Who gets warlight?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

In the text we see two groups who are still supplied with Investiture, presumably warlight

• The Singers
• The Fused in Shadesmar

Has Retribution told everybody that they can request warlight? Does that apply to everybody under the Everstorm? In other words, have the Azish just cut themselves off from the supply of Investiture?

Will the wild animals still be supplied? Or are we looking at a total ecological collapse?

[Krenn]

I'm inclined to guess that even if only the Singers on the Shattered Plains get Warlight, that they can probably still sell Warlight to everyone else.   Very likely,  anyone intelligent who prays to Retribution can have warlight, and anyone intelligent who refused to pray can just buy it.  wild plants and Animals probably get it for free,  or maybe it depends on who their 'owner' is. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 minutes ago, Krenn said:

I'm inclined to guess that even if only the Singers on the Shattered Plains get Warlight, that they can probably still sell Warlight to everyone else.

That depends on the assumption that warlight can be stored well in gemstones.

[Krenn]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That depends on the assumption that warlight can be stored well in gemstones.

Why wouldn't it be?  it was seen being stored in a Gemstone at the time of it's creation, right?  and Voidlight, Stormlight, and Anti-Light can all be stored in gems long-term, why shouldn't WarLight be the same?

I mean, they might need to use the Oathgates to ship it fast enough, but that doesn't seem so bad.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 minutes ago, Krenn said:

Why wouldn't it be?  it was seen being stored in a Gemstone at the time of it's creation, right?  and Voidlight, Stormlight, and Anti-Light can all be stored in gems long-term, why shouldn't WarLight be the same?

I mean, they might need to use the Oathgates to ship it fast enough, but that doesn't seem so bad.

Because the other hybrid light, Towerlight, stores really badly. Warlight cannot be that bad, as it has to last a day at least, but other than that, we don't know. The different lights vary drastically in storability.

The oathgates don't work without Urithiru and Urithiru is cut off. If Warlight stores as well as Stormlight, which regularly ran out during the Weeping, you will not be able to ship it far in large quantities over land in a cart. Actually, land transport will be very difficult for some time. All those rivers are now permanent. They will have to build a lot of bridges.

[Moirne she/her]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because the other hybrid light, Towerlight, stores really badly. Warlight cannot be that bad, as it has to last a day at least, but other than that, we don't know. The different lights vary drastically in storability.

The oathgates don't work without Urithiru and Urithiru is cut off. If Warlight stores as well as Stormlight, which regularly ran out during the Weeping, you will not be able to ship it far in large quantities over land in a cart. Actually, land transport will be very difficult for some time. All those rivers are now permanent. They will have to build a lot of bridges.

Unless the people transporting it just open the tops off their wagons every night and pray to Retribution to have it refilled?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, Moirne said:

Unless the people transporting it just open the tops off their wagons every night and pray to Retribution to have it refilled?

Then why are you transporting it in the first place? Presumably the refill does not work in Azimir. They will have to live without fabrials.

[Krenn]

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because the other hybrid light, Towerlight, stores really badly. Warlight cannot be that bad, as it has to last a day at least, but other than that, we don't know. The different lights vary drastically in storability.

The oathgates don't work without Urithiru and Urithiru is cut off. If Warlight stores as well as Stormlight, which regularly ran out during the Weeping, you will not be able to ship it far in large quantities over land in a cart. Actually, land transport will be very difficult for some time. All those rivers are now permanent. They will have to build a lot of bridges.

 

I bet you could just give a big enough pile of Warlight to a Windrunner,  and either he can open a gate right there, or he can fly back to Urithiru one time to jumpstart Urithiru if needed.  How long is the flight between those two locations, anyway?

Worst case scenario, every time his spheres reach half-capacity, he cross-loads them so that half his spheres are at full-charge and half are at zero,  so he can multi-stage himself that way.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Krenn

[Isilel]

19 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The oathgates don't work without Urithiru and Urithiru is cut off.

 

Didn't all Oathgate spren turn back into their original form? All of the Oathgates should be permanently disabled.

 

19 hours ago, Krenn said:

give a big enough pile of Warlight to a Windrunner,  and either he can open a gate right there, or he can fly back to Urithiru one time to jumpstart Urithiru if needed. 

See above, but there is also no reason to think that an uncorrupted Windrunner can use Warlight. Also, all of Urithiru is enclosed in a crystal bubble.

On the whole, I can't imagine how Rosharan flora and fauna could survive for years  without the sun, under permanent rain and with no highstorms that were necessary for advancing to it's various life stages, as well as lacking the abundance of free-floating investiture that it is adapted to. TRetribution is crazy.

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

See above, but there is also no reason to think that an uncorrupted Windrunner can use Warlight. Also, all of Urithiru is enclosed in a crystal bubble.

I dont see why they couldnt. They are able to use towerlight, why should warlight be any different?

 

If for some reason they arent, Navanis experiments should still be valid: separating warlight / towerlight for usable stormlight using the rhythms.

 

The spren, through the new oathpact, are separate from Retribution - otherwise they would be absorbed. This should mean that their powers work as they did before.

 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont see why they couldnt. They are able to use towerlight, why should warlight be any different?

Are you looking for evidence or a theoretical reason?

Evidence: A month after the Stormfall still no magical healing in Azimir. Either they don't get Warlight or it does not work.
Reason: It has an odium-component that makes it unsuitable

4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If for some reason they arent, Navanis experiments should still be valid: separating warlight / towerlight for usable stormlight using the rhythms.

Do the tones for Odium and Honor still exist? I mean sure you can play them, but do they still mean anything in an arcane sense?

5 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The spren, through the new oathpact, are separate from Retribution - otherwise they would be absorbed. This should mean that their powers work as they did before.

They do. In Urithiru, because they get Towerlight. I suppose that was Lift's intended mission. She'd power the Edgedancers should Retribution have sucked up the other spren.

[Ewery1]

11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont see why they couldnt. They are able to use towerlight, why should warlight be any different?

 

If for some reason they arent, Navanis experiments should still be valid: separating warlight / towerlight for usable stormlight using the rhythms.

 

The spren, through the new oathpact, are separate from Retribution - otherwise they would be absorbed. This should mean that their powers work as they did before.

 

 

The problem with applying Navani’s experiments here is that it’s not clear that they’ll work anymore.

The Lost Metal spoilers:

Spoiler

Same thing as Harmonium, it’s likely fused into one power and very difficult to separate into Atium and Lerasium. 

I would not be surprised if the Rhythm of War is unified without constituent parts. 

Edited December 9, 2024 by Ewery1

[listerfeend]

14 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

The problem with applying Navani’s experiments here is that it’s not clear that they’ll work anymore.

The Lost Metal spoilers:

  Hide contents

Same thing as Harmonium, it’s likely fused into one power and very difficult to separate into Atium and Lerasium. 

I would not be surprised if the Rhythm of War is unified without constituent parts. 

That has been a thought I've had as well. The Pure Tones of Roshar should just be the Rhythm of War at this point. Cultivation, Honor and Odium are gone, and only Retribution remains. I should think that this will have a dramatic effect on pretty much all aspects of life on Roshar

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Evidence: A month after the Stormfall still no magical healing in Azimir. Either they don't get Warlight or it does not work.
Reason: It has an odium-component that makes it unsuitable

It has only been a month and the city was besieged. Azir will be able to get Warlight when things have settled a bit and they can start trading with their neighbors. 

 

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Do the tones for Odium and Honor still exist? I mean sure you can play them, but do they still mean anything in an arcane sense?

Spoilers (lost metal): 

Spoiler

Sure they do. I see this combination as the same as Harmony - just with Intents that are not fighting each other. Harmony is a new thing, and is not just the combination of Pres / Ruin - but it still contains Pres / Ruin. This is evidenced by the dual mists and extracting Lerasium and Atium from Harmonium. This should be actually impossible if the shards were truly merged. 

 

14 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

The problem with applying Navani’s experiments here is that it’s not clear that they’ll work anymore.

Why wouldn't they?? So we spend an ENTIRE book experimenting with the rhythms and then the next book all of that is irrelevant now? I highly doubt that. Manipulating lights should be far easier than any solid form of investiture. I would be extremely disappointed if Navanis experiments mean nothing.

 

14 hours ago, Ewery1 said:

I would not be surprised if the Rhythm of War is unified without constituent parts. 

I definitely would - because that is not the Rhythm of War. We know from the book ROW that the rhythm of war is the combination of honor and odium, like towerlight is the combination of honor and cultivation. If they were merged into one rhythm, it would no longer be the Rhythm of War. It would be the pure tone of whatever shard that becomes. Retribution is a single shard made of two intents. Those two intents are still distinct within him. 

 

Wat page 1295

Quote

 

They are protected, his powers said.

By what? Retribution demanded.

By an oath and a circle, the powers said. By Adonalsiums strength. Ten stand against you, using the piece of us within them. Honor demands their oaths be followed.

 

As evidenced by this passage, he holds two distinct intents. Not one. Honor still very much exists, it is just now entangled with odium. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

It has only been a month and the city was besieged. Azir will be able to get Warlight when things have settled a bit and they can start trading with their neighbors.

Unfortunately it does not look like they'll get it any time soon. Adolin in chapter#146

Quote

and Radiants across the world are unable to use their power

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:24 PM, Oltux72 said:

That depends on the assumption that warlight can be stored well in gemstones.

Quote

WaT pg 1308 "... they had done as instructed last night, testing his word, and now had filled gemstones.

I think anyone under Retibutions control can have light if they ask for it as the Listeners do in the Shattered Plains as he knows that is the only way they can grow any crops/food

But it CAN be stored in gemstones, which means eventually Span reeds will start to work again. If they could be powered soley by Voidlight in RoW, I can't imagine that Warlight won't be able to power them and other fabrials

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I think anyone under Retibutions control can have light if they ask for it as the Listeners do in the Shattered Plains as he knows that is the only way they can grow any crops/food

But it CAN be stored in gemstones, which means eventually Span reeds will start to work again. If they could be powered soley by Voidlight in RoW, I can't imagine that Warlight won't be able to power them and other fabrials

In the sense that if you knew that you can do so, it would work (unless there is something that would prevent you from praising Retribution with the right Intent). But it looks increasingly like they don't know and the Listeners are the exceptional group that does know because he sent them - and nobody else - a messenger to tell them, presumably to be on the safe side with Honor.

That is in principle independent of the question of how well it can be stored in gemstones. Even Towerlight can be stored. It is just gone in seconds. For Stormlight we know that the limit is weeks (that can be derived from the story line about the Weeping). All we know about Warlight is that it must be storable so long that you can use the gems you charged at midnight for a day. That, however, only gives a lower limit.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

In the sense that if you knew that you can do so, it would work (unless there is something that would prevent you from praising Retribution with the right Intent). But it looks increasingly like they don't know and the Listeners are the exceptional group that does know because he sent them - and nobody else - a messenger to tell them, presumably to be on the safe side with Honor.

That is in principle independent of the question of how well it can be stored in gemstones. Even Towerlight can be stored. It is just gone in seconds. For Stormlight we know that the limit is weeks (that can be derived from the story line about the Weeping). All we know about Warlight is that it must be storable so long that you can use the gems you charged at midnight for a day. That, however, only gives a lower limit.

Given that he has his Fused, or at least El, to rule the human areas of his lands per earlier statements of the book, I have to assume that the human lands will be able to access Warlight moving forward. 

It's not explicitly stated, no, but it must be the case. 

As to the durability of Warlight in gems... Voidlight seems to be able to store almost indefinitely, Stormlight for weeks. I would imagine that Warlight is more on that end of the spectrum vs what Lifelight and Towerlight were. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Given that he has his Fused, or at least El, to rule the human areas of his lands per earlier statements of the book, I have to assume that the human lands will be able to access Warlight moving forward. 

It's not explicitly stated, no, but it must be the case.

The human lands is not the humans. It is quite possible that he wants, at least for now, the Singers to rule by controlling Investiture they get by the Song of Prayer, if it is still working,and maybe cull the weaker parts of the human population.

[teknopathetic he/him]

We still have Lift who can make Cultivation light. Perhaps her light could be used to work some fabrials at a longer range. 

[BinarySecond]

On 12/9/2024 at 1:05 AM, Moirne said:

Unless the people transporting it just open the tops off their wagons every night and pray to Retribution to have it refilled?

Just set up on the border right under the Everstorm. Shipping Warlight around Roshar seems relatively pointless. Off world sure; if they can.

[Jbbi]

Do we even know if praying for war light guarantees receiving it?

I feel it’s implied that it’s at Retribution’s discretion and as such if your Intent to sell/give to his enemies he may not bestow the War light. If it was guaranteed to receive the light then why pray at all? I’d have thought if guaranteed that the storm would work more like the high storm with every sphere in Retribution’s domain being invested at midnight automatically. 

[BinarySecond]

5 minutes ago, Jbbi said:

Do we even know if praying for war light guarantees receiving it?

I feel it’s implied that it’s at Retribution’s discretion and as such if your Intent to sell/give to his enemies he may not bestow the War light. If it was guaranteed to receive the light then why pray at all? I’d have thought if guaranteed that the storm would work more like the high storm with every sphere in Retribution’s domain being invested at midnight automatically. 

I think Retribution wants people to come to him; it benefits his popularity base if he just gives it out to anyone who goes through the motions. After a few weeks? Months? Years? They may actually be on board with him.

[Localconfusi0n]

On 12/11/2024 at 4:42 AM, Jbbi said:

Do we even know if praying for war light guarantees receiving it?

I feel it’s implied that it’s at Retribution’s discretion and as such if your Intent to sell/give to his enemies he may not bestow the War light. If it was guaranteed to receive the light then why pray at all? I’d have thought if guaranteed that the storm would work more like the high storm with every sphere in Retribution’s domain being invested at midnight automatically. 

Retribution isn't even on Roshar anymore, he mentions that he'll have to leave an Avatar in control, that wasn't his exact wording but it's clearly what he meant. So it's a safe bet the Avatar is actually dishing out the Investiture on Roshar atm. From what little we know of Avatars, they're distinct beings. Autonomy had to "instill a powerful dislike" for Hoid in one of their Avatars to deter him from influencing it. From this we can infer that the Avatar on Roshar has independence and choice of its own. 

So it's a pretty safe bet, imo, that humans will get access to Warlight soon enough. They just have to convince a piece of Retribution, separate and distinct from Taravangian, to grant it. 

[Elder]

The fact that it’s provided nightly (as opposed to on the intermittent schedule of the High Storms) makes me think it’s got a poor shelf life.