What is happening with Mayalaran and Adolin

[Njvodin]

I'm going to preface this by saying that, like some theories, this is by no means centered in logical thought, or any concrete evidence. But I'd like to think my theory could be correct. Seems cool enough to me, anyways. If you have any suggestions, please let me know as I'd like to try to make this theory either more solid, or disprove it.

So. What do we think is happening to Maya and Adolin? Well, mostly all we know is that something very strange is happening, that possibly has never happened in any current spren's lifetime.

Some spren can sense a bond between Maya and Adolin, such as Blended, who says

(Chapter 94, ROW)

Quote

"Though a bond between you is."

"...something is happening."

This bond could just be Blended sensing that there is the usual dead Shardblade and Shardbearer bond, however I don't think this to be the case, as surely she would be able to tell if that was the case. Though to be fair, this could be the first time that she has seen a Shardblade bonded human in the Cognitive Realm.

Regardless, more is poking out to me which I want to consider. In the same chapter, just a little before Blended speaks to Adolin, Mayalaran says

(Chapter 94, ROW)

Quote

"Stren..." she whispered. "Stren. Be..."

"Strength before weakness" [Adolin]

She nodded again

I don't want to grasp at straws, but I also don't want to give this an oversight. Mayalaran said the words. The first Oath of the Knights Radiant, which kickstarts the Nahel bond between spren and humans.

Another quote:

Quote

Take it, Adolin thought to her. Take some of my strength.

She looked right at him, and despite her scratched-out eyes, she saw him. Adolin felt something, a warmth deep within him.

Directly after that, Mayalaran gained what I'd call consciousness, and starts being able to speak. Never in living memory, as far as we know, has this been possible. This mended Mayalaran. In a small way, at least.

I want to point out that I don't believe it's a coincidence that Maya swears part of the First Ideal (strength before weakness) after taking Adolin's strength.

Additionally, we know that Radiants start showing signs of being bonded, and being able to use abilities before saying the first Ideal, as evidenced by Kaladin, Eshonai, Eshonai's mother (not sure about these last two, but I'm going off what I've heard, and I don't exactly remember), and squires, but squires aren't exactly the same either.

So where am I going with this?

I think that what Maya and Adolin have done is create a reverse Knight Radiant, of sorts. This bond aims to take from the human, and give to the spren, to heal the spren. 

We can reason that while the regular Nahel bond is "symbiotic", it's not exactly true. The spren get to be "cognisant" in the Physical Realm, but why not stay in the Cognitive Realm for that? The human gets the most benefit from the bond, by being able to mentally heal themselves (from what we've seen) via the Ideals they swear.

Ideals themselves are a way for a human (or singer) to better themselves and heal from past trauma, along with the side-effects of being able to Surgebind and stuff.

This reverse bond is a way for spren to heal themselves after being broken (by the way, a LARGE, very prominent metaphor in the world of Stormlight Archive), and to better themselves (? maybe?).

TL:DR,

Adolin and Maya are a reverse Knight Radiant, and maybe some cool stuff is gonna happen with that.

A Maya POV would DEFINITELY be interesting, but doubtful to happen.

So, thoughts? Criticism? Let me know.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Njvodin said:

So where am I going with this?

I think that what Maya and Adolin have done is create a reverse Knight Radiant, of sorts. This bond aims to take from the human, and give to the spren, to heal the spren. 

Well Reasoned, others have considered the same:

• Adolin Edgedancer (with links to other threads)
• Maya and Adolin's Bond
• Why Maya is healing
• Deadeye Spren

I would not go so far as to say it is the prevailing fan theory, but it is a popular one. I, personally, agree that a "Reverse" bond is forming, but I doubt the final result will make Adolin an Edgedancer - I think there will be some other effect(s). 

Edited October 10, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Njvodin]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well Reasoned, others have considered the same:

• Adolin Edgedancer (with links to other threads)
• Maya and Adolin's Bond
• Why Maya is healing
• Deadeye Spren

I would not go so far as to say it is the prevailing fan theory, but it is a popular one. I, personally, agree that a "Reverse" is forming, but I doubt the final result will make Adolin an Edgedancer - I think there will be some other effect(s). 

Ah thanks for sharing these

I was just reading RoW before my uni class started, so I didn't have time to check if anyone else has had the same thoughts as me

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well Reasoned, others have considered the same:

• Adolin Edgedancer (with links to other threads)
• Maya and Adolin's Bond
• Why Maya is healing
• Deadeye Spren

I would not go so far as to say it is the prevailing fan theory, but it is a popular one. I, personally, agree that a "Reverse" is forming, but I doubt the final result will make Adolin an Edgedancer - I think there will be some other effect(s). 

I dont think I saw this part of the theory in any of those, but the spin Ive been peddling is this: 

Since it was an intentional thing done by the spren, and supposedly in response to the fear that Humans would use surges to destroy the world, I think this Reverse Bond is intended to put control of the Surges in the hands of the Spren of the pair, with the Human's role to Metabolize Lifelight to fuel those surges.  I think that's what the Warmth that Adolin felt was, and immediately after that Maya very dramatically "Inhaled" before gaining the strength to speak.  In other words I think this is the emergent 3rd flavor of Surgebinding along with the traditional Radiants and new enlightened Voidbinders like Renarin.  

[Njvodin]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I dont think I saw this part of the theory in any of those, but the spin Ive been peddling is this: 

Since it was an intentional thing done by the spren, and supposedly in response to the fear that Humans would use surges to destroy the world, I think this Reverse Bond is intended to put control of the Surges in the hands of the Spren of the pair, with the Human's role to Metabolize Lifelight to fuel those surges.  I think that's what the Warmth that Adolin felt was, and immediately after that Maya very dramatically "Inhaled" before gaining the strength to speak.  In other words I think this is the emergent 3rd flavor of Surgebinding along with the traditional Radiants and new enlightened Voidbinders like Renarin.  

Oh that's so true, I didn't even make the connection that Maya inhaled, like a Radiant would for Light. Good pickup!

I wonder if the warmth and metabolisation is similar to how a Misting/Mistborn burns metals, but that's getting a bit sidetracked.

Again, good pickup! 

[Quantus he/him]

10 minutes ago, Njvodin said:

Oh that's so true, I didn't even make the connection that Maya inhaled, like a Radiant would for Light. Good pickup!

I wonder if the warmth and metabolisation is similar to how a Misting/Mistborn burns metals, but that's getting a bit sidetracked.

Again, good pickup! 

Im assuming the "Metabolize Lifelight" bit is more or less what Lift does.  The Warmth itself could be innate to LifeLight (each Light has it's own associated Sensation) or it could be the same Warmth that Dalinar seems to sense every time he gets close to the Spiritual Realm.  

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Njvodin said:

So, thoughts? Criticism? Let me know.

Wholeheartedly agree. You’ve augmented it very nicely and that; First Ideal was brought up for the first time as far as I recall. 

In a normal Nahel Bond, it’s a spren that fills the cracks in the soul of their knight, here it’s Adolin’s soul that seals Maya’s broken soul - the roles seem to be swapped, the bond is in reverse.

[Mattel]

This is the best argument I have heard and I love it!

But a reverse bond does present some weird questions.

1.) In a normal Nahel Bond, the Spren don't really receive much besides being able to be in the Physical Realm, and they get to help people. That's like all they get as far as I'm aware (plez tell me if I'm wrong). So normally, the Spren have what it takes to heal the humans, because they are practically perfect already. Yes, they will develop more personality and such, but the Spren don't need to be healed in the PR. This leads me to the weird question. Both Maya, and Adolin need healing. While Adolin is like one of the best people in SLA, he still has hurts. So how can one help heal the other? It's like a sick person trying to tend to a sick person who has a different ailment. You're just gonna pass along the sickness, right? 

2.) In the Sunlit Man, we are told that it is possible to gain Storm light through a Spren burning away themselves. Spren actually have something to give, seeing as they are bits of divinity that are themselves raw Investiture. Humans don't have that! Yes, Honor lives on in the hearts of men we are told, so maybe that means that Rosharans have Investiture inside them?? Like, what does Adolin have, that could heal Mayalaran? Is it simply his amazing soul? 

3.) How has this never happened before? Like every Spren in Lasting Integrity was shocked at what was happening; no one knew. So logically that suggests that this has never happened before. But nobody has ever tried to get a Spren to bond with a human first? 

4.) I'm like 90% sure that Syl has said the Ideals herself, while in conversations with Kaladin. I think other spren have as well. So does something keep those already bonded spren from developing a reverse bond? 

5.) Why on earth can we have a reverse bond in the first place?! (I guess we aren't on earth though lol) This would mean that a normal Nahel Bond that gives humans the better half, suggests that there IS a better half. Why is it not something that goes both ways? Maya and Adolin both want to help each other, so why is she the one that gets the "benefits?" ...mmmm perhaps because she is the one who is more hurt than he is. Maybe that's what makes it a one way road. All of the Spren that give powers to humans, are normal Spren without issues, whereas the humans are the ones that are cracked and broken. Adolin isn't really those last two, but Maya is. So maybe we will eventually see a situation of both Spren and Rosharan needing healing and giving to each other?

 

Anyone have a miraculous answer to these questions? Again I think that this is the best argument, and that if it is, Sanderson will tie it all off with an elegant bow like he always does, but these are legitimate speculations, I think.

[Njvodin]

2 hours ago, Mattel said:

This is the best argument I have heard and I love it!

But a reverse bond does present some weird questions.

Anyone have a miraculous answer to these questions? Again I think that this is the best argument, and that if it is, Sanderson will tie it all off with an elegant bow like he always does, but these are legitimate speculations, I think.

1. In a Nahel bond with a True Spren, the spren is allowed into the Physical Realm while remaining cognisant, as otherwise they would lose their cognitive ability, and in the case of Syl, become something akin to a windspren. 
With your question about spren being the ones that heal the Radiants, well, I think it's fair to say that Sylphrena herself isn't perfect, she still has hurts herself too. But, she is still helping Kaladin, so maybe the spren doesn't need to be perfect. In fact, it's probably similar to the group that Kaladin made in RoW, the talk therapy group (which unfortunately got suspended because of the invasion), with all the mentally ill people helping each other.

2. All people have innate Investiture, in their souls, or their Spiritweb. Still, I think this is the least of "healing" parts. I think that the therapy itself is more of a healing factor, while with Radiants, the Investiture is just to augment the healing itself.

3. No one has tried before (as far as we know) because prior to Aharietiam there were no such thing as deadeyes. Deadeyes are "new", in the sense that they didn't really exist before BAM was imprisoned. Spren thought that the deadeyes are well and truly dead, but as we've seen with Testament in the pre-release chapters, and Maya overall, it may not be the case.

4. Maybe there already is some kind of reverse bond going on with Syl, as she is still in need of her own therapy. I'd say that it's less likely to be true with Syl, though, as she already has a Nahel bond going on, and might not have "room" in the metaphorical spiritual sense, to host another Nahel bond, especially with the same individual. Dunno, but we'll see.

5. I don't really know how to answer this one without saying "Because Brandon wants to", but it does make sense, there's a Push for every Pull, why could you not initiate the bond from the other side? Why does it have to be a human?

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Mattel said:

This is the best argument I have heard and I love it!

But a reverse bond does present some weird questions.

1.) In a normal Nahel Bond, the Spren don't really receive much besides being able to be in the Physical Realm, and they get to help people. That's like all they get as far as I'm aware (plez tell me if I'm wrong). So normally, the Spren have what it takes to heal the humans, because they are practically perfect already. Yes, they will develop more personality and such, but the Spren don't need to be healed in the PR. This leads me to the weird question. Both Maya, and Adolin need healing. While Adolin is like one of the best people in SLA, he still has hurts. So how can one help heal the other? It's like a sick person trying to tend to a sick person who has a different ailment. You're just gonna pass along the sickness, right? 

2.) In the Sunlit Man, we are told that it is possible to gain Storm light through a Spren burning away themselves. Spren actually have something to give, seeing as they are bits of divinity that are themselves raw Investiture. Humans don't have that! Yes, Honor lives on in the hearts of men we are told, so maybe that means that Rosharans have Investiture inside them?? Like, what does Adolin have, that could heal Mayalaran? Is it simply his amazing soul? 

3.) How has this never happened before? Like every Spren in Lasting Integrity was shocked at what was happening; no one knew. So logically that suggests that this has never happened before. But nobody has ever tried to get a Spren to bond with a human first? 

4.) I'm like 90% sure that Syl has said the Ideals herself, while in conversations with Kaladin. I think other spren have as well. So does something keep those already bonded spren from developing a reverse bond? 

5.) Why on earth can we have a reverse bond in the first place?! (I guess we aren't on earth though lol) This would mean that a normal Nahel Bond that gives humans the better half, suggests that there IS a better half. Why is it not something that goes both ways? Maya and Adolin both want to help each other, so why is she the one that gets the "benefits?" ...mmmm perhaps because she is the one who is more hurt than he is. Maybe that's what makes it a one way road. All of the Spren that give powers to humans, are normal Spren without issues, whereas the humans are the ones that are cracked and broken. Adolin isn't really those last two, but Maya is. So maybe we will eventually see a situation of both Spren and Rosharan needing healing and giving to each other?

 

Anyone have a miraculous answer to these questions? Again I think that this is the best argument, and that if it is, Sanderson will tie it all off with an elegant bow like he always does, but these are legitimate speculations, I think.

"Reverse Bond" is a fan term. It does not really exist. Adolin/Maya is a Nahel Bond, but not necessarily a Radiant Bond (which is just a version of the Nahel Bond with a Sapient Spren - though it may be, we just do not know yet). WoB:

Spoiler

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

1. Sure they do, the gain the ability to grow, change, learn. It's not just being able to inhabit and experience the Physical Realm. Just look at Stormfather progressing from "I am endless and always the Storm" to being able to understand "Why" the Heralds made their choice and allow Dalinar to direct the Storm.
2. Spren do not become the Light used by Radiants (excepting Aux's non-standard case, which we do not have enough information about - Aux was already touched and changed by the Dawnshard too) - the Oaths form Connection and allow access to Light. Adolin is also forming Connection to Maya, and that Connection seems to be giving her access to something. Maybe it was Adolin sharing parts of his Spiritweb, Maybe it was Adolin's Intent  allowing and helping Maya to access her own (where it would notmally be blocked). We just do not yet have enough information.
3. All discoveries seem obvious in Hindsight. As @Njvodin said, Deadeyes did not exist before teh Recreance and BAM's imprisonment. DO we know this hasn;t happened before? No. 4500 years is a long time - so we only know there are no known records of somebody else personifying their Shardblade, speaking to it, forming Connection. We do know that Adolin/Maya's demonstration was the first recorded such in Shadesmar, and that's why it took them all by surprise. It directly oppossed thousands of years of supposition and assumption.
4. Syl has a Nahel bond. See above.
5. See above. Nahel Bond is a Nahel Bond. Different bonds grant different things - Forms for the Singers, Sapience for the Ryshadium, Flight for Skyeels, Size for Greatshells, etc. Adolin and Maya are exploring a potentionally new Nahel Bond, but still rooted in the basis of that Bond (Spren to Physical Realm Being).

Hope that helps

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Mattel said:

1.) In a normal Nahel Bond, the Spren don't really receive much besides being able to be in the Physical Realm, and they get to help people. That's like all they get as far as I'm aware (plez tell me if I'm wrong). So normally, the Spren have what it takes to heal the humans, because they are practically perfect already. Yes, they will develop more personality and such, but the Spren don't need to be healed in the PR. This leads me to the weird question. Both Maya, and Adolin need healing. While Adolin is like one of the best people in SLA, he still has hurts. So how can one help heal the other? It's like a sick person trying to tend to a sick person who has a different ailment. You're just gonna pass along the sickness, right? 

Spren do get more than that, the bond increases their mental capacity even beyond that what they had in CR. I don't think the sickness analogy is correct. The bond braces their soul and it works both ways. Adolin isn't really that hurt compared to Shallan or Kaladin (who both have seriously cracked souls), so he doesn't need "healing" as much as others, but his bond with Maya will invest him, it will brace his soul and it will bring them closer together. WoR Synopsis:

Quote

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

In the case of the Radiant bond, a human soul is strengthened by a True Spren's soul, who's a literal manifestation of powers of creation. Adolin isn't anything close to it, but he's a human, he has his soul, he has the ability to fill cracks in Maya's soul and give her strength she now needs. That's why it's a reversal.

 

12 hours ago, Mattel said:

2.) In the Sunlit Man,

Spoiler

we are told that it is possible to gain Storm light through a Spren burning away themselves. Spren actually have something to give, seeing as they are bits of divinity that are themselves raw Investiture. Humans don't have that! Yes, Honor lives on in the hearts of men we are told, so maybe that means that Rosharans have Investiture inside them?? Like, what does Adolin have, that could heal Mayalaran? Is it simply his amazing soul? 

 

TSM spoilers are not allowed in the SA forum. Please edit your post and put it in a spoiler box.

Spoiler

This was only possible because Sigzil was a former Dawnshard and it allowed him to feed on any source of investiture. 

And yes, everyone has investiture in their soul, Rosharans have innate Investiture in their spirit web, and their spirit web itself is made partially out of investiture and Connections. 

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. [Mistborn Spoilers out] And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

12 hours ago, Mattel said:

3.) How has this never happened before? Like every Spren in Lasting Integrity was shocked at what was happening; no one knew. So logically that suggests that this has never happened before. But nobody has ever tried to get a Spren to bond with a human first? 

Because nobody tried this before. Deadeyes didn't exist before Recreance, they didn't exist when people were bonding with spren. Nobody could have even tried this. Moreover, everyone treats Deadeyes as dead and incapable of thinking - Adolin is different. He treats Maya as a person. 

Their bond is also different. It's not a traditional Nahel Bond, it's not a Radiant bond, it's a different kind of bond alltogehter.

12 hours ago, Mattel said:

4.) I'm like 90% sure that Syl has said the Ideals herself, while in conversations with Kaladin. I think other spren have as well. So does something keep those already bonded spren from developing a reverse bond? 

Their circumstances are vastly different. Syl isn't a Deadeye, Syl doesn't have a cracked soul and they already have a Nahel Bond. They are probably restricted by the framework placed by Ishar that created Radiant Orders. 

12 hours ago, Mattel said:

5.) Why on earth can we have a reverse bond in the first place?! (I guess we aren't on earth though lol) This would mean that a normal Nahel Bond that gives humans the better half, suggests that there IS a better half. Why is it not something that goes both ways? Maya and Adolin both want to help each other, so why is she the one that gets the "benefits?" ...mmmm perhaps because she is the one who is more hurt than he is. Maybe that's what makes it a one way road. All of the Spren that give powers to humans, are normal Spren without issues, whereas the humans are the ones that are cracked and broken. Adolin isn't really those last two, but Maya is. So maybe we will eventually see a situation of both Spren and Rosharan needing healing and giving to each other?

Because it's just a different kind of bond. There are many different kinds of bonds. Bonds do go both ways, but they don't give the same things to both parties and they don't give the same things as the Radiant bond does. Adolin will get something out of this, but he isn't a Radiant, this isn't a Radiant bond. He most likely won't get powers with just this reverse bond, but his soul will be Connected to Maya, his soul will get invested and this will have an effect on him. The fact that in Adolin and Maya's case their roles are reversed matters.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

I think something different will result from this, if not in WaT then later, I believe that Adolin will somehow resurrect Maya and maybe gain the 3rd ideal of the Edgedancers. I don't know what will result, but I hope its something cool and different.

On 11/17/2024 at 6:55 AM, alder24 said:

Their bond is also different. It's not a traditional Nahel Bond, it's not a Radiant bond, it's a different kind of bond alltogehter.

A Lehan bond. lol

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 11/17/2024 at 8:55 AM, alder24 said:

Adolin isn't really that hurt compared to Shallan or Kaladin (who both have seriously cracked souls), so he doesn't need "healing" as much as others, but his bond with Maya will invest him, it will brace his soul and it will bring them closer together.

O, I dunno, finding out your Dad (whom you idolized your entire life) murdered your mother in a fit of Unmade/Odium-induced insanity rage probably left a big ol crack? I'm not going to argue as to who is "the most broken" because that's silly (and also not the point you were making AFAIK) but I would argue that Adolin is in a big need of healing himself.

On 11/17/2024 at 8:55 AM, alder24 said:

Syl doesn't have a cracked soul and they already have a Nahel Bond

I would also argue that Syl's soul is pretty cracked as well. I don't know that for a fact, but it seems logical that between losing her first Knight, sleeping for however many hundreds or thousands of years, and the suffering she's shared with Kaladin, that she's got some cracks of her own.