SA5 Chapters 10 & 11

[BinarySecond]

A part of Sureblood lives on! 

 

Musicspren confirmed in book now?

[The Stick]

Wow.

Well at least we know Mishram is most definitely not friendly. I wonder how she can manifest beads in Shadesmar.

Abidi's remark makes it seem like many Lightweavers could once substantiate, but they swore the skill off. I could see this as one of the many things leading to the recreance.

What on Roshar is the Grand Knell, where the Current runs where a god died. Do we think that this is the actual site of Honor's splintering, or where an old magic god died.

Kal's chapter today makes me think that his really funny moments in the library and telling off the librarian could be progress towards a fifth oath, to protect the mocked and scorned. 

Finally, I don't get how Odium managed to get a whole invasion fleet in Shadesmar, if it was Rayse or Taravangian, and how he even hopes to get them to PR, assuming Oathgate spren are all loyal to sibling.

 

[alder24]

Syl learning to write and gifting Kaladin the Way of Kings was adorable . I have to agree, there are a lot of signs of Sylladin happening and a discussion about Syl’s "Chull" was a bit unexpected and weird, but also very expected and fitting to Syl. I have very mixed feelings about this ship. It was nice to see Kaladin standing up to an evil librarian using his therapeutic skills. It's clear there will be a lot of therapy sessions in WaT.

It’s interesting that substantiation, as Abidi named it, was a known ability but was unavailable to Lightweavers before. Was it enabled by her double bond, or by Honor’s restrictions on Surges fading? What with those beads conveniently appearing in Shallan’s hands? 

Finally, Adolin had a fair fight with a Fused and won. It was satisfying but it’s a pity he didn’t kill him. 

And we definitely know that BAM is very, very angry about her imprisonment, as expected. It’s probably not a good idea to free her, but at least she sounds a bit sane (more sane than I expected her to be after more than 2000 years in a gem). I think that puts a few theories of BAM being a voice/Wind/Stormfaker to rest - she’s totally different from all of them. 

Which god died at the Grand Knell? Honor? Adonalsium? Someone else? Where is this place? From the last week's chapters Drehy said "As long as we stay at forty-eight degrees from the baseline, we should be right on target" and looking at the map, Lasting Integrity is south of Azimir, which puts the baseline, the direction the compass is pointing at, somewhere towards northwest. Could it be pointing towards the Origin?  

And we know how the war in Azir will look like - it will be fought in CR. I bet Notum and Honorspren ships will be crucial in this conflict.

 

12 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

A part of Sureblood lives on! 

 

Musicspren confirmed in book now?

Oh yeah, definitely! Makes a lot os sense. Why did I think it's the Musicspren Notum was riding on...

 

4 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Finally, I don't get how Odium managed to get a whole invasion fleet in Shadesmar, if it was Rayse or Taravangian, and how he even hopes to get them to PR, assuming Oathgate spren are all loyal to sibling.

It had to be Rayse. It's probably related to the Moelach presence in the Horneaters peaks (we would know if the Horneater novel was out). Jah Keved is under Odium's control for weeks now, which was enough for Rayse to set up this whole invasion plan. Taravangian is Odium for a day or two, it's far, far too short for the army to gather in the peaks and swim the entire way from there to Azir. Abidi might not even be aware that he's under new management.

They might want to Enlighten one of those spren (Sja-Anat is near in Emul) which would allow them to use the Oathgate. If not, they can maybe try to kill them with anti-Stormlight. Both possibilities would be devastating for the coalition, breaking the much needed connection between Azir and Urithiru and stranding the Alethi army in Emul, preventing them from being relocated to other fronts.

[Jenet]

27 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

A part of Sureblood lives on! 

 

Musicspren confirmed in book now?

YES!! I had tears in my eyes reading that whole chapter. Most importantly because I am so impressed with Sanderson's understanding of horses. Musicspren! Rhythm!
I am a riding instructor. My husband does horsecack combat like jousting and sword fights. And this chapter resonates like crazy. Like on a cognitive realm for real crazy. 

In riding and horse training we have something called the training scales. The most basic level in it is called Rhythm.  So, basically, if you haven't got the rhythm right, you cannot get the communication with the horse right. There is a bit of controversy when it comes to competition ridning nowadays, and the riders that are attacked in social media for being abusive do not understand the rhythm aspect of riding, and that's the reason they get it wrong. Short version.

My daily work is about explaining this to people. How the rhythm is important. How you must feel the rhythm first, and keep it, together with the horse, or else you will not get the connection. And here comes Sanderson explaining this in such an emotional and poetic way. 

Often I tell students to hum a tune while they ride, to try to feel the rhythm, because music is such a good way for humans to really pay attention to the rhythms.

And Adolin half swording the fused!! That means holding your hand on the blad to control it while you sneak the point in between the parts of the armor. This is a real thing. And not many know about it.

It is such a relief to have a favourite author and realize that he knows his stuff.

Hat. Off.

 

 

[+mdross81 he/him]

9 minutes ago, The Stick said:

What on Roshar is the Grand Knell, where the Current runs where a god died. Do we think that this is the actual site of Honor's splintering, or where an old magic god died.

I suspect it is the actual location where Honor was splintered.

And I’m just going to drop here my thinking that the Current might be related to the “unseen winds” referenced several times in the earlier books.

Without rehashing my whole earlier post about this (link below), I’ve theorized that the lines about unseen/unfelt winds are evidence of waves of Honor’s power emanating from the Spiritual Realm (I called them Spiritual winds in my post, building on the line about “the winds that men must feel”, but Current would work too).

And at various times Kaladin, by acting honorably, attunes his heart to Honor’s power (perhaps to the rhythm/tone of the “Grand Knell” given that a knell is a term for the ringing of a bell) and is then aided by the wind.

Notable examples of this include the Battle of the Tower (WoK 68):

Quote

Living Heralds above, Teft thought, watching Kaladin fight. Just moments ago, the lad had looked near death, skin a dull grey, hands shaking. Now he was a shining whirlwind, a storm wielding a spear.

…

The bridgemen gathered around Teft, amazed. His wounded arm didn’t seem to hurt as much as it should. “He’s like a part of the wind itself,” Drehy said. “Pulled down and given life. Not a man at all. A spren.”

Also when Kal helps Adolin in the duel in WoR chapter 57:

Quote

Moments. He needed moments.

The wind began to blow around him. …

Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack – didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.

Instinct … then something deeper … guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt – impossibly – that he could have dogged just as well if his eyes had been closed.

The Shardbearers cursed, trying again and again. Kaladin heard the judge say something, but was too absorbed in the fight to pay attention. The crowd was growing louder. He leaped one attack, then stepped just to the side of another.

You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite …

Wondering if maybe these moments involve Kaladin accessing the Current from the Grand Knell.

Full theory is here if interested:

 

[Windrunner22]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It’s interesting that substantiation, as Abidi named it, was a known ability but was unavailable to Lightweavers before. Was it enabled by her double bond, or by Honor’s restrictions on Surges fading? What with those beads conveniently appearing in Shallan’s hands? 

This is making me think about what Kelek said earlier, that there used to be rules against imbricated bonds. Perhaps these rules are what Abidi is referencing when he says substantiation has been “sworn off”. I think a double bond could be required for substantiation.

 

Im fascinated by this Abidi character. Last week he wants lightweaver blood and this week he gives us some substantiation info. Is there an Investiture related reason he’s so interested in Lightweavers? Or does he just have an ancient grudge against them?

Im also interested in his title, The Monarch. Is he actually an ancient singer monarch turned Fused, fighting for thousands of years to reclaim his kingdom? 

[Etedbert he/him]

30 minutes ago, The Stick said:

 

Finally, I don't get how Odium managed to get a whole invasion fleet in Shadesmar, if it was Rayse or Taravangian, and how he even hopes to get them to PR, assuming Oathgate spren are all loyal to sibling.

 

another possibility would be an ambush in concert with a ground assault. If they put enough pressure on Azimir in the physical realm, Dalinar could go to back up the Radiants defending, and the invasion force could come through his perpendicularity

[AquaRegia he/him]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

1) Syl learning to write and gifting Kaladin the Way of Kings...

2) ... a known ability but was unavailable to Lightweavers before. Was it enabled by her double bond...?

1)  New guess at the in-world author of Knights of Wind and Truth: Syl.

2)  OK, from now on, I will mentally replace the name "Shallan" with "Shallene".

[teknopathetic he/him]

 I KNEW the horse would fly without a radiant! It was foreshadowed so strongly haha

[basement_boi he/him]

20 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

2)  OK, from now on, I will mentally replace the name "Shallan" with "Shallene".

Dude that’s actually hilarious!
Does this mean that Shallan will be more stable now that she doesn’t have any free electrons… I mean free spren bonds?

Edited September 2, 2024 by basement_boi

[Ashbringer he/him]

So, uh… Syladin somehow just got a lot more likely.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

Dude that’s actually hilarious!
Does this mean that Shallan will be more stable now that she doesn’t have any free electrons… I mean free spren bonds?

Maybe... but, I mean, we don't know she's not capable of forming a triple bond.  Shallyne?

[Acolyte of Radiance]

42 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

So, uh… Syladin somehow just got a lot more likely.

Yeah,that was strange

[dvoraen]

Regarding the Grand Knell: the fabrial detecting it was from the ancient Radiants, courtesy of the Sibling, and it seems really unlikely to me that they had a means of attuning it to a source of Investiture that was not integrated with Roshar (i.e., any Shard that wasn't Honor/Odium/Cultivation). So given that, I think it's most likely that it's the site of Honor's Splintering. Plus, an epigraph talks about Urithiru being built in the place "closest to Honor" which is... nearbyish?

About the fleet, that's clearly a Rayse thing. The sequence of events with Cultivation's perpendicularity, the Voidspren increasing their control of the Shadesmar seas, all predate Taravangian's Ascension. That said, I'm sure Taravangian has modified that scheme or expanded it, since it's still in motion.

Lastly, I'd also say it's very likely that Sja-anat is going to be ordered to the Azimir Oathgate to do what she did to the Kholinar Oathgate. I VERY MUCH want to see an exchange between Sja-anat and T-Odium.

Edited September 2, 2024 by dvoraen

[Etedbert he/him]

22 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Regarding the Grand Knell: the fabrial detecting it was from the ancient Radiants, courtesy of the Sibling, and it seems really unlikely to me that they had a means of attuning it to a source of Investiture that was not integrated with Roshar (i.e., any Shard that wasn't Honor/Odium/Cultivation). So given that, I think it's most likely that it's the site of Honor's Splintering. Plus, an epigraph talks about Urithiru being built in the place "closest to Honor" which is... nearbyish?

I think one issue is that the compass doesn’t point towards Urithiru, they’re using the angle relative to their position to ascertain direction. There being multiple of these ancient fabrials locked away in the tower makes me think it isn’t honor who is the god whose death formed the grand knell. Honor was protractedly dying around the time of the sealing of BAM, after which the sibling locked Urithiru down and Honor was splintered.

multiple of these compasses would have to have been made in what seems to be a very short gap of time for them to point to the spot Honor died.

More likely I think that the Grand Knell is a distant point in the cognitive realm, outside the rosharan subastral, marking where Adonalsium was shattered.

If it was simply a compass pointing to Urithiru, Drehy wouldn’t have to have done the angle mapping, and he’d be much more sure of where they were going. Also, if Honor died at Urithiru and the compass pointed to Urithiru, the sibling probably would have said “it points back here” and not creepy crap about the death of a god. (Also, the sibling saying god, and not honor also seems like it isn’t honor’s death spot)

Edited September 2, 2024 by Etedbert

[Diomedes]

Musicspren was a crazy chapter. Imagining Gallant dreaming of flying and being bonded to a Musicspren was awesome. 

Adolin`s plot in WaT will take place around Azir. He will probably stay to defend against the invasion. 

Also the throw backs to Way of Kings are getting more numerous. The cover was already referencing the WoK cover and now Syl is handing Kal literally a copy of the in-world book. I guess I really have to reread the book before November 

Edited September 2, 2024 by Diomedes

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, The Stick said:

Finally, I don't get how Odium managed to get a whole invasion fleet in Shadesmar, if it was Rayse or Taravangian, and how he even hopes to get them to PR, assuming Oathgate spren are all loyal to sibling.

Elsecaller Fused.

 

[Subvisual Haze]

Didn't we already see Sja Anat corrupt one of the oathgate spren at Kholinar?  Could have used that one or corrupted another gate.

[Etedbert he/him]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Elsecaller Fused.

 

The Fuswd don’t correlate to Radiant Orders that way. The Nex-Im are the Fused with access to Transportation, but we haven’t seen them be able to use it to move between realms. Lezian (The pursuer) only ever moves within the physical realm, even when he is running away from Kaladin during the occupation of Urithiru.

It’s more likely that the character’s assumption that the army came through Cultivation’s perpendicularity is correct.

[The Stick]

While I know it logically has to be Rayse Odium who ordered this, I am just having a hard time believing that. Subtle is one of the words not in Rayse's vocabulary, and plus, why would he possibly need to send an invasion fleet through Shadesmar if at that point he already had the Oathgates at Urithiru and Vyre.

[+mdross81 he/him]

1 hour ago, Etedbert said:

More likely I think that the Grand Knell is a distant point in the cognitive realm, outside the rosharan subastral, marking where Adonalsium was shattered.

This is a really intriguing idea. If true it’d be cool to see different compasses on different Shardworlds given the variety of technological development and materials available. 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, The Stick said:

While I know it logically has to be Rayse Odium who ordered this, I am just having a hard time believing that. Subtle is one of the words not in Rayse's vocabulary, and plus, why would he possibly need to send an invasion fleet through Shadesmar if at that point he already had the Oathgates at Urithiru and Vyre.

His attack on Thaylen was subtle and almost unexpected, wasn't it? Dalinar barely managed to figure out what's going on. Not to mention his attack on Urithiru was totally unexpected and subtle. That's very Rayse-like. 

And why attacking from Shadesmar? It's unexpected of course! New Radiants don't realize the importance of CR, they don't have any forces present there, Honorspren fleed is grounded - CR is a free real estate for Odium. And they couldn't use Vyre and other Oathgates earlier, because the collision could have locked the gates on the other side (I think they did it in the end) and the Oathgates were suppressed during the occupation (they used Voidlight to power them, it's possible they could only connect to corrupted gate at Kholinar). Moreover, Odium wanted Dalinar's troops to be stuck at Emul, to distract them from everything that was going on in Urithiru, while avoiding being caught by Dalinar's scouts, which made amassing an army at the Tower problematic. It's entirely possible that Rayse planned a two front assault, one from CR, the other from Urithiru gates, but it failed, yet his army was already in position in CR, so why waste them and do nothing? Taravangian couldn't have organized everything from scratch in just one day.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, Etedbert said:

I think one issue is that the compass doesn’t point towards Urithiru, they’re using the angle relative to their position to ascertain direction. There being multiple of these ancient fabrials locked away in the tower makes me think it isn’t honor who is the god whose death formed the grand knell. Honor was protractedly dying around the time of the sealing of BAM, after which the sibling locked Urithiru down and Honor was splintered.

multiple of these compasses would have to have been made in what seems to be a very short gap of time for them to point to the spot Honor died.

More likely I think that the Grand Knell is a distant point in the cognitive realm, outside the rosharan subastral, marking where Adonalsium was shattered.

If it was simply a compass pointing to Urithiru, Drehy wouldn’t have to have done the angle mapping, and he’d be much more sure of where they were going. Also, if Honor died at Urithiru and the compass pointed to Urithiru, the sibling probably would have said “it points back here” and not creepy crap about the death of a god. (Also, the sibling saying god, and not honor also seems like it isn’t honor’s death spot)

Personally, I also think that the Grand Knell may be where Ambition died, not Ado or Honor.

Don’t have a ton of reason, but it would be nice to know more about it. And we know Ambition specifically died somewhere away from Threnody, whereas Ado presumably just died on Yolen.

[teknopathetic he/him]

7 hours ago, The Stick said:

Wow.

Well at least we know Mishram is most definitely not friendly. I wonder how she can manifest beads in Shadesmar.

 

 

It’s odd. If Mishram has figured out that Shallan is trying to release her (or find her), why would Mishram be so obviously antagonistic?

You’d think she’s pretend to be chill. This is almost like beads face is trying to get Shallan to not release Mishrim. 
 

Maybe Mishram is mad with hate from being conscious in there for so long. But at the same time, she said the one thing she shouldn’t say if she wanted to be released. 

Edited September 2, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Ashbringer he/him]

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It’s odd. If Mishram has figured out that Shallan is trying to release her (or find her), why would Mishram be so obviously antagonistic?

You’d think she’s pretend to be chill. This is almost like beads face is trying to get Shallan to not release Mishrim. 
 

Maybe Mishram is mad with hate from being conscious in there for so long. But at the same time, she said the one thing she shouldn’t say if she wanted to be released. 

Could be another mist spirit scenario, where that’s not actually BAM. 

I had thought that BAM wouldn’t necessarily be consious, and this might just be her thoughts around the time of her binding.