Splintering of Honor

[KnightoftheCosmere]

"Was Honor Splintered? Ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes, Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone knows their stuff." (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/325-google-hangout/#e9810) I know this is an old WoB, but Sanderson typically plans our well in advance. I don't see how this is compatable with the info we learn in Chapter 16 of WaT: "“Some say that Honor was Splintered by Odium when he killed Tanavast—as he did to others before—becoming the spren, as the power of a god left alone will begin to think.” She shook her head. “But they’re wrong. The spren existed before Tanavast’s death. They are of him, but are not the core of his power. It still exists.” She looked him in the eyes. “It is the power and substance of the visions you were shown, starting years ago. It seeks for men to see their heritage, as it searches for a new Vessel to hold it.”" Cultivation could be lying to Dalinar here, but I don't find that likely. Now, we know that Odium has the capability/knowledge to completely splinter Shards, like he does to Devotion and Dominion, why didn't he Splinter Honor?

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

"We killed you"

Whoever cooperated with him betrayed him. Mercy could not do it. Too contrary to the Shard's Intent.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

She shook her head. “But they’re wrong. The spren existed before Tanavast’s death. They are of him, but are not the core of his power. It still exists.” She looked him in the eyes. “It is the power and substance of the visions you were shown, starting years ago. It seeks for men to see their heritage, as it searches for a new Vessel to hold it.”" Cultivation could be lying to Dalinar here, but I don't find that likely. Now, we know that Odium has the capability/knowledge to completely splinter Shards, like he does to Devotion and Dominion, why didn't he Splinter Honor?

 

I think he did. Odium certainly thinks he splintered Honor

Quote

"In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong." Odium - OB Ch. 57

Tanavast/Honor made some contingency plans before his death that are allowing for a new vessel potentially. The plan involved the Stormfather being modified and ordered to find a Bondsmith to show the Visions to Tanavast was setting up a succession plan. Bondsmiths are good at forging bonds which includes putting things back together like Dalinar did with the statue in OB. It's a lot harder to put a shard back together, but I think that's the plan.  Whoever the bonds the Stormfather is "deeply connected to the largest remnant of a god" (Odium - OB Ch.57) which puts them in a good position to repair the shard. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

"We killed you"

Whoever cooperated with him betrayed him. Mercy could not do it. Too contrary to the Shard's Intent.

NowI think Honour did a switachroo with Nohadon, and Nohadon got killed. 

[KnightoftheCosmere]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think he did. Odium certainly thinks he splintered Honor

Tanavast/Honor made some contingency plans before his death that are allowing for a new vessel potentially. The plan involved the Stormfather being modified and ordered to find a Bondsmith to show the Visions to Tanavast was setting up a succession plan. Bondsmiths are good at forging bonds which includes putting things back together like Dalinar did with the statue in OB. It's a lot harder to put a shard back together, but I think that's the plan.  Whoever the bonds the Stormfather is "deeply connected to the largest remnant of a god" (Odium - OB Ch.57) which puts them in a good position to repair the shard. 

That makes sense, and it woud align with this WoB "

Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it." (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5993)

[alder24]

3 hours ago, KnightoftheCosmere said:

"Was Honor Splintered? Ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes, Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone knows their stuff." (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/325-google-hangout/#e9810) I know this is an old WoB, but Sanderson typically plans our well in advance. I don't see how this is compatable with the info we learn in Chapter 16 of WaT: "“Some say that Honor was Splintered by Odium when he killed Tanavast—as he did to others before—becoming the spren, as the power of a god left alone will begin to think.” She shook her head. “But they’re wrong. The spren existed before Tanavast’s death. They are of him, but are not the core of his power. It still exists.” She looked him in the eyes. “It is the power and substance of the visions you were shown, starting years ago. It seeks for men to see their heritage, as it searches for a new Vessel to hold it.”" Cultivation could be lying to Dalinar here, but I don't find that likely. Now, we know that Odium has the capability/knowledge to completely splinter Shards, like he does to Devotion and Dominion, why didn't he Splinter Honor?

What Cultivation said is that Honor wasn't Splintered which created Spren because Spren existed long before Honor's death, but Honor still was Splintered. That's the whole problem with Splintering of Honor as his Splintered power is now missing. It's not in Spren, it's not in the Cognitive Realm like the Dor, it's not in the Physical Realm like the Mists of Preservation - it's hidden somewhere in the Spiritual Realm. But Honor was Splintered by Odium.

A tip for you: you can copy and paste WoBs with their formatting by using the "copy" option in the top right corner of the WoB, then you can paste it on the forum (it's good to use either a quote box or a spoiler box for copied WoB).

[KnightoftheCosmere]

Thanks for the advice, that is really useful.

[Confused]

I love this topic! I might have posted a new thread myself had you, @KnightoftheCosmere, not done so. Here’s my take:

I think Cultivation helps Odium kill Tanavast. It’s possible a stray Shard might have participated, but Brandon says only Honor, Cultivation, and Odium figure narratively in SLA. This is a big narrative event. She helps because Honor has become unyielding. Roshar has stopped growing. The Growth Shard has to "prune" the obstacle to growth.

The Stormfather holds Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, not Tanavast’s. I think this means that the Stormfather holds a large amount of Honor’s Investiture that becomes sapient on its own. Some spren personifies highstorms before the Stormfather, maybe Wind or a less angry storm. IMO, Honor’s Cognitive Shadow transforms that spren into the Stormfather’s current incarnation.  

And while we’re at it, I don’t buy the Tanavast-Nohadon switcheroo. Cultivation and Odium would both know it. If you read the Nohadon epigraphs, they sound suspiciously like Ishar, who counsels abandonment of the Oathpact. Substitute “Oathpact” for “kingdom” and you’ll see what I mean. IMO, Ishar becomes Nohadon, not Tanavast. Dalinar thinks the Nohadon he meets is much different from the man who writes the in-world Way of Kings. Later, IMO, Ishar writes that book. Conveniently, Way of Kings contains the final four oaths of each Radiant order.

Oh, and I agree with @alder24 that Honor's Splinters are either hidden in or perhaps scattered throughout the Spiritual Realm. Dal's task will be to find, collect, and bond it all.

Edited November 21, 2024 by Confused

[Ewery1]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

I love this topic! I might have posted a new thread myself had you, @KnightoftheCosmere, not done so. Here’s my take:

I think Cultivation helps Odium kill Tanavast. It’s possible a stray Shard might have participated, but Brandon says only Honor, Cultivation, and Odium figure narratively in SLA. This is a big narrative event. She helps because Honor has become unyielding. Roshar has stopped growing. The Growth Shard has to "prune" the obstacle to growth.

The Stormfather holds Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, not Tanavast’s. I think this means that the Stormfather holds a large amount of Honor’s Investiture that becomes sapient on its own. Some spren personifies highstorms before the Stormfather, maybe Wind or a less angry storm. IMO, Honor’s Cognitive Shadow transforms that spren into the Stormfather’s current incarnation.  

And while we’re at it, I don’t buy the Tanavast-Nohadon switcheroo. Cultivation and Odium would both know it. If you read the Nohadon epigraphs, they sound suspiciously like Ishar, who counsels abandonment of the Oathpact. Substitute “Oathpact” for “kingdom” and you’ll see what I mean. IMO, Ishar becomes Nohadon, not Tanavast. Dalinar thinks the Nohadon he meets is much different from the man who writes the in-world Way of Kings. Later, IMO, Ishar writes that book. Conveniently, Way of Kings contains the final four oaths of each Radiant order.

Oh, and I agree with @alder24 that Honor's Splinters are either hidden in or perhaps scattered throughout the Spiritual Realm. Dal's task will be to find, collect, and bond it all.

Agree with this - it also occurs to me that Honor & Cultivation actually seem to be diametrically opposed. Honor is all about permanently binding things up and Cultivation is all about letting things change and evolve and become greater than. Too many oaths makes that impossible & stagnant.

[Jescape]

@Confused How would the timing of Ishar being Nohadon work? Because he's king during and after a desolation before the oathpact was abandoned.

[Calten_Gnomercy]

This would flow with my thoughts that Ishar has been in Shinovar for a LONG time altering their path slowly over generations.

 

He’s the voice Szeth hears, he’s responsible for the corruption of the area, and leadership in Shinovar.

 

He’d have the knowledge, connection, and power to end the Oathpact, and could be siphoning some darkness away from the other Heralds to allow them to function slightly.

Maybe he doesn’t help Taln because Taln knows the truth?