Set had already been machinating there.

I guess with the time dilation thing, and if Hoid's regeneration took a few weeks, it'd be possible that Retribution was involved in setting those events in motion, in cahoots with Autonomy or else (less likely?) manipulating her into moving against Harmony and Scadrial

(I say "less likely" because Autonomy has been doing what she's doing for far longer than Taravangian has been a Shard)