Shinovar as enclave/anchor to other worlds

[Fyodor32768]

So, one of the things that has never really been explained as far as I can tell, is why Roshar has embodying unintelligent Spren (lifespren, heatspren, etc) when nowhere else in the cosmere has them. We see intelligent spren (i.e. seons) elsewhere but not phenomenon on roshar where all sorts of generalized concepts have visible spren. 

So Shinovar does not have any of these kinds of spren as Kaladin notes. And it appears to have foliiage/fauna resembling other planets rather than what we see on Roshar. And the people are shorter and have round/caucasian eyes. So I'm wondering if there is something sort of supernaturally distinct about Shinovar, a kind of enclave that's cosmerically different from Roshar.

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

I always wondered if maybe there were two waves of people coming to Roshar. Like, the Shin and then everyone else. And maybe one of the shards (Cultivation probably) altered the land to make it more hospitable to them.

[Moirne she/her]

I wondered if the humans traveling to Shinovar from Ashyn actually brought their own ecology with them - if the grass and trees are not native to Roshar at all. Or maybe even if the mountains which shelter Shinovar from the storms and make this ecology feasible were not there when the humans arrived, and were created specifically to give them a sheltered (and geographically separated) home to exist. 

[logicless.bt]

5 minutes ago, Moirne said:

I wondered if the humans traveling to Shinovar from Ashyn actually brought their own ecology with them - if the grass and trees are not native to Roshar at all. Or maybe even if the mountains which shelter Shinovar from the storms and make this ecology feasible were not there when the humans arrived, and were created specifically to give them a sheltered (and geographically separated) home to exist. 

I believe that 100%, especially since chickens and horses are clearly offworld creatures. I assumed that the Shin were the original Ashynites and Shinovar was their designated refuge, hence why they're banned from walking on stone. Humans weren't supposed to leave but did.

Obviously this means that the Shin should be more ethnically diverse than they've been presented, bc there are black and Asian Heralds in addition to white ones.

[Fyodor32768]

That is a good thought on the stone-hadn't made the connection.

 

[elihaun]

12 hours ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

I always wondered if maybe there were two waves of people coming to Roshar. Like, the Shin and then everyone else. And maybe one of the shards (Cultivation probably) altered the land to make it more hospitable to them.

i think this too.  First wave went to shinivar, and second+ waves went to the horneater peaks.  

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

So, one of the things that has never really been explained as far as I can tell, is why Roshar has embodying unintelligent Spren (lifespren, heatspren, etc) when nowhere else in the cosmere has them. We see intelligent spren (i.e. seons) elsewhere but not phenomenon on roshar where all sorts of generalized concepts have visible spren. 

The entire system was created directly by Adonalsium, spren included. They are an important part of Rosharan ecology - without spren life as it is on Roshar can't exist. That's why there are so many spren on Roshar. Once investiture gains sapience, it tends to be shaped by thoughts of those around it and that's how they became the embodiment of emotions and nature. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and also you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved, so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You--

Questioner

Can we correctly assume?

Brandon Sanderson

--yeah, *laughter* I'll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar, resulting in a lot of what we have there.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

14 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

So Shinovar does not have any of these kinds of spren as Kaladin notes. And it appears to have foliiage/fauna resembling other planets rather than what we see on Roshar. And the people are shorter and have round/caucasian eyes. So I'm wondering if there is something sort of supernaturally distinct about Shinovar, a kind of enclave that's cosmerically different from Roshar.

I would say it's the opposite - Roshar is "supernatural" compared to other places. Spren aren't needed for Earth-like life at all, they aren't a part of the ecosystem thus there are so few of them in Shonovar. Shinovar is a reflection of a typical, low-invested world (Ashyn), while the rest of Roshar was created and developed as a highly invested planet. This makes it different.

As for the people, they all came from Ashyn. Every ethnicity you see today on Roshar (except for Natans, Iriali, Horneaters and Herdazians) existed on Ashyn and migrated to Roshar when Ashyn was destroyed. We know this because Heralds themselves are ethnically divided and they all were born on Ashyn and lived through the migration - Ishar looks like Shin, Nale looks like Makabaki, Jezrien looks like Alethi etc. All those ethnicities were present on Ashyn before they came to Roshar.

 

14 hours ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

I always wondered if maybe there were two waves of people coming to Roshar. Like, the Shin and then everyone else. And maybe one of the shards (Cultivation probably) altered the land to make it more hospitable to them.

There was only one big migration from Ashyn, Elsecalling powered by a Bondsmith (not of the Rosharan type), but there was another, second migration - Iriali. They didn't come from Ashyn, they came from somewhere else. They have golden skin and hair and live in the nation of Iri today.

Spoiler

Questioner

Could you use AonDor to manipulate Connection? If so, would a real AonDor smarty be able to do something similar to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer to your question is: yes. Let me give some explanation.

Even when you are seeings some things happening in Elantris itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done.

In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff.

Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program. But you may need an injection of Investiture in certain ways.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Argent

How many waves of human populations have migrated to Roshar? So I'm thinking the Ashynites coming from Ashyn, right? Was that just the only humans that ever came as a population?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you count the Iriali?

Argent

That's specifically the one I'm thinking of.

Brandon Sanderson

They came in a separate migration.

Argent

Not from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson

Not from Ashyn.

Argent

From whatever the Third Land was.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

14 hours ago, Moirne said:

I wondered if the humans traveling to Shinovar from Ashyn actually brought their own ecology with them - if the grass and trees are not native to Roshar at all.

Yes, they aren't native to Roshar. Shinovar was given to humans so the plants and animals they brought with them could grow there. It's possible Shards were involved as well in making Shinovar Ashyn-like. OB ch 1113:

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That is the land you were given, the Stormfather said. A place where the plants and animals you brought here could grow.

RoW ch 76:

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“I wasn’t there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns—but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind.
“She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns. The result of humans Surgebinding without oaths, without checks. Of course, that was before any of us understood the Surges. Before the spren left us for you, before the war started.”

[Isilel]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Every ethnicity you see today on Roshar (except for Natans, Iriali, Horneaters and Herdazians) existed on Ashyn

 

I wonder about the Thaylens, though. They look pretty different from everyone else and no Herald shares their appearance.

And, of course Dysian Aimians are also immigrants from the larger cosmere, while the origins of the Siah are an open question.

[The Sovereign]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

As for the people, they all came from Ashyn. Every ethnicity you see today on Roshar (except for Natans, Iriali, Horneaters and Herdazians) existed on Ashyn and migrated to Roshar when Ashyn was destroyed. We know this because Heralds themselves are ethnically divided and they all were born on Ashyn and lived through the migration - Ishar looks like Shin, Nale looks like Makabaki, Jezrien looks like Alethi etc. All those ethnicities were present on Ashyn before they came to Roshar.

To add to this, The Natans, Horneaters, and Herdazians are also descended from Ashen born humans; Interbred with Singers in the cases of Horneaters and Herdazians and interbred with Siah Aimians in the case of the Natans. The Iriali migrated from another planet on their Long Trail.

@Isilel I suspect that the Thaylens are also an interbreeding with Siah Aimians but this is purely speculation.
Edit: Brandon RAFO'd this back in 2015:

Quote

HorseCannon

I didn't realize Horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

ccstat

Are there Aimian-Human hybrids as well? (Either type of Aimian) If so, are the Thaylen people one of these?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

Footnote: Blightsong's parenthetical statement is mistaken; there is no source claiming that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering.
General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 16, 2015)

 

Edited November 7, 2024 by The Sovereign