Cultivation and Shards 2.0

[therunner he/him]

Originally I wanted to only reply, but then I realized I don't want to hijack a thread.
So this was inspired/encouraged by post by @Quantus over in Dalinar's power thread in SA forums.

On 07/06/2023 at 10:36 PM, Quantus said:

Another corollary theory is that Cultivation has specifically prepared replacement vessels for each of the three Shards in Dalinar, Lift, and MrT.

This is an idea that I also had few times, but never though too much about it.

I would posit additional corollary, Cultivation is specifically trying to prepare vessels for the Shards in such a way that they won't be as influenced by Intent as they would be normally, and each of the three represents a different approach:

1. Taravangian experienced great extremes of both emotion and intelligence. It is plausible that it could have been intended as sort of preparation for handling the strongly emotional and unruly power of Odium, in fact Cultivation says she hopes he will bare the power with honor. Additionally, the effect might still be in place, it was RAFOed.
   • This represents trying to condition a Vessel into being able to handle the power.
2. Dalinar might be a new thing in that he will not fully Ascended, but instead will Bond a Shard of Honor that will be merged with Stormfather.
   • Corollary: This could possibly allow him to reinterpret the Intent more easily (e.g. Unity).
   • This would be trying to get around limitation on Shards via Indirect Ascension, similar to what Dalinar did on Theyalen Fields, but on more permanent basis.
3. Lift specifically asked to stay the same " I want to stay me. Not become someone else. ", and while she thought it would meant she won't grow older, I would posit that instead Cultivation specifically made changes that will allow her Cognitive and Spiritual aspect to be fortified against external influence (e.g. Intent of Shard).
   • Corollary: I would posit also that not only she creates Lifelight, she specifically creates Liftlight, e.g. Lifelight aligned more with her (e.g. what Lifelight would be, had Lift held Shard). We know that holding Lights has various cognitive effects, so it would make sense to grant her ability to create Light that would not do that to her.
   • This would trying to get around Intent by fortifying Cognitive and Spiritual Aspects of the Vessel-to-be.

TL;DR: I argue that Cultivation is attempting to cultivate process of becoming a Shard in-order to create sort of Shard 2.0, one where Vessel is less influenced and bound by Intent. Each of Dalinar, Lift and Taravangian represent different approach to this problem.

Edited June 13, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

Originally I wanted to only reply, but then I realized I don't want to hijack a thread.
So this was inspired/encouraged by post by @Quantus over in Dalinar's power thread in SA forums.

This is an idea that I also had few times, but never though too much about it.

I would posit additional corollary, Cultivation is specifically trying to prepare vessels for the Shards in such a way that they won't be as influenced by Intent as they would be normally, and each of the three represents a different approach:

1. Taravangian experienced great extremes of both emotion and intelligence. It is plausible that it could have been intended as sort of preparation for handling the strongly emotional and unruly power of Odium, in fact Cultivation says she hopes he will bare the power with honor. Additionally, the effect might still be in place, it was RAFOed.
   • This represents trying to condition a Vessel into being able to handle the power.
2. Dalinar might be a new thing in that he will not fully Ascended, but instead will Bond a Shard of Honor that will be merged with Stormfather.
   • Corollary: This could possibly allow him to reinterpret the Intent more easily (e.g. Unity).
   • This would be trying to get around limitation on Shards via Indirect Ascension.
3. Lift specifically asked to stay the same " I want to stay me. Not become someone else. ", and while she thought it would meant she won't grow older, I would posit that instead Cultivation specifically made changes that will allow her Cognitive and Spiritual aspect to be fortified against external influence (e.g. Intent of Shard).
   • Corollary: I would posit also that not only she creates Lifelight, she specifically creates Liftlight, e.g. Lifelight aligned more with her (e.g. what Lifelight would be, had Lift held Shard). We know that holding Lights has various cognitive effects, so it would make sense to grant her ability to create Light that would not do that to her.
   • This would trying to get around Intent by fortifying Cognitive and Spiritual Aspects of the Vessel-to-be.

TL;DR: I argue that Cultivation is attempting to cultivate process of becoming a Shard in-order to create sort of Shard 2.0, one where Vessel is less influenced and bound by Intent. Each of Dalinar, Lift and Taravangian represent different approach to this problem.

That makes sense. Taravangian on very emotional days learnt how to control his emotions and even act in opposition to what he felt. That was especially visible in RoW, when he was mostly dumb, yet he planned and figured out a way to kill Rayse, which was very successful despite his emotional limitations. Till this time I thought his emotional state was to align him with Odium's intent, to create a connection sufficient enough for him to Ascend. But you're right, it much more than than. And we even saw that after his Ascension, when the Shard is telling him to "burn and destroy" but he remains in control and starts to "plan how to save them all".

I'm not so convinced about Dalinar and this Indirect Ascension. If that's the way Dalinar would control a Shard, he would be very limited and he wouldn't be a Shard at all, no future vision, no control over Shard's power, no investing etc - at least we've never seen Dalinar use the Shard like that. I think Cultivation wants to reforge the Honor Shard under a different intent, so it wouldn't be just about Oaths, but more - something like Unity. And for this she needs a Vessel that has a vastly different view on Honor than Tanavest had. Possibly, a long term plan is for Dalinar to Ascend to both Honor and Odium, merging those two Shards together - Cultivation herself said that Dalinar belongs to both Odium and Honor, he would have a great connection to both of those Shards, great understanding of their intent and great control over them too - he is proving this already with his rejection of Odium in OB and life full of Honor. This would ultimately resolve the Odium's problem for good.

Spoiler

Stromeng

In Oathbringer Cultivation calls Dalinar Son of Honor and Son of Odium. Why? Does he Connected to both Shards and technically can be a Vessel for Odium.

Also, why Cultivation says it'd be good for her to have a part of Dalinar inside of her? Is it important?

Brandon Sanderson

This is partially RAFO territory, but let's just say that Cultivation takes the long view on someone--and to her, Dalinar represents both the the best and worst of both Honor and Odium.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

And Lift it's a weird one as always. For her it might not only be about control over a Shard, but rather learn that change is necessary. This is something Lift struggles with. But with her current "unchanging" nature and her future realization of the need for change, she might be able to control Cultivation far better.

However I'm not sure why Koravellium Avast would want to make a replacement Vessel for herself. This is something I have never figured out. Does she not want to be a Shard anymore? Did she lose control over the Shard (I don't think so, she seems very in control)? She is a dragon, she might be better at resisting Intent than humans, so I don't think it's just about Intent. Maybe she saw in the future her own death and she wanted to have somebody there to pick up Cultivation to prevent Splintering from happening? I can't find any good reason for why she would want to make a replacement Vessel for Cultivation, but I think that's the case with Lift. We still know too little about Cultivation.

[Quantus he/him]

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

However I'm not sure why Koravellium Avast would want to make a replacement Vessel for herself. This is something I have never figured out. Does she not want to be a Shard anymore? Did she lose control over the Shard (I don't think so, she seems very in control)? She is a dragon, she might be better at resisting Intent than humans, so I don't think it's just about Intent. Maybe she saw in the future her own death and she wanted to have somebody there to pick up Cultivation to prevent Splintering from happening? I can't find any good reason for why she would want to make a replacement Vessel for Cultivation, but I think that's the case with Lift. We still know too little about Cultivation.

She went into immortality with a mate.  Now that mate is both dead and avenged, a quite retirement (or at least some new chapter in life) would make sense.  Godhood is a responsibility whether they like it or not, she may not want to keep the burden forever (and alone).

Also, if I'm right about the hidden meaning of the Queen Tsa story, she's fascinated by mortal life and wants to experience it.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

However I'm not sure why Koravellium Avast would want to make a replacement Vessel for herself. This is something I have never figured out. Does she not want to be a Shard anymore? Did she lose control over the Shard (I don't think so, she seems very in control)? She is a dragon, she might be better at resisting Intent than humans, so I don't think it's just about Intent. Maybe she saw in the future her own death and she wanted to have somebody there to pick up Cultivation to prevent Splintering from happening? I can't find any good reason for why she would want to make a replacement Vessel for Cultivation, but I think that's the case with Lift. We still know too little about Cultivation.

I agree with what @Quantus just said above, and I'd like to point out that Cultivation is also a Dragon, so she's immortal anyway. The loss of Tanavast, the stress of being forced to hide and try to protect a planet that's in an eternal war, and the emotional drain of it all may be enough for her to decide that being a Shard is not worth it, so she might just be setting the foundation for giving Roshar the best odds that she can manage and then leave quietly, passing the Shard onto someone else. Alternatively, she might have foreseen that the odds are high that she's going to die, and so is preparing another Vessel so Odium can't Splinter another Shard.

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not so convinced about Dalinar and this Indirect Ascension. If that's the way Dalinar would control a Shard, he would be very limited and he wouldn't be a Shard at all, no future vision, no control over Shard's power, no investing etc - at least we've never seen Dalinar use the Shard like that. I think Cultivation wants to reforge the Honor Shard under a different intent, so it wouldn't be just about Oaths, but more - something like Unity. And for this she needs a Vessel that has a vastly different view on Honor than Tanavest had. Possibly, a long term plan is for Dalinar to Ascend to both Honor and Odium, merging those two Shards together - Cultivation herself said that Dalinar belongs to both Odium and Honor, he would have a great connection to both of those Shards, great understanding of their intent and great control over them too - he is proving this already with his rejection of Odium in OB and life full of Honor. This would ultimately resolve the Odium's problem for good.

  Reveal hidden contents

Stromeng

In Oathbringer Cultivation calls Dalinar Son of Honor and Son of Odium. Why? Does he Connected to both Shards and technically can be a Vessel for Odium.

Also, why Cultivation says it'd be good for her to have a part of Dalinar inside of her? Is it important?

Brandon Sanderson

This is partially RAFO territory, but let's just say that Cultivation takes the long view on someone--and to her, Dalinar represents both the the best and worst of both Honor and Odium.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

Regarding Dalinar and his connections to both Honor and Odium, as you and the WoB say, that might be 'long-term' plan, which could easily mean decades or hundreds of years.
Personally I hope that never happens and it is only red-herring, we have already seen Ascension (both of person, and of CS) and dual Ascension in Mistborn. I would hope that Brandon comes up with something new and surprising.

Also, I think that this 'Indirect Ascension' would not be as limited as you say. We already saw CS take up Shard (Kelsier), and he was able to do quite a bit with the power, primary limitation being near inability to affect Physical Realm. Now, if someone happened to provide CS/spren with Connection to Physical Realm, e.g. via Nahel Bond, I think this CS with Shard would be able to act much more freely in PR. And their bondmate would also 'power-up' so to speak.

And we have already seen Dalinar force Stormfather to take actions, and use his powers against his will. If he were able to do that to Ascended Stormfather (possibly after strengthening/modifying the bond via Bondsmithing), Dalinar would be able to wield power on scale rivaling that of Shards without a lot of restrictions.

So I would say you could end up with something that is weaker in PR than full Shard, however this entity would also be able to use their powers with fewer limitations, which could potentially be quite an advantage.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

And Lift it's a weird one as always. For her it might not only be about control over a Shard, but rather learn that change is necessary. This is something Lift struggles with. But with her current "unchanging" nature and her future realization of the need for change, she might be able to control Cultivation far better.

However I'm not sure why Koravellium Avast would want to make a replacement Vessel for herself. This is something I have never figured out. Does she not want to be a Shard anymore? Did she lose control over the Shard (I don't think so, she seems very in control)? She is a dragon, she might be better at resisting Intent than humans, so I don't think it's just about Intent. Maybe she saw in the future her own death and she wanted to have somebody there to pick up Cultivation to prevent Splintering from happening? I can't find any good reason for why she would want to make a replacement Vessel for Cultivation, but I think that's the case with Lift. We still know too little about Cultivation.

Yeah, why would Koravellium search for her replacement is also something I have been struggling with. But I think @Quantus has a good point, she lost her husband, saw horrible destruction, and might possibly want to experience the one thing she could not as neither dragon nor Shard, mortality.

I could see her want to live out her days as mortal, and then pass to Beyond to hopefully reunite with Tanavast. If it is possible to intentionally 'Descend', she might be able to create mortal body for herself, after all, Tanavast setup a system that automatically creates bodies for Heralds, so it should be possible for her as well.

And in general I would point out that what is more in-line with Intent of Cultivation (wishing for change and shaping into desired form) than creating 'better' gods/Shard?

Edited June 13, 2023 by therunner

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

But I think @Quantus has a good point, she lost her husband, saw horrible destruction, and might possibly want to experience the one thing she could not as neither dragon nor Shard, mortality.

I could see her want to live out her days as mortal, and then pass to Beyond to hopefully reunite with Tanavast. If it is possible to intentionally 'Descend', she might be able to create mortal body for herself, after all, Tanavast setup a system that automatically creates bodies for Heralds, so it should be possible for her as well.

And in general I would point out that what is more in-line with Intent of Cultivation (wishing for change and shaping into desired form) than creating 'better' gods/Shard?

Can she willingly become mortal? I'd have thought she would be bound to being a Dragon by her very nature, and since her spiritweb is currently infused into a Shard, I doubt she can alter it.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Can she willingly become mortal? I'd have thought she would be bound to being a Dragon by her very nature, and since her spiritweb is currently infused into a Shard, I doubt she can alter it.

Shards were already shown to rewrite spiritwebs, so maybe? She would have to somehow do it while Descending though, as you point out Shard could interfere.

Alternatively, she could commit suicide, as Dragons are said to be ageless, not fully immortal.

Edited June 13, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

58 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Can she willingly become mortal? I'd have thought she would be bound to being a Dragon by her very nature, and since her spiritweb is currently infused into a Shard, I doubt she can alter it.

Agelessness - not without someone messing up with her spirit web - and she can't do that as a Shard. But a dragon is mortal - a dragon can be killed despite being ageless.

 

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

She went into immortality with a mate.  Now that mate is both dead and avenged, a quite retirement (or at least some new chapter in life) would make sense.  Godhood is a responsibility whether they like it or not, she may not want to keep the burden forever (and alone).

Yes, that's probably the only logical reason. 

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If it is possible to intentionally 'Descend', she might be able to create mortal body for herself, after all

She can give up the Shard and live (Kel did that), but this process would create the body like she had during her Ascension, I don't think she can make herself a new body just like that - she can't connect herself to that body as a Shard, and she still is connected to her previous body. Even if this was possible her spirit web would be coded to an ageless dragon. That wouldn't work without a different Shard intervention - or maybe Nightwatcher intervention at least.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And in general I would point out that what is more in-line with Intent of Cultivation (wishing for change and shaping into desired form) than creating 'better' gods/Shard?

Nothing to be fair  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also, I think that this 'Indirect Ascension' would not be as limited as you say. We already saw CS take up Shard (Kelsier), and he was able to do quite a bit with the power, primary limitation being near inability to affect Physical Realm. Now, if someone happened to provide CS/spren with Connection to Physical Realm, e.g. via Nahel Bond, I think this CS with Shard would be able to act much more freely in PR. And their bondmate would also 'power-up' so to speak.

If I understand you correctly, that Indirect Ascension would prevent Dalinar from full Ascension, and from losing his body. That would mean he can manage far less power than what a Shard can do. He would have control over less power than what was in the Well of Ascension. Compared to other Shard, he wouldn’t even count as one. He would be unable to oppose Shardic invasion on full scale with so little power available to him. 

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

She can give up the Shard and live (Kel did that), but this process would create the body like she had during her Ascension, I don't think she can make herself a new body just like that - she can't connect herself to that body as a Shard, and she still is connected to her previous body. Even if this was possible her spirit web would be coded to an ageless dragon. That wouldn't work without a different Shard intervention - or maybe Nightwatcher intervention at least.

Fair enough, I agree that that part is a bit more of a stretch.
Nightwatcher intervention is an interesting idea, question is if she has enough power. But her boon/bane systems seems to be modeled after dragon behavior, so maybe that is done on purpose.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nothing to be fair

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

If I understand you correctly, that Indirect Ascension would prevent Dalinar from full Ascension, and from losing his body.

Yes, he would be bonded (perhaps more strongly) to a Shard that is held by spren/CS.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

That would mean he can manage far less power than what a Shard can do. He would have control over less power than what was in the Well of Ascension. Compared to other Shard, he wouldn’t even count as one.

I disagree. We already see Dalinar act as representative of a Shard, and to actually force the bearer of the largest remnant of Honor (Stormfather) to do as he wishes, and to sometimes take over as the driver of those acts (this with Stormfathers consent).

He would not count as Shard yes, but I think he would have possibly control over more than what was in Well of Ascension, albeit not all the time. It would be sort of sliding scale, the more power of his bonded Shard he access, the more bound he is by Intent, but the very fact that he doesn't hold the Shard would partially shield him.

I mean, even books say that Stormfather and Dalinar are something new "Your power, my will., which sounds along the lines I am describing. I would position Dalinar somewhere between Avatar and Full Shard in power.

Quote

He would be unable to oppose Shardic invasion on full scale with so little power available to him. 

Disagree again. Stormfather as the bearer of the Shard would be able to do that 'easily', albeit less effectively. We already saw that in SH, where Kel resisted Ruin.

Additionally, in TLM Avatar caused quite a bit of trouble for Sazed, and those are also much less powerful.

Edited June 14, 2023 by therunner

[External Gills he/him]

I have a similar theory that Cultivation is prepping the Nightwatcher to eventually take over Endowment, with her giving boons but always with a curse attached. If the Shard's Intent is to give, you can balance that out by making it also give a bad thing  and people will self regulate in how much they are willing to receive.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I disagree. We already see Dalinar act as representative of a Shard, and to actually force the bearer of the largest remnant of Honor (Stormfather) to do as he wishes, and to sometimes take over as the driver of those acts (this with Stormfathers consent).

He would not count as Shard yes, but I think he would have possibly control over more than what was in Well of Ascension, albeit not all the time. It would be sort of sliding scale, the more power of his bonded Shard he access, the more bound he is by Intent, but the very fact that he doesn't hold the Shard would partially shield him.

I mean, even books say that Stormfather and Dalinar are something new "Your power, my will., which sounds along the lines I am describing. I would position Dalinar somewhere between Avatar and Full Shard in power.

He wouldn't have a direct control over Shard's power, only indirect, limited in many ways. He can do a lot with it, more than a normal Bondsmith, but not even close to what a Shard can. Despite his power, Stromfather was not able to prevent Odium from breaking into Dalinar's visions twice. Dalinar has some control over Stormfather, but even Dalinar can't order him to stop blowing winds, as that would potentially damage Stormfather. They're walking on a thin line. He would never control more power than what was in the Well, because his mind isn't expanded enough to reach that power, and that amount of power would vaporize his body. He can command Stormfather to use more power, yes, but that's indirect, and limited by Stormfather's nature.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Disagree again. Stormfather as the bearer of the Shard would be able to do that 'easily', albeit less effectively. We already saw that in SH, where Kel resisted Ruin.

Additionally, in TLM Avatar caused quite a bit of trouble for Sazed, and those are also much less powerful.

That's the Shardic invasion I'm talking about. Autonomy was directly involved, she blinded Sazed. With Dalinar and Honor the way you describe it. she would have even less trouble. Dalinar's mind isn't expanded enough to control enough power even indirectly, to rival a Shard's full power thrown against him. Not without full Ascention. 

I see potential in your theory, but I don't think this can last for long. I don't think Dalinar would be able to resist full scale Shardic invasion without directly controlling Honor's power.

[therunner he/him]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He wouldn't have a direct control over Shard's power, only indirect, limited in many ways. He can do a lot with it, more than a normal Bondsmith, but not even close to what a Shard can. Despite his power, Stromfather was not able to prevent Odium from breaking into Dalinar's visions twice.

Stormfather however is also explicitly not a full Shard. He only holds the largest remnant + Cognitive Shadows of Tanavast.
Of course he is not on level with Odium.

I bet if Honor was reforged, then Stormfather could stop Odium from breaking into visions with ease.

Edit: And I forgot that Stormfather was able to resist Odium from breaking into vision, if only for some time. So despite not being full Shard, he can temporarily resist full Shard.

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar has some control over Stormfather, but even Dalinar can't order him to stop blowing winds, as that would potentially damage Stormfather.

Dalinar already did make him stop blowing winds, if only temporarily.

Quote

They're walking on a thin line. He would never control more power than what was in the Well, because his mind isn't expanded enough to reach that power, and that amount of power would vaporize his body. He can command Stormfather to use more power, yes, but that's indirect, and limited by Stormfather's nature.

Dalinar has already shown capacity beyond most when he somehow managed to Connect Kaladin with spiritweb of his deceased brother. Brother he has never seen might I add.
And he did it by acting through Stormfather, and notably he was speaking in the same letters Stormfather does.

When acting like that he is already showing those capabilites, and don't forget that spiritwebs of spren and their Knights are slowly merging as Oaths progress.
Who is to say what 5th Oath Bondsmith bonded to Shard could do, and how it would affect their Cognitive self.

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's the Shardic invasion I'm talking about. Autonomy was directly involved, she blinded Sazed. With Dalinar and Honor the way you describe it. she would have even less trouble. Dalinar's mind isn't expanded enough to control enough power even indirectly, to rival a Shard's full power thrown against him. Not without full Ascention.

Dalinar + Honor would already be much more equipped to resist Autonomy than Sazed was. Elendel was couple of minutes from destruction, and only fluke of events saved it. Sure there are hints that Sazed was not as blind as he acted, however, Honor+Dalinar would have been able to act much more directly to counter Autonomy.

Not to say they are more powerful than Sazed, of course not. But they are free to act where he simply isn't.

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I see potential in your theory, but I don't think this can last for long. I don't think Dalinar would be able to resist full scale Shardic invasion without directly controlling Honor's power.

Agree to disagree then.

And I would just stress than in the theory Shard is held by Stormfather, who could act as full Shard in both CR and SR. It is only PR where he would be limited, however Dalinar would provide the Connection to PR needed to act. Like Avatar, but more so.

And per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/484/#e15824), there are ways to work around the limitation of not having link to PR, and I would say having Bondsmith is one of those ways.
So there would be full Shard (Stormfather), with access to PR (through Bondsmith), and the Bondsmith can leverage some or possibly all of the Shard powers temporarily (like we are already seeing Dalinar do in Connecting Kaladin and accepting his Oath, on Thaylen Fields, etc.).

Edited June 14, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I bet if Honor was reforged, then Stormfather could stop Odium from breaking into visions with ease.

I'm not sure, Stormfather isn't a Vessel.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Edit: And I forgot that Stormfather was able to resist Odium from breaking into vision, if only for some time. So despite not being full Shard, he can temporarily resist full Shard.

For a moment isn't the same as stopping it fully. He is unable to fully resist the intrusion of another Shard. He can't do the same as Vin and Ati. 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Dalinar already did make him stop blowing winds, if only temporarily.

RoW ch 71? He didn't. He moved against the wind, while the Highstorm continued forward. He took some control over parts of it, blowing winds on his own, yes, but this might be because of his relation to Stormfather, just like Navani is aware of the Tower mechanism and networks, she felt them, was moving within Urithiru like Dalinar within Highstorm, and maybe even she can turn on and off fabrials in the Tower herself. I think this is similar for all Bondsmiths. If so, this was previously locked for Stormfather's Bondsmith.

And this is very dangerous. Dalinar shouldn't do this. Stormfather clearly warned him against taking actions like this. RoW ch 107:

Quote

We need to give them more time, Dalinar said.

We cannot, the Stormfather said. Respect his frailty, and don’t force me on this, Dalinar! You could break things you do not understand, the consequences of which could be catastrophic.

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Dalinar has already shown capacity beyond most when he somehow managed to Connect Kaladin with spiritweb of his deceased brother. Brother he has never seen might I add.
And he did it by acting through Stormfather, and notably he was speaking in the same letters Stormfather does.

That's Bondsmithing, he was riding the storm, which provided his mind access to that location and connection to Kaladin. He reached into SR and forged a connection. I wouldn't say this is because of his bond with Honor, rather this is Bondsmith unchained in action.

Accepting Kaladin's Ideal was reaching into Honor's pieces.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Dalinar + Honor would already be much more equipped to resist Autonomy than Sazed was. Elendel was couple of minutes from destruction, and only fluke of events saved it. Sure there are hints that Sazed was not as blind as he acted, however, Honor+Dalinar would have been able to act much more directly to counter Autonomy.

Not to say they are more powerful than Sazed, of course not. But they are free to act where he simply isn't.

I'm not talking about acting against Shard's pawns, I'm talking power vs power. Sazed was blinded by Autonomy's pure power. Better example, Ruin and Kel/Vin fighting. They were throwing pure power at each other. This is what I'm talking about. At best, Dalinar and Stormfather would be able to resist only as long as Stormfather was able to resist Odium intrusion into visions. Without Dalinar's direct Ascension, I don't think they can do better.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And I would just stress than in the theory Shard is held by Stormfather, who could act as full Shard in both CR and SR. It is only PR where he would be limited, however Dalinar would provide the Connection to PR needed to act. Like Avatar, but more so.

Yes, but Stormfather isn't Honor's Vessel. He's Honor's Sliver and his Cognitive Shadow, not a Vessel. Sure he can do more, but is still bound by his nature of the Storm. 

[therunner he/him]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not sure, Stormfather isn't a Vessel.

Yet.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

For a moment isn't the same as stopping it fully. He is unable to fully resist the intrusion of another Shard. He can't do the same as Vin and Ati.

Again, yet. The fact remains that he can resist for appreciable amount of time, something which is not possible for really any other non-Shard entity as far as we know.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

RoW ch 71? He didn't. He moved against the wind, while the Highstorm continued forward. He took some control over parts of it, blowing winds on his own, yes, but this might be because of his relation to Stormfather, just like Navani is aware of the Tower mechanism and networks, she felt them, was moving within Urithiru like Dalinar within Highstorm, and maybe even she can turn on and off fabrials in the Tower herself. I think this is similar for all Bondsmiths. If so, this was previously locked for Stormfather's Bondsmith.

Fair enough, we will see.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's Bondsmithing, he was riding the storm, which provided his mind access to that location and connection to Kaladin. He reached into SR and forged a connection. I wouldn't say this is because of his bond with Honor, rather this is Bondsmith unchained in action.

Bondsmithing requires physical contact, he did not have that. However, Stormfather did, which again shows that for a lot of purposes Radiant and their Spren are as one.

He reached out directly into SR, something that was not shown by any other Bondsmith yet. Even Ishar seems to requires some measure of physical connection.

And he still Connected Kaladin with his dead brother. That is feat beyond anything we have really seen.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Accepting Kaladin's Ideal was reaching into Honor's pieces.

Exactly, in that moment Dalinar acted with power and authority of Shard, despite not holding any remnant of it.
Stormfather holds part of Shard, not Dalinar, and yet Dalinar could act as if he was Shard.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but Stormfather isn't Honor's Vessel. He's Honor's Sliver and his Cognitive Shadow, not a Vessel. Sure he can do more, but is still bound by his nature of the Storm. 

No, he is not just Sliver and Cognitive Shadow, he is something more. He is largest Splinter of Honor, one made intentionally (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5991).

Stormfather could Ascend, if situation was right, and Honor was reforged. And then Dalinar would be Bonded to a Shard, and could leverage some of its power in ways yet unseen, as he has already demonstrated.

Edited June 14, 2023 by therunner