Who gets warlight?

[MagicMaggot]

I very much doubt that the investiture problem will be solved offscreen before book 6. Solving these problems seems like a Navani thing to me, and with the magic system of Roshar essentially being redefined, it would be strange to just skip an exploration of the complications to go basically back to where we started, just with a different shade of light. 

As to the how... Maybe they'll successfully split Towerlight and use the Stormlight part. Maybe Retribution will get his Warlight into circulation enough to make it viable for the good guys, either directly or split. Maybe Navani will find a method to make Towerlight last outside the tower, as she hinted at at the start of WaT. Maybe Lifelight and/or Voidlight from the Nightwatcher/Mishram will play a role. Maybe more spren being "enlightened" by Sja will make a difference. Maybe investiture from off-world will play a larger role, considering the heightened interest in Retribution's world we can assume now. Maybe a combination of methods. 

But certainly we'll see some sciencing around that topic. 
It might be nice to see the accessible power level drop for a while in book 6, before it escalates again. 

 

Edit:

Also, I'm pretty sure that the investiture-dependent creatures will be fine. They mostly existed before the arrival of the shards anyways, didn't they?

Edited December 15, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Isilel]

On 12/15/2024 at 2:04 PM, MagicMaggot said:

I very much doubt that the investiture problem will be solved offscreen before book 6. Solving these problems seems like a Navani thing to me,

 

I have to say that personally, I dislike the very common trope that nothing of substance gets done, unless a protagonist does it.

Ditto how building a team is something that is used more for the protagonist's character progression than for any resulting benefit for the problem-solving in the narrative.

Navani has made a breakthrough in Rosharan Investiture science. She also built a team that should be able to work on applications from there. 

The method that the Ghostbloods intended to use to export stormlight might also provide a helpful clue, which would give the raid on the Ghostblood meeting and capture of some relatively highly placed members in WaT a bit more meaning.

There is also Vasher, who, for some inexplicable reason, provided Gavilar with anti-Light, but refrained from doing the same for Our Heroes, who actually could have used it to deal with the Fused. And who is more than capable of inventing a  method  for the splitting of the Towerlight. Conveniently, one of the main PoVs of book 6 is positioned to become close to him.

Etc.

Finally, splitting things apart may even be against Navani's calling as a Bondsmith. 

As to things happening off-screen, I suspect that Lift is the book 6 flashback PoV for a reason. Given her age, there likely wouldn't be that many chapters dealing with her past and the rest will fill the readers in on the events during the decade between the arcs.

 

[MagicMaggot]

23 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I have to say that personally, I dislike the very common trope that nothing of substance gets done, unless a protagonist does it.

 

The flipside of that trope is that the interesting stuff is supposed to happen on screen, though. I wouldn't expect the solution to wait for Navani, if there was enough expected Roshar screentime before her return. But we are about to skip a decade, aren't we? 

[Isilel]

50 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

The flipside of that trope is that the interesting stuff is supposed to happen on screen, though. 

 

And it can still happen on-screen in Lift's flashback. She would have to be involved in those experiments in a supporting role anyway - to provide them with pure Cultivation's tone and lifelight. And now that I think about it, she would be the logical person to drag Vasher into it. His continued presence and covert Oppenheimering so far must have a reason, right?

We have also been reminded in Rysn interview that the Windrunner Huijo is a talented budding(?) artifabrian as well,  and that they have been working on some kind of flying device together?

IMHO, it would be incredibly weird and unsatisfying if everything gets frozen for 10 years and be where WaT ended when the next arc starts. 

If this was the goal, the gap could have been just just 3 to 5 years - with time dilation Mistborn Era 3 could still have happened prior to it and Lift would have been as old as Shallan in WoK in book 6 or even Kaladin's age in Cenn's chapter.

[MagicMaggot]

8 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And it can still happen on-screen in Lift's flashback.

I personally would hate a solution through flashbacks much more than a frozen problem, to be honest. But I don't think it really has to be one or the other. When I say that I don't expect the problem to be solved in the gap, I mean that I think that investiture scarcity will probably remain a problem. I certainly wouldn't expect there to be no workarounds that were developed within the 10-year gap. I'd expect radiant action to be viable in some limited fashion, but with energy too valuable to waste, since it won't just fall from the sky anymore. But I'd also expect the basically unlimited investiture supply they had before the Night of Sorrows to return sooner or later, in a dramatic fashion, where we can see it happening. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

There is also Vasher, who, for some inexplicable reason, provided Gavilar with anti-Light, but refrained from doing the same for Our Heroes, who actually could have used it to deal with the Fused. And who is more than capable of inventing a  method  for the splitting of the Towerlight. Conveniently, one of the main PoVs of book 6 is positioned to become close to him.

Feel like I have to step in to defend my boy here... just because Vasher helped create the initial anti-light that Gavilar had, doesn't mean he knew how to weaponize it against the fused per se.

Also... the Interlude that has him in it seems to indicate that he was captured and held/tortured the whole time of the Tower's invasion through when Lift found him, so he wasn't available to help do that at that point. 

maybe he could have stepped up earlier, but maybe also he felt regret about providing the anti-light under duress (maybe?) to Gavilar and didn't want to interfere in this world by helping make large explosive things? 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[DSCrankshaw]

I personally think it likely that Radiants can use Warlight, but that they won't have easy access to it.

[logicless.bt]

My hope is that Radiants can use Warlight but not heal with it. Would make much more dynamic fights if they and their enemies weren't just hitting each other until one side ran out of fuel for both healing and Surges.

[Treamayne]

On 12/11/2024 at 4:42 AM, Jbbi said:

Do we even know if praying for war light guarantees receiving it?

I feel it’s implied that it’s at Retribution’s discretion and as such if your Intent to sell/give to his enemies he may not bestow the War light. If it was guaranteed to receive the light then why pray at all? I’d have thought if guaranteed that the storm would work more like the high storm with every sphere in Retribution’s domain being invested at midnight automatically. 

If it works like the Song of Prayer for Voidlight (RoW Ch 67) then it seems to be a mostly-automatic response - but always with a chance that you draw the Shard's attention with the Prayer (unlikely, but possible). 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

On 12/18/2024 at 12:49 AM, Isilel said:

And now that I think about it, she would be the logical person to drag Vasher into it.

Unrelated but this reminded me of an old theory of mine..

Vasha can make lifeless statues and is now in a place with 100s of Radient statues..

Mr S has said that different magic systems can produce the same affect, so how much of a stretch would it be for to create lifeless with say.. towerlight?

Edited December 22, 2024 by Hoids Imaginary Friend

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Unrelated but this reminded me of an old theory of mine..

Vasha can make lifeless statues and is now in a place with 100s of Radient statues..

Mr S has said that different magic systems can produce the same affect, so how much of a stretch would it be for to create lifeless with say.. towerlight?

It's possible, however nobody, not even Vasher or Hoid, know how to convert Stormlight/Towerlight into Breaths, which is the easiest way of using a different type of investiture for Awakening. 

Spoiler

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive.

To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture.

Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

Celestial_Blu3

How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019)

 

[MagicMaggot]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:43 PM, alder24 said:

It's possible, however nobody, not even Vasher or Hoid, know how to convert Stormlight/Towerlight into Breaths

Did I misread the answers you posted here, or did Brandon actually not include Vasher in his explanation of what Azure or Hoid could do here? Might not have been deliberate, and there might be other moments he was clearer, sure, but from that question and answer alone I couldn't really deduce that Vasher wouldn't be able to do it. 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[alder24]

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

Did I misread the answers you posted here, or did Brandon actually not include Vasher in his explanation of what Azure or Hoid could do here? Might not have been deliberate, and there might be other moments he was clearer, sure, but from that question and answer alone I couldn't really deduce that Vasher wouldn't be able to do it. 

It's not that he wouldn't be able to do this, but right now he doesn't know how to do it as not even Hoid who knows almost everything doesn't know how to convert Stormlight to Breaths. Vasher obviously can learn how to do it so it's possible.

[MagicMaggot]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

, but right now he doesn't know how to do it as not even Hoid who knows almost everything doesn't know how to convert Stormlight to Breaths.

Hm, so the idea is that if Hoid doesn't know it, one of the five scholars can't have already learned it? Hm, I'm not so sure about that. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

34 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Hm, so the idea is that if Hoid doesn't know it, one of the five scholars can't have already learned it? Hm, I'm not so sure about that. 

Either Brandon mis-spoke or was deliberate in his wording in one of two ways

• Deliberate option 1 - He left Vasher's name out of the two people he did name not knowing how to convert Stormlight to Breaths because Vasher DOES know and he's being deliberately obtuse. 
• Deliberate option 2 - He had just mentioned how Vasher uses Stormlight to feed off and then didn't need to include him in the list of people who don't know how to convert it because it's implied Vasher also doesn't because he feeds off the stormlight as is and even Hoid can't do it, so obviously Vasher can't...

I'd like to believe it's option 1, but feel pretty strongly it will end up being option 2

By luck or Fortune, Vasher also ended up trapped in the one place on Roshar where he can still reliably feed on a form of Light. If he were outside the Tower, he'd have to figure out a way to get Warlight and I don't think he wants to draw Todium's eye. 

I'm actually super interested to see what Vasher gets up to and hope we get a Novella/Novelette with him and Lift's training before we get SA6. Maybe he can help them figure out more fun stuff about light in the interim as well. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's not that he wouldn't be able to do this, but right now he doesn't know how to do it as not even Hoid who knows almost everything doesn't know how to convert Stormlight to Breaths. Vasher obviously can learn how to do it so it's possible.

 

46 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Hm, so the idea is that if Hoid doesn't know it, one of the five scholars can't have already learned it? Hm, I'm not so sure about that. 

 

3 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Either Brandon mis-spoke or was deliberate in his wording in one of two ways

• <snip>

I'm actually super interested to see what Vasher gets up to and hope we get a Novella/Novelette with him and Lift's training before we get SA6. Maybe he can help them figure out more fun stuff about light in the interim as well. 

Was this not directly covered in this WoB:

Spoiler

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

 

[MagicMaggot]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Was this not directly covered in this WoB:

 

Ah, thanks. I was specifically critiquing the reading of the posted source here, not claiming to know better. That clears it up. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 12/23/2024 at 8:54 AM, Treamayne said:

 

 

Was this not directly covered in this WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

 

Suppose it was!