Will technologic advancement be stunted or accelerated?

[AltonicKeys he/him]

With all this fancy schmancy magic stuff happening, would Cosmere planets make faster strides in technology than us, or would they be slower than we were? I'm just talking about plain, old fashioned Earth stuff, without all that Invested jazz. No Awakened computers, no fabrials, just normal electricity and stuff.

For Scadrial, for example, normal people could either want to be like coinshots, and develop planes and spaceships faster to catch up with them, and use allomantic conveniences to help their research, or they could just rely on coinshots and take longer to research planes.

Or Komashi, would they be perfectly content with Hion, and never even dream of traditional electricity, or would they grow tired of their 2 color screens and develop technicolor TVs overnight?

This is just a silly thought, and could apply to any planet or civilization you want.

[Quantus he/him]

It depends on the planet in question, but it can go both ways case by case, and it'll depend on that era and planet's (edit:) magic, cultures, and shard.

Scadrial has a heavy focus on metallurgy to it might progress faster than some there, but then Harmony claims his meddling made them less innovative than they would have otherwise been technologically.  Roshar is behind in a lot of basic things thanks to Soulcasting solving a lot of problems that Science would have to wrestle with, but it looks like they could skip over Semiconductor development entirely and still reach fabrial-based Computers; they already have gem-based "Read Only" information storage so they probably wont mess with the magnetic-based storage we used to rely on so much.  

But our history suggests that sort of development will happen in unpredictable bursts, often motivated by Wars.  For instance:  Earth would not have Computers today if not for the nazi Enigma Machine encryption motivating Alan Turing to develop the concept into a working model, and then the Cold War and Space Race motivating two Superpower nations to continue developing things like computing machines, semiconductors, and Nuclear Power.  Without the pissing match between the USSR and USA driving the space race, we most likely wouldnt have any orbital presence at all, and thus we wouldnt have any satellite telecommunication.  

Edited May 21 by Quantus

[Duxredux he/him]

How do I put this... I feel like this view of technological advancement as an expected progression is incomplete. The next paragraph is my views from listening to people and historians talk about this (like the YouTube channel Technology Connections), but I'm not an expert.

 From my viewpoint, technological advancement is intrinsically tied to the challenges and existing technology of the given period in history. In particular, technology develops as innovators work to solve the challenges currently troubling the people of that time and place. For example, in the U.S., an electricity bill used to be called the "light bill" - because the main purpose of bringing electricity into homes was to replace the rather unpleasant dim, smokey, and hot options of the day: gas or candle lighting. Notably we see electric lighting as one of the first indoor uses of electricity in Elendel for Era 2 Scadrial. Bringing reliable lighting into the average household was the push for the power grid - it was after that power source was established that there was a market for electronic consumer products that have become household staples. There's a lot of drivers of innovation, disease, famine, competing companies, competitions, and yes, war. I won't elaborate on every point, but it's worth noting that innovation sometimes can be predicted, as research and development departments, well, exist. Sometimes innovation and technological advancement can be incredibly consistent - Gordon Moore once stated that the number of transistors that can be fit into an integrated circuit will double about every 2 years with the results being consistent enough in the last 50 years for this concept to be dubbed Moore's Law - in part because the processing power of computers is something that has not hit a ceiling yet with the amount of data available to be processed and utilized for economic gain. 

So... I'd say that measuring when IRL gets developed as a measure of how "accelerated" or "stunted" a planet's technological progression is incomplete and may be better viewed as when each planet develops solutions to similar problems that we saw IRL. It wouldn't surprise me if Roshar never developed an electric power grid at all because "that Invested jazz" solves many of the problems that we use electricity. Rosharan currency naturally provides smokeless lighting. Heating fabrials provide indoor heating and cooking appliances. The tech used by the Reachers in Shadesmar implies that water can be gathered by fabrial tech - the one they used gathers water via condensation. Transportation and communication are currently addressed by Oathgates providing teleporation and spanreeds respectively. Beyond that, the Highstorms that deposit hardened layers of crem over the whole planet add significant complications to creating a cost effective and reliable power grid. Power, gas, and plumbing lines that have to be embedded through hardened crem and survive Highstorms is likely possible but would need to be engineered beyond what most municipalities need to plan for IRL. The biggest reason I can think of that electricity could compete with Stormlight as an energy source is the consistent availability even during a Weeping, but it's a hard sell when the majority of the year power is globally accessible and free to boot with each Highstorm.

 

[Rorzikel]

Technology is the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, doesn’t matter if that science was on gas powered engines or unsealed metalminds. I imagine whatever they can’t attain with investiture they’ll develop mundane substitutes, but our real life methods hold no intrinsic superiority if equal results can be gained.

[Isilel]

On 5/21/2024 at 9:19 PM, AltonicKeys said:

normal people could either want to be like coinshots, and develop planes and spaceships faster to catch up with them, and use allomantic conveniences to help their research, or they could just rely on coinshots and take longer to research planes.

 

I don't see how Coinshots could be seen as fulfilling the same function as planes? Though if Northern Scadrians don't crack the secret of mechanical applications of Metal arts and don't find their own source of harmonium, they are likely to develop Earth equivalent aviation, now that there is a very strong reason to do so. 

Frankly, I am a bit disappointed how the Basin seems to develop along the same lines as US transport-wise even though the starting situation was very different. For one, it is unclear to me why Scadrial even has mineral oil, leave alone in sufficient abundance for rapid motorisation depicted. For another, the distances in the Basin aren't even comparable and trains/channels are wholly sufficient for longer trips.

Where are the bicycles, which were an important personal means of transport in Europe for many decades in the 20-ieth century? And which certain types of Metalborn could use to much greater effect than normal humans? Where are the blimps, which would have been much easier and safer to operate with a crew of Metalborn? Where is muscle-powered flight, which, again, is very difficult iRL, but pewterarms, Iron Ferrings, etc. should have been able to achieve? Maybe even Coinshots and Lurchers if they used their allomancy to power propellers in addition to/instead of muscle power. 

Personally, I'd prefer to see either exotic technologies in the Cosmere, or technologies that existed or were potentially doable iRL, but got sidelined for one reason or another.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

For one, it is unclear to me why Scadrial even has mineral oil, leave alone in sufficient abundance for rapid motorisation depicted.

They don't have it, or rather they don't use it. It's not a fossil fuel:

Spoiler

Cadmium (paraphrased)

You're in Houston, questions of Oil & Gas and energy sources will be naturally be bandied about.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Naturally.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Is the gasoline on Scadrial a fossil fuel or biodiesel?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Oh. Hmm. Well It's fossil fue... No. What they're using now is mostly biodiesel, I think. It's not something we really talked out.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Ok, we had a whole thread on 17th Shard and even discussed how scientifically fossil fuels could have been put into place during the Catacendre.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, fossil fuels are possible, and I don't want to seem like I'm clearly giving credence to those that believe in a Young Earth, but Scadrial is a relatively young planet. Relatively.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Young Earth doesn't bother me, though I know I'm not the majority.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial is it being produced? No mention of refineries in Elendel or the Roughs.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Where on Scadrial... Well it's... I'm going to have to RAFO that for now. It starts to touch on questions of the future as they will need more fuels for travel and they'll need to look for different sources.

Calamity Houston signing (Feb. 24, 2016)

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 5/25/2024 at 12:26 PM, Isilel said:

Frankly, I am a bit disappointed how the Basin seems to develop along the same lines as US transport-wise even though the starting situation was very different. For one, it is unclear to me why Scadrial even has mineral oil, leave alone in sufficient abundance for rapid motorisation depicted. For another, the distances in the Basin aren't even comparable and trains/channels are wholly sufficient for longer trips.

They do have coal. We see coal miners in Era 1. However, they have very fertile farmlands. For luxury applications biofuels can be a viable alternative.

Scadrial takes aristocracy seriously. I cannot see them avoiding a personal means of transportation for the rich and privileged.

On 5/25/2024 at 12:26 PM, Isilel said:

Where are the bicycles, which were an important personal means of transport in Europe for many decades in the 20-ieth century?

Drowned in canals and priced out by a shortage of rubber? Scadrial lacks true tropical rainforests, at least as far as the Basin knows. Hence no rubber. If you couple that with an excellent network of canals, bikes never were cheap enough or the pain to find alternatives worse enough.

On 5/25/2024 at 12:26 PM, Isilel said:

Personally, I'd prefer to see either exotic technologies in the Cosmere, or technologies that existed or were potentially doable iRL, but got sidelined for one reason or another.

You will probably see that on Roshar rather than Scadrial, as they have better external applications. Drilling tunnels, for example, is far cheaper on Roshar than on Scadrial. They may actually develop trains in evacuated pipes.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence no rubber

How do they have cars, then? And rapid explosion in their numbers between AoL and TLM? 

Not sure why the channels would have precluded wide adoption of bicycles, this didn't happen iRL in, say, Netherlands.

They will have magi-tech on Roshar, sure, but it would have been more interesting if North Scadrial, while more technologically Earth-like in this Era , still went for twists on the theme, the paths almost trodden, etc., rather than just copying North American development, despite all the differences in pre-existing conditions. 

Ditto flora and fauna, honestly. Somehow in the cosmere they are either wholly outlandish or boringly mundane. What about all the exciting extinct pre-historic stuff? 

[AltonicKeys he/him]

2 minutes ago, Isilel said:

How do they have cars, then?

They could just use some other non-rubber material. Cork, bamboo, other oils that can make rubber-like materials and stuff

Edited June 4 by AltonicKeys

[+Oltux72 he/him]

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

How do they have cars, then? And rapid explosion in their numbers between AoL and TLM?

By directly going to synthetical rubber from butadien probably. There are relacements for natural rubber. They are just not as cheap under early industrial conditions. For luxury goods, which automobiles are at such income levels, that does not matter much. If we are talking about cheap mass produced stuff like bicycle tires, it does matter.

46 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not sure why the channels would have precluded wide adoption of bicycles, this didn't happen iRL in, say, Netherlands.

Directly speaking it does not. However, for as long as punted barges can satisfy much of the need for public transport, a lack of bikes is not that keenly felt. Add to that that with extreme fertility you will have a much higher fraction of urban population, which means that mass transit is more important than bikes.

 

52 minutes ago, Isilel said:

They will have magi-tech on Roshar, sure,

Not just that. You need a wierdly shaped part made from an exotic alloy? Have a wax model soulcast into the material you want.

55 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Ditto flora and fauna, honestly. Somehow in the cosmere they are either wholly outlandish or boringly mundane. What about all the exciting extinct pre-historic stuff? 

Lions and giraffes are boring?

[KelsierApologist She/her]

On 6/4/2024 at 10:53 AM, Isilel said:

Not sure why the channels would have precluded wide adoption of bicycles, this didn't happen iRL in, say, Netherlands.

I think this was due to the Lord Ruler’s construction of channels, and how much they were a major method of transportation in the final empire. 

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, KelsierApologist said:

I think this was due to the Lord Ruler’s construction of channels, and how much they were a major method of transportation in the final empire. 

 

They were a major method of transportation in the Low Countries since Middle Ages too. I mean, history didn't prevent Era 2 Northeners from inventing cars, why not bicycles, which were invented and came into widespread use earlier than cars iRL.

 

On 6/4/2024 at 6:49 PM, Oltux72 said:

. For luxury goods, which automobiles are at such income levels, that does not matter much.

 

Bicycles began as luxury goods as well. Obviously, even with more expensive tires, they'd still be more affordable than cars and therefore accessible to merely  well-to-do and  middle class. And reliance on trains and barges for long-distance transport should have made them more attractive, not less. Hard to take a car along on one of those, but you'd still need to cross the distance between the station and your final destination, somehow.

Oh, well.

 

On 6/4/2024 at 6:49 PM, Oltux72 said:

Lions and giraffes are boring?

 

Yes? Why not have elephant birds, moa, giant teratorns, short-faced bears, horned gophers, mammoths, etc?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 6/4/2024 at 4:27 PM, Oltux72 said:

Drowned in canals and priced out by a shortage of rubber? Scadrial lacks true tropical rainforests, at least as far as the Basin knows. Hence no rubber. If you couple that with an excellent network of canals, bikes never were cheap enough or the pain to find alternatives worse enough.

@Isilel is right. Bicycles should be very usefull in Basin, because it is not very large region with good roads. Also, first bicycles didnt even have tires. Sure, is nice to have them, but bicycle is perfectly usable without them.

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 5/22/2024 at 5:19 AM, AltonicKeys said:

 

Or Komashi, would they be perfectly content with Hion, and never even dream of traditional electricity, or would they grow tired of their 2 color screens and develop technicolor TVs overnight?

Can Hion lines mix?

Cause... you know. If they can, then the only new line they'd need is yellow and they could mix any colour you want.

Try it, go get magenta, cyan and yellow paint and start mixing it and name me a colour you can't hit. You can't because those are the true primary colours according to our eyeballs. 

Brando has also said if there were a third Hion it'd be yellow.

My point: they may not need technicolour, just a third Hion.