"Our Shame"

[Ashbringer he/him]

So, Chapter 22 mostly puts aside the Stormfaker theory. Something's still strange there, and I think there's a few explanations to why, but it ties into what the Stormfather has been trying to hide from Dalinar. "Our Shame". I wanted to throw out a few theories on what that is. I feel like the most likely option is something we likely couldn't anticipate, but I want to try anyway.

Most of these involve both Tanavast and the Stormfather, if they are not now one and the same, because the Stormfather does specifically say "our", along with seemingly getting confused on whether he's Honor or the Stormfather. We know they're somewhat intermixed, but to what degree we have yet to find out. 

 

Shame One: The Binding of Odium and Dishonor.

One thing bugs me in RoW, when Dalinar and Rayse are creating terms. Rayse specifically says that "I am no spren of Honor" that would manipulate the letter and loopholes in an agreement, and that he would instead uphold the spirit. Obviously this is both meant as a slight dig at Honor and now clearly means little to Taravangian, but it is an interesting thing to add, especially since Odium shouldn't be able to outright lie to Dalinar. 

So the first Shame goes all the way back - to when Odium first came to Roshar. We know from one WoB that it's implied he got permission to be there. What we don't know is how. This shame is pretty simple - Honor tricked Odium. Perhaps the contract read something like "Odium is allowed to join Cultivation and Honor on Roshar, as long as he always only watches the people of Roshar and never interferes with their lives" and so on - and then some word like 'always' is serving to trap Odium on Roshar indefinitely.

Why's this a shame? Admittedly it's one of the tamer options, as Dalinar probably mostly agrees with Odium's binding. But it's a shame of Honor because it would be dishonorable. Creating and twisting an Oath in order to get Odium in a position he doesn't want to be isn't exactly an honorable act, although Honor's definitions of honor may be different. It also proves to the characters something we already mostly knew - it was Honor's fault that Odium came to and stayed on Roshar.

 

Shame Two: The Recreance and the Power Handoff

We're learning a lot about the Recreance in this book, hopefully. We know Honor died soon after this. But we don't know how, as Wit points out. We also know that as Honor was dying, he gave many of his responsibilities to the Stormfather.

Perhaps the Recreance wasn't solely caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram's binding. Perhaps something was lost when Honor transferred capabilities to the Stormfather, some piece that would have allowed the spren to keep their minds. Or perhaps it was more Honor convincing the Recreance Radiants to abandon their oaths - we don't know how that entire process played out, but perhaps the Stormfather's shame is his own hand in it.

 

Shame Three: The Hearts of Men...

This is the big one. The Stormfaker theory is derived from the Stormfather acting very strange to Gavilar. While it seems as if it's not a replacement of the Stormfather, we see the Stormfather acting similarly strange here to Dalinar, calling his own plans those of Honor's. Something's still up.

The Stormfather is also very opposed to Dalinar ascending. There's a few good reasons for this - Dalinar becoming Honor and then having his soul fall to Odium would be very very bad, and the Stormfather's seemingly made the same mistake with Gavilar before. But we also learned that the Stormfather (or faker) can lie.

What if the Shame is that Honor's still alive?

And that he's just been hiding, terrified, this whole time?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Binding Odium to Roshar is by itself dishonorable, as it inflicts the Desolations on the peoples of Roshar who are butchered for somebody else's benefit.

Also you left out a fourth option:
How did Honor and Cultivation become the gods of men? It is possible that foul play was involved.

[alder24]

Yes, I think along the same lines. Binding Odium to Roshar seems like it could have been the shame Stormfather referred to, but I expect something even greater. Something so grand that it would make people think if they chose the right side. What if the whole idea of the Desolation cycles was Honor's plan all alone? He didn't want to just trap Odium, he wanted to keep him busy to prevent him from even planning his escape. Give him a false hope that if he pushes humanity for long enough, he will win and get free. Maybe even Honor set up his death and hid away the core of his Shard specifically to give Odium another false hope? Honor sacrificed humanity and Roshar in order to prevent Odium from killing other Shards. This also could explain why Sigzil thought in TSM that the idea of an honorable soldier is the most evil thing in existence, a trick to make people fight for nothing. The switch of gods sounds like a good candidate too. Why did Honor and Cultivation turn away from Singers and support humans instead? It may play a role in keeping Odium busy on Roshar. TSM ch 40:

Quote

He clasped his hands behind his back, remembering what it felt like to wear that uniform, bear that armor, carry those oaths. “I had to ask myself, once it was all done, if honor was a sham. If it was a ruse used to make men kill one another—to let them pretend there was a purpose to it. If that concept—the very idea of an honorable soldier—was not the most pernicious evil that had ever blighted the cosmere.”

 

[The Stick]

I think one reason SF is so fearful of it all is that Dalinar Ascending would likely kill him and absorb SF back into Honor. It is in SF's best interest not  to have Dalinar Ascend.

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I think along the same lines. Binding Odium to Roshar seems like it could have been the shame Stormfather referred to, but I expect something even greater. Something so grand that it would make people think if they chose the right side. What if the whole idea of the Desolation cycles was Honor's plan all alone? He didn't want to just trap Odium, he wanted to keep him busy to prevent him from even planning his escape. Give him a false hope that if he pushes humanity for long enough, he will win and get free. Maybe even Honor set up his death and hid away the core of his Shard specifically to give Odium another false hope? Honor sacrificed humanity and Roshar in order to prevent Odium from killing other Shards. This also could explain why Sigzil thought in TSM that the idea of an honorable soldier is the most evil thing in existence, a trick to make people fight for nothing. The switch of gods sounds like a good candidate too. Why did Honor and Cultivation turn away from Singers and support humans instead? It may play a role in keeping Odium busy on Roshar. TSM ch 40:

Yeah, that's one reason why I think Odium's binding is too tame of a shame. It wouldn't cause Dalinar to reconsider his path.

The Desolations were a glitch in humans breaking Oaths - I don't think the Oathpact itself is involved in this, unless Honor somehow tricked the Heralds into making it. But they all seemed fairly willing to endure that burden.

 

A few other things I thought of: this shame might be the reason Honor suddenly seemed to switch sides from the singers to the humans (and Odium vice versa). That's been largely ignored by most characters, or waved off as being due to forms of power / Fused being able to bind to singers' gemhearts. There's likely more to that story.

[Moirne she/her]

Your last option is interesting, and I do see merit to the idea of Honor being alive - but if Tanavast is in hiding, why would he be sending these visions to various people encouraging them to investigate further and “unite them”?

[Ashbringer he/him]

55 minutes ago, Moirne said:

Your last option is interesting, and I do see merit to the idea of Honor being alive - but if Tanavast is in hiding, why would he be sending these visions to various people encouraging them to investigate further and “unite them”?

I'd say presumably as a way to help while still being something he created before "dying" - or something that he feasibly could have created before "dying" - so it doesn't give awareness as to him being alive.

If Honor somehow is alive, he's hiding it from both Odium and Cultivation. Those would be very difficult to trick.

[Confused]

Maybe Honor and not Cultivation is the Shard that hides, as the OP theorizes. Over time Brandon creates uncertainty about Tanavast's death. Here are the relevant WoBs, earliest to last.

Quote

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Quote

Questioner

Is Tanavast dead?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Quote

CaptainObvious0927

The really question is, given the death of Rayse, is Honor really dead? Or is his essence out there, still available to be claimed?

Brandon Sanderson

I will answer this for certain by the end of Book Five. For now, RAFO.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

Is Tanavast the character Brandon changes?

Edited October 15, 2024 by Confused

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, The Stick said:

I think one reason SF is so fearful of it all is that Dalinar Ascending would likely kill him and absorb SF back into Honor. It is in SF's best interest not  to have Dalinar Ascend.

Stormfather was around before Honor's death, though.

[Ashbringer he/him]

20 minutes ago, Confused said:

Maybe Honor and not Cultivation is the Shard that hides, as the OP theorizes. Over time Brandon creates uncertainty about Tanavast's death. Here are the relevant WoBs, earliest to last.

 

15 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Stormfather was around before Honor's death, though.

First, thanks for visiting a theory of mine 

One thing of note in some of the Stormfather WoBs (such as this one) is that the Stormfather is always called Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, not Tanavast’s. Some of these newer WoBs really focus on the distinction between the two.

Tanavast is probably dead-dead, although WoBs have become false before. But him specifically abandoning humanity by abandoning his post would probably be enough Shame, especially if the Stormfather also tried to take over Honor and failed. We also really don’t know what effect being a Sliver would have, especially one alive - we just know Kelsier immortalized himself with a lot less, and Vin or Rashek could have stuck around if she’d wanted to.

I don’t think there’s anyone around who could be Tanavast, at least no odd immortals that aren’t Hoid or a Herald. There have been theories about Lirin, but personally I doubt that he’s involved. Making Kaladin be literally the Son of Tanavast would be… strange.

 

The Stormfather may also be worried that, if someone ascends to Honor, then the parts of him that are Honor will be reclaimed and leave him just as the Storm. Not a full absorption, but a partial one.

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

The last shame still gives hope to my pet theory that Lirin is the descended Tanavast in hinding

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

The Desolations were a glitch in humans breaking Oaths - I don't think the Oathpact itself is involved in this, unless Honor somehow tricked the Heralds into making it. But they all seemed fairly willing to endure that burden.

• Honor gave the Heralds superhuman bodies.
• Honor gave the Heralds superweapons.
• Those superweapons are conviniently tied to the Heralds so that they cannot be lost in Desolations.

Honor foresaw the cycle of Desolations. He intentionally sacrificed generations of Rosharans, human and parsh to tie Odium down. Maybe he even forsook the Dawnsingers for that outcome. Possibly he even took away their bonds to the old gods to rob them of Regals.

[Ashbringer he/him]

48 minutes ago, MarcieIsForager said:

The last shame still gives hope to my pet theory that Lirin is the descended Tanavast in hinding

I am thinking that it's more possible, now. I don't know who else a hiding Tanavast could be, unless he supplanted a Herald somehow. My issues with it are more narrative: Lirin nearly died multiple times in RoW, which would seem like some level of chance for Tanavast to survive so long. Also part of Kaladin's character is that he wasn't born special - he just kinda became what he needed to be.

23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Honor gave the Heralds superhuman bodies.
• Honor gave the Heralds superweapons.
• Those superweapons are conviniently tied to the Heralds so that they cannot be lost in Desolations.

Honor foresaw the cycle of Desolations. He intentionally sacrificed generations of Rosharans, human and parsh to tie Odium down. Maybe he even forsook the Dawnsingers for that outcome. Possibly he even took away their bonds to the old gods to rob them of Regals.

The Honorblades are a seperate thing from the Oathpact, as evidenced by the Oathpact not actually breaking when the Heralds abandoned them at Aharietiam. As for the superhuman bodies, the original plan was for them to possibly endure on Braize for hundreds or thousands of years.

Honor still could have forseen it, but I feel like again narratively it wouldn't be such a big Shame for Honor and the Stormfather.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

The Honorblades are a seperate thing from the Oathpact, as evidenced by the Oathpact not actually breaking when the Heralds abandoned them at Aharietiam. As for the superhuman bodies, the original plan was for them to possibly endure on Braize for hundreds or thousands of years.

The reason for Honor to create the Heralds was the oathpact. Hence he chose the Desolations.

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The reason for Honor to create the Heralds was the oathpact. Hence he chose the Desolations.

The original Oathpact was that the Fused would be bound to Roshar by the Heralds forever, who would have to endure torture on Braize to keep them there. The Heralds made an Oath to keep them there. What caused a Desolation was a Herald cracking and breaking their word, allowing the Fused back to Roshar, because humans can break their word unlike spren.

It was intended to be permanent, as far as we know, with no Desolations. Maybe Honor knew the Heralds couldn’t actually handle it for very long. Maybe he didn’t. He’s not one of the best future sight Shards. 

But remember, Taln did hold back the Fused without cracking and making a Desolation for over four thousand years.

[Cocoa he/him]

On 10/14/2024 at 1:32 PM, The Stick said:

I think one reason SF is so fearful of it all is that Dalinar Ascending would likely kill him and absorb SF back into Honor. It is in SF's best interest not  to have Dalinar Ascend.

While there's likely more to it, this is along the lines of what I'm thinking. SF conflating his plan with Honor's (and talking like he himself is the reason the Heralds are broken), Wit's reminder about what happens if you leave a chunk of investiture alone for long enough, the Sibling's comments about how the SF has changed, Jasnah's thought about something being wonky with the timeline, it all feels like it's meant to fit together. The Stormfather we see is likely not the same entity as the one the Ancient Radiants called by that name; if not literally a whole new spren, then at least in the Ship of Theseus sense. If the modern Stormfather isn't just merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow, but is literally the core of Honor's power come alive all on its own, that goes a long, long way to explaining why he's so upset at the idea of Dalinar taking up that power to ascend.