Now the Broken One reigns

[therunner he/him]

In light of the recent Interlude preview (https://reactormag.com/read-wind-and-truth-by-brandon-sanderson-interludes-1-and-2/), I think the Deathrattle

Quote

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns!

-Collected: Chachnan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Irali descent.

is about Taravangian and Odium.

Specifically, he calls him-self now The Divided One, which is not so far from the Broken One. And is clearly set on ruling the planet first, and Cosmere then.

Side-note: From his interaction with Cultivation (and his Divided nature) it seems to me that my theory on "Shards 2.0" got some support, in that the modification Cultivation did on Taravangian persisted now that he is Vessel, and seems intended to let him handle the power 'safely'.

[+Child of Hodor]

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

In light of the recent Interlude preview (https://reactormag.com/read-wind-and-truth-by-brandon-sanderson-interludes-1-and-2/), I think the Deathrattle

is about Taravangian and Odium.

Specifically, he calls him-self now The Divided One, which is not so far from the Broken One. And is clearly set on ruling the planet first, and Cosmere then.

Side-note: From his interaction with Cultivation (and his Divided nature) it seems to me that my theory on "Shards 2.0" got some support, in that the modification Cultivation did on Taravangian persisted now that he is Vessel, and seems intended to let him handle the power 'safely'.

Yes, but I would add that Rayse and Odium had a very similar schism that was further along. Rayse insisting he's Pasison instead of Odium and in RoW we see light inside of Ryase trying to break out of him. They both fit. In WoK when Kaladin asks the Stormfather about all the war in the world Stormfather says "Odium Reighs". The Broken One has arguably been ruling Roshar for a long time now. 

[therunner he/him]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yes, but I would add that Rayse and Odium had a very similar schism that was further along. Rayse insisting he's Pasison instead of Odium and in RoW we see light inside of Ryase trying to break out of him. They both fit. In WoK when Kaladin asks the Stormfather about all the war in the world Stormfather says "Odium Reighs". The Broken One has arguably been ruling Roshar for a long time now. 

I think the schism is actually very different.

For ROdium, the schism was between Shard and Vessel (e.g. Rayse suppressing his subordinates Passions and Anger, see the Interlude with Sja-Anat).
For TOdium, the schism is within the Vessel, it is Taravangian who is Divided into Logical and Emotional parts.

And based on what Taravangian feels, I think Rayse was closer than we realized when framing Odium as Passion. In this very Interlude, Taravangian feels not just hatred, but also suffering and anger of people in Cosmere. Hatred might be dominant, but other emotions/Passions are clearly there. Even when Ascending, Taravangian described it as

Quote

the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

so other emotions are there. It's just that Hatred underlies it all (like we see here, when Taravangian readily finds reason to hate other Shards).

 

[Kfish]

Yeah, I don't feel like this is much of a revelation as it's been clear all along that the broken one was Odium.

 

With that said, the opening of Odium holding a dying child made me think of this death rattle:

 

"

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. " 

 

I'm thinking that I've always thought of this one too literally. Odium wants to act to prevent these harms but in doing so will make things worse. Everyone alive wants him to let the child die - essentially killing him - to make things better in the long run.

[therunner he/him]

7 minutes ago, Kfish said:

Yeah, I don't feel like this is much of a revelation as it's been clear all along that the broken one was Odium.

I don't think the Broken One is Odium, I think it is specifically Taravangian as Odium.

It would not apply previously.

8 minutes ago, Kfish said:

With that said, the opening of Odium holding a dying child made me think of this death rattle:
"

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. " 

 

I'm thinking that I've always thought of this one too literally. Odium wants to act to prevent these harms but in doing so will make things worse. Everyone alive wants him to let the child die - essentially killing him - to make things better in the long run.

I thought about this one as well, but I am unsure how to fit it, especially the ending of it "gain us further breath to draw. "

[coolsnow7]

I'm going to be contrarian and say: I'm not sold.

"Divided" and "broken" are not the same. If Brandon wanted us to know that that's who this refers to, he would have used the same language. And if he specifically wanted to hide this connection, well, there was no need to refer to Odium as "the divided one" at all.

It could be that Odium is going to progress to some further, scarier state wherein he is "broken" rather than merely divided (I lean towards this - for example, if Renarin's vision of the spark of Taravangian going out comes true). Or, it could be this will wind up referring to some other Shard who undergoes/has undergone breaking. Either way, I actually think this is evidence that the Deathrattle does not refer to Odium as he is now. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I personally haven't read it as having his boon/curse continue on after taking up Odium. It seems to me that it is just the nature of holding the shard of Odium - he has to feel all of the emotions and passion and pain of all those people, and yet he still has the more logical side of him that can think separately from those feelings. I think it was more so that Cultivation was trying to prepare him for being able to handle the shard by giving him a boon that would train him to balance emotions and logic in a particular way.

So to me, it's more that he learned from the boon/curse and that impacted how he functioned in a major way, but I don't think he still has a lasting magical effect or active influence on him from Cultivation's boon/curse. He's just been trained to think of himself in those two parts, and the Odium shard in particular brings a strong conflict of those two core human attributes. Cultivation was trying to influence him leading up to taking the shard, but I don't think she could continue to have an active impact, just residual effects from how the boon/curse changed who he was/would become as a mortal.

[+robardin he/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think the Broken One is Odium, I think it is specifically Taravangian as Odium.

It would not apply previously.

I thought about this one as well, but I am unsure how to fit it, especially the ending of it "gain us further breath to draw. "

I like the interpretation, but it does raise some even more interesting questions.

Like, how could a "death rattle" - a vision derived from Moelach, one of the "Mindless" Unmade along with Ashertmarn, whose power derives ultimately from being a splinter of Odium - predict a "future Odium" with a different Vessel, where Rayse/Odium himself couldn't see it?

I also have always wondered how death rattles served Odium's interest at all. With Ashertmarn, "The Heart of the Revel", we could see both a certain kind of "passion" being exhibited (lust and gluttony), and a kind of mind-numbing effect thereby that prepared Kholinar's population to follow Aesudan's voidspren and Odium-influenced actions.

And it was also mentioned that Moelach seemed to have moved to the Horneater Peaks, which have "destabilized" as a result.

So what is it about death rattles that destabilize things? Is it that some people, like Taravangian, may be driven to wholesale murder to accumulate them?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

So what is it about death rattles that destabilize things? Is it that some people, like Taravangian, may be driven to wholesale murder to accumulate them?

I think it's along these lines, yeah. See also the legend of Extes (tWoK 49):

Quote

There were stories of evil men made immortal, then tortured over and over again—like Extes, who had his arms torn off each day for sacrificing his son to the Voidbringers in exchange for knowledge of the day of his death. It was just a tale, but tales came from somewhere.

The Death Rattles drive people to behave in ways that divide them from others, and are so vague that realistically most won't even get anything useful anyway and rather will just muck things up based on what they assume it means. Like... for all his Silent Gathering, do we actually know of a single useful thing Taravangian got out of Moelach rather than the Diagram?

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think it's along these lines, yeah. See also the legend of Extes (tWoK 49):

The Death Rattles drive people to behave in ways that divide them from others, and are so vague that realistically most won't even get anything useful anyway and rather will just muck things up based on what they assume it means. Like... for all his Silent Gathering, do we actually know of a single useful thing Taravangian got out of Moelach rather than the Diagram?

Yeah, and yet, exactly because his Gathering was successfully Silent, it didn't really divide the people of Kharbranth. It just further dehumanized Taravangian and the Diagram.

I mean, Taravangian knew exactly where they were coming from: an Unmade. And he did that anyway.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Like... for all his Silent Gathering, do we actually know of a single useful thing Taravangian got out of Moelach rather than the Diagram?

The very first death rattle he heard, the one of his dying mother, which set him on this path that ended with Ascension. WaT prologue:

Quote

“Will you believe me?” Taravangian asked. “Ten years ago, my mother died of her tumors. Frail, lying on her bed, with too many perfumes struggling to smother the stench of death. She gazed at me in her last moments…” He met Gavilar’s eyes. “And she whispered: ‘I stand before him, above the world itself, and he speaks the truth. The Desolation is near… The Everstorm. The Night of Sorrows.’ Then she was gone.”

I think Taravangian was collecting death rattles out of desperation, not practicality, trying to find anything that would help him better understand the Diagram. This one death rattle was useful and precious to him so he just hoped he would find another one of those - I don't think he did. 

I also don't think death rattles are the only thing Moelach does - causing madness is probably his main job. Not to mention that just like other Unmades, he has the aura of wrongfulness around him that twists people's mind and soul. Death rattles might be a side effect. OB ch 88:

Quote

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”
“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”
“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

Yeah, and yet, exactly because his Gathering was successfully Silent, it didn't really divide the people of Kharbranth.

But imagine if it had come out that this city everyone views as a peaceful center of healing knowledge is using its hospitals for this... Plus, most of the top surgeons of other eastern nations probably can trace their learning back there—how much doubt would that sow in the system, how many ill or wounded would refuse treatment out of paranoia? It didn't pay off this time, but it doesn't need to always work, only often enough.

9 hours ago, robardin said:

It just further dehumanized Taravangian and the Diagram.

That too, yeah. Great way to ease people into "maybe Odium can be useful for us after all..."

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

The very first death rattle he heard, the one of his dying mother, which set him on this path that ended with Ascension.

Okay fair lol, though that wasn't from the Silent Gatherers anyway I presume.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

causing madness is probably his main job.

Isn't that more Ashertmarn's duty?

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

Aren’t the death rattles just a side effect of the Unmade’s influence? I could swear I saw that somewhere, but I can’t find it (I think it might have had something to do with Deathspren)

I think I found it. One theory was that the death rattles were unintentional. They were Moelach feeding on investiture via Deathspren to see into the future. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Isn't that more Ashertmarn's duty?

I think more than one Unmade makes people mad, judging from Jez's statement. Ashertmarn makes people lose their mind in lust, the Thrill makes them lose it in a battle rage, Moelach might do something like that too. There must be a reason for why Jezrien listed him as an Unmade causing some kind of madness or mental problems. And whatever it means that Moelach is scratching - probably trying to reach people's souls.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

There must be a reason for why Jezrien listed him as an Unmade causing some kind of madness or mental problems.

I can see that read, but it's not how I took it; to me it simply sounded like Dalinar asked "the hell are you on about?" and Jezrien said "idk cuckoo bananas".

[alder24]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I can see that read, but it's not how I took it; to me it simply sounded like Dalinar asked "the hell are you on about?" and Jezrien said "idk cuckoo bananas".

Possible, but I don't think so. In the context of their whole discussion, Jez's words are too coherent and too intentional to be just a bunch of nonsense. They were talking about voices, pain and torment they both shared and Jezrien liked that Dalinar is feeling this too, that's why he asked which one got him. I think Jezrien honestly tried to explain to Dalinar what he meant, but didn’t do a good job with it - that Dalinar was under Unmade's influence. An Unmade touch doesn't have to lead directly to madness, but to pain, suffering and mental trauma that may turn into true madness. A form of pressure exerted on one's mind that can bend or even break it. 

Edited September 18, 2024 by alder24

[LewsTherinTelescope]

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In the context of their whole discussion, Jez's words are too coherent and too intentional to be just a bunch of nonsense. They were talking about voices, pain and torment they both shared and Jezrien liked that Dalinar is feeling this too, that's why he asked which one got him.

To be clear I don't think it was literally unrelated nonsense, more like:

Quote

Ahu: "Hey you look bad, what Unmade got you?"

Dalinar: "No clue what that means."

Ahu: "Nvm maybe I'm just going crazy then. So anyway lemme trauma dump..."

Not that it's literally nonsensical words, but that Jezrien assumes Dalinar's unfamiliarity with the question means maybe he was just seeing things because of his insanity, when actually he was right on the money.

[Inevitability]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:23 AM, therunner said:

In light of the recent Interlude preview (https://reactormag.com/read-wind-and-truth-by-brandon-sanderson-interludes-1-and-2/), I think the Deathrattle

is about Taravangian and Odium.

Specifically, he calls him-self now The Divided One, which is not so far from the Broken One. And is clearly set on ruling the planet first, and Cosmere then.

Side-note: From his interaction with Cultivation (and his Divided nature) it seems to me that my theory on "Shards 2.0" got some support, in that the modification Cultivation did on Taravangian persisted now that he is Vessel, and seems intended to let him handle the power 'safely'.

I really like this connection of Divided One and Broken One.

I like it especially since I think you can take what we’ve learned from the interlude about Taravodium being either all logic or all passion. 
 

Humor me for a second - What if Honor’s last gasp effort to save humanity (UNITE THEM) wasn’t focused on a strategy meant to eliminate or neutralize his opponent, but rather to redeem. What if UNITE THEM wasn’t referring to the kingdoms of Alethkar but rather to the split nature of Odium. What if the answer to this all is to fix Odium and change the dominating aspect of the Shard, a la a similar function to what is being hinted at with another Shard who seems to not be so harmonious anymore.
 

Idk what a reverse polarity Odium would become, maybe Empathy….

 

 

Edited September 18, 2024 by Inevitability