I'm becoming increasingly certain that Szeth will be the Champion

[Stark he/him]

For Odium.

 

Hear me out. Odium's champion will need to be someone who Taravangian can lay claim to through Odium's influence.  We saw Rayse try to be tricky with this by trying to corrupt Dalinar, and then Kaladin.  He could use someone obvious, like blind Moash or the Fused of the week to be introduced in this book, but both those options would be slightly disappointing.  They also would be enemies that our heroes could be planning for.  Toadium is going to go for a rug pull.  Its how he has operated from the start.

Taravangian is now Odium, and has been seen to be exploiting loopholes in the contract.  Before his death, Szeth's final master was Taravangian, the last bearer of his Oathstone.  As far as we know, Szeth's death released him from any obligation to the stone, but I doubt that the law had any contingencies for returning to life after death.  That may be enough to create a loophole to claim him as his former master. 

So Taravangian has a foothold, but what about the shard Odium?  All while Szeth was murdering world leaders at Vargo's behest, he came to loathe his victims.  He hated them for not being strong enough to kill him.  If anyone was to be said to have let hatred take root in their soul, Szeth is a viable candidate.

Also worth noting, in the recent Szeth chapter, he still balks at making his own decisions.  He relies on his Master to determine the path forward for him, his current Masters being his Highspren and Dalinar.  Given that methodology, if Toadium can lay claim, as part of a legal contract, his own Highspren may then enforce the contract.  It's the law. 

But what would be the crisis used to tip Szeth into being open to Odium's full influence?  Finding out Taravangian survived.  He wanted him dead.  It would have been justice.  But Dalinar showed mercy.  And that mercy allowed Taravangian to not only survive, but ascend to virtual immortality.  Finding that out could push Szeth into a hatred crisis targeted at Dalinar.

Finally, Szeth being the champion of Odium would make for an excellent palindrome.  He started the first book killing a Kholin king who was proto-bonding the Stormfather.  Ending the fifth book being sent to kill another Kholin king bound to the Stormfather would be a very fun element of symmetry.

So yeah, I can think of a ton of reasons why Szeth would be the chosen champion of Odium for thematic, legal, dramatic and painful reasons.  I hope that Szeth has a kinder fate awaiting him, but I currently see this ending as a clash between the Knight of Stone and Dalinar's champion.  What do you all think.

 

Side note. 

Spoiler

If we find out that Szeth's spren's name is Auxiliary, I am going to freak.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Stark

[Erklitt]

I think this theory has a lot going for it. Also, I like it much better than several other theories about Odium's champion. I don't want to see Adolin or Gavinor or anyone else we have reason to root for. I never liked Szeth, he is just too fanatical, no matter which side he currently fights for.

I would like Kaladin to be able to help Szeth and gather more experience as a therapist. But that could still happen, before Szeth finds out about TOdium, and then things could go like you describe. Or Kaladin makes a few beginner mistakes with Szeth and learns from those, only to be better able to help Ishar.

To your excellent reasons I would like to add one more: between now and the time he'll find out about TOdium, he will (try to?) 'bring justice' to the leaders of Shinovar. It sounds a lot like he's planning to kill them. We know too little about that whole situation yet for intelligent theory making, but there are several possibilities:

• The Shamans were acting in good faith when they made him Truthless. Whatever happened since then to make Shinovar go dark, we don't know for sure it was their fault. In that case they certainly owe Szeth an apology and, if possible, some sort of reparation, but they don't deserve death. His Highspren will probably not approve. Killing them drives Szeth deeper into guilt and hatred, opening him to Odium.
• They were acting in good faith back then but since that time they've become guilty of creating or worsening the current situation. Maybe they deserve death by now, but that's not Szeth's reason for killing them. We don't even know whether he knows about more recent developments. So he'll still kill them for the wrong reason, a personal revenge that has nothing to do with their real guilt. In that case his Highspren might approve, and while he won't feel as guilty, his hatred will still have won the day, again opening him to Odium
• The Shamans knew better even back then. They fully deserve Szeth's revenge. He has no need to face his personal hatred, because full justice was done. Then, when he learns about TOdium, this part of your theory will take its fullest effect:

  6 hours ago, Stark said:

  But what would be the crisis used to tip Szeth into being open to Odium's full influence?  Finding out Taravangian survived.  He wanted him dead.  It would have been justice.  But Dalinar showed mercy.  And that mercy allowed Taravangian to not only survive, but ascend to virtual immortality.  Finding that out could push Szeth into a hatred crisis targeted at Dalinar.

  He never trusted Taravangian. He did trust Dalinar. Disappointed trust can lead to much more hatred than ill-usage. He may decide that Dalinar deserves more punishment than Taravangian, because he 'seemed good' in a way T never did. Driving him to fight even for T if it's against Dalinar.

 

 

One very small matter: this is the no-cosmere-spoiler-forum. So (VERY mild TSM spoiler)

Spoiler

Side note.  If we find out that Szeth's spren's name is Auxiliary, I am going to freak.

probably should have a spoiler frame in your post, too, though it doesn't really give anything away about TSM.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Erklitt

[Stark he/him]

50 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

probably should have a spoiler frame in your post, too, though it doesn't really give anything away about TSM.

Noted and agreed.  I have fixed it.  I like your points!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I hate this because I want my poor child to be happy for once in his life

But yeah, I think this is extremely plausible. I disagree/half-agree with a few specific points though.

9 hours ago, Stark said:

Given that methodology, if Toadium can lay claim, as part of a legal contract, his own Highspren may then enforce the contract.  It's the law. 

The law is what many Skybreakers swear to, but it's not what Szeth has. I mean, surely going to wipe out the leaders of Shinovar is against their laws, but he's doing it anyway. His oath is to Dalinar's will, which sure as hell doesn't include him returning to Taravangian's service. Besides, the premise of him being declared Truthless was false, and the Skybreakers are supposed to defend the innocent as much as they're supposed to prosecute the guilty, I don't think the highspren would view his binding to the Oathstone as valid.

9 hours ago, Stark said:

But what would be the crisis used to tip Szeth into being open to Odium's full influence?  Finding out Taravangian survived.  He wanted him dead.  It would have been justice.  But Dalinar showed mercy.  And that mercy allowed Taravangian to not only survive, but ascend to virtual immortality.  Finding that out could push Szeth into a hatred crisis targeted at Dalinar.

Dalinar's mercy didn't allow Taravangian to Ascend, Szeth going to kill him did. I don't think it'll make him hate Dalinar, but it would likely make him go "crap, I really can't be trusted to make my own choices, this is what happens when I do", which could lead to a similar end result.

I do have another qualm as well: the Knights of Wind and Truth epigraphs speak of a separate "contest" happening in Shinovar tied to Szeth's quest, and Wit says Kaladin and Syl won't be coming back. These don't explicitly say Szeth won't be coming back, but together they imply to me that his plotline probably ends separately from Dalinar's. Possible Szeth could be the "champion" of whoever the Wind has Kaladin fighting, though (please Brandon do not do this to me let him have a happy ending pleaaaase ).

[Stark he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I hate this because I want my poor child to be happy for once in his life

I'm not fond of it either, and hope I'm wrong.  It just feels thematically relevant.  Thank you for pointing out that Kaladin can't be the other champion, thanks to the epigraphs!  I'd forgotten that, and the last thing I'd want to see was a rehash of Kaladin vs Szeth.

I just don't think that the champion will be a newly introduced character.  It actually can't be a fused, as they can't go to Urithiru where the contest will happen.  Moash would also be thematically disappointing.  

Szeth fits in ways that make me worried, because I don't want him to be the champion...

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, Stark said:

I just don't think that the champion will be a newly introduced character.

Agreed, especially now that even Odium himself is someone we've known since Book 1.

16 minutes ago, Stark said:

It actually can't be a fused, as they can't go to Urithiru where the contest will happen.

This probably isn't it, but I wonder if Taravangian could send a Fused, let them get knocked out by the suppressor, and claim Dalinar's side is in violation because the Sibling won't let them in?

14 minutes ago, Stark said:

Moash would also be thematically disappointing.

Same. I don't think Moash would fit against anyone other than Kaladin, but I'd also be disappointed if Kaladin's arc returned to "fight Moash again" instead of moving on. (Plus it's not the direction I would want Moash's arc to go either, but tbh I'm still not sure what to expect from him this book anyway.)

17 minutes ago, Stark said:

Szeth fits in ways that make me worried, because I don't want him to be the champion...

Yeah, the connection to Taravangian feels relevant, and he's always been teetering between light and dark since he's become a protagonist—I mean just look at the symbolism in Oathbringer...

Spoiler

Soldiers cursed and coughed, backing up as something resolved in the center of the tempest. A figure in the smoke, glowing white and holding a jet-black Shardblade that seemed to feed on the smoke, sucking it in, then letting it pour down beneath itself as a liquid blackness.

White and black. A man with a shaved head, eyes glowing a light grey, Stormlight rising from him. He straightened and strode through the smoke, leaving an afterimage behind. Lift had seen this man before. The Assassin in White. Murderer.

And apparently savior.

White light, black smoke, grey eyes, I respect the commitment to the bit lmao. Szeth and Kaladin really do just have drama in their veins.

[TwinStorm He/Him]

I agree, especially since the Way of Kings blurb specifies that one of them may destroy us.

[Sedside she/her]

Well, if Szeth was the Odium's Champion, we would brobably not have these WaT Ch. 10-13 epigraphs combined?

Quote

All agree the first key moment came when Kaladin Stormblessed listened. Though not an Edgedancer, he did a fine impression of their oaths. The second moment had happened already, when Szeth himself decided to take upon him this quest. The one that would shape all of our futures. I was not with them. I did not know of their quest. Yet I will do my best to recount their story, and that of the Wind. For they were her champions.

I highly doubt that whoever in-book WaT author is they would call Szeth Wind's champion, if they already knew he was Odium's Champion.

The second reason is that in Dalinar's first vision of Odium's Champion in OB he mentions that there was something terribly familiar in his eyes. Dalinar has met Szeth twice at that point and both times he was fighting for his life, I don't think his eyes could get very familiar to Dalinar in such circumstances.

The third reason, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense. Szeth was one of the main villains for two books, then he found his way to Team Honor, for what? Just to eventually turn villain again? Because Taravangian survived? And after he supposedly completes his crusade against the people who condemed and exiled him, so they were the ones guilty for the way his life went in the first place? No way.

[+Child of Hodor]

There might not even be Champions. Dalinar is insisting on being his own champion and WaT cover shows him atop Urithiru alone looking at the approaching Everstorm. 

I'm expecting the contest to be some wild philosophical, metaphysical contest between Taravangian and Dalinar. Will Taravangian destroy Dalinar with facts and logic? Do facts care about Odium's feelings?!?

Maybe Dalinar beats Taravangian to death with his book literally or figuratively or both! 

[Lenth]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

There might not even be Champions. Dalinar is insisting on being his own champion and WaT cover shows him atop Urithiru alone looking at the approaching Everstorm. 

I'm expecting the contest to be some wild philosophical, metaphysical contest between Taravangian and Dalinar. Will Taravangian destroy Dalinar with facts and logic? Do facts care about Odium's feelings?!?

Maybe Dalinar beats Taravangian to death with his book literally or figuratively or both! 

You know, that's actually a decdnt theory. I can't believe it never crossed my mind. It would certainly be very dramatic, given their history.

There might be some Shard thing that prohibits Odium from acting so directly, however. But maybe he'll ignore it, being so new.

Storms, I just wish we knew more about what the contest entails. It's been implied it'll be more than fighting, but what does that even mean?

[Stark he/him]

8 hours ago, Sedside said:

Well, if Szeth was the Odium's Champion, we would brobably not have these WaT Ch. 10-13 epigraphs combined?

I highly doubt that whoever in-book WaT author is they would call Szeth Wind's champion, if they already knew he was Odium's Champion.

The second reason is that in Dalinar's first vision of Odium's Champion in OB he mentions that there was something terribly familiar in his eyes. Dalinar has met Szeth twice at that point and both times he was fighting for his life, I don't think his eyes could get very familiar to Dalinar in such circumstances.

The third reason, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense. Szeth was one of the main villains for two books, then he found his way to Team Honor, for what? Just to eventually turn villain again? Because Taravangian survived? And after he supposedly completes his crusade against the people who condemed and exiled him, so they were the ones guilty for the way his life went in the first place? No way.

This is an excellent refutation of my worry, and I thank you for it.  Rayse did get killed off to avoid recycling a failed villain.  Re-using Szeth would fall into the same trap.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong, I just don't see a satisfying champion unless we already know the character already.  Which so far leaves Toadium going all Thanos 'Fine, I'll do it myself!', or a bunch of other champions that have significant issues.

 

There is that newish character teased by the mini's in the kickstarter.  But even that is a newly introduced character to be the villain of the week, and would be inherently less satisfying than the champion being someone established that we are invested in.  Pun intended.

 

All that to say, hope I'm wrong.  Worried I'm right.

 

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

There might not even be Champions. Dalinar is insisting on being his own champion and WaT cover shows him atop Urithiru alone looking at the approaching Everstorm. 

I'm expecting the contest to be some wild philosophical, metaphysical contest between Taravangian and Dalinar. Will Taravangian destroy Dalinar with facts and logic? Do facts care about Odium's feelings?!?

Maybe Dalinar beats Taravangian to death with his book literally or figuratively or both! 

This would be satisfying, and invert the expectation of comment, and complete Dalinar's journey away from Warlord.  I like it.  Except using the book as a murder weapon.  Treat you books better than that people.

[Cocoa he/him]

I've mentioned before to friends that Szeth is my dark horse candidate for Champion, but I don't think it will have anything to do with his oathstone if he does wind up going that route, so much as his tenuous sanity, his incompletely attached soul, and exposure to whatever Unmade nonsense is happening in Shinovar (something like how Odium 'took' Moash's pain). The whole crux of Szeth's first arc is that he wasn't Truthless, that he was right about the Radiants returning all along and that his entire sentencing was a sham, that Taravangian never had power over him and that the responsibility for his actions was ultimately his own. I don't think that gels with Todium laying claim to him on the basis that he was the last person to command Szeth using his oathstone.

[Stark he/him]

On 10/9/2024 at 7:02 AM, Child of Hodor said:

There might not even be Champions. Dalinar is insisting on being his own champion and WaT cover shows him atop Urithiru alone looking at the approaching Everstorm. 

I'm expecting the contest to be some wild philosophical, metaphysical contest between Taravangian and Dalinar. Will Taravangian destroy Dalinar with facts and logic? Do facts care about Odium's feelings?!?

Maybe Dalinar beats Taravangian to death with his book literally or figuratively or both! 

Thinking more on this, and it starts to make more sense ( not the book murder, the rest).  Taravangian asked the Nightwatcher for the capacity to stop what was coming.  In return he got days of absolute brilliance, lacking all value for human life, and days of pure empathy, lacking intelligence.  What if Cultivation is playing the real long game here.  What if the capacity he received was twofold?  Not just the capacity to trap Rayse and take the power of Odium himself, using a trap from his intelligence, but also the capacity to lose the challenge on a day of pure empathy?

 

What if that is the key, Taravangian will show up to the challenge, but have an empathetic day, throw the fight and lose?

 

The other fun thing to consider is that we already ow that when you blend Honor and Odium, you get War.  I figure if you blend Cultivation and Odium, you get Vengeance, but that is for another thread. But Honorlight and OdiumLight blended using the Rhythm of War gives you Warlight.  What if Dalinar is set to Unite them, Honor and Odium to make War?  And Dalinar was another personal touch from Cultivation.

 

Cosmere: 

Spoiler

We have Harmony, and we know there ends up being a large conflict between Scadrial and Roshar.  That conflict becomes easier to see brewing if Roshar now has a being dedicated to War, another double shard, that has united the humans and the singers of Roshar.  It may not be Dalinar's intention, but with a Shard of War, he may not have a choice.

 

[+Crossen]

I think you are exactly right. I have been meaning to write a post that ties everything with Szeth all together: that he is the child champion and that the duel ends up in either a loss or a tie with the Stormfather either dying or becoming incapacitated due to the results of the duel (and thus no more easy access to Stormlight). I had an old post on this that I will quote below, but over my re-read I did find some more foreshadowing that would suggest that Szeth can be considered a child for the child champion theory tie in.

TWOK I-3:

Quote

Took—Szeth’s current master—set his cup down on the table’s tilted side. It sagged under the weight of his arm. “Yeah, he sure will. Hey, kurp, look at me.”
Szeth looked up. “Kurp” meant child in the local Bav dialect. Szeth was accustomed to such pejorative labels. Though he was in his thirty-fifth year—and his seventh year since being named Truthless—his people’s large, round eyes, shorter stature, and tendency toward baldness led Easterners to claim they looked like children.

  TWOK I-6:

Quote

With only his eyes and bald head showing, he unnerved the people who passed by. Shin eyes, too round, slightly too large.
The people here thought them similar to the eyes of a child.

ROW 85:

Quote

The Shin man didn’t strike. He stood opposite Dalinar, motionless, expressionless, water dripping down his face.
Unnaturally calm.
Dalinar was far taller and broader. This small man in white, with his pale skin, seemed almost a youth, a stripling by comparison.

My earlier post with some more info:

On 4/27/2021 at 11:45 AM, Crossen said:

I think that the "child" is really a metaphor for a crying or weeping person and I think that Szeth is this person.

What we know about book 5:

1. It's Szeth's flashback book.

2. Szeth and Kaladin are going to Shinovar.

3. Taravangian's Diagram indicates one or more Unmade has set up in Shinovar.

4. Szeth hears those he killed when he shuts his eyes.

I think that the Unmade in Shinovar is Dai-gonarthis and this Unmade is what is causing Szeth's hallucinations. 

Quote

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!

Szeth and Kaladin may confront this Unmade when they are in Shinovar.

A child is also mentioned in another deathrattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

The only three people that I think are strongly tied to their homeland are Dalinar, Szeth and the Stormfather. I think that this does not refer to the Stormfather so I will skip him (even though he does seem like a baby sometimes). Both Alethkar and Shinovar have mountains nearby, but Shinovar does have a lot more of them. Szeth is also more likely to be on top of the mountains since he can fly. Also his birthplace is the Valley of Truth, a place that sounds like it could be prone to a flood.

This would lead me to believe that Szeth is the child in this deathrattle:

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

And that they will choose to not kill him.

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Also an interesting bit of foreshadowing if this is true:

Quote

What I am owed will come to me eventually! Every bit of it. I will drown in it, stonewalker! 

-Szeth to Dalinar

I also think it is funny that they only thing that has been retconned in the books is the taking back that Kaladin killed Szeth in WOR and making it a psuedo-suicide instead. If my theory is correct then the pre-retcon story would not make sense because why would Kaladin be allowed to kill Szeth before in WOR but they cannot now? That question gets eliminated with the retcon.

Here are the deathrattles that suggest that the Stormfather will be deadeyed as a result of them not being able to kill Szeth and will no longer be able to grant Stormlight. I was planning to write more but that is kind of off topic for this thread.
 

Quote

You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!

Quote

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

Quote

Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.

Quote

The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.

Quote

Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above.

Quote

The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...

Quote

The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!

 

Edited October 14, 2024 by Crossen

[Stark he/him]

So, I was wrong.

 

However, in terms of this:

On 10/8/2024 at 9:13 AM, Stark said:

  Reveal hidden contents

If we find out that Szeth's spren's name is Auxiliary, I am going to freak.

This feels extremely deliberate:

Spoiler

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by Stark
Misplaced spoiler

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

So, I was wrong.

 

However, in terms of this:

This feels extremely deliberate:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yeah, especially considering that he’s the Highspren Sigzil met at the end of the book, and that as I’ve seen other people point out, his name 12124, has the alphabetical numbers of A (1) U (21) and X (24).

Edited December 16, 2024 by Ookla the nostealnamepls

[Stark he/him]

I just saw that as well.  Independently, both are pretty neat.  Taken together, it becomes 1+1

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

I just saw that as well.  Independently, both are pretty neat.  Taken together, it becomes 1+1

and you know what they say: 1+1 ≠ coincidence. 

[TheOtherDave]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

and you know what they say: 1+1 ≠ coincidence. 

I thought it was “1+1=3 for sufficiently large values of 1”

[Immortal Platypus]

20 minutes ago, TheOtherDave said:

I thought it was “1+1=3 for sufficiently large values of 1”

and 3 ≠ coincidence. both can be true