Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (No Cosmere Edition)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

42 minutes ago, ApatheticMahouShoujo said:

My favorite part was definitely the chapter where Taravangian and Jasnah argue for the fate of Thaylenah. Although most of the book was great, that was just such a big standout moment for me. 

So much of this book was hard for me to read, but that one was particularly rough. I felt SOOO bad for Jasnah through the breakdown of herself and her failure in Thaylenah. Especially when she got back to find Wit's note and realize she just wanted someone to hold.... so rough 

I am intrigued for where it goes from there in future stories though

[Vanya Taneva]

Loved the book. I was not expecting all of the twists or the reveals which made them better form me.

My standout character was Szeth. He was always interesting but really became a favorite in this book. I can't wait to see what he does next. It warms my heart that he got married. I cryed the most at his chapters I think, he was just so moving.

Overall pretty much all the characters got satisfying endings.

Kaladin and Adolin had amazing journeys. Lots of crying here too. Initially I did not want for Kaladin to die but the way it was written did not feel sad, just a new beginning.

I love that Adolin found his own worth beyond everyone elses expectations. It is very good that now he has Maya by his side  because I feel she understands him the best. We will see how he reunites with Shalaln and their baby. Will it be really 10 years before they see each other. She will have to be even more inventive to survive and go back. Loved her revelations in the book and her getting a little bit better. 

The trip through the Spiritual realm was very informative. I jumped when I saw the viewpoint of Honor. I have to say that Honor and Cultivation were a little underwhelming. I guess I was imagining that they were better people, more willing to sacrifice. And at the end Cultivation just ran. But this is now a theme in the Cosmere that the vessels are not perfect, or perfect for the powers.

I expected Dalinar to die but the way he did and his choice was inspired. I did not like the Gavinor champion choice but we will see what he does in the future.

The way Jasnah was confronted to reevaluate her stances was also very good. 

Taravangian was very interesting as usual. I am glad he was not killed permanently. We will see how the new power will change him. I guess it will not be for the better. The best parts for me were first when he destroyed his city and when he revealed that he had saved the people. 

Overall a great end for the first arc. I look forward to the next one.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

47 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

So much of this book was hard for me to read, but that one was particularly rough. I felt SOOO bad for Jasnah through the breakdown of herself and her failure in Thaylenah. Especially when she got back to find Wit's note and realize she just wanted someone to hold.... so rough 

I agree. Yet I must say that this is a dangerous path to tread for an author. You are on the edge of becoming preachy. You can read this part as a treatise on morality. Stories can - arguably should or will inevitably - come with a message, but it should flow from the story. Here in practical terms the message has become the story. It takes a master to pull that off and Brandon did it, but he can't keep writing books like that.
Hence, at the risk of repeating myself, this book is Brandon's Starship Troopers. Instead of lessons on moral philosophy from Mr. DuBois we got lessons on utilitarianism from Taravangian.

As for the impact on Jasnah, sorry, she asked Shallan the very same question. She deserves to be asked them herself.

[Mason Wheeler]

53 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

So much of this book was hard for me to read, but that one was particularly rough. I felt SOOO bad for Jasnah through the breakdown of herself and her failure in Thaylenah.

This was actually one of the better parts IMO.  I've been saying for years now that Jasnah's requisite Radiant mental condition is psychopathy, that her go-to solution to every problem is murder.  Even if she doesn't always go through with it, it's the first thing she thinks of: "resolve this problem by killing somebody," for any given value of "this problem."  It was good to see someone in-universe force her to acknowledge just how terrible and evil that is.  If only it could have happened under better circumstances.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

27 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

This was actually one of the better parts IMO.  I've been saying for years now that Jasnah's requisite Radiant mental condition is psychopathy, that her go-to solution to every problem is murder.  Even if she doesn't always go through with it, it's the first thing she thinks of: "resolve this problem by killing somebody," for any given value of "this problem."  It was good to see someone in-universe force her to acknowledge just how terrible and evil that is.  If only it could have happened under better circumstances.

Murder runs in the family. Sorry, I could not resist.

You could argue that Jasnah is just readier to adjust to the realities of a war of annihilation. The lesson she gets isn't that too much murder is wrong. Nobody ever claimed that hiring an assassin against Aesudan was wrong. Her lesson was rather that she was dishonest about her reasons to murder. Queen Fen Rrnamdi did not choose peace. She switched sides in a war. Thereby she enables Retribution to go on a better spree of conquest off world.

You could even read her lesson as an endorsement of stark patriotism. You do for your country what you need to do, morals be damned.

EDIT: Even regarding the robbers she executed nobody argued that executing them for their crimes, should they be apprehended conventionally, would be wrong. Nor that Jasnah would have acted immorally in killing them, had she been attacked by chance.
The problem there was seeking out and killing people for a lesson, even though they, in principle, did deserve death.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Oltux72
Forgot a part of the argument

[Mason Wheeler]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You could argue that Jasnah is just readier to adjust to the realities of a war of annihilation.

"There are thieves mugging wealthy people in town.  Let's go murder them."

"I don't like my brother's fiancée.  Let's hire an assassin 'to keep tabs on her.'"

"There's something wrong with Renarin's spren.  I should kill him."

"The Voidbringers are coming back.  We should find and kill a Herald."

Jasnah's first instinct to solve any given problem, whether or not it relates to a war of annihilation, always seems to be to kill somebody.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

"There's something wrong with Renarin's spren.  I should kill him."

"The Voidbringers are coming back.  We should find and kill a Herald."

Those are related to the war.

2 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

"There are thieves mugging wealthy people in town.  Let's go murder them."

"I don't like my brother's fiancée.  Let's hire an assassin 'to keep tabs on her.'"

These are not.

2 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Jasnah's first instinct to solve any given problem, whether or not it relates to a war of annihilation, always seems to be to kill somebody.

She is still Alethi. Now, I am afraid that is a bit unfair a characterisation. She also signs a peace treaty with the Listeners. She doesn't always react with murder. It is true that if she thinks that it is necessary, she will outright propose it. To that I have to say that first, she is an Alethi noble, and second, that is a sign of intelligence.

Furthermore, at the end of the day, the job of the Knights Radiant includes killing. They don't get these shiny, impossibly sharp blades for whittling sculptures out of marble. I could quote Nohadon's spiritual aspect, but you read the book.

[Mason Wheeler]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now, I am afraid that is a bit unfair a characterisation.

Well, let's not forget her contemptuous explanation to Shallan at the end of the first book, condemning her ancestors for enslaving the "useful" parshmen instead of doing the right thing and genociding them.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

20 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Well, let's not forget her contemptuous explanation to Shallan at the end of the first book, condemning her ancestors for enslaving the "useful" parshmen instead of doing the right thing and genociding them.

Well, then we need to ask the hard question: Was she wrong? The True Desolation would have been avoided. We have to make up our collective mind. Hoid would have let Roshar burn. Do we condemn him?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, then we need to ask the hard question: Was she wrong? The True Desolation would have been avoided. We have to make up our collective mind. Hoid would have let Roshar burn. Do we condemn him?

Hoid's epilogue shows even a change of heart from him on letting Roshar burn, though it comes after he'd already failed his objective of continuing Odium's containment. 

This question is honestly at the heart of the entire SA.

Basically the Stormlight Archive a giant trolly problem. Do you let Roshar burn under Odium's rule/reign for the sake of saving the rest of the Cosmere. 

It's what Honor did, it's what Hoid stated he would do. It's what Jasnah would have done, potentially, prior to her breakdown at the end. 

Dalinar chose to send the train down the track with the most people and let them deal with the it after Roshar dealing with it for 7k years or so. Do we condemn him for that choice? 

[Mason Wheeler]

38 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The True Desolation would have been avoided.

Would it have?

Odium had human followers before the Singers.  And the Thaylens to this day believe in The Passions.  It might have taken longer — or it might not have, if he hadn't spent millennia on a project targeting the Singers — but he almost certainly would eventually have raised up a different army.

[Archedeaus]

Overall, I loved it and I'm still reeling from it. 

Thought Azir was a bit tedious at first but I loved that Adolin and Yanagawan basically played Roshar's version of Warhammer 40k since I'm a player myself. The way the unoathed thing played out was amazing. 

The Ghostblood plot was fine. Loved that Rlain and Renarin got together. 

Kaladin and Szeth were amazing and I loved Kaladin trying to help others. Speaking of which, Kaladin's fifth ideal and becoming a Herald was so good. I hate that his body is in Braize but I'm glad both him and the Heralds are gonna be able to heal in that pocket world of theirs, and I'm so happy that Syl is with him. I still got sad when Kaladin left behind a body for Szeth to bury because I have a feeling Shallan and Adolin are gonna come across it in the future.

And Dalinar's arc. I LOVED it. Him giving up Honor, tricking Taravangian into taking it and basically screwing him over in the process. I also loved it when (I theorize Adonalsium somehow) gave Retribution the middle finger by yanking Dalinar into the afterlife. I wasn't a huge fan of the Blackthorn thing because it felt like Sanderson was trying to have it both ways, but its fine. 

Rating: 8.5-9/10

[Mason Wheeler]

That was another thing I found a little bit underwhelming: we saw two characters both take the fifth oath, and we still have no idea what it does.

2nd oath: Surgebinding.

3rd oath: Blade.

4th oath: Armor.

5th oath: ???

[Elder]

Cried 6 times.

1. Pattern pointing out to Shallan that, statistically, the idea that she kills all her mentors is a fallacy.

2. Adolin coming to terms with his father in the trenches… 

3. Kaladin hitting Nale with a flute concert….

4.  Windrunner 5th ideal

5. Renarin’s Eulogy for his father

6. Taln forgave them.

was thoroughly infuriated with Todium for what he did to both Jasnah and Dalinar/Gavinor.  Very smug about Retribution’s little secret: Dalinar was right.

Thrilled with all the instances of words being said.  Kaladin’s words were perfect.  Szeth skipping an oath actually makes sense to me.  In addition to Honor not being around to enforce the rules, it strikes me that people don’t always learn things in strict linear order. Szeth was learning the 5th ideal the entire time.   Given that A. Sky breakers were already exceptions to the rules with their oaths, and B. There’s apparently an alternate track out there, there’s clearly a lot more wiggle room than expected.

Completely floored by Dalinar’s decision.  I’m not saying I disagreed with it, but it definitely threw me for a loop.  

loved watching Wit applying for a job.

 

[DSCrankshaw]

On 12/9/2024 at 3:17 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

Honestly, I felt like the Unoathed and also Szeth skipping an ideal both violated Sanderson's First Law.  They came out of nowhere, because we had no understanding that either of them were possible.

I'm going to disagree with that. I felt the Unoathed wasn't just foreshadowed, I was waiting for it to happen. We knew that Adolin and Maya had a Connection to the deadeyes gathering at the trial, both from what the Honorspren said in Rhythm of War, and from what Maya said at the beginning of Wind and Truth. I likened it to how Platespren seem to be attracted to Radiants because of their bond with their spren, and it seemed like the deadeyes were drawn to Maya's and Adolin's growing bond. I was fully expecting Adolin to summon those Shardblades from Shadesmar in order to save the day in Azimir. I'll admit that I wasn't expecting the Plate to come along as well.

I was also not surprised when his Shardplate woke up--in fact, I was pretty sure that was how his duel with Abidi would resolve once we saw Abidi claim his Plate. Like I said, Platespren appear to be attracted to the bond between Radiants and their spren. While others said Adolin would have to reach the Fourth Ideal to get Plate, I thought it was clear even in Rhythm of War that his bond with Maya was stronger than the Nahel bond, not weaker. And we knew that Adolin thought that his Plate was behaving in unusual ways, when he tried to take it to Shadesmar.

I had been fairly certain since Oathbringer that Adolin would end up forming a Radiant-adjacent order of reawakened Shardblades, though I wasn't expecting the deadeyes to start recovering from the Recreance independently of that.

As for Szeth, we did learn that the dissenters follow different Skybreaker Oaths (Chapter 128, p. 1172 according to the Kindle App). So we already knew that his Fourth Ideal didn't necessarily have to be the same as Nale's Skybreakers. I don't think Szeth swore the Fifth Ideal, really. I think that what Nale's Skybreakers considered their Fifth Ideal was for Szeth his Fourth Ideal.

Edited December 12, 2024 by DSCrankshaw
Remove repetition.

[Elder]

On 12/7/2024 at 12:14 PM, Sasukerinnegan said:

 

I didn't expect Cultivation to flee. For all that Koravellium Avast judges both Honour and Odium, she herself has repeatedly chosen to flee whenever there is a confrontation.

 

May I suggest that she didn’t flee. I think she planned all of that as her desire to leave. Not saying this was her whole plan or her only plan, but she was resenting being bound to Roshar way back when Honor was still alive. She sent Dalinar after Honor’s power, created a divided man to be a divided vessel for 2 shards, and even made a Radiant who could be independent of both Honor and Retribution’s Light (who will be a flash back character in book six).  So, I think her exit was planned well in advance.

 

EDIT: possibly, Cultivation ran off and found the Night.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Elder

[lordofsoup]

Didn’t really enjoy the first 5 days.  They really seemed to drag.  The last 5 were good though.  Somewhat confused about why Hoid even bothered to say the Odium’s interference in the spiritual realm broke their agreement when it didn’t end up being used.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:14 AM, Mason Wheeler said:

That was another thing I found a little bit underwhelming: we saw two characters both take the fifth oath, and we still have no idea what it does.

2nd oath: Surgebinding.

3rd oath: Blade.

4th oath: Armor.

5th oath: ???

It is a little sad.

But I will say, we didn't learn nothing about it. In fact, we learnt perhaps the most important aspect of a Radiant who has managed to swear their 5th oath, and nothing exemplifies it better than Szeth. Consider the absolutely monumental shift in mindset his 5th oath required; possibly the biggest benefit of this oath is the mental stability and clarity you have to have attain to swear it which will make a person so much more effective at, well, everything.

And besides, if we saw everything now, how could Kaladin have his super dramatic entrance at the end of Book 6 where he shows of his crazy new powers 

[Kerberos]

On 12/10/2024 at 7:18 PM, listerfeend said:

Frankly, I had forgotten that saying. I sort of feel like hiding and discretion are maybe different things, but there is a lot in that about avoiding conflict when conflict doesn't serve the end goal, so, this is a possible caveat to what appears to be cowardice.  

To me it appears really clear that there is an apparent conflict between Valors purpose and how they're absent form the conflict. I see this as being Lampshaded in preparation for an eventual explanation.

I don't think we have enough evidence to seriously speculate on an explanation but the obvious ones to me is that she's either dead/detained or she's doing "something" that requires her to be absent/hidden.

I suppose it's also possible that "valor" means something different form what we think the same way "Honour" is rather more amoral than we'd expect, but I think that's less likely than the other possibilities.

[Kerberos]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:02 PM, Oltux72 said:

I agree. Yet I must say that this is a dangerous path to tread for an author. You are on the edge of becoming preachy. You can read this part as a treatise on morality. Stories can - arguably should or will inevitably - come with a message, but it should flow from the story. Here in practical terms the message has become the story. It takes a master to pull that off and Brandon did it, but he can't keep writing books like that.
Hence, at the risk of repeating myself, this book is Brandon's Starship Troopers. Instead of lessons on moral philosophy from Mr. DuBois we got lessons on utilitarianism from Taravangian.

As for the impact on Jasnah, sorry, she asked Shallan the very same question. She deserves to be asked them herself.

To me this was a part of the book that did not work, because if Taravangian offered a lesson on utilitarianism that lesson was "objections to utilitarianism 101". The arguments made werey very basic. I don't think they're terrible arguments. They are probably some of the key reason I'm more likely to say that I have utilitarian sympathies rather than being a full on Utilitarian, but anyone remotely aware of counterarguments to utilitarianism should already have considered them. There is IMO just no way Jasnah is so lacking in self-awareness that she doesn't know she's not a utilitarian machine and that her actions are inhibited by lack of knowledge and tainted by her emotional attachments, but it seem the story want to tell me she is?

 

I suppose it’s possible that her reaction is meant to be more to losing the debate that to the devastating force of the objection, but it did seem to me that she hadn’t considered this before.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Kerberos said:

To me this was a part of the book that did not work, because if Taravangian offered a lesson on utilitarianism that lesson was "objections to utilitarianism 101". The arguments made werey very basic. I don't think they're terrible arguments. They are probably some of the key reason I'm more likely to say that I have utilitarian sympathies rather than being a full on Utilitarian, but anyone remotely aware of counterarguments to utilitarianism should already have considered them. There is IMO just no way Jasnah is so lacking in self-awareness that she doesn't know she's not a utilitarian machine and that her actions are inhibited by lack of knowledge and tainted by her emotional attachments, but it seem the story want to tell me she is?

 

I suppose it’s possible that her reaction is meant to be more to losing the debate that to the devastating force of the objection, but it did seem to me that she hadn’t considered this before.

I took it less as "she hadn't considered the points/counterpoints to the various philosophical arguments before" and more that Jasnah declaimed one thing as being her guiding principle, but then her public words vs secret preparations/actions were dissonant because she like most people are blind to many of their own deficiencies. 

I'll need to re-read the book to really get a feel for her section again, but that was my take. It was more the blow to her psyche about her cognitive dissonance on her words vs actions/preparations

[Dropchicken7]

What a halfway point! The best part of this book was the unexpected pairings/groupings of characters. 
Also, the spren were the true stars. Their comedic timing is unmatched.

Kaladin and Szeth were giving me big Jim/Dwight energy. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Dropchicken7
Repost

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Kerberos said:

To me this was a part of the book that did not work, because if Taravangian offered a lesson on utilitarianism that lesson was "objections to utilitarianism 101". The arguments made werey very basic. I don't think they're terrible arguments.

In my personal experience a subset of the people with the most sophisticated intellectual resources do tend to neglect the basics.

[DSCrankshaw]

I think Taravangian’s argument was less that utilitarianism did not work, and more that Jasnah did not practice it. When it came right down to it, Jasnah took care of her own. Now hypocrisy can be defended against--failing your ideals is more about you failing than the ideals failing--but Jasnah's real problem was her pride, her belief that she had everything figured out and could and would do what was needed.

 

And hypocrisy, while it does not attack the ideals directly, does give other people permission to say,  "Well, if you aren't doing it, why should I?" It could have worked on Fen even if it didn't cause a crisis of faith in Jasnah.

[Kerberos]

2 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I took it less as "she hadn't considered the points/counterpoints to the various philosophical arguments before" and more that Jasnah declaimed one thing as being her guiding principle, but then her public words vs secret preparations/actions were dissonant because she like most people are blind to many of their own deficiencies. 

I'll need to re-read the book to really get a feel for her section again, but that was my take. It was more the blow to her psyche about her cognitive dissonance on her words vs actions/preparations

But this dissonance in itself seem obvious to me. No utilitarian is truly disinterested, not Christian truly loves their neighbour like themselves, no virtue ethicist is perfectly virtuous at all times. Show me a person who lives up to their own ethics 100% and I will show you a person with an extremely low ethical standard. The crisis requires a lack of self awareness I find implausible. The most plausible answer would be that she wasn’t fully aware of how large the disconnect was, but it just doesn’t seem that way to me.

 

I don’t want to be to negative I did really like the book that particular resolution just failed to work for me.