Wind and Truth: Chapters 7, 8, & 9

[Jofwu he/him]

Discussion/reaction thread for chapters 7, 8, and 9. You can find this week's chapters here: https://reactormag.com/read-wind-and-truth-by-brandon-sanderson-chapters-7-8-and-9/

[king of nowhere]

really, I would like to see adolin stand up on his own against a fused. he's more than skilled enough for it.

[Goatbringer he/him]

I'm thrilled that so many events that are usually "late book" material are happening up top. Shallan saying the Fourth Ideal, Wit giving his customary advice... all within the first ten chapters. 

Getting the feeling that this entire book is going to be one big Sanderlanche.

[Knight Oblivion]

How many oaths is Shallan on at this point? The world may never know. 

[Master Silver]

1 hour ago, Knight Oblivion said:

How many oaths is Shallan on at this point? The world may never know. 

I think that this must be at least oath number four. Life before death... then I am terrified. Followed by: I killed my father. Followed by: I killed my mother. Followed by I killed my spren. What we heard today. But it is possible that she has re-sworn the truth she told to Testament. This truth was a deeper fuller truth, something a child is more likely to do. So I think she is at 4 with Pattern and 2 with Testament. Shallan also seems to have reincorporated Radiant (ironically because Radiant wasn't capable enough). 

 

Other things that we found out. Kaladin didn't write this book. Syl is growing as a person. And I am convinced that Reshadium are going to grow wings. Adolin being an edge dancer without oaths and riding a Pegasus would be well earned. 

[Texside he/him/his]

57 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Other things that we found out. Kaladin didn't write this book. Syl is growing as a person. And I am convinced that Reshadium are going to grow wings. Adolin being an edge dancer without oaths and riding a Pegasus would be well earned. 

I admit I've been puzzling out how can Gallant become a flying horse full time since this morning.

[coolsnow7]

Well, Radiant is Chana. We’ll have to wait to see if she’s a projection of Shallan’s mom or Shallan herself, though I’m feeling even better than I already was about “Shallan = Chana” theories.

[Isilel]

17 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

 I’m feeling even better than I already was about “Shallan = Chana” theories.

 

Shouldn't Kelek have recognised her, though? Or noticed/sensed some resemblance at least?

And if Venli  could detect and track the souls of the Fused by looking into the Cognitive, shouldn't the same work for Heralds as well? Like, Jasnah should have seen something seriously weird about ShaChana's soul when soulcasting around her, ditto the other Lightweavers.

 

[Dofurion]

20 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I think that this must be at least oath number four. Life before death... then I am terrified. Followed by: I killed my father. Followed by: I killed my mother. Followed by I killed my spren. What we heard today. But it is possible that she has re-sworn the truth she told to Testament. This truth was a deeper fuller truth, something a child is more likely to do. So I think she is at 4 with Pattern and 2 with Testament. Shallan also seems to have reincorporated Radiant (ironically because Radiant wasn't capable enough). 

 

Other things that we found out. Kaladin didn't write this book. Syl is growing as a person. And I am convinced that Reshadium are going to grow wings. Adolin being an edge dancer without oaths and riding a Pegasus would be well earned. 

Since we've been told so far that the mechanics shown in the RPG are canon, Shallan's truths have only affected Pattern as her relationship with Testament is put on hold until their ideals are equal, and from then on any truth she tells will serve both Sprens.

Quote

Though incredibly uncommon, it’s theoretically possible to bond multiple Radiant spren—either two of the same type, or even more uncommonly, of different types (allowing you to join multiple orders). While this game’s default rules only allow each character to join one Radiant path, you and your GM can make an exception if it fits the story. For each spren bond, you must speak and maintain new oaths as described below.

Same Type of Spren. If you’re bonding a second spren of the same type as your existing spren bond, you don’t need to choose your existing Ideal talents a second time, but you must once again speak the Ideals in a unique way under new circumstances, reflecting how you’ve changed since you swore the oaths a previous time. To do so, begin with the goal “Speak the First Ideal” and complete it like you did previously, progressing through the Second and later Ideals until you reach an Ideal you haven’t yet spoken. From that point on, any higher Ideals you swear can count toward all your spren bonds of that type—though each spren must accept the words.

You don’t gain additional powers from bonding with two or more spren of the same type, with one exception: once you complete the goal “Speak the Third Ideal,” you can summon two of your spren who accepted those Words, allowing you to dual-wield Radiant Shardblades, and you can summon both of them using a single Interact action.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Shouldn't Kelek have recognised her, though? Or noticed/sensed some resemblance at least?

Yes, they can feel each other to some extent. RoW ch 79 epigraphs:

Quote

The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent.

 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

And if Venli  could detect and track the souls of the Fused by looking into the Cognitive, shouldn't the same work for Heralds as well? Like, Jasnah should have seen something seriously weird about ShaChana's soul when soulcasting around her, ditto the other Lightweavers.

Not necessarily - they can hide in CR and look like a normal soul. RoW ch 47:

Quote

“We need to find him,” Jasnah said.
“We must search Shadesmar,” Ivory said. “In this world, men can hide easily—but their souls shine out to us on the other side.”
“Unless someone knows how to hide them.”

 

 

59 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Since we've been told so far that the mechanics shown in the RPG are canon, Shallan's truths have only affected Pattern as her relationship with Testament is put on hold until their ideals are equal, and from then on any truth she tells will serve both Sprens.

Yeah, but Shallan's bond with Testament is broken. Does it say something about how to revive a deadeye? Brandon previously stated that a knight needs to first reswear all Oaths to revive their Deadeye.

Spoiler

Questioner

The dead Shardblades, could you possibly get Stormlight into them to reawaken them?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Shardblade, could you pump enough Stormlight into them? That alone would not be enough.

Questioner

So you would have to find someone to re-swear with oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something broken on the Spiritual Realm because of the broken oath and simple Stormlight will not fix that.

Questioner

So say--

Brandon Sanderson

If the person were still alive and could re-swear the oath then yes.

Questioner

But someone like [...] could go [...] the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not outside of reason but it would be very, very, very difficult.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, but Shallan's bond with Testament is broken. Does it say something about how to revive a deadeye? Brandon previously stated that a knight needs to first reswear all Oaths to revive their Deadeye.

Conveniently, Shallan just re-swore her Second Oath...

Shallan's Oaths are weird, because she seems to keep saying "truths" that don't qualify as Ideals, and we've got no idea where she stopped with Testament besides 3rd or above. 

[Vin(Diesel)]

Brandon has told us that Shallan is an unreliable narrator, which makes me think we have at least one more big reveal about her, something that makes her lie about many things in her life to conceal it from herself. What big thing could effect many areas of Shallan’s life?

[Master Silver]

1 minute ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Brandon has told us that Shallan is an unreliable narrator, which makes me think we have at least one more big reveal about her, something that makes her lie about many things in her life to conceal it from herself. What big thing could effect many areas of Shallan’s life?

I agree, but I think the big reveal is what everyone has guessed. That Shallan killed her mom who was a Herald. 

[Vin(Diesel)]

20 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I agree, but I think the big reveal is what everyone has guessed. That Shallan killed her mom who was a Herald. 

I don’t see how that would affect her reliability as a narrator, though, except maybe for a few things she says about her family. 

[coolsnow7]

16 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Shouldn't Kelek have recognised her, though? Or noticed/sensed some resemblance at least?

And if Venli  could detect and track the souls of the Fused by looking into the Cognitive, shouldn't the same work for Heralds as well? Like, Jasnah should have seen something seriously weird about ShaChana's soul when soulcasting around her, ditto the other Lightweavers.

 

This makes a ton of assumptions about the relevant mechanics. But there’s no point speculating about the mechanics because they haven’t been unveiled yet. We have another 6 books from an author who loved to introduce new mechanics in every book - plenty of time for this to work itself out. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

17 hours ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

I don’t see how that would affect her reliability as a narrator, though, except maybe for a few things she says about her family. 

I think we have seen how she is not a reliable narrator over time. We were given the surprise realization that she had a shardblade, and then that she had 2 bonds, one of which had been broken, and also there's some fuzziness about her memories with using a seon box communicator before. I think there are plenty of examples of Shallan's memory being incorrect or blocked off to certain memories, and throughout the series we have had some reveals that clarified her real background a little more.

So I think it makes plenty of sense for her last big reveal of the first half of the series to be realizing that her mom was actually a herald, so that fact that she killed her was basically what kicked off the desolation. That's a pretty massive reveal that will be very surprising to a lot of people who haven't been digging into the main theories for future events. I think her turning out to be Chana would be kind of odd and just 'surprising' for the sake of being surprising. Kind of feels out of the blue without anything really pointing to it.

Edit to add: I just feel like the "Shallan is Chana" theory was born out of people getting very used to the idea of Chana being Shallan's mom, which is also just a theory at this point and hasn't been confirmed. It feels like people got bored with that since it is basically confirmed, and now they are thinking of ways to make a twist on top of the twist.

Edited August 28, 2024 by CognitiveShadow

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Is anyone else just TERRIFIED by these Epigraphs or is that just me?!? I am SO scared every time I read one basically

Quote

This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were

----------------------------

She did not see the future.

But she somehow knew it anyway

Argh, I'm so nervous reading these epigraphs and the chapters!

On 8/26/2024 at 3:25 PM, Texside said:

I admit I've been puzzling out how can Gallant become a flying horse full time since this morning.

We hear in one of Dalinar's flashbacks that "the Radiants had Ryshadium" so I'm sure that Gallant is far more special than we knew even before. I wouldn't be surprised to see him swoop down out of the sky in this battle to save Adolin or someone

 

EDIT

Also... I love how we got a sort of explanation for where all the missing shardblades went neatly in these early chapters. No massive hidden cache of them in Shinovar or elsewhere needed now. They've just... faded from the Phyiscal realm after being lost or forgotten with time. 

Edited August 29, 2024 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Dofurion]

8 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Is anyone else just TERRIFIED by these Epigraphs or is that just me?!? I am SO scared every time I read one basically

That very epigraph brought me peace, it means that humans have become accustomed to treating Sprens as equals.

[coolsnow7]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:13 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

I think we have seen how she is not a reliable narrator over time. We were given the surprise realization that she had a shardblade, and then that she had 2 bonds, one of which had been broken, and also there's some fuzziness about her memories with using a seon box communicator before. I think there are plenty of examples of Shallan's memory being incorrect or blocked off to certain memories, and throughout the series we have had some reveals that clarified her real background a little more.

So I think it makes plenty of sense for her last big reveal of the first half of the series to be realizing that her mom was actually a herald, so that fact that she killed her was basically what kicked off the desolation. That's a pretty massive reveal that will be very surprising to a lot of people who haven't been digging into the main theories for future events. I think her turning out to be Chana would be kind of odd and just 'surprising' for the sake of being surprising. Kind of feels out of the blue without anything really pointing to it.

Edit to add: I just feel like the "Shallan is Chana" theory was born out of people getting very used to the idea of Chana being Shallan's mom, which is also just a theory at this point and hasn't been confirmed. It feels like people got bored with that since it is basically confirmed, and now they are thinking of ways to make a twist on top of the twist.

In a nutshell, the thematic case for the Shallan = Chana theory is as follows:

If Shallan’s big reveal is “as a ten year old I did an oopsie and pressed the Desolation button in the process of killing my mom in self defense”, this series sucks. Reading a ‘90s Arabic soap opera about how Shallan will never get over her shame for doing something completely unintentionally is not compelling, and would be a tremendous letdown after 5 books of buildup to actual moral ambiguity and actual character development for other characters - and for Shallan herself earlier. (It is also inconsistent with Kelsier’s point “I don’t think we did much, I think this tide was coming no matter what we did”, and with the other Cosmere works where these giant coincidences required Shards setting things up - but this is veering from a thematic case to a technical case.)

By contrast, if the big reveal is that Shallan had a daughter, killed that daughter, and found a way to conceal herself in that daughter’s identity because she couldn’t handle the torment of being a Herald anymore? And now she has to find a way to redeem herself? That’s the sort of ambiguity and character development that’s consistent with the author who gave us Dalinar, Szeth, and Taravangian to wrestle with.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

13 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

By contrast, if the big reveal is that Shallan had a daughter, killed that daughter, and found a way to conceal herself in that daughter’s identity

So for me personally, THIS would feel super contrived as a revelation. 

It would mean that all of Shallan’s growth was to a degree false, and would require a lot of “oh this thing I should have mentioned in the narrative or mental POV of different characters as Shallan interacted with them I just didn’t because I didn’t want to give it away” would feel cheap to me and not Sanderson’s style. 
 

I have hope that he ls going to give us something different than both of those as Shallan’s last secret and that most people will be pleased with it!

[Etedbert he/him]

I’ve never been totally sold on the Chana = Shallan theory. But I’ve always thought that if it was true, it wouldn’t be Chana killing and taking Shallan’s place.

I think Brandon keeps the Shallan killed her herald mother, which kickstarted the desolation, at least faster than it otherwise would have. But I think Chana planned to die.

We know that heralds return with their bodies, unlike the fused who take over a different singer when they return. In the prologue of WoK, we know the 9 heralds broke the oath pact, leaving only Taln, upholding it. This is probably why Jezrien properly dies instead of being trapped properly in the gemstone when Vyre stabs him.

I think Chana’s plan was to try and return like the Fused do, to die and try and take over Shallan’s body, in an attempt to break her (capital C) Connection to Roshar and Honor, to try and get off-world. If Lin did know about the plan, I’d guess that’s what they fought about so often. Chana works with various organizations to try and realize this plan, including Nale’s sky-breakers

When little Shallan is revealed as a surgebinder, a skybreaker associate of Chana’s goes to kill her, he and Lin fight, Chana ends up with the knife and moves towards Shallan, either planning to kill Shallan OR to kill herself, and try and have her soul enter Shallan’s body. Shallan then kills Chana, and the sky breaker acolyte. Chana’s soul either fully or (more likely imo) only partially, enters Shallan. Losing Chana’s Identity, but retaining other spiritual aspects. This extra soul becomes incorporated into Shallan, eventually becoming what Shallan names Radiant. A persona to protect Shallan from the truth of her mother, based on the spiritual aspects of Chana without her identity. A soldier, confident and brave, etc.

Especially given the new appearance of Radiant when Shallan gives her illusion form mass in the new chapters, with a braid like Chana. And we see Radiant almost walk Shallan through re-swearing what I guess is her second oath to Testament. It’s the same second oath she swore to Pattern, but altered slightly. Radiant is then corrected by Shallan about her true “weapon” when Radiant tries to use physical force against the Heavenly One. Definitely seems like Radiant and Shallan are on different pages, and increasingly more so. Radiant has a very Dustbringer sensibility, Chana’s patroned radiant order.

Also correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Radiant in red shard plate at the battle of Thaylen Field when Shallan light weaves illusions of Radiant and Veil ? The same armor color as Dustbringers.

I know Chana never joined her order, so she wouldn’t have had Spren shardplate, but I think Shallan is drawing on Chana’s remnant soul’s connection to the order when depicting Radiant.

 

again, I actually don’t think this will be the case, but I think it’s an interesting line of thinking about the Chana = Shallan theory, or I guess the Chana = Radiant theory.

Now I get to wait for @alder24 to pull a crazy WOB from their back pocket that blows a hole through this already shaky theory

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

Now I get to wait for @alder24 to pull a crazy WOB from their back pocket that blows a hole through this already shaky theory

Nah, no WoBs, just some quotes.

35 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

We know that heralds return with their bodies, unlike the fused who take over a different singer when they return. In the prologue of WoK, we know the 9 heralds broke the oath pact, leaving only Taln, upholding it. This is probably why Jezrien properly dies instead of being trapped properly in the gemstone when Vyre stabs him.

It's partially the reason. The other reason is that Honor is dead and now Heralds lack a strong Connection to SR. Without a proper Connection to PR or SR, their soul is fading in a gemstone. RoW epigraphs ch 92-93:

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

 

"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last."

 

38 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

I think Chana’s plan was to try and return like the Fused do, to die and try and take over Shallan’s body, in an attempt to break her (capital C) Connection to Roshar and Honor, to try and get off-world.

This wouldn't work because it's not their bodies that prevents Heralds from leaving, it's their hyper-invested soul. In fact Fused also can't leave. This trick wouldn't change anything about Chana's soul - it would still be too invested and bound to Roshar, this time hijacking Shallan's body instead of creating her own. RoW ch 89:

Quote

“I wanted to go, for years,” Raboniel said. “Visit the place myself. Unfortunately, I learned it wasn’t possible. I’m trapped in this system, my soul bound to Braize—you call it Damnation—a planet farther out in orbit around the sun.”

 

53 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

And we see Radiant almost walk Shallan through re-swearing what I guess is her second oath to Testament. It’s the same second oath she swore to Pattern, but altered slightly.

That Truth was definitely sworn to Testament in WoK. It was the summoning of her Shardblade (Testament) that allowed her to Soulcast.

Quote

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horric act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct:
What are you?
[...]
“What am I?” she whispered. “I’m terried.”
This is true.

 

Spoiler

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

GollanczFest London (Oct. 17, 2015)

 

44 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

Also correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Radiant in red shard plate at the battle of Thaylen Field when Shallan light weaves illusions of Radiant and Veil ? The same armor color as Dustbringers.

Garnet - associated with Lightweavers. OB ch 120:

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

The same color as the Shardblade she gave to Kaladin in WoR ch 72:

Quote

Kaladin stared at the glistening length of metal, which dripped with condensation from its summoning. It glowed softly the color of garnet along several faint lines down its length.

 

I think there are some clues that indicate there is something of Chana in Shallan, represented by Radiant. However I doubt it's the whole of Chana, or something that entered Shallan when she killed Chana. It's probably similar to Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Returned blood in Vivenna and Siri, granting them Royal Lock and some other various abilities. When Returned are having kids they are passing part of their divine nature onto them and this probably applies to Heralds as well. Shallan would have something like that in her soul.

[coolsnow7]

On 8/30/2024 at 11:20 AM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

So for me personally, THIS would feel super contrived as a revelation. 

It would mean that all of Shallan’s growth was to a degree false, and would require a lot of “oh this thing I should have mentioned in the narrative or mental POV of different characters as Shallan interacted with them I just didn’t because I didn’t want to give it away” would feel cheap to me and not Sanderson’s style. 
 

I have hope that he ls going to give us something different than both of those as Shallan’s last secret and that most people will be pleased with it!

Absolutely not - it would mean that, in the absence of the burdens of being a Herald, Shallan was able to grow a lot - and now the challenge is integrating her developed self with her Heraldic baggage.

[dvoraen]

So, my take on Shallan's Words and such are basically this:

She repaired part of her bond to Testament. The imperative from Radiant pretty heavily implies this: "Say them again." (emphasis mine) Shallan's already said them, in The Way of Kings, and so far as we know she did not have a bond to Pattern then. Then she swears (to who?) about being a murderer and killing her father, which could have put her at the Fourth Ideal but in a damaged way. This particular moment is the tricky one, because it could suggest one of a number of things:

• Her repressed memories of Testament and their damaged bond meant swearing a truth/Ideal doesn't work the same as it would for other Radiants. So she might have the Intent behind the words, but the full benefits aren't being realized due to the Connections no longer being there to allow access to them. This would explain why she's "a step beyond Kaladin" as of the end of Words of Radiance and getting some oddities with creationspren constantly lurking around her (but not seeming to Connect to her as fully realized Plate); they're waiting for her to experience the full effect of the Fourth Ideal so they can Connect to her.
• It wasn't a Cryptic at all, but one of the Unmade. This seems unlikely to me, because if a seemingly sapient Unmade was near Kharbranth at the time, I figure there would be signs of this.
• Something else entirely. We still don't really know anything about the "great ones of the spren," which always made me think there were spren somewhere between Radiant spren and the Bondsmith spren that we simply know nothing about. Additionally, we don't know which spren are really administrating each Order. There's a hint that the Nightwatcher might be adjudicating Venli's oaths, and the Stormfather (and Dalinar) the Windrunners, but if a spren of some sort is accepting the Words, how is this working for Skybreakers and highspren, for example?

[Diomedes]

thx 

Edited September 2, 2024 by Diomedes
mistaken thread