[Theory] Radiant is Chana's Self Aware Honorblade

[teknopathetic he/him]

As a very mild spoiler, we learn in SA5 Previews that Shallan:

Spoiler

Shallan went back and opened her family safe to retrieve a blade before Shallan set off to find Jasnah

We are led to believe that this was Testament. However, does that make sense?

1. After the self defense killing, Younger Shallan remembers her father placing Shallan's Mother's Soul in a safe. 

2. After the soul/blade/? is placed in the safe, Younger Shallan goes to the garden to break her oaths to Testament AFTER the soul/blade/? is placed in the safe. Why would Shallan go to the garden if she also knew that Testament was locked in a safe? So is it either that Testament went back into the safe after being semi-deadeyed? Or is that a different blade in the safe to begin with?

3. Lyn Davar owns a shardblade safe? Is this ... normal? Why would Lyn have this to begin with? And why would he be so quick to shove a blade in there during the crisis? Why would he assume his daughter just wouldn't resummon the blade? And why would he never consider getting the blade later?

4. In the SA5 previews, we learn that Shallan Davar went to open her father's safe before heading off to find Jasnah. Shallan did this still believing that the safe contained her mother's soul. Up until Shallan meets Pattern in WoR, Shallan is 100% sure the safe contains her mother's soul. She has years of memories regarding the light emanating from the safe, and also believes her father sees the light as well. It is only in WoR when Pattern, while pretending to actually have been Testament in this retelling, convinces Shallan that Shallan is misremembering the blade event. But Pattern wasn't actually there. he has no idea what went down. Pattern is assuming Shallan is wrong, but Pattern doesn't actually know this. 

----

Theory: The blade was Chana's Honourblade:

We learn in a wob that Honourblades are self aware: 

Quote

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

My theory is that Lyn rushed to place Chana's Honorblade in the safe. We know that Honourblades return to Braize upon a herald's death, so perhaps Chana came to believe that keeping the honorblade on Roshar would delay her return in some way or provide some benefit? Under this theory, Lyn had been drilled on what to do if Chana were to ever die, and he rushed to secure the blade in the safe before attending to anything else. 

Years later, in a moment of desperation before heading out to find Jasnah, Shallan went to open the safe and retrieve her mother's soul.  Shallan grabbed the honorblade and took it with her. Shallan on some level knew what her mother was, and was not 100% aware that she could summon Testament. 

Opening the safe allowed Chana to finally go 100% to Braize. Shallan bonded the blade before it could return to Braize. As well, Chana breaks around the time Shallan goes to meet Jasnah. This explains why Taln returns right around the time Shallan finds Jasnah. 

Then, Shallan starts to slowly reforge her bond with Testament while creating a new bond with Pattern. Slowly, the self aware Honourblade begins to manifest as Radiant. Radiant is a combination of the Honorblade's spirit and the connection bonds to Chana.

Shardblade events like the chasm, or Tyn, may have been either Testament or the Honorblade being summoned. But I suspect one of these events must have been the Honorblade in order to have opened Shallan up to Radiant forming. 

Other heralds believe that Shallan has weird extra powers because of a two spren resonance, but part of it is actually holding an honourblade. Because Ishar went nuts around the same time, news of Chana's blade going missing was not well known. Szeth for example didn't know that Ishar had gone and reclaimed his own blade. 

Edited July 25, 2024 by teknopathetic

[CtrlAltDepressed]

57 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

As a very mild spoiler, we learn in SA5 Previews that Shallan:

Can you link me to this? I read the previews and don't remember this being mentioned. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Can you link me to this? I read the previews and don't remember this being mentioned. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/535-c2e2-2024/#e16576

Here is the relevant part: 

Spoiler

As a child, she'd bonded a spren. Something her mother had not liked. A man had come, either to hurt Shallan or separate her from Testament. Her father had fought him, and during their struggle, Shallan's mother had come at her with a knife. In self-defense, Shallan had killed her mother with an early manifestation of Testament as a Shardblade. Shallan, in trauma, had rejected her nascent oath and buried those memories. But if her bond with Testament had never been fully broken, what did that mean? And which memories of those days between her mother's death and the arrival of Pattern... which of those involved Testament?

I knew I had a Shardblade, long before I had bonded Pattern. I thought about it in Kharbranth. She'd convinced herself that the weapon belonged to her father and had been kept in a safe. She'd gone there before leaving and drawn it out to dismiss it, pretending it was an ordinary Blade, pretending she had ten seconds to summon it. However, a part of her had known, even then, it was Testament, a friend to whom she'd done great harm. That was the one thing Shallan clearly remembered. Testament was her friend. A dimpled pattern on the wall that had delighted, then engaged, then protected a young girl.

Her spren had never been as talkative as Pattern. Indeed, Shallan could only remember rare, soft fragments of speech, encouraging her to stand against the darkness in her family. Shallan had loved her mysterious spren dearly. Though her memories were jumbled, the emotions shone through the pain. Strength could be a matter of perception, sometimes, and today Shallan found she could choose strength.

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by teknopathetic

[clowncarcrash]

Do we know the timeline of when Ishar's honorblade was taken?

I like the theory a lot.

Are we thinking that the knife Shallan's mother used was the honor blade in question? 

[The flying spider he/him]

Aren't all the honor Blades in shinovr? 

[clowncarcrash]

15 minutes ago, The flying spider said:

Aren't all the honor Blades in shinovr? 

Taln's wasn't in Shinovar because it went with him to Braize. The location of the blade is unknown since he came back to Roshar.

Moash has Jezrien's, which was previously held by Szeth.

Nale's used to be in Shinovar but he took his honorblade back at some time in the past. 

And Ishar's was taken by Neturo, and now Ishar has it back.

I'm not sure what the timeline is for the 9 shardblades, but we do know that Szeth practiced with all ten surges. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by clowncarcrash

[teknopathetic he/him]

The current timeline is that Szeth was likely busy assassinating Gavilar around the time Shallan kills her mother. So Szeth would have no way of knowing that Chana had died and recalled her honourblade since Seth was out of contact with the stone shamans. 
 

And we know Szeth wouldn’t get any sort of tip off from the Stone Shamans magically seeing as he had no idea Ishar has reclaimed his Honourblade either. In fact, maybe the safe was preventing the stone shamans from recalling the blade (as they seem magically able to do) 

But either way, we know a herald died on the night of Gavilar's death. A honourblade should have vanished from the stone shamans. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

18 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

As a very mild spoiler, we learn in SA5 Previews that Shallan:

  Hide contents

Shallan went back and opened her family safe to retrieve a blade before Shallan set off to find Jasnah

We are led to believe that this was Testament. However, does that make sense?

1. After the self defense killing, Younger Shallan remembers her father placing Shallan's Mother's Soul in a safe. 

2. After the soul/blade/? is placed in the safe, Younger Shallan goes to the garden to break her oaths to Testament AFTER the soul/blade/? is placed in the safe. Why would Shallan go to the garden if she also knew that Testament was locked in a safe? So is it either that Testament went back into the safe after being semi-deadeyed? Or is that a different blade in the safe to begin with?

Or there was no blade in the safe at all and it was all a lie Shallan was telling herself, a part of her self deception. It's possible Lyn took Shallan's Testament and hid it in the safe, but it dissapeared the moment he closed the doors, as Testament was in the garden when Shallan broke her bond. Since then there was no blade in the safe. But as you see it doesn't work well with the fact that Shallan opened the safe after killing her father and took the Shardblade out. At first I thought it's another self-deception of her, to protect her from truth and in reality she summoned the blade and pretended that she took it out - however it doesn't make sense as Shallan opened herself to all truth regarding Testament, there is no point in lying that she somehow took Testament out of the safe.

So it's either another 3rd blade like you suggest, or there was never any blade hidden in the safe. It's a lie covering the last truth, which is that Chana was her mother. Shallan is lying to herself about what was in the box to hide another truth and I don’t think it has to be any blade. 

18 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

My theory is that Lyn rushed to place Chana's Honorblade in the safe. We know that Honourblades return to Braize upon a herald's death, so perhaps Chana came to believe that keeping the honorblade on Roshar would delay her return in some way or provide some benefit? Under this theory, Lyn had been drilled on what to do if Chana were to ever die, and he rushed to secure the blade in the safe before attending to anything else. 

So it was Shallan who killed Chana with Chana's Honorblade? Because there is no other way for Lyn to grab the Honorblade, it had to be in Shallan's hands. If it was dismissed with Chana then it would not appear next to her body as it would be immediately yanked with her to Braize. And that's a problem, why and how would Shallan suddenly get Chana's Honorblade in her hands?? She couldn't have been bonded with it back then, Chana had to be bonded with it.

Moreover this shouldn't matter at all if the Honorblade bonded with Chana was left behind on Roshar (and the blade isn't a part of the Oathpact anyway), she would be pulled to Braize anyway. We know this because Nale could be on Braize while his spren would stay on Roshar. There should be no delay even if the Honorblade got somehow stuck on Roshar. And a bond with a spren is DEEPER than a bond with an Honorblade - if spren left behind on Roshar doesn't prevent a Herald from returning to Braize, I don't see how an Honorblade trapped on Roshar would do that. 

Spoiler

Chaos2651

We know Nale was the only Herald to join his Order. Based on the vision Dalinar had while touching him, it seemingly happened before the Last Desolation. Did Nale spend time on Braize while he had a Nahel bond? What happened to his highspren while he was there?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. So, if you end up in Braize as a Herald with a Nahel bond, your spren most likely would end up there with you. But there are circumstances where the spren could be left in Shadesmar and separated from you. Both are possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

Spoiler

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

The bond with Honorblades isn't as deep as a Radiant bond, that makes them less efficient, which doesn't change when a Herald bonds them. Nale's bond with his spren is deeper than his bond with his Honorblade.

 

 

And as I've said in another topic, there is only a 1 year long window between Szeth's banishment (who knew Shins had 8 blades in total) and Chana's death for Chana to somehow reclaim her Honorblade from the hands of Shins, who were unwilling to give them back to Heralds. It would be unlikely, but not impossible. 

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Opening the safe allowed Chana to finally go 100% to Braize. Shallan bonded the blade before it could return to Braize. As well, Chana breaks around the time Shallan goes to meet Jasnah. This explains why Taln returns right around the time Shallan finds Jasnah. 

Then, Shallan starts to slowly reforge her bond with Testament while creating a new bond with Pattern. Slowly, the self aware Honourblade begins to manifest as Radiant. Radiant is a combination of the Honorblade's spirit and the connection bonds to Chana.

Wait, so the Honorblade would be still bonded with Chana, while also being bonded with Shallan? I don't think that's possible. I don't think several people can be bonded with one Honorblade/Shardblade.

 

I do agree that Chana's soul was somehow trapped in the safe, maybe it's even the Seon box Shallan remembers using (the safe was called a box quite a few times), but I doubt there was an Honorblade involved. I am more inclined to believe that Shallan lied to herself again in this KoWT chapter, pretending she took out Testament, to hide the truth that she did something with her mother's soul. Veil was created way back then as Shallan's way to hide the fact she killed her mother, Radiant was created probably around the same time, to hide the fact about her mother being Chana. 

 

 

6 hours ago, clowncarcrash said:

Do we know the timeline of when Ishar's honorblade was taken?

Not specifically, but it seems it was after OB. Before that everything was fine in Shinovar, Rysn went there to trade, they were in contact with others like Dalinar after he rediscovered Urithiru etc. Only after OB they started to isolate themselves and shoot arrows towards Windrunners, so this must be when Unmades appeared. Only after this did Ishar come and reclaimed his Honorblade, killing Neturo.

[teknopathetic he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Wait, so the Honorblade would be still bonded with Chana, while also being bonded with Shallan? I don't think that's possible. I don't think several people can be bonded with one Honorblade/Shardblade?

My theory is that the safe blocked the blade from returning with Chana to Braize. When Shallan opened the safe, the last bit of connection holding Chana to Roshar left. Shall quickly bonded the blade and now Shallan is now the person the blade is bonded too. Seeing as Shallan is the child of the herald, it may be easier for Shallan to form a more meaningful bond with the blade. I am not sure if Chana can override this if she were to return, but likely so. But for the meantime, the blade was left on Roshar and did not return with Chana because the safe prevented the blade from returning. 

In terms of how heralds return to Braize and Roshar, we have no idea. We have no idea if the honourblade being locked in a safe might delay the return. All we know is that the blade and the herald seem to go together and appear together. If one is prevented from returning, what happens to the other one? Is there a consequence to the two being seperated upon returns? 

I would assume the heralds would have done some research into not returning to Braize though were unable to 100% test their theories. In fact, seeing as Kalek seems to know heralds can't be contained by gems before Jezrian dies, it seems research has been conducted into this topic.

What Lyn did seems like a contingency plan concocted by Chana. Did it work? Was it to prevent Chana from Returning? Was it ot prevent the blade going to Braize? Did they know it would work? We wont know until SA5. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

My theory is that the safe blocked the blade from returning with Chana to Braize. When Shallan opened the safe, the last bit of connection holding Chana to Roshar left. Shall quickly bonded the blade and now Shallan is now the person the blade is bonded too. Seeing as Shallan is the child of the herald, it may be easier for Shallan to form a more meaningful bond with the blade. I am not sure if Chana can override this if she were to return, but likely so. But for the meantime, the blade was left on Roshar and did not return with Chana because the safe prevented the blade from returning. 

In terms of how heralds return to Braize and Roshar, we have no idea. We have no idea if the honourblade being locked in a safe might delay the return. All we know is that the blade and the herald seem to go together and appear together. If one is prevented from returning, what happens to the other one? Is there a consequence to the two being seperated upon returns? 

I would assume the heralds would have done some research into not returning to Braize though were unable to 100% test their theories. In fact, seeing as Kalek seems to know heralds can't be contained by gems before Jezrian dies, it seems research has been conducted into this topic.

What Lyn did seems like a contingency plan concocted by Chana. Did it work? Was it to prevent Chana from Returning? Was it ot prevent the blade going to Braize? Did they know it would work? We wont know until SA5. 

 

Also, in terms of there only being a year between Chana dying and Taln returning, we know that near the end of the desolation there was sometimes less than a year between desolations.

Quote

Coppermind:
At the beginning, the Heralds held strong and hundreds of years passed between Desolations.^[2] Around 2500 years later,^[2][3] the Heralds started to lose their sanity, and there was less than a year between the last two Desolations, which left humans no time to rebuild society.^[2] 

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

My theory is that the safe blocked the blade from returning with Chana to Braize. When Shallan opened the safe, the last bit of connection holding Chana to Roshar left.

Yes, the safe blocking the blade is fine, it could have been made from aluminum, or like Soen boxes, no problems here. The big question is who was bonded with this Honorblade before Chana died? Was it Chana or Shallan? If Chana was bonded to it, then it should disappear the moment she died, if it was somehow trapped in a box, the bond would still remain, preventing Shallan from bonding it, no matter if the safe was opened or closed. Not to mention why would Shallan used Chana's blade to kill her mother if she wasn't bonded with it, because she had to used it, otherwise the blade would have been dismissed by Chana - when dismissed it would not appear next to her body when she died, it would go straight to Braize with her. If the blade was bonded with Shallan, there is nothing holding Chana to Roshar, no bond between her and the blade exists. 

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

In terms of how heralds return to Braize and Roshar, we have no idea. We have no idea if the honourblade being locked in a safe might delay the return. All we know is that the blade and the herald seem to go together and appear together. If one is prevented from returning, what happens to the other one? Is there a consequence to the two being seperated upon returns? 

That's why used the argument with Nale and his spren. If a deeper bond with a spren doesn't prevent Nale from returning to Braize when his spren is left on Roshar, a weaker bond with an Honorblade won't do this at all. 

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I would assume the heralds would have done some research into not returning to Braize though were unable to 100% test their theories. In fact, seeing as Kalek seems to know heralds can't be contained by gems before Jezrian dies, it seems research has been conducted into this topic.

Did he know it before Jez died? Or simply concluded what had happened based on what he felt when Jez died and his realmatic knowledge? The answer is in RoW epigraphs, ch 79:

Quote

"Jezrien is gone. Despite being all the way out here in Lasting Integrity, I felt him being ripped away. The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent. And with further investigation, I know the truth of what happened to him. It felt like death at first, and I think that is what it ultimately became."

 

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

What Lyn did seems like a contingency plan concocted by Chana.

Agreed.

54 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Also, in terms of there only being a year between Chana dying and Taln returning, we know that near the end of the desolation there was sometimes less than a year between desolations.

Yes, but the problem here is that Chana had no powers before reclaiming her Honorblade, she was in hiding, she was busy having a family, quite a big one, on the opposite side of Roshar. How would she reclaim her Honorblade from Shins who were 100% unwilling to return them to Heralds? She had to steal it, but it would be very hard to do without Surges. So while it's possible and there is enough time to do that (that's why I've mentioned a 1 year window), it's just unlikely. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, the safe blocking the blade is fine, it could have been made from aluminum, or like Soen boxes, no problems here. The big question is who was bonded with this Honorblade before Chana died? Was it Chana or Shallan? If Chana was bonded to it, then it should disappear the moment she died, if it was somehow trapped in a box, the bond would still remain, preventing Shallan from bonding it, no matter if the safe was opened or closed. Not to mention why would Shallan used Chana's blade to kill her mother if she wasn't bonded with it, because she had to used it, otherwise the blade would have been dismissed by Chana - when dismissed it would not appear next to her body when she died, it would go straight to Braize with her. If the blade was bonded with Shallan, there is nothing holding Chana to Roshar, no bond between her and the blade exists. 

That's why used the argument with Nale and his spren. If a deeper bond with a spren doesn't prevent Nale from returning to Braize when his spren is left on Roshar, a weaker bond with an Honorblade won't do this at all. 

I don't believe Shallan killed her mother with Chana's blade. I believe there are briefly two blades in the flashback. Testament is summoned to kill Chana, but Testament is unsummoned and runs ran away to the garden. Chana was not expecting this. Almost at the same moment, Chana dies and Chana's blade is summoned back from Shinovar to her corpse. Even though Chana is not currently using the sword, the heralds and blades are both part of the oathpact and both return to. Braize together. Since tboth the Herald and Blade return together, it makes sense that an honourblade would return to its associated herald's corpse before the two travel to Braize together. Chana would only build a safe for her sword if she believed her sword would return to her upon death. 

Giving someone a honorblade does not make them a herald. The connection between the herald and the blade is special in some way. 

This blade corpse thing didnt happen to Jezrian because Jezrian didnt trigger the return to Braize mechanic. Also, weirdly, Jezrian's blade is with Moash and Jezrian when Jezrian dies. A stoneshamman might be able to wrestle control of a honorblade from a living herald, but the oathpact has the herald and the blade return to Braize. The honorblades are a part of the oathpact as far as we know. 

Complicating this is Shallan. Would the blade have resummon to Braize had Jasnah opened the safe? Is Shallan being half-herald-spren-whatever allowing her to hold onto her mother's blade in a way others couldn't? Or was the blade in the box long enough to sever the connection? I don't know but I am excited to find out! 

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I don't believe Shallan killed her mother with Chana's blade. I believe there are briefly two blades in the flashback. Testament is summoned to kill Chana, but Testament is unsummoned and runs ran away to the garden. Chana was not expecting this. Almost at the same moment, Chana dies and Chana's blade is summoned back from Shinovar to her corpse

Wait, what? So did Shallan kill Chana with Testament, or did Testament run away before she did that? I'm assuming you meant Testament disappeared after Chana was killed, not before. 

And why would Chana's Honorblade be in Shinovar if she was bonded with it? In Shinovar Honorblades are held by guardians, bonded to them - there is no way for Chana's Honorblade to remain in Shinovar while she's bonded with it, she had to have it with her, dismissed if Shallan didn't use it to kill Chana. Otherwise Shins would have just reclaimed it using Ishar's Honorblade to break the bond. Shins not only protect their Honorblades, but use them and train with them. SA5 Szeth flashback 1:

Quote

An honored location, near the Zephyr Monastery just further along the mountain ridge, where one of the sacred Honorblades was kept.
[...]

“Do you think,” Elid whispered, “that the Servant of the Monastery will ever come out and fight for us? Use that sword during one of the raids to drive off the terrible men?”
“Elid!” he said, standing. “The Servant of the Monastery would never subtract.”
“I think you’re wrong,” she replied. “Mother says they practice with the Weapon in there. Why practice with it, except to—”
“They will fight the Voidbringers when they arrive,” Szeth snapped. “That is the reason. No other.” He glanced toward the ocean, unreasonably worried that one of the strange raiders would hear. “Don’t speak of it. Nobody must know. If they realized the treasures of the monasteries...”
“Ha,” she said. “I’d like to see the awful ones raid Zephyr, and face down the Servant. She can fly you know. She—”

And while a Herald dies with their Honorblade, it doesn't appear near their corpse, it goes with them to Braize immediately.

 

17 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Even though Chana is not currently using the sword, the heralds and blades are both part of the oathpact and both return to. Braize together.

No, Honorblades aren't part of the Oathpact, they just represent it. They go back to Braize with Heralds because of their bond, but the bond with an Honorblade is separate from the Oathpact.

Spoiler

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

26 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Chana would only build a safe for her sword if she believed her sword would return to her upon death. 

That's not an argument, it's a fallacy. We don't know why the safe was built, you can't claim it was built to hide the Honorblade and use it as an argument for your theory. If your theory is right, then we know why the safe was made, but because we don't know why yet, you can't claim it's an argument. For all we know she could have built it to store her jewelry. It's not "she made it therefore this theory is true," it's "if the theory is true, then we know why she made it." 

40 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Giving someone a honorblade does not make them a herald. The connection between the herald and the blade is special in some way. 

Yes, Heralds can do more with their Honorblades, but only one person can be bonded with it anyway.

40 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

This blade corpse thing didnt happen to Jezrian because Jezrian didnt trigger the return to Braize mechanic

No, it didn't happen because Jezrien wasn't bonded with his Honorblade anymore - he broke his bond at Aharietiam. Moash was bonded with his blade at that time. There was no bond between Jez and his Honorblade when he died. 

45 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

A stoneshamman might be able to wrestle control of a honorblade from a living herald

Only one person can be bonded with any Shardblade or Honorblade at the time. One blade, one bond.

[agrabes]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:30 PM, alder24 said:

That's not an argument, it's a fallacy. We don't know why the safe was built, you can't claim it was built to hide the Honorblade and use it as an argument for your theory. If your theory is right, then we know why the safe was made, but because we don't know why yet, you can't claim it's an argument. For all we know she could have built it to store her jewelry. It's not "she made it therefore this theory is true," it's "if the theory is true, then we know why she made it." 

 

I agree - I would also point out that we actually don't know that this was truly a safe that was effective in containing a shardblade.  I have always taken it to have been just a regular safe.  Lyn put the shardblade in there to lock it away physically but not magically.  He likely wanted to take the blade for himself at some point after the crisis and horror of seeing it kill his wife, but he probably came back and found the safe empty.  We also know that Shallan lies to herself - its easily possible she faked the memory of the blade being in the safe and/or that she faked the memory of it still being there when she went to get it again later.

I'm not saying it isn't possible that he could have had a special aluminum or other anti-shardblade safe, but it seems really unlikely.  I don't remember a mention of anyone else having one such as Dalinar/Adolin or any other of the people who used shardblades before Radiants came back.  I also think it's unlikely that Chana would have had one.  If it was something the Heralds knew about, they would have done that earlier on in the desolations.  True, thousands of years have passed and they could learn something new, but it still seems really unlikely to me.  If Chana and/or Lyn Davar knew that putting their honorblade in some kind of special safe could have stopped them from going to Braize, then I have to believe that at least some of the other Heralds knew it too.  But we don't know of any other Heralds doing this.

Edited July 29, 2024 by agrabes

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

I was already sure think Radiant was modeled after Shallan's mother, but the Prologue made me extra sure 

[RedBlue]

Aside from the logistics of how this would work, I think Radiant turning out to be a self-aware Honorblade would weaken Shallan’s character arc.

Shallan’s whole thing is truth and lies, bound up in a massive identity crisis. Veil, Radiant and Formless are presented as Shallan’s alters — subconscious performances based on facets of her personality that she exaggerates and elaborates on as necessary. They exist because Shallan uses them to compartmentalise facts about herself and parts of her identity that she doesn’t want to (or can’t) deal with.

Shallan has already integrated Veil, which involved her accepting her painful past and embracing the part of her personality that loves skulduggery and getting involved in shady business. I think Radiant represents the part of Shallan that is (or has the potential to be) heroic and powerful in a more traditional sense. It’s something Shallan can’t imagine being unless she mentally detaches her main personality from the ‘hero’ part.

Dealing with Radiant will mean integrating, or learning to healthily coexist with, everything she represents. That means Shallan will have to change her perception of herself. She won’t see herself as a sheltered, immature, slightly inept girl any longer, but as a fully fledged Lightweaver.

If Radiant were to turn out to be a completely separate entity from Shallan, it would derail that whole plot-line.

[Reckless Disregard]

The WOB is that Honorblades are early prototypes, they don’t have a Spren to bond (aren’t Sprens), just self aware (ie: NB).

It is likely that Shallan killed her mom with Testament, as Testament is a spren. 

So Testament cannot be an Honorblade.

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 8/1/2024 at 11:55 AM, Reckless Disregard said:

The WOB is that Honorblades are early prototypes, they don’t have a Spren to bond (aren’t Sprens), just self aware (ie: NB).

It is likely that Shallan killed her mom with Testament, as Testament 

So Testament cannot be an Honorblade.

My idea isn’t that Testament is an Honorblade

My theory is that Shallan actually has 3 blades 

1. Pattern: Full bonded

2. Testament: was never placed in the safe. Instead, Shallan went to the garden to meet Testament after the incident. Due to the oddity of child oath breaking, Shallan was always able to resummoning Testament.

3. Chana’s honorblade was placed in the safe and then retrieved by Shallan prior to Shallan leaving to go find Jasnah. 

Shallan thinks she had two blades because she was told by Pattern that the blade in the safe must have been Testament. Pattern is wrong. Pattern was not a witness to the events, does not know how semi-live deadeye bonds work, and didn’t know about Chana 

A bit of a crack theory I know. But it could be true. 

Edited August 7, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Ashbringer he/him]

One thing: as mentioned in the WaT Prologue, Chana's Honorblade is very distinctive, with a bifurcated blade.

I'm not sure if that means Shallan should recognize it, or if someone else, but it definitely doesn't look like an ordinary Shardblade (or a normal blade). Based on Szeth wielding Jezrien's Honorblade and also Azure's blade, Rosharan's aren't the best judge of weird-Shardblade-ness, but it is a thought.

But the Prologue also drew specific attention to Chana and her Honorblade... hmm...

 

I don't think Radiant would be an external entity for a few other reasons (the main reason is Shallan has been moving more towards a realistic portrayal of DiD as the series goes on, and 1/3 of her main alters being something else would be somewhat of a detriment to that). But "Mother's Soul" could definitely mean a great many things if Chana really does end up being Shallan's mom. And one of those alters being more capable of actually using the Blade could make sense. Wouldn't be the first time Radiant's kept secrets.

[teknopathetic he/him]

53 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

i don't think Radiant would be an external entity for a few other reasons (the main reason is Shallan has been moving more towards a realistic portrayal of DiD as the series goes on, and 1/3 of her main alters being something else would be somewhat of a detriment to that). But "Mother's Soul" could definitely mean a great many things if Chana really does end up being Shallan's mom. And one of those alters being more capable of actually using the Blade could make sense. Wouldn't be the first time Radiant's kept secrets.

We haven’t learned what Shallan’s parents were bickering about. All we know is that it had to do something with Shallan’s future. I wouldn’t be surprised if Shallan had a little something extra that explains what’s going down. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

3. Chana’s honorblade was placed in the safe and then retrieved by Shallan prior to Shallan leaving to go find Jasnah. 

Would it fit? I mean I guess it could be stabbed way into the wall rather than only the tip like she claims, but I'm not sure why she'd misremember it as "small" instead of just assuming that her own Blade looked like it did, especially if you're suggesting she was mundanely wrong about it due to Pattern's words rather than repressing the truth.

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Would it fit? I mean I guess it could be stabbed way into the wall rather than only the tip like she claims, but I'm not sure why she'd misremember it as "small" instead of just assuming that her own Blade looked like it did, especially if you're suggesting she was mundanely wrong about it due to Pattern's words rather than repressing the truth.

Shallan ain’t very clear either in the size. In Chapter 88 of WoR she calls it a sword as well:

”Her father barging in. Mother's friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan.And then ...And then a sword in Shallan's hands”

The safe could be something akin to a rifle safe maybe and is larger than we think. 
 

Its odd to think why Lyn would put a shard dagger in the safe. Or that he wouldn’t be baffled at what a shard dagger was. Or why he would think Shallan wouldn’t just resume in it. As far as we know he never asked Shallan not to summon the blade again. It seems like he sort of thought the item in the safe was actually locked away forever. 

Edited August 8, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Would it fit? I mean I guess it could be stabbed way into the wall rather than only the tip like she claims, but I'm not sure why she'd misremember it as "small" instead of just assuming that her own Blade looked like it did, especially if you're suggesting she was mundanely wrong about it due to Pattern's words rather than repressing the truth.

Honorblades have been stated to be fairly small compared to regular Shardblades. It certainly seems like she’d had her Shardblade by then, one way or another, so maybe it seemed small in comparison to Testament.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan ain’t very clear either in the size. In Chapter 88 of WoR she calls it a sword as well:

Oh sure, I don't think it's a knife. But an Honorblade is anything but small.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Or that he wouldn’t be baffled at what a shard dagger was.

Dude married a Herald, him knowing about Radiant Shardblades doesn't seem too surprising imo (especially if Dreder really was a Skybreaker acolyte, though Mraize could be lying). Besides, we don't see his immediate reaction anyway, the flashback picks up after the sword is already in the safe.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Or why he would think Shallan wouldn’t just resume in it. As far as we know he never asked Shallan not to summon the blade again.

How does her bonding an Honorblade solve this? And again, the flashback picks up after the sword is already in the safe. And if it were built specifically to hold a Blade, why wouldn't it be aluminum?

16 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Honorblades have been stated to be fairly small compared to regular Shardblades. It certainly seems like she’d had her Shardblade by then, one way or another, so maybe it seemed small in comparison to Testament.

Jezrien's is still five feet long, Shardblades are just usually around six. I assume Shallan's would be smaller since a sword twice as tall as you are is... unwieldy, but maybe eleven year old her is just a really competent swordswoman, who knows.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Jezrien's is still five feet long, Shardblades are just usually around six. I assume Shallan's would be smaller since a sword twice as tall as you are is... unwieldy, but maybe eleven year old her is just a really competent swordswoman, who knows.

Deadeye Shardblades can shift size based on the Shardbearer, I wouldn't be overly surprised if the Honorblades could do the same if necessary, if not more so because they can be used on Oathgates. (Especially if the size of Jezrien's Honorblade is part of Szeth's own perception of it as more a normal Shardblade, same as the ten heartbeats was. In the pseudo-canon Herald artworks, the Honorblades are more normal sword sized.)

Would Shallan know how to do that, no idea.