A Valorous Inconsistency

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Something very strange is going on with Valor. I will lay out what little we know and go from there.

1) Valor and Harmony have talked. This was shown during the epigraphs.

Spoiler

I do think that Valor is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation.

2) Valor is somehow hidden, at least from Odium's perspective. As shown in interlude 4

Spoiler

He instead was most curious about the fact that two of the Shards appeared to be missing, completely vanished from interacting with the others. Hidden. One he understood with some effort. But Valor - where had Valor gone, and how did she hide from even his eyes?

3) Endowment has had 'dealings' with Valor, and gives a relative plethora of informaton on her, though for some strange reason some of it contradicts what we already know.

Is she just being spiteful to Hoid, or is something else going on? Though in my mind it's likely both.

Epigraphs of chapter 62 to 65

Spoiler

As for Valor, our dealings are none of your business - for largely the same reasons. Can you not leave her alone?

You need not always have the last word, though I know you like to collect them like badges of honor. I will not tell you where she is.

All I will say is that I have kept my bargain, and I did not go in person at her request for aid.

These days, it seems she and I are the only ones capable of maintaining any manner of isolation. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, she does not want to see you again. It has not been too long. No, I do not think it ever will be.

 

4) And finally, we have Tanavast's own perspective as he called for aid against Odium, only to be ignored.

Chapter 115

Spoiler

I MADE ONE FINAL ATTEMPT AT LOCATING VALOR, THE GREAT DRAGON GOD MEDELANTORIUS - AS SHE WAS A WARRIOR WHO WOULD SURELY JOIN ME. MEDELANTORIUS WAS NOT TO BE FOUND, UNFORTUNATELY. HAD ODIUM KILLED HER, AS HE HAD POOR AONA?

VALOR WOULD NOT HAVE DIED EASILY. I WOULD DOUBTLESS HAVE FELT THOSE WAVES OF DEATH RIPPLE THROUGH THE COSMERE.

And at the very end of Wind and Truth, Hoid sets himself the task of finding Valor to recruit her in the fight against Taravangian.

Some things have leapt out to me.

Harmony found Valor, Endowment also did, but Odium and Honor couldn't?

Harmony says that Valor would like to meet Hoid again, Endowment vehemently says otherwise?

Valor is isolated from the other Shards, yet requires their aid against something?

What the heck is going on with Valor!?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Not letting those whom you are preparing to fight collect information about you is kind of basic tactics. I doubt you can read a lot out of her current isolation.

Why she hid from Tanavast is the interesting question. It may be as simple as having a fool suffer the consequences of his own actions. That is what, at the end of the day, Cultivation also did. It may be a dragon thing.

[Argenti he/him]

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Not letting those whom you are preparing to fight collect information about you is kind of basic tactics. I doubt you can read a lot out of her current isolation.

Why she hid from Tanavast is the interesting question. It may be as simple as having a fool suffer the consequences of his own actions. That is what, at the end of the day, Cultivation also did. It may be a dragon thing.

I bet her shardic intent wouldn't let her help tannavast anyway. He's a coward: Valor's Shard would Rebel against helping a coward flee or survive the consequences of his own actions 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I bet her shardic intent wouldn't let her help tannavast anyway. He's a coward: Valor's Shard would Rebel against helping a coward flee or survive the consequences of his own actions 

Could you elaborate? I get that helping a coward is anathema to Valor. But why would she consider Tanavast a coward? I don't see that? He dies for what he believes in.

[Argenti he/him]

52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Could you elaborate? I get that helping a coward is anathema to Valor. But why would she consider Tanavast a coward? I don't see that? He dies for what he believes in.

I wouldn't call him a coward, but a Shard might. He stopped a direct confrontation by backstabbing an ally who wanted peace (BAM). If that's not cowardly, It's certainly not Valorous.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

26 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I wouldn't call him a coward, but a Shard might. He stopped a direct confrontation by backstabbing an ally who wanted peace (BAM).

Didn't that happen later? Well, with a Shard earlier or later is not as set in stone.

But then I have to ask, why did she hide? Isn't it valorous to tell another Shard to get lost?

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Didn't that happen later? Well, with a Shard earlier or later is not as set in stone.

 

Yes It did happen later; but as you said shards have ??? reasons. 

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But then I have to ask, why did she hide? Isn't it valorous to tell another Shard to get lost?

I agree here; it makes no sense for her to even be able to hide. Valor, I assume is courage stripped of context. Foolish courage that rushes into something without thinking, without Reason, Mercy, Or Honor.  

Why the heck can she hide????? I would bet her future sight sucks, her shard is focused on now, what's right in front of her. Reason being hidden makes sense, but Valor? Unless somehow they've merged, Valor's shard should go to war with the vessel at the very idea of avoiding a conflict. 

[Ewery1]

6 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Yes It did happen later; but as you said shards have ??? reasons. 

I agree here; it makes no sense for her to even be able to hide. Valor, I assume is courage stripped of context. Foolish courage that rushes into something without thinking, without Reason, Mercy, Or Honor.  

Why the heck can she hide????? I would bet her future sight sucks, her shard is focused on now, what's right in front of her. Reason being hidden makes sense, but Valor? Unless somehow they've merged, Valor's shard should go to war with the vessel at the very idea of avoiding a conflict. 

Maybe she's not hiding, maybe something else hid her...

WAIT I THINK IT'S THIS! My crack theory is that Cultivation hid her from Odium & Honor's power otherwise Valor would have immediately joined the fight.

Edited December 8, 2024 by Ewery1

[+Crossen]

Brandon has a certain way about talking about the power of Shards. He tends to state the Shard then give in world examples of the power. For example here is when Dalinar picks up Honor:

Quote

     Dalinar strode toward Odium, the power of Honor surrounding him. He saw it, true honor, in the efforts of two young people to set right an ancient wrong. In the way a young spearman rose to his feet in the darkness. In a man who stood with friends to save a city that was not his own. In the Lightweaver who refused the lies and accepted truth. Even in the way a queen who had been wrong resolved to do better.

We know from the day 5 interludes that Endowment and Valor seem to be working together.

  It seems that Valor may have intervened, along-side Nightblood (a creation from Endowment's power), to give Taravangian the strength to kill Rayse:

Quote

     Rumbling thunder. A brilliant, terrible golden light. Odium appeared. When he did, his face was distorted, his eyes shining with angry power. Thunder broke the landscape, and Szeth began to fade.
     You should not tempt me today, Taravangian! Odium thundered. I have lost my champion AGAIN, and now I am bound by an agreement I do not want. How do they know how to move against me? HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME, TARAVANGIAN? Have you been speaking to Sja-anat? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
The awe of that force—that transcendent power—left Taravangian quivering, spren of a dozen varieties swirling around him, fighting for his attention. So many emotions. He barely noticed Szeth pulling the knife free, for he was so overwhelmed —awed, frightened, excited all at once.
     Fear won.
     Taravangian cried out, his shoulder afire with pain, his body broken. His plans had been silly. How had he thought to outthink a god when stupid? He couldn’t do that when smart. No wonder he’d failed.
     Did you fail?
     The sword is here.
     Odium is here.
     Cold steel bit Taravangian’s skin as Szeth stabbed him right in the chest. At the same moment, Taravangian felt something pushing through his fear, his pain. An emotion he’d never thought to feel himself. Bravery.
     Bravery surged through him, so powerfully he could not help but move. It was the dying courage of a man on the front lines charging an enemy army. The glory of a woman fighting for her child. The feeling of an old man on his last day of life stepping into darkness.
     Bravery.
     The Physical Realm faded as Odium pulled Taravangian into the place between worlds. Taravangian’s body was not as weak here. This form was a manifestation of his mind and soul. And those were strong.
     The sword at Szeth’s waist—that strange, terrible sword—manifested here, in this realm where Odium brought Taravangian. The god looked down and saw the curling black darkness, and seemed surprised.
     Taravangian seized the sword and pulled it free of its scabbard, hearing it scream for pleasure. He turned and thrust it upward—black smoke curling around his hands.
     “Destroy!” the sword bellowed. “DESTROY!”
     Taravangian rammed it up into Odium’s chest.
     The sword drank greedily of the god’s essence, and as it did, Taravangian felt a snap. His body dying. Szeth finishing the job. He knew it immediately. Taravangian was dead. Anger rose in him like he had never known.
     Szeth had killed him!
     Odium screamed, and the golden place shattered, turning to darkness. The sword undulated in Taravangian’s grip, pulling power from the god it had stabbed.
     The figure that contained Odium’s power—the person who controlled it— evaporated, taken by the sword. That alone was so much Investiture that
Taravangian felt the sword grow dull in his fingers. Full, lethargic. As when a hot brand was shoved into a barrel of water, there was an initial hiss—but this power was too vast for the sword to drink.
     It killed the person holding that power, however, which left a hole. A need. A … vacuum, like a gemstone suddenly without Stormlight. It reached out, and
Taravangian felt a distinct Connection to it.
     Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him.
     His soul vibrated.
     Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.
     Taravangian hesitated briefly, then thrust his hands into the well of power.
     And Ascended to godhood, becoming Odium.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

7 minutes ago, Crossen said:

Brandon has a certain way about talking about the power of Shards. He tends to state the Shard then give in world examples of the power. For example here is when Dalinar picks up Honor:

We know from the day 5 interludes that Endowment and Valor seem to be working together.

  It seems that Valor may have intervened, along-side Nightblood (a creation from Endowment's power), to give Taravangian the strength to kill Rayse:

 

Yes! I always thought that passage on Bravery seemed like a shard description and stuck out there. 

[Argenti he/him]

20 hours ago, Crossen said:

Brandon has a certain way about talking about the power of Shards. He tends to state the Shard then give in world examples of the power. For example here is when Dalinar picks up Honor:

We know from the day 5 interludes that Endowment and Valor seem to be working together.

  It seems that Valor may have intervened, along-side Nightblood (a creation from Endowment's power), to give Taravangian the strength to kill Rayse:

 

Now that is very cool. I very much agree with you; it seems like valor interfered here. The shardic descriptions seem like they follow the same form. It's not surprising that a place of almost 10,000 years of constant war drew in the god of couruge. 

[Kelsier Kenobi]

I’m super curious about Valor moving forward.  I’d be shocked if she doesn’t play a major role in books 6-10.  I’ve seen there are a lot of theories floating around about what happened to Dalinar at the end but I’m 99.9% on Team Valor.  As in Valor claimed his soul.

[NattyBo]

What if Valor is hiding on the shattered plains and Retribution’s well of power blinds him to her presence there? 

Edited December 9, 2024 by NattyBo

[TheOneKEA]

2 hours ago, NattyBo said:

What if Valor is hiding on the shattered plains and Retribution’s well of power blinds him to her presence there? 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I suspect that her Cognitive presence is hiding within the interference caused by the Investiture from the Shardpool.

[Trutharchivist he/him]

3 hours ago, NattyBo said:

What if Valor is hiding on the shattered plains and Retribution’s well of power blinds him to her presence there? 

That would contradict what Endowment said: that she and Valor are the only ones who have kept their promises.

To be fair, Endowment does already contradict existing data. However, I don't think she lied completely.

[coolsnow7]

On 12/8/2024 at 9:29 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

These days, it seems she and I are the only ones capable of maintaining any manner of isolation. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, she does not want to see you again. It has not been too long. No, I do not think it ever will be.

Who do we think is lying: Edgli or Sazed? I lean towards Edgli. 

[DangerousPants]

The wording might be important there.

Any manner of isolation isn't clear cut as "Valor just isn't on the same planet as another Shard."  The manner of isolation could be literally isolated on Roshar, staying super low profile.  Alternatively it could be true, but an independent sliver of Valor could be on Roshar if you follow the Taravingian got a Valor bump with Nightblood while killing Rayse?  Some equivalent to the Spren maybe?  

It also doesn't rule out Valor beating the other shards to Roshar and then not being discovered?  I don't know what motivation would be there for that, but it seems easier than showing up and nobody noticing...unless Cultivation noticed and/or covered them and simply didn't tell the other Shards?  She did seem pretty estranged (possibly due to Tanner/Honor being really checked out) from Tanner/Honor by Honor's narrated life story (like Tanner not being able to remember how long it had been since they were together).  

[NH2316]

 

On 12/8/2024 at 9:29 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Harmony says that Valor would like to meet Hoid again, Endowment vehemently says otherwise?

On 12/8/2024 at 9:29 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

These days, it seems she and I are the only ones capable of maintaining any manner of isolation. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, she does not want to see you again. It has not been too long. No, I do not think it ever will be.

Could be totally off base here.....but....

On my initial read this passage read to me a bit like someone (Endowment) protecting their friend (Valor) from an ex (Hoid).

 

I have absolutely no proof of this, just vibes.  But for what its worth.... My theory is that Valor's Vessel and Hoid were close before the Shattering (probably lovers, but maybe just close friends or siblings), and whatever circumstances/reasons that led one to take up a Shard and one to refuse (Hoid) put them at cross-purposes ending with intense feelings of hurt and betrayal.  Maybe Valor in the present time is legitimately conflicted on talking to Hoid again (hence the difference between Endowment's and Harmony's reads of the situation), but Endowment is playing the role of the Best Friend in Every Rom-Com - i.e. obligatory hate for Hoid (the ex) and doing everything in her power to prevent Hoid and Valor from getting together again (to protect Valor from getting further hurt).  The amount and quality of disdain Endowment has for Hoid feels so personal and specific in a way that could be read as "You hurt my best friend because you're a selfish jerk and I won't forgive you for that".  That has certainly been my initial read of the Endowment-Hoid dynamic, with part of that assessment being that it seems like Hoid doesn't hate Endowment as much as she hates him (unlike, for instance, his mutual and symmetric loathing of Rayse). It feels like Hoid knows the reason Endowment hates him so much is kind of/partly/mostly justified, even if he maybe doesn't;t fully agree with her point of view.  That seems like a very Hoid kind of feeling & story - "Even if I don't ultimately regret what I did, and even if I don't really like Endowment personally, I know I acted like a shithead and I hurt Valor, so I kind of understand Endowment for protecting Valor from me".

This could even work within the theory that Valor is on Roshar.... maybe Valor immediately fled to Roshar after the Shattering to isolate herself (himself? themselves?) in grief with whatever went down and to move on from those events/Hoid himself.....only to be surprised when another Shard with a good-natured but somewhat bumbling Vessel (Tanavast) showed up too.  Valor then found some way to discretely hide herself and just kind of got stuck on Roshar secretly as more Shards started showing up and things started escalating.  It would be kind of funny in a tragic-ironic kind of way actually - like for example if immediately after the Shattering all Valor's Vessel wanted was to be left alone to get over their breakup and instead she/he/they ended up stuck in a cosmic house that everyone else moved into, thereafter being trapped living in the walls watching while more and more god-level tenants showed up to stomp around breaking stuff, one of those god-level tenants eventually even being her Ex (Hoid).

Again, this is a purely vibes based assessment and almost certainly wrong, but I think one that could square a lot of circles in what we know about the Endowment-Hoid-Valor relationship so far.

 

[Darth_Hel]

Could Harmony be seeping into Discord without noticing? Harmony thinks that seeking out Valor would allow a harmonious reunion, but instead it might be Discord if Valor truly does not wish to see Hoid (and he may even mess up whatever Valor is planning).

[MagicMaggot]

Considering the search for Valor is now Hoid's explicitly stated priority I do think it likely that we'll get a trail sooner rather than later, and with therw being 5 planned books (which might well include the first real on-page experiences of world-hopping) and something like 70 Hoid-years between SA 5 and 6, I personally doubt that she'll be on Roshar just based on that. Otherwise it would seem an odd choice to me to tease it now. 

And yes, I also got the feeling that the Hoid-Valor-relationship was more personal than that to other shards, and I also got a very protective vibe from Endowment, who immediately went after his sinister motives after talking about Valor. It's generally not a bad time to start delving into the person behind the jesk, if Hoid is going to make the step from plot convenience to protagonist sooner or later, so I don't think introducing personal elements in his chosen mission would be much of a surprise, either. He has one dragon-friend already, why not another one? 

[Darth_Hel]

Would Harmony know if Valor changed vessels? Endowment saying not to find Valor might be hiding that she helped the previous vessel escape, and not to look for them.

I wonder if the help given could be making the previous vessel into a returned? Allowing them to die and give up the power, forget their past.

 

Crackpot theory, Vasher is Valor’s previous vessel. Brought back, memory wiped, but still driven to be involved in major Cosmere events. 

[RedBlue]

On 12/10/2024 at 6:27 PM, NH2316 said:

On my initial read this passage read to me a bit like someone (Endowment) protecting their friend (Valor) from an ex (Hoid).

I had this exact same feeling from the back-and-forth, but I wasn’t sure if I was seeing things that weren’t there. It’s kind of hard to explain when you’re picking up something purely based off vibes.

It made me think of WoBs about Hoid having dated someone who went on to become a Shard, and also that he dated a dragon at some point.

Quote

Questioner

Is Hoid secretly a dragon?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is not secretly a dragon, but he did date one once.

Questioner 2

Who is the dragon that Hoid dated?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO!

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Quote

Questioner

Wit's dated a dragon; has Wit also dated a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Wit has dated someone who wasn't a Shard at the point, but at some point in the future became a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Medelantorius is both a Vessel and a dragon, so she ticks both of those boxes. And if she’s not Hoid’s ex, that raises the question of who is, because I haven’t gotten these vibes about any of the other Vessels. And at this point, all of them (or the associated Shards) have been mentioned at least once.

I have to say, if Valor and Endowment have been making major decisions on the basis of Valor’s past relationship drama, that lowers my opinion of both of them. Normal people can prioritise their own feelings and avoid their ex. People who choose to take up a Shard have a responsibility to prioritise larger conflicts in the cosmere over their personal issues.

[MagicMaggot]

9 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

People who choose to take up a Shard have a responsibility to prioritise larger conflicts in the cosmere over their personal issues.

Well... someone should probably tell them. I don't think we've met any original vessel that fit that description, yet. Which might have been a point of the "actually, the gods of this world are just guys like us"-thing that's so terrifyng about them. 

Edited January 19, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[RedBlue]

Just now, MagicMaggot said:

Well... someone should probably tell them. I don't think we've met any original vessel that fit that description, yet.

I mean, I could understand if Vessels can’t be more helpful for … y’know … good reasons. Like ‘my Shardic Intent says no’ or ‘I’m too busy putting out fires on my own planet’ or even ‘I think this problem will go away on its own.’

But ‘I’m giving my ex the cold shoulder’ is a really crumby reason to ignore a brewing crisis.

[MagicMaggot]

8 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

But ‘I’m giving my ex the cold shoulder’ is a really crumby reason to ignore a brewing crisis.

To be fair, we haven't heard that from said ex, we heard it from her assumed BFF, and that could be interpreted as a touching degree of loyalty. Apart from that, I'd say she mostly just doesn't like Hoid, and certainly doesn't trust him with her plans. Which describes most of the shards, doesn't it? Hoid is too much of a wild card for any responsible deity to invite. 

Edited January 19, 2025 by MagicMaggot
typo