What Vasher was doing during the occupation.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

According to this WoB, Vasher was not merely hiding during the occupation of Urithiru:

Spoiler

Vishal Pani

Why didn't Kaladin seek help from Zahel during the occupation of Urithiru?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel... At some point I'll tell you what he was doing, but he was not available. That is a RAFO.

It came up multiple times, and there were various points where I was going to delve into it, and it just was one of those things that I just could not fit in. It is a thing that I wanted to, because we have this foreshadowing that Zahel's there; like, we have a scene with him and Kaladin to remind everyone that Zahel's around. And then we don't even bring him up. Alpha readers asked about it, beta readers asked about it. I could not find time for it. So maybe you'll get a deleted scene that is not a deleted scene, that's just a scene that I eventually write, showing what he's doing. This is one of those things like: what happened with Elhokar and the Herdazians and why does Lopen think he's a king? That scene just never fit into the books either.

Maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't. It's entirely possible, both options are possible. If I eventually never do it, I'll talk about it, but we are gonna have a little more Zahel in an upcoming volume of the Stormlight Archive, where some of these things coming out might fit into the story, to the point that your answers will come in that volume. There's a lot of various moving parts on what's going on with Zahel, and with Azure as well, and their relationship to Nightblood that there's just not space in the Stormlight Archive to talk about.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

The prolong let us know that Gallar was working closely with Vasher to produce anti-void light. What if, during the occupation, Vasher was producing as much anti-void light as he could?

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

According to this WoB, Vasher was not merely hiding during the occupation of Urithiru:

  Reveal hidden contents

Vishal Pani

Why didn't Kaladin seek help from Zahel during the occupation of Urithiru?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel... At some point I'll tell you what he was doing, but he was not available. That is a RAFO.

It came up multiple times, and there were various points where I was going to delve into it, and it just was one of those things that I just could not fit in. It is a thing that I wanted to, because we have this foreshadowing that Zahel's there; like, we have a scene with him and Kaladin to remind everyone that Zahel's around. And then we don't even bring him up. Alpha readers asked about it, beta readers asked about it. I could not find time for it. So maybe you'll get a deleted scene that is not a deleted scene, that's just a scene that I eventually write, showing what he's doing. This is one of those things like: what happened with Elhokar and the Herdazians and why does Lopen think he's a king? That scene just never fit into the books either.

Maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't. It's entirely possible, both options are possible. If I eventually never do it, I'll talk about it, but we are gonna have a little more Zahel in an upcoming volume of the Stormlight Archive, where some of these things coming out might fit into the story, to the point that your answers will come in that volume. There's a lot of various moving parts on what's going on with Zahel, and with Azure as well, and their relationship to Nightblood that there's just not space in the Stormlight Archive to talk about.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

The prolong let us know that Gallar was working closely with Vasher to produce anti-void light. What if, during the occupation, Vasher was producing as much anti-void light as he could?

Maybe, but why would he do this? He may not like Odium ruling over Urithiru, but he clearly keeps his distance away from any fighting. Moreover creating anti-light requires expensive equipment, to which Vasher wouldn't have any access during occupation. Not to mention that just playing anti-Odium Rhythm would alert every Fused, Regal, Singer and spren in the nearest area. I think it's very unlikely. 

It's more likely that his past with Gavilar came to bite him in the rear so he went hiding. I wouldn't be surprised if Ghostbloods found out Vasher was working with Gavilar discovering anti-light and they try to find and capture him during the chaos of the occupation.

[BinarySecond]

The meta answer is him being there with existing knowledge of anti light spoils Navani's arc for RoW.

[Isilel]

All I can is that it was pretty jarring to me that after their scene together, Kaladin didn't even think about finding and recruiting Vasher during his whole "die hard" routine. IMHO, Sanderson should have included a sentence or 2 about why this wasn't an option.

Anyway, Vasher can change his appearance at will, can't he? Though maybe the Fused could sense his investiture somehow. Or those of respective Brands could do what Venli did to track the Fused and look at souls through the Cognitive.

What I don't understand is why, after giving anti-voidlight to Gavilar, Vasher didn't do the same for the protagonists, after the Desolation actually happened. 

 

[The Stick]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

All I can is that it was pretty jarring to me that after their scene together, Kaladin didn't even think about finding and recruiting Vasher during his whole "die hard" routine. IMHO, Sanderson should have included a sentence or 2 about why this wasn't an option.

Anyway, Vasher can change his appearance at will, can't he? Though maybe the Fused could sense his investiture somehow. Or those of respective Brands could do what Venli did to track the Fused and look at souls through the Cognitive.

What I don't understand is why, after giving anti-voidlight to Gavilar, Vasher didn't do the same for the protagonists, after the Desolation actually happened. 

 

I am thinking that the answers to this are all 5d chess Endowment things. We know Vasher hates the Shards in general, but I think that he somehow is obligated to do certain things for Endowment, possibly in relation to the creation of Nightblood. We also know that Vasher has not yet really had any chance to fulfill the purpose of his return from WoB, so it makes me think that this is some long-term Endowment shennaniganing. At least we know that anti-light was not his purpose.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

3 hours ago, The Stick said:

I am thinking that the answers to this are all 5d chess Endowment things. We know Vasher hates the Shards in general, but I think that he somehow is obligated to do certain things for Endowment, possibly in relation to the creation of Nightblood. We also know that Vasher has not yet really had any chance to fulfill the purpose of his return from WoB, so it makes me think that this is some long-term Endowment shennaniganing. At least we know that anti-light was not his purpose.

I’m interested what his propose on Roshar would be. Most Returneds purposes involve giving up their divine breath to help someone, however, Radiants can heal themselves, and some can heal others. Obviously Vasher can do things besides that, but it seemed like the returned were only brought back temporarily, to do something they needed to. I don’t think Vasher is going to die, but that’s just my opinion. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

18 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

I’m interested what his propose on Roshar would be. Most Returneds purposes involve giving up their divine breath to help someone, however, Radiants can heal themselves, and some can heal others. Obviously Vasher can do things besides that, but it seemed like the returned were only brought back temporarily, to do something they needed to. I don’t think Vasher is going to die, but that’s just my opinion. 

Vasher might be able to heal a Herald's mind - specifically Taln's, because he's had a bit more damage than the wear-and-tear that the other Heralds seem to be suffering from. Healing that has always seen a bit unlikely, but if anything could do it a Divine Breath can.

I doubt he'd die yet either, though. Stormlight hasn't really foreshadowed that he's capable of that, and it would be somewhat unsatisfying out of the blue.

Honestly I thought he left Urithiru because the suppressor fabrial could eject his Breath if tuned correctly, but I don't think that's the case.

[ALAKA]

Like everyone else in France after 1945 Urithiru, he was in the Resistance - but secretly and in another cell so he couldn't tell anyone at the time

[Kfish]

Honestly, maybe he left the tower to avoid conflict. His life sense might have picked up on them coming. 

 

As for other Vasher mysteries. Well, he was originally called Warbreaker wasn't he? I feel he's going to be important in this last part stopping the biggest war in the universe to date.

 

I think the antilight may have been a means to an ends. I could see vasher trying to destroy nightblood and hoping that antilight works but we know that night blood isn't just pure endowment investiture so it may have failed. 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Kfish said:

I could see vasher trying to destroy nightblood and hoping that antilight works but we know that night blood isn't just pure endowment investiture so it may have failed. 

He knows this for sure. However it would work anyway. Any anti-investiture interacting with any investiture would cause annihilation, but if you were to match them together the reaction would be stronger. Nightblood is ridiculously invested, Vasher would need to create a huge amount of anti-investiture to destroy him - too big.

Spoiler

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Anti-Investiture also seems a bit inconsistent, iirc - Raboniel stabbed Moash with anti-Stormlight and all it seemed to do was drain his own Stormlight rather than explode him, and it doesn’t react to raysium.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Anti-Investiture also seems a bit inconsistent, iirc - Raboniel stabbed Moash with anti-Stormlight and all it seemed to do was drain his own Stormlight rather than explode him, and it doesn’t react to raysium.

There was no anti-Voidlight in the knife, Raboniel revered the knife to drain his Stormlight, he wouldn't have exploded because his spirit web wasn't under pressure, unlike lights in a gemstone (Raboniel's daughter didn't explode) and solid investiture is more resilient to this reaction. RoW ch 107:

Quote

Raboniel launched herself at him, clawing up his body. Her legs didn’t work, but she gripped Moash with talonlike fingers, snarling, and stabbed him repeatedly with the dagger Navani had left.
The knife had no anti-Voidlight remaining—but it was draining his Stormlight. Raboniel had reversed the blade.

RoW ch 97:

Quote

“Indeed,” Raboniel said. “You may wish to take cover.” Then she turned, walked across the room, and stabbed her daughter in the chest.
Navani was too stunned to move. She stood there amid the rubble, gaping as Raboniel loomed over the other Fused, pushing the weapon in deeper. The younger Fused began to spasm, and Raboniel held her, ruthless as she pressed the weapon into her daughter’s flesh.
There was no explosion. The Voidlight inside the Fused wasn’t under pressure as it was in a gemstone, perhaps. There was a stench of burning flesh, and the skin blistered around the wound. The younger Fused trembled and screamed, clutching at her mother’s arm with a clawed hand.
Then her eyes turned milky, like white marble. She went limp, and Navani thought she saw something escape her lips. Smoke? As if her entire insides had been burned away

 

Spoiler

TopicCharming2157

Living Shardblades are the physical manifestation of spren. If Moash had used Raboniel's anti-Stormlight charged dagger to stab a spren while in Shardblade form, would it kill the spren? (Like Kaladin forming a Syl shield to guard a stab)

Brandon Sanderson

Physical form of a spren is going to be more resilient to this.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

TheBurningDusk

In Rhythm of War, why did the anti-Voidlight not react with the raysium in the dagger?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that for now. Good question, but... yeah, there's some reasons here.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

There was no anti-Voidlight in the knife, Raboniel revered the knife to drain his Stormlight, he wouldn't have exploded because his spirit web wasn't under pressure, unlike lights in a gemstone (Raboniel's daughter didn't explode) and solid investiture is more resilient to this reaction. RoW ch 107:

Ah. I thought it had been with anti-Stormlight.

Then I don't think we have an answer to that question - what happens to a non-Cognitive Shadow when they're stabbed with anti-Investiture, whether Invested or not? Souls are Investiture, but I'd been under the impression that anti-Investiture was somewhat specific to attacking Shadows. And I doubt raysium can drain a soul directly, because if it could then it would probably drain the Radiant Bond itself rather than just Stormlight, and the daggers themselves would be the weapon that Raboniel was looking for.

Also there... really should still be an explosion. Investiture is still being annihilated; that should result in a massive release of energy (or matter). Unless that's what that smoke was? Or the release is occurring in the Cognitive/Spiritual realms. (Also I'd always thought Singers kept their Voidlight in their gemheart, but I suppose the knife was reacting with her loose soul and not her pressurized gemheart.)

 

Although raysium on its own could probably kill Vasher even easier than it killed Jezrien, now that I'm thinking about it.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Then I don't think we have an answer to that question - what happens to a non-Cognitive Shadow when they're stabbed with anti-Investiture, whether Invested or not? Souls are Investiture, but I'd been under the impression that anti-Investiture was somewhat specific to attacking Shadows.

The same thing, just faster and requiring less anti-light. It doesn't matter if it's Cognitive Shadow or a normal person, their soul will get annihilated. Here is a related WoB about eating anti-Lerasium:

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested anti-lerasium or anti-atium, assuming they don't explode?

Brandon Sanderson

If you are not highly Invested yourself, and you get the anti[-Investiture], it's not gonna be a fun time. You won't explode, but it will kill you, almost assuredly. Not a fun time, but not an explosively not-a-fun-time, just a regular old not-a-fun-time. Maybe a little bit like pouring molten metal down your throat.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

6 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

And I doubt raysium can drain a soul directly, because if it could then it would probably drain the Radiant Bond itself rather than just Stormlight, and the daggers themselves would be the weapon that Raboniel was looking for.

Agreed.

7 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Also there... really should still be an explosion. Investiture is still being annihilated; that should result in a massive release of energy (or matter).

An explosion is just a rapid release of energy. If the release is gradual enough, it won't produce any explosion. Energy is still generated by it, quickly dispersing within the flesh, burning it as a result. From the description above we can see it took a considerable amount of time, it wasn't instantaneous.

14 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Although raysium on its own could probably kill Vasher even easier than it killed Jezrien, now that I'm thinking about it.

Yes, it could probably just suck out his Divine Breath without touching his soul.

[Ashbringer he/him]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The same thing, just faster and requiring less anti-light. It doesn't matter if it's Cognitive Shadow or a normal person, their soul will get annihilated. Here is a related WoB about eating anti-Lerasium:

 

Oooh, good find.

Although, I wonder if that's more specific to lerasium than to anti-Investiture in general. My personal explanation for lerasium creating Mistborn as a "side effect" is that lerasium does its thing, then grafts the Preservation-Investiture to the burner's soul, which is basically what being a Mistborn is - if it was anti-lerasium, you'd basically be grafting anti-Investiture to your own non-anti-soul, which... yeah ouch.

But if it's the only thing we've got, then yeah I'd imagine mixing anti-Investiture with normal people would be a bad thing. Just somewhat of a question of if raysium is capable of it, and what happens if they are Invested.

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

An explosion is just a rapid release of energy. If the release is gradual enough, it won't produce any explosion. Energy is still generated by it, quickly dispersing within the flesh, burning it as a result. From the description above we can see it took a considerable amount of time, it wasn't instantaneous.

If it's gradual enough, yes. But one gram of matter annihilating is the same energy release as a nuke going off; spreading that energy release over a minute or so is still quite "rapid".

We have no idea how well Investiture to energy goes - based on the fact Navani's researchers didn't wipe Urithiru off the map when they mixed the two Voidlights, I'd assume it's not quite the same potential. But we also don't really know how much Investiture is in a sphere compared to a soul (Sunlit Man's BEUs is a start but we need a Breath->Voidlight conversion).

I'm guessing it's because the actual annihilation is occurring on the Spiritual realm, not the Physical like the spheres would be.

... this is a little off topic of the thread 

Maybe Vasher was in the Spiritual Realm to take a look at anti-Investiture in souls?

[Kfish]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:18 AM, alder24 said:

He knows this for sure. However it would work anyway. Any anti-investiture interacting with any investiture would cause annihilation, but if you were to match them together the reaction would be stronger. Nightblood is ridiculously invested, Vasher would need to create a huge amount of anti-investiture to destroy him - too big.

  Hide contents

R'Shara

Does anti-Investiture react to a different Shard’s Investiture in any significant way?

Brandon Sanderson

The answer is kind of a no, kind of a yes. Mostly a no. Anti-Investiture is going to have an explosive reaction. But the thing is, if it’s anti-Investiture of a specific Shard, that explosion is much grander. But you can make that explosion happen in a just antimatter-and-matter same sort of thing. But you can make the explosion bigger.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

 

21 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Ah. I thought it had been with anti-Stormlight.

Then I don't think we have an answer to that question - what happens to a non-Cognitive Shadow when they're stabbed with anti-Investiture, whether Invested or not? Souls are Investiture, but I'd been under the impression that anti-Investiture was somewhat specific to attacking Shadows. And I doubt raysium can drain a soul directly, because if it could then it would probably drain the Radiant Bond itself rather than just Stormlight, and the daggers themselves would be the weapon that Raboniel was looking for.

Also there... really should still be an explosion. Investiture is still being annihilated; that should result in a massive release of energy (or matter). Unless that's what that smoke was? Or the release is occurring in the Cognitive/Spiritual realms. (Also I'd always thought Singers kept their Voidlight in their gemheart, but I suppose the knife was reacting with her loose soul and not her pressurized gemheart.)

 

Although raysium on its own could probably kill Vasher even easier than it killed Jezrien, now that I'm thinking about it.

I didn't know that WOB! Thanks for that. It's nice to see that though it makes the mechanics confuse me a bit since I thought it was a destructive interference thing and sound was specific to certain types of investiture. Kinda destroys my idea that he was doing that to destroy nightblood. I still can't see him helping gavilar with no other goal though.

I also considered that the release of energy should still be massive. It makes me wonder how much energy is actually being generated from the interaction since it's not a bomb when not in an enclosed container. Unlike splitting an atom, it must be a relatively small amount which...is odd when I consider what happens in The Lost Metal. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

17 minutes ago, Kfish said:

I didn't know that WOB! Thanks for that. It's nice to see that though it makes the mechanics confuse me a bit since I thought it was a destructive interference thing and sound was specific to certain types of investiture. Kinda destroys my idea that he was doing that to destroy nightblood. I still can't see him helping gavilar with no other goal though.

I also considered that the release of energy should still be massive. It makes me wonder how much energy is actually being generated from the interaction since it's not a bomb when not in an enclosed container. Unlike splitting an atom, it must be a relatively small amount which...is odd when I consider what happens in The Lost Metal. 

Anti-Investiture is still likely the only way to destroy something like Nightblood, unless someone with a Shard/Dawnshard directly interferes or something. I think it’s still a possible goal. Does Vasher want the sword destroyed, that’s a question. (His goal could have been getting equipped to access Stormlight to live, although I’d think he wouldn’t need help with that.)

As for TLM, that was an actual mass-to-energy conversion rather than only Investiture-to-energy. Although now that I’m rechecking, Wax’s method couldn’t have been very efficient or that would have also been a nuke, because he stuck half a gram in that safe. Annihilation’s no joke.

[Kfish]

On 8/25/2024 at 1:20 PM, Ashbringer said:

Anti-Investiture is still likely the only way to destroy something like Nightblood, unless someone with a Shard/Dawnshard directly interferes or something. I think it’s still a possible goal. Does Vasher want the sword destroyed, that’s a question. (His goal could have been getting equipped to access Stormlight to live, although I’d think he wouldn’t need help with that.)

As for TLM, that was an actual mass-to-energy conversion rather than only Investiture-to-energy. Although now that I’m rechecking, Wax’s method couldn’t have been very efficient or that would have also been a nuke, because he stuck half a gram in that safe. Annihilation’s no joke.

Agreed. That implies investiture in physical form is incredibly sense compared to the light form (pseudo-gaseuous?)

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 8/25/2024 at 2:20 PM, Ashbringer said:

As for TLM, that was an actual mass-to-energy conversion rather than only Investiture-to-energy. Although now that I’m rechecking, Wax’s method couldn’t have been very efficient or that would have also been a nuke, because he stuck half a gram in that safe. Annihilation’s no joke.

I do not have the quote, but it is stated in TLM that a very very small piece is actually converted into energy, the rest is exploded throughout the room from that reaction. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

3 hours ago, Kfish said:

Agreed. That implies investiture in physical form is incredibly sense compared to the light form (pseudo-gaseuous?)

Solids tend to be denser than gases, yes 

But yeah. We’ve gotten a few things (like in TLM or Sunlit Man) about how Invested materials have weird phyiscal properties. And gases compress, whereas I don’t think Lights necessarily do.

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I do not have the quote, but it is stated in TLM that a very very small piece is actually converted into energy, the rest is exploded throughout the room from that reaction. 

True, I spotted that on the Coppermind afterwards. But we also don’t know if that’s true of the method entirely or just Wax’s method. Wax tried it once, while the Set had several years preparing; also the Set were specifically trying to make a bomb while Wax was trying to make lerasium.

There’s a quote somewhere in TLM about them being unsure if the bomb would ignite Scadrial’s atmosphere - that’s mostly playing on similar fears from around real life atomic bomb testing, but if the Set’s method was efficient enough it maybe could have.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

But we also don’t know if that’s true of the method entirely or just Wax’s method.

There are certainly more efficient methods. Probably having a lot to do with the ratio of trellium to harmonium, and the speed at which they are forced together. 

 

I think Brandon is mirroring real life nuke development in a lot of ways. The first atomic bombs we made were very dirty (lots of radiation) because they were inefficient compared to our modern day nukes. 

 

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Set’s method was efficient enough it maybe could have.

 

Our current understanding of physics would suggest this is impossible. Of course brandon can have the magic bomb do whatever he wants, but since he seems to be mirroring real nuke development, I would say that no matter how big the harmonium-trellium bomb is, it will not ignite the Scadrian atmosphere. 

From Advanced Science News:

“The limits were luckily never tested, but in general, I would say, the density of the atmosphere is too low,” Wiescher responded when asked whether a powerful enough bomb to burn the Earth’s atmosphere could ever be built.

“If one would substantially increase the atmospheric density to Venus values — 100 times denser than Earth — one would still not have the density of water, and the underwater test program did not ignite the oceans, as some people predicted,” he elaborated.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Our current understanding of physics would suggest this is impossible. Of course brandon can have the magic bomb do whatever he wants, but since he seems to be mirroring real nuke development, I would say that no matter how big the harmonium-trellium bomb is, it will not ignite the Scadrian atmosphere. 

Ah. Good to know that's not a worry, I suppose 

I will note that there are some examples of the "magic bomb", mainly looking at what the Dawnshards did to Ashyn, and looking at Canticle in general. But those have more going on.

[Rorzikel]

"What Vasher was doing during the occupation"

Looking for new job opportunities amongst dubious individuals in need of their own personal Oppenheimer. Come Mistborn Era 3, I expect to see Vasher sleeping on Kelsier's couch while he works on the programmable spikes or awakened metalminds.

[Zea mays]

What was Vasher doing on day 1 then?

Is he still somewhere in the Tower? Has he left?

Will Kaladin ever meet him again or was their conversation at the beginning of ROW their last one?