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Why Mayalaran is Healing


Trusk'our

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In Row and even in OB, we see that Maya has more awareness and ability to act than other Deadeye Spren. 

I hypothesize the reason for this is Adolin's Bond with her. 

There are two reasons I can think of that would make their Bond unique, leading to at least a partial recovery for her mind.

1. Adolin exemplifies the ideals of the Edgedancers. We know that one of the reasons that Kaladin was able to resist the corrupt Sibling's suppression in RoW was because he was closer to Honor's ideal of the Windrunners than normal.

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YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

From what we've seen of Adolin, he seems to naturally follow the ideals of the Edgedancers, which would create a stronger Connection to his Spren than other Shardbearers would have. I believe that this improved Connection is at least partially responsible for Maya's cognitive improvement.

2. Adolin has a more "personal" Connection with Maya than normal. Most Shardbearers see their weapons as precious, powerful tools. Adolin seemed to have a greater, more personal appreciation of his Shardblade than other did, with him talking to Maya even before he knew she was a cognizant being. This would also help form more Connections between Adolin and Maya, thus helping Maya's recovery.

Minor Mistborn spoilers- 

Spoiler

We know because of Feruchemical duralumin's entry in the Ars Arcanum that friendships are counted as part of spiritual Connection. This supports the idea that Adolin's more personal interactions with his blade have helped him form a stronger Connection to it.

In any case, these are the reasons I could find that would explain why Mayalaran has been healing to a degree and why no other Deadeyes seem to be doing that.

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Both of those might help a bit, especially Adolin perceiving Maya as a sapient spren, not a weapon (because spren are susceptible to perception). But that's not all. Adolin simply swearing Edgedancer's ideals won't bring Maya back. That's not enough.

Spoiler

Questioner

With Syl being able to be revived, is Adolin ever going to be able to revive his own blade, or--

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that would be very difficult, because the original-- in most cases, the original person who broke the oath would have to be the one.

Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

The dead Shardblades, could you possibly get Stormlight into them to reawaken them?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Shardblade, could you pump enough Stormlight into them? That alone would not be enough.

Questioner

So you would have to find someone to re-swear with oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something broken on the Spiritual Realm because of the broken oath and simple Stormlight will not fix that.

Questioner

So say--

Brandon Sanderson

If the person were still alive and could re-swear the oath then yes.

Questioner

But someone like [...] could go [...] the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not outside of reason but it would be very, very, very difficult.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

What I believe is happening here is that Adolin and Maya are forming a reverse Nahel Bond. In normal Nahel Bond a Knight has cracks in his soul, which are filled by his spren, strengthening his soul. This is the opposite. Maya has a crack in her soul, the result of BAM imprisonment that ripped a connection from Roshar and all its life, and now Adolin's soul is filling that crack, strengthening Maya in the process. Maya is the Knight here. In this case it's Adolin who is willing to bond, to help, to make her whole again. Adolin learning and seeing Maya as a spren in OB, not as a weapon, helped to start that process - but he did more, he cared for her during that time in CR, talked to her, and was with her - creating a stronger bond between them. And I think we already had confirmation that this is the case, RoW ch 94:

Quote

Maya’s howls came to a crescendo of anguish, then she fell silent, gasping for breath. Weak. Too weak.
Take it, Adolin thought to her. Take some of my strength.
She looked right at him, and despite her scratched-out eyes, she saw him. Adolin felt something, a warmth deep within him. Maya drew in air, filling her lungs. Her expression livid as she gathered all of her strength, she prepared to shout again. Adolin braced himself for the screech. Her mouth opened.

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3 hours ago, alder24 said:

 especially Adolin perceiving Maya as a sapient spren

I have always thought that Maya was healing or whatnot because Adolin was viewing her differently.  Spren are what people think they are... so if Adolin's perception of Maya is different than that of a deadeye, wouldn't that be changing the reality of her plight as a deadeye?

Also, though I am not clear if spren's perception of things affect other spren... but I have always been grumpy about the spren in shademar's view of the deadeyes.  They are all so absolutely sure about the their one and only view of deadeyes.   If the spens' perception does affect the deadeyes, then the spren are hardcore blocking any kind of healing or change where deadeyes are concerned.  Anyone have any clarity on that one?  I thought I remembered reading somewhere that spren's perceptions of spren are irrelevant but, I am not sure of that.

I think what y'all said above is absolutely correct.  I also think Adolin's perception of Maya is fully necessary for the other factors to weigh in.

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7 minutes ago, Nogo said:

I have always thought that Maya was healing or whatnot because Adolin was viewing her differently.  Spren are what people think they are... so if Adolin's perception of Maya is different than that of a deadeye, wouldn't that be changing the reality of her plight as a deadeye?

Also, though I am not clear if spren's perception of things affect other spren... but I have always been grumpy about the spren in shademar's view of the deadeyes.  They are all so absolutely sure about the their one and only view of deadeyes.   If the spens' perception does affect the deadeyes, then the spren are hardcore blocking any kind of healing or change where deadeyes are concerned.  Anyone have any clarity on that one?  I thought I remembered reading somewhere that spren's perceptions of spren are irrelevant but, I am not sure of that.

I think what y'all said above is absolutely correct.  I also think Adolin's perception of Maya is fully necessary for the other factors to weigh in.

Perception likely plays a role. Especially since Adolin treating her more like a person than a weapon or a dead thing sets Connections between him and her.

I'm not sure about Spren's own perception, actually. Though, we do see that emotion Spren are attracted to Radiant Spren (shock Spren crowded Notum after he was attacked by the Tukari in RoW), so they have an effect on the Cognitive Realm. As such, perhaps their perception does effect other Spren, and therefore Deadeyes by extension.

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8 hours ago, Nogo said:

I have always thought that Maya was healing or whatnot because Adolin was viewing her differently.  Spren are what people think they are... so if Adolin's perception of Maya is different than that of a deadeye, wouldn't that be changing the reality of her plight as a deadeye?

That can't be the sole case. After WoR, during OB and RoW, people now know that Shardblades are sprens. Shardbearers are now perceiving them differently and yet only Adolin menaged to make Maya better.

What Adolin did was important. He might not only change his perception of Maya, but change Maya's perception of herself, which might be another important factor.

Spoiler

Questioner

I imagine living Shardblades represent the people they're bonded with. If the person changed over time, would the design of the Shardblade change? For example, with holiness being symmetrical, and somebody was holy, that's gonna be symmetrical. If they became unholy, would their Blade become unsymmetrical?

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna depend on their perceptions of themselves and their spren's perceptions of them. But yes, it can change over time.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 18, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Snipexe

Is there one true Shardblade form for a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

"True" in this sense is mutable and it can change, based on perception. I would say yes, but it is not a kind of platonic truth, it is a momentary truth.

Snipexe

Will dead Shardblades change, when an owner has them for a long time will they slowly change or will they stay the same?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades have changed before that were considered dead.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

8 hours ago, Nogo said:

Also, though I am not clear if spren's perception of things affect other spren... but I have always been grumpy about the spren in shademar's view of the deadeyes.  They are all so absolutely sure about the their one and only view of deadeyes.   If the spens' perception does affect the deadeyes, then the spren are hardcore blocking any kind of healing or change where deadeyes are concerned.  Anyone have any clarity on that one?  I thought I remembered reading somewhere that spren's perceptions of spren are irrelevant but, I am not sure of that.

I couldn't find anything about how spren's perception influences other spren, but it might be mostly about human perception:

Spoiler

Satsuoni

You have mentioned that certain spren are an embodiment of concepts. How does that work for the concepts like honour, that can mean opposite things to different culture groups?

Brandon Sanderson

Human perception has a lot to do with why spren act like they do...

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

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59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That can't be the sole case. After WoR, during OB and RoW, people now know that Shardblades are sprens. Shardbearers are now perceiving them differently and yet only Adolin menaged to make Maya better.

What Adolin did was important. He might not only change his perception of Maya, but change Maya's perception of herself, which might be another important factor.

I agree that I isn't the sole case.   It was in brain until y'all started talking about this though...

I do think that even though people "know" what shardblades are.  Knowing, and legitimately perceiving them that way are two different things.  Also, the sapient spren of Shadesmar "know" that the deadeyes are dead and will never come back.  That kind of thinking (among humans, if we are going to decide that sprens' emotions don't matter) does no good for Maya and all her brethren.  

Lastly, I wonder how much

Spoiler

her speech will change overall perceptions and change the tune of the Recreance from genocide to sacrifice.

I am pretty sure that spren cannot attract spren in the physical real.  I think Syl called Kaladin silly one time concerning that.  Not sure how much we can extrapolate from that.  Also not sure how much it matters when most of the spren are in the CR anyways.  

Last random thought...

Spoiler

When I was first reading SA, I always thought Adolin was going to be a Stoneward.  Edgdancer makes a lot of sense (obviously) and he really does epitomize their strengths.  I just thought I'd share that.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Nogo said:

I am pretty sure that spren cannot attract spren in the physical real.  I think Syl called Kaladin silly one time concerning that.  Not sure how much we can extrapolate from that.  Also not sure how much it matters when most of the spren are in the CR anyways.  

Well, theoretically spren can bond another spren. Is that similar to attracting emotion sprens in PR? A little.

Spoiler

Kolby Bradshaw

Could a spren bond another spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible, probably not a direction I'm ever going to go in the books for inception/recursive sort of weirdness reasons, but theoretically possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

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3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, theoretically spren can bond another spren. Is that similar to attracting emotion sprens in PR? A little.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kolby Bradshaw

Could a spren bond another spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible, probably not a direction I'm ever going to go in the books for inception/recursive sort of weirdness reasons, but theoretically possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

That would be exceedingly strange.  Hmmmm.  I am desperately trying to find the random passage in 5000 pages of book where (I think) Syl said something about not being able to attract spren.   When I find whatever it is I'm thinking of I will post it here.  Back to the Maya thing tho... I am sure that Sanderson has this already all worked out and we're sitting here trying to remake that wheel with whatever tibits he has given us.  Gluttons for punishment we are.

That being said, if Maya doesn't come back I'm going to be an unhappy camper.  I'm just saying.  

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

What I believe is happening here is that Adolin and Maya are forming a reverse Nahel Bond. In normal Nahel Bond a Knight has cracks in his soul, which are filled by his spren, strengthening his soul. This is the opposite. Maya has a crack in her soul, the result of BAM imprisonment that ripped a connection from Roshar and all its life, and now Adolin's soul is filling that crack, strengthening Maya in the process. Maya is the Knight here. In this case it's Adolin who is willing to bond, to help, to make her whole again. Adolin learning and seeing Maya as a spren in OB, not as a weapon, helped to start that process - but he did more, he cared for her during that time in CR, talked to her, and was with her - creating a stronger bond between them. And I think we already had confirmation that this is the case, RoW ch 94:

^^^ I love this idea and agree wholeheartedly.  Tho, in my mind I still assume/presume that once all the fixing is done the Nahel Bond would wind up as a traditional bond (tho maybe because of the way it originates, maybe the 2 way extra bonding provides more power/insight/something).  That just made me think about Sureblood and Gallant and Adolin's bonding there.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Something I noticed is that the Edgedancer alignment might have something to do with it.

They are what I like to call the Cognitive Spiritual Healers(think D&D alignment but with Spiritual, Cognitive & Physical Realms instead of Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic, etc.)

As people have said, Adolin personifies Maya rather than viewing her as a tool. He trains with her constantly and interacts with her beyond that while in the Cognitive Realm. That coupled with the spiritual aspect is what might be facilitating the bond.

The only other example I can also think of is Oathbringer, Dalinar's blade.

Since the sword belonged to a Stoneward, that would place the order as the Physical Spiritual.

Oathbringer is a very stubborn blade.

When you think about it, the number of times that blade has changed hands and returned to the owner must be some sort of record.

Especially at a time when shards are more precious than ever.

You also got to consider that Dalinar became a "legend" partly because of that sword and Stonewards were famously known for practicing acts of remarkable physical activity. Be that in sports or warfare.

I don't know what the previous owner was like with the blade but Dalinar and Oathbringer have a deep, deep connection. Where Adolin thinks of Maya as a friend, Dalinar saw Oathbirnger as a tool. And they were fine with that.

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On 5/1/2023 at 6:56 AM, alder24 said:

That can't be the sole case. After WoR, during OB and RoW, people now know that Shardblades are sprens. Shardbearers are now perceiving them differently and yet only Adolin menaged to make Maya better.

What Adolin did was important. He might not only change his perception of Maya, but change Maya's perception of herself, which might be another important factor.

Well, as far as we know, Adolin is the only person wielding a dead eye blade to actually see that spren in Shadesmar form.  Perhaps the shard bearers know what they wield now, but that's not the same as seeing them as people instead of weapons. Adolin even refers to Pattern and Syl as the souls of Shallan and Kaladin's shard blades when they first enter Shadesmar. Seeing Maya as a full bodied person changed things for him, I think.

I also agree with most of the people on this thread that Adolin being an EdgeDancer type of person played a roll in Maya's recovery.  But what I've found interesting before is that they dead eye spren are very similar to what the singers were like as Parshmen.  

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4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

But what I've found interesting before is that they dead eye spren are very similar to what the singers were like as Parshmen.  

Just now, Telperion said:

That would be a fun connection. :)

That is THE connection - they both suffer because of the imprisonment of Ba Ado Mishram, in the same way - it ripped off part of their connection to Roshar.

After the imprisonment of BAM the Sibling was wounded, lost her Rhythm of Tower, and was unable to hear pure tone of Honor, but because they was not bonded (their Bondsmith had broken the bond earlier), they didn't turn into a deadeye. As the Sibling said RoW ch 49:

Quote

"Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too. [...] That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too."

 

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10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That is THE connection - they both suffer because of the imprisonment of Ba Ado Mishram, in the same way - it ripped off part of their connection to Roshar.

After the imprisonment of BAM the Sibling was wounded, lost her Rhythm of Tower, and was unable to hear pure tone of Honor, but because they was not bonded (their Bondsmith had broken the bond earlier), they didn't turn into a deadeye. As the Sibling said RoW ch 49:

 

So why didnt imprisonment of the thrill do the same thing? Was Ba Ado Mishram a super special spren of odium? Was it originally a child of honor and cultivation? I know they gave the singers forms. But do we know anything else? i have read all the books so don't worry about spoilers.

 

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Just now, Telperion said:

So why didnt imprisonment of the thrill do the same thing? Was Ba Ado Mishram a super special spren of odium? Was it originally a child of honor and cultivation? I know they gave the singers forms. But do we know anything else? i have read all the books so don't worry about spoilers.

BAM was sapient and was connected to the whole Roshar, Thrill wasn't. It only influenced people's emotions, allowing Voidspren to slip into them. Only Mishram was able to connect with so many at once, Thrill doesn't connect like that. BAM imprisonment ripped off connection and identity from Singers, which prevented them from taking forms. We don't know her origins, before she was unmade. For more I recommend Coppermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

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12 hours ago, alder24 said:

That is THE connection - they both suffer because of the imprisonment of Ba Ado Mishram, in the same way - it ripped off part of their connection to Roshar.

After the imprisonment of BAM the Sibling was wounded, lost her Rhythm of Tower, and was unable to hear pure tone of Honor, but because they was not bonded (their Bondsmith had broken the bond earlier), they didn't turn into a deadeye. As the Sibling said RoW ch 49:

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. But here's the interesting point.  It didn't require releasing BAM to restore the singers, so what other options might there be to restore the dead eye spren? Somehow restoring the shard of Honor and having a new one take Tanvast's place is about all I can think of.  Maybe Cultivation could do something, but if could/would she probably would have done so already.

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1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. But here's the interesting point.  It didn't require releasing BAM to restore the singers, so what other options might there be to restore the dead eye spren? Somehow restoring the shard of Honor and having a new one take Tanvast's place is about all I can think of.  Maybe Cultivation could do something, but if could/would she probably would have done so already.

It didn't, Everstorm restored Singers Connection and Identity. Similar thing has to happen with spren - Adolin and Maya are already doing that, Adolin is filling cracks in her soul, restoring her slowly (which is why I believe simply bonding her and becoming an Edgedancer isn't what is happening, as you would need an original knight to reswear Oaths, not somebody else, Adolin and Maya are doing something new, reverse Nahel Bond). The Sibling might get fully restored by the bond with Navani, but they weren't hurt as much as deadeye. You would need to do something on a massive scale - either releasing BAM who would reconnect herself to Roshar, spren and Singers, or a restoration of Honor who with Highstorm could heal them back to their original form. Bondsmithing alone won't help as this is not just Connection but also Identity problem. I don't see any other options.

Personally I don't really want all deadeyes to be restored back to their original form. It would be good, but a bit "boring"? What I want is for them to never go fully back, and form a different kind of bond, like Adolin and Maya are doing, a bond where spren are Knights and people are filling the gaps in their souls with themself. Where spren have some new abilities. That would be an interesting change.

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Random thought here.  Is it possible that the capturing of BAM interrupted/distorted/made more diffcult the spren ability to transfer from CR to PR to seek a bond.   And then the dead-eyes were sent back to CR during the Recreance.   If Adolin brings Maya to the PR the old fashioned way (and Shallan with Testament!), maybe once in the PR they can really get that bond going.

I'm glass half full (maybe empty) about the reverse bond. @alder24I see what you're saying, but also the bond is supposed to be symbiotic and I don't see how it could really be reversed.  I have read many of your previous posts in this regard, and like I say I agree in a lot of ways, (and I see a future headache coming here) but I don't see how the bond could be reversed, or inverted or anything like that.  Anyways, gotta get to work.  

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12 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Random thought here.  Is it possible that the capturing of BAM interrupted/distorted/made more diffcult the spren ability to transfer from CR to PR to seek a bond.   And then the dead-eyes were sent back to CR during the Recreance.   If Adolin brings Maya to the PR the old fashioned way (and Shallan with Testament!), maybe once in the PR they can really get that bond going.

Many deadeyes are stuck in PR, others are stuck in CR - they are stuck wherever they were during Recreance. Maya already is in PR - she is primarily stuck in PR as a Shardblade. If she loses her bond, she will turn into a Shardblade, ready to be picked up and bonded by another person. She is stuck mainly in PR, not CR. Recreance might interfere with spren ability to travel between realms, but that’s a far smaller issue than a giant hole in their spirit web.

17 minutes ago, Nogo said:

I'm glass half full (maybe empty) about the reverse bond. @alder24I see what you're saying, but also the bond is supposed to be symbiotic and I don't see how it could really be reversed.  I have read many of your previous posts in this regard, and like I say I agree in a lot of ways, (and I see a future headache coming here) but I don't see how the bond could be reversed, or inverted or anything like that.  Anyways, gotta get to work.  

I get it, you'll see it someday. Adolin is already giving Maya his strength and breath, physical things that no other spren needs. Normally spren get enhanced cognitive functions, in return they strengthen Knight's spirit web granting them powers. Maya needs to patch holes in her spirit web, Adolin is doing that - he might get something in return (not Surgebinding), but Maya will get far more from it than Adolin.

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53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Personally I don't really want all deadeyes to be restored back to their original form. It would be good, but a bit "boring"? What I want is for them to never go fully back, and form a different kind of bond, like Adolin and Maya are doing, a bond where spren are Knights and people are filling the gaps in their souls with themself. Where spren have some new abilities. That would be an interesting change.

Considering what happened with Seon's (which if they're not spren, they're definitely spren-adjacent) in a very similar situation, if a large scale healing takes place and the damage is repaired, it will very likely restore them to what they were. The damage is definitely more extensive to dead eyes, but was caused by a similar damaging of their world.

Part of me really likes the idea of Adolin restoring Maya without becoming a Radiant.  He's the only main character that isn't invested, at this point. And I think it's good to show characters without powers making an impact.  Sanderson did a good job of that in several of his other stories. That said, I think he will end up as Maya's knight. It seems a lot like how Kaladin never wanted a shard blade, passed on owning one twice, and thought owning one would change who he was, but has never seemed to have a problem using Syl as one. He might not like being a light eyes, but he's never resented having her as his blade.  The way Adolin doesn't want to be a Radiant feels similar.  Kaladin probably still doesn't really want a shard blade, but he's fine with having Syl as one.  Adolin didn't want to be a WindRunner when his father suggested it, and doesn't want a spren's ideals to impact his life, but he'd probably be ok with being a Radiant, if it meant being Maya's knight.

Adolin and Kaladin are very similar, as has been pointed out both in universe and out. They'd probably have a similar response to change in circumstances and responsibility.

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I agree it's a kind of reverse bond. Not an exact opposite - I don't think Maya is going to get the ability to summon Adolin as a Shardblade, though that would be hilarious, and Adolin doesn't need help to fully enter the Physical Realm - but more broadly reverse in terms of spiritwebs. Normally, the human has a "broken soul" - or at least some kind of accessibility, the Lopen isn't broken in the usual sense - and the spren bond "fills the cracks".

In a normal Radiant bond, the spren gains the ability to fully enter the Physical Realm. Maya is already a Shardblade, she can already Physically manifest. What she needs is a Spiritual and/or Cognitive "patch" - much like what the Everstorm provided for parshmen singers.

I think the problem with deadeyes is that a critical bit of their spiritweb got yanked out during the Recreance; it stayed with the Radiant, and when the Radiant died it went back to the Spiritual like other Investiture. Kaladin could fix Syl much more easily because that bit was still attached to him, so all he had to do was swear/re-swear Oaths to reestablish the Connection.

So deadeyes are left with a part of themselves permanently missing. Other forms of damage to spren - regular Cognitive Realm violence - can have similar symptoms, but heal with enough Stormlight, as we learn in RoW.

It's like the deadeye has a hole in its spiritweb and can't give the Stormlight "instructions" on how to patch the hole? Perhaps their Identity changed when they became deadeyes, so any "healing" just ends up restoring them to deadeye state?

I think Adolin is patching Maya's spiritweb hole with his own spiritweb. It's still a Nahel bond between human and spren, where the two spiritwebs begin to become one, but in the opposite direction. That's why Adolin can will strength to Maya - because their souls are deeply linked. It's kind of the reverse of a normal bond granting the human powers.

 

Edited by cometaryorbit
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