Topic of the second half of Stormlight Archive

[+Oltux72]

Now that SA#5 is basically written, yet not published, it is time to think about the back half. It will need a basic conflict. What will it be? I can give some scenarios

• Odium is set loose and has started a war to conquer the Cosmere. They are a series of war novels
• Ba-Ado-Mishram needs to be restored
• Cultivation's master plan comes to fruition
• Odium is facing an uprising of his Fused and Unmade
• Somebody does something drastic with a Dawnshard in SA#5 and the second half is about the aftermath

Strictly speaking these options are not mutually exclusive. What do you think?

[RoyalBeeMage]

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody does something drastic with a Dawnshard in SA#5 and the second half is about the aftermath

yes... i bet hoid gives a dawn shard to sigzil and odium tries to steal it and give it to a fused...

[The Sibling]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• Odium is facing an uprising of his Fused and Unmade

I think this would be really really cool. I am definitely hoping for more fused and radiants fighting on the same side. Even better would be regular singers.

[Quantus]

• Honor is reformed, Cultivation "retires".
• The Oathpact's successor enchantment is Forged. 
• Several Big Twist reveals about the Migration generation and the events surrounding the dawn of the War, how the Singers agreed to be Fused and the Heralds were needed all in less than a generation, etc.  

[The Stick]

The twists you suggest Quantus are probably more second half stuff once we get Herald flashbacks.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

• Honor is reformed, Cultivation "retires".

Why? I know people keep saying this, but nobody ever gives a reason why anybody would attempt that. This is certainly not easy and likely not entirely safe. For what reason would people make the effort?

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

• The Oathpact's successor enchantment is Forged. 

Again, what issue does this solve? They went to great lengths to get a treaty that would replace the Oathpact, but then people keep suggesting that for no good reason people try to put themselves into a position that got their predecessors tortured for centuries, which worked as long as it worked only due to circumstances unlikely to repeat themselves and ultimately failed. Why would anybody try to repeat it?

[Quantus]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? I know people keep saying this, but nobody ever gives a reason why anybody would attempt that. This is certainly not easy and likely not entirely safe. For what reason would people make the effort?

Cultivation has made personal Visitations to three character and each of them have a specific conenction to one of the three Shards on Roshar.  The Theory is that Todium was prepared to replace Rayse, Dalinar was prepared to Reform Honor (as Honor or as Unity) and that Lift is being prepared to take up Cultivation so that Koravari can retire. As to why anyone would want that, ee know it's considered dangerous to leave shards worth of Investiture alone too long so the OG shards would presumably want to keep them in Vessel Hands, and we know she was Mates with Tanavast so she'd expected to be together forever but may not want to keep holding the Office for a literal Eternity without him (especially with his Ghost hanging around).  Retirement and a new pursuit makes a lot of sense for somebody in that place. 

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, what issue does this solve? They went to great lengths to get a treaty that would replace the Oathpact, but then people keep suggesting that for no good reason people try to put themselves into a position that got their predecessors tortured for centuries, which worked as long as it worked only due to circumstances unlikely to repeat themselves and ultimately failed. Why would anybody try to repeat it?

Not repeat it, and not make the same mistakes, but make some new Oathpact to put limits back on Surgebinding seems very much something they'll want to consider.  The Current Bargain addresses some of the restraining Odium aspects of the original Oathpact but that was not it's only effect.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

  

1 hour ago, The Stick said:

The twists you suggest Quantus are probably more second half stuff once we get Herald flashbacks.

Right.  Is that not the topic of this thread?

 

 

Edited May 6 by Quantus

[+Oltux72]

32 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Cultivation has made personal Visitations to three character and each of them have a specific conenction to one of the three Shards on Roshar.  The Theory is that Todium was prepared to replace Rayse, Dalinar was prepared to Reform Honor (as Honor or as Unity) and that Lift is being prepared to take up Cultivation so that Koravari can retire.

I am sorry, but where is the sense in that? Why would Cultivation wait for a desolation to retire? Why would reforming Honor be necessary for her retirement?

 

34 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Not repeat it, and not make the same mistakes, but make some new Oathpact to put limits back on Surgebinding seems very much something they'll want to consider.  The Current Bargain addresses some of the restraining Odium aspects of the original Oathpact but that was not it's only effect. 

I am afraid I need to point out that the Oathpact predates the rise of Surgebinders on Roshar by several desolations.

[Quantus]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am sorry, but where is the sense in that? Why would Cultivation wait for a desolation to retire? Why would reforming Honor be necessary for her retirement?

I cant really claim to know her motivations from the two scenes we've had, but the OG shards dont seem keen on leaving a Shard's power unheld for too long and risk it gaining sentience on it's own, even Rayse agreed if the Dor is any indication (though Im sure he had his own reasons too).  I think she just plain wanted Rayse dead, personally, for killing her mate.  Past that she could have lots of reasons for not wanting to leave Honor's future up to chance (anything from Futuresight warning her of a specific outcome to simple Sentimentality for her dead mate's final job/tasks/responsibilities to having respect for the Role of Roshar's God to a sense of Duty to the Goal of the Original Shattering (depending on what motivated it).  

I dont think she waited for a Desolation so much as she was waiting for the Destined Replacement Vessels to be born.   Or really, she waited for her Moment to Kill Rayse and everything else is preparing for things After that prime goal. Also this is the first Desolation since they lost Honor, so it might have been her first practical opportunity to accomplish what she's after.

And for the most Tinfoil Answer I can offer:  Maybe she didnt actually wait.  What if she's tried before, but last time it had unintentional consequences, as implied/foreshadowed in Hoid's Story of Queen Tsa when the Green celestial entity wanted to be mortal for a day but accidentally got stuck longer than she wanted and almost lost her place/power entirely.  So this time around she's not trusting anyone and is instead taking her time to Grow/Cultivate her own surrogate/successor.  

 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I need to point out that the Oathpact predates the rise of Surgebinders on Roshar by several desolations.

I dont think that is true, actually. The Oathpact was established somewhere within the original lifetimes of the Heralds, which puts it after the Migration and the formation of the Fused from singer but within the original lifetimes of the Ten, who all (but Ash) are confirmed to have been born on Ashyn.  Prior to that they had access to some unknown form of Ashyn Surgebinding (and specifically something analogous to a Bondsmith and Elsecalling for the actual Migration, per WOB) but the Rosharan/Radiant version emerged sometime after the Ten were empowered as Heralds with the Oathpact and given the Honorblades.  

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

I cant really claim to know her motivations from the two scenes we've had, but the OG shards dont seem keen on leaving a Shard's power unheld for too long and risk it gaining sentience on it's own, even Rayse agreed if the Dor is any indication (though Im sure he had his own reasons too).

Yes, but Honor is splintered. There is no shard to pick up. They'd have to develop a new procedure to do something that has never been done during or in the aftermath of a serious crisis for no gain to themselves. That just makes no sense. Nor does it make sense for Cultivation to want to do this. Why do a lot of work to give to somebody what her husband once held for no benefit to herself?

In fact you'd have Jasnah Kholin, a famous atheist, who is working to limit the personal power of royalty, work to create a god. That absolutely makes no sense.

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

I think she just plain wanted Rayse dead, personally, for killing her mate.

That makes sense and she'd need a replacement vessel.

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

Past that she could have lots of reasons for not wanting to leave Honor's future up to chance (anything from Futuresight warning her of a specific outcome to simple Sentimentality for her dead mate's final job/tasks/responsibilities to having respect for the Role of Roshar's God to a sense of Duty to the Goal of the Original Shattering (depending on what motivated it). 

(Sel, Threnody)

Spoiler

I am afraid the Cosmere already features a lot of splintered shards. For Honor to be an exception there needs to be some stronger evidence.

 

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

I dont think that is true, actually. The Oathpact was established somewhere within the original lifetimes of the Heralds, which puts it after the Migration and the formation of the Fused from singer but within the original lifetimes of the Ten, who all (but Ash) are confirmed to have been born on Ashyn.  Prior to that they had access to some unknown form of Ashyn Surgebinding (and specifically something analogous to a Bondsmith and Elsecalling for the actual Migration, per WOB) but the Rosharan/Radiant version emerged sometime after the Ten were empowered as Heralds with the Oathpact and given the Honorblades.  

Yes, but the Stormfather told us that Ishar needed to use threats to make the Radiants and Spren accept the need for oaths. They needed to accept it. I would quite confidently state that the current coalition would for sure fracture if a Kholin tried to impose that now.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but Honor is splintered. There is no shard to pick up. They'd have to develop a new procedure to do something that has never been done during or in the aftermath of a serious crisis for no gain to themselves. That just makes no sense.

There are Bondsmiths, and they are no longer restricted as they used to be. Unrestricted Bondsmiths are the most dangerous thing in Cosmere.
And we already have a scene of Bondsmith repairing a broken temple, which could be foreshadowing.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

 Nor does it make sense for Cultivation to want to do this. Why do a lot of work to give to somebody what her husband once held for no benefit to herself?

People (and dragons) can do things that are not of benefit to themselves, it is called altruism.
And Cultivation is about improving things, growing them. Cultivating Vessels seems right in her ballpark.
 

 

 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

There are Bondsmiths, and they are no longer restricted as they used to be. Unrestricted Bondsmiths are the most dangerous thing in Cosmere.
And we already have a scene of Bondsmith repairing a broken temple, which could be foreshadowing.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself: Why would they want to? Stating that a Bondsmith could potentially do this, if he or she had all the pieces, which is not the case, does not answer the question. For what reason would they want to reassemble Honor? They spent thousands of years without it. It does not look like a vital task. Yet it would involve handling the power of a god to some unchecked person. Why would you do that?

1 hour ago, therunner said:

People (and dragons) can do things that are not of benefit to themselves, it is called altruism.

If it helps people. Honor is splintered. Reassembling it is no more an act of altruism than repairing a piece of funiture smashed to pieces, that nobody wants, would be.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And Cultivation is about improving things, growing them. Cultivating Vessels seems right in her ballpark.

Then why only now?

Edited May 7 by Oltux72
typo

[Quantus]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but Honor is splintered. There is no shard to pick up. They'd have to develop a new procedure to do something that has never been done during or in the aftermath of a serious crisis for no gain to themselves. That just makes no sense. Nor does it make sense for Cultivation to want to do this. Why do a lot of work to give to somebody what her husband once held for no benefit to herself?

In fact you'd have Jasnah Kholin, a famous atheist, who is working to limit the personal power of royalty, work to create a god. That absolutely makes no sense.

That makes sense and she'd need a replacement vessel.

(Sel, Threnody)

  Reveal hidden contents

I am afraid the Cosmere already features a lot of splintered shards. For Honor to be an exception there needs to be some stronger evidence.

 

Shattering of Shards is reversable per WOB, no exception necessary.  Unless you are saying Cultivation needs some specific motivation to deal with the mess right in front of her to explain why she doesnt set off on a crusade across the cosmere to repair all the Shattered Shards out there as well?  For all we know that's exactly her plan, however we are given to understand that it would be catastrophic for her to attempt to take the Cultivation Shard itself away from Roshar (at least as damaging as it'd be for Odium to leave).   

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, at the risk of repeating myself: Why would they want to? Stating that a Bondsmith could potentially do this, if he or she had all the pieces, which is not the case, does not answer the question. For what reason would they want to reassemble Honor? They spent thousands of years without it. It does not look like a vital task. Yet it would involve handling the power of a god to some unchecked person. Why would you do that?

If it helps people. Honor is splintered. Reassembling it is no more an act of altruism than repairing a piece of funiture smashed to pieces, that nobody wants, would be.

Then why only now?

She could not act unilaterally because she isnt all-powerful, and only recently did Odium break the stalemate and set all these new events in motion.  

 

And as far as Why would she do any of this, Again we cant guess all her motivations from two scenes, but Duty would explain it, as would Altruism, or Fear/Paranoia, or even just the accumulated Pressure of her Intent.  The Intent had supposedly pushed Tanavast far enough to forget that people can Change (leading to the root flaw in the original Oathpact), Cultivation might literally be unable to stop herself from planning for and acting toward a specific desired Future.  

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Shattering of Shards is reversable per WOB, no exception necessary.  Unless you are saying Cultivation needs some specific motivation to deal with the mess right in front of her to explain why she doesnt set off on a crusade across the cosmere to repair all the Shattered Shards out there as well?

It seems we are talking past each other.

What mess? Honor was splintered thousands of years ago. No major ill effects from that are observable. There is no mess. Hence a very simple question: Does anybody have a practical reason to restore Honor?

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It seems we are talking past each other.

What mess? Honor was splintered thousands of years ago. No major ill effects from that are observable. There is no mess. Hence a very simple question: Does anybody have a practical reason to restore Honor?

Agreed, but Ill try one more time:

1000 years is barely anything in the timescale of Shards.  I dont really know how to argue against your assertion that there are now negative consequences of Honor being shattered since those consequences seem to me to be the central theme of the whole series has been exploring, so I dont know how to make a better argument than the stories themselves.

But regardless of what the predicted consequences may or may not be, an unattended Shard is very much a Random Variable that can develop into lots of different things.  Even for a normal person not supernaturally warped into the Embodiment of Cultivation that could be worrisome and motivate them to take steps to reverse it before facing an incomprehensible and inhuman Shard-level spren, or a semi-sentient Power-monster, or a weaponized prize for the Ire some other power-hungry mortal to scoop up.  For Cultivation, allowing such things to go wild and unattended may well be something she is no longer capable of allowing.  Or she could be motivated by Altruism or Fear or Duty or sentimentality, or any combination thereof.  

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

 

 

 

[+Oltux72]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 

1000 years is barely anything in the timescale of Shards.  I dont really know how to argue against your assertion that there are now negative consequences of Honor being shattered since those consequences seem to me to be the central theme of the whole series has been exploring, so I dont know how to make a better argument than the stories themselves.

Now I am wondering whether we read the same books. Roshar lost 90% of its population multiple times while Honor was alive. The horrible catastrophes are the result of intact shards acting against each other. Splintering them is the best thing you can do in terms of your own survival.

[therunner]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, at the risk of repeating myself: Why would they want to? Stating that a Bondsmith could potentially do this, if he or she had all the pieces, which is not the case, does not answer the question. For what reason would they want to reassemble Honor? They spent thousands of years without it.
...

Why would you do that?

Because Honor is their god, and many believe in it?
Because enemy (Singers) have Shard on their side, so having one would help level the playing field?
Because it is better than alternative (see The Evil, Dor plasma storm, etc.)?
Because they might feel compelled by their Oaths (Unite, etc.)?

Take your pick, there is a lot of reasons.

Quote

It does not look like a vital task.

Enemy has a Shard on their side, having one to counter it is vital.

Quote

Yet it would involve handling the power of a god to some unchecked person.

At first sure. Eventually, checked by the Intent.
And handing that power to someone might be better alternative.

Quote

If it helps people. Honor is splintered. Reassembling it is no more an act of altruism than repairing a piece of funiture smashed to pieces, that nobody wants, would be.

Ehm, there is some difference between undirect power of god and broken chair.
One cannot get sentience on its own, nor create plasma storms.

It is altruism, because Honor has provable history of helping people (as far as we know).
They helped save humans after they destroyed Ashyn, they protected humans from Singers and Odium (Oathpact), and they are protecting wider Cosmere from Odium.

So yeah, restoring Honor is potentially altruistic act, both on Roshar level, and on Cosmere level.

And saying ''no one'' wants a Shard, is rather ridiculous statement.

Spoiler

Ire for example are clearly gunning for getting one (see their plot in SH).

 

Quote

Then why only now?

@Quantus answered that rather well.

Either she had to wait for optimal conditions for proper Vessel (which is not unusual for Shards), or it required Desolation to start again (so that Stormfather would be willing to Bond someone), in which case this is literally the first time she could even try this plan.

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now I am wondering whether we read the same books. Roshar lost 90% of its population multiple times while Honor was alive. The horrible catastrophes are the result of intact shards acting against each other. Splintering them is the best thing you can do in terms of your own survival.

Honor is the only reason humans (on Roshar) are still alive, if not for them they would be wiped out after Singers turned on them.
So no, Splintering of Honor is not the best outcome for humans, and in-fact restoring Honor would help.

Who knows what horrors unchecked Odium would wreak upon Cosmere.

Edited May 7 by therunner

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What mess? Honor was splintered thousands of years ago. No major ill effects from that are observable. There is no mess. Hence a very simple question: Does anybody have a practical reason to restore Honor?

Recreance wasn't a mess? Thousands of dead spren because Honor was too busy dying and was raving instead of assuring Radiants that they will be fine. The limitations placed on Surges by Honor are fading now, Ishar can do crazy stuff because he's unchained now - that's a mess waiting to happen, repetition of Ashyn is now a real danger. Honor's power in the hands of a mortal, the Bondsmith bonded with the Stormfather. It takes just one wrong person over centuries to allow Odium to leave and it will end with a disaster. Odium already has found a way to walk around the Oathpact, without Honor to counteract him he is just one step away from being freed. The contest of Champions doesn't remove Odium as a threat, it gives him permanently half of Roshar. That's a huge mess that never happened when Honor was alive.

Restoring Honor puts back some pressure on Odium. It gives him an enemy that will oppose his every action, unite and command humanity and spren against him. Honor will cloud Odium's future sight way better than Renarin can. There are many reasons why restoring Honor is a great idea, doing that to mess with Odium's plans is enough of a reason for me.

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Recreance wasn't a mess? Thousands of dead spren because Honor was too busy dying and was raving instead of assuring Radiants that they will be fine.

No honor, no problems with him telling people anything. This assumes that Cultivation does not exist and that the shards would have known what would happen and disapproved.

 

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

The limitations placed on Surges by Honor are fading now, Ishar can do crazy stuff because he's unchained now - that's a mess waiting to happen, repetition of Ashyn is now a real danger. Honor's power in the hands of a mortal, the Bondsmith bonded with the Stormfather. It takes just one wrong person over centuries to allow Odium to leave and it will end with a disaster.

So because there is too much power in the hands of a human being who can be killed, if worst comes to worst, you would give divine powers that come with an influence that warps the mind to another human being? Do I need to point out that the original Honor approved a plan that got 90% of Roshar's population killed over and over?

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

 It takes just one wrong person over centuries to allow Odium to leave and it will end with a disaster. Odium already has found a way to walk around the Oathpact, without Honor to counteract him he is just one step away from being freed. The contest of Champions doesn't remove Odium as a threat, it gives him permanently half of Roshar. That's a huge mess that never happened when Honor was alive.

Restoring Honor puts back some pressure on Odium. It gives him an enemy that will oppose his every action, unite and command humanity and spren against him. Honor will cloud Odium's future sight way better than Renarin can. There are many reasons why restoring Honor is a great idea, doing that to mess with Odium's plans is enough of a reason for me.

How is this in the interest of the people of Roshar? Why would they rekindle the cycle of Desolations to do that?

 

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Because Honor is their god, and many believe in it?

The Almighty is their god. A human being elevated to divine powers with the help of other human beings who needed to put back together an object to do so is not the god of Vorinism. If anything that is a sacriledge.

 

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Because enemy (Singers) have Shard on their side, so having one would help level the playing field?

The very point of the contest of champions is to remove that aid.

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Enemy has a Shard on their side, having one to counter it is vital.

And then? You restart the desolations. That is not desirable. I am sorry, but somebody has to say it: The rational long term strategy for the humans on Roshar is to negotiate a settlement with Odium that will let him depart in exchange for leaving Roshar alone and unharmed.

16 hours ago, therunner said:

It is altruism, because Honor has provable history of helping people (as far as we know).

They helped save humans after they destroyed Ashyn, they protected humans from Singers and Odium (Oathpact), and they are protecting wider Cosmere from Odium.

The Honor we know

• got his original Singer followers basically wiped out
• got Roshar plunged into a cycle of Desolations

Honor is a continued failure. They should be glad that he is dead and splintered.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No honor, no problems with him telling people anything. This assumes that Cultivation does not exist and that the shards would have known what would happen and disapproved.

You've asked for consequences of Splintering of Honor, I gave you them. This "telling people" is in the past. Recreance happened because Honor was dying and wasn't able to perform his duties as he did previously. If he wasn't Splintered, Recreance most likely wouldn't have happened. I have no idea why you brought Cultivation into this particular point. 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So because there is too much power in the hands of a human being who can be killed, if worst comes to worst, you would give divine powers that come with an influence that warps the mind to another human being?

Being a Shard chains you with limitations and rules you have to obey. Bondsmith Unchained can do things that even Shards can't. Honor restricted those things to prevent another Ashyn from happening, but Shards can't just blast a planet into oblivion, they are limited by their nature. Reformed Honor is a much lesser threat than a Bondsmith Unchained, especially if it falls into reasonable hands, like Dalinar.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Do I need to point out that the original Honor approved a plan that got 90% of Roshar's population killed over and over?

That was not Honor's plan at all. Did you forget, Honor didn't predict that Heralds would break their Oath? Honor assumed that once Heralds go to Braize, Fused and Voidspren would never come back to Roshar as they will be trapped on Braize for an eternity. You can't accuse him of being malicious when he just made a tragic mistake. He was blinded by his Intent. OB ch 38:

Quote

THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.
“He was like a spren himself,” Dalinar said. “You told me before—Odium too.”
HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL.

 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How is this in the interest of the people of Roshar? Why would they rekindle the cycle of Desolations to do that?

Because Odium said that once he is freed, he will kill every Splinter of Honor on Roshar and he will Splinter Cultivation as well. That's why this is in the interest of the people of Roshar. Nobody wants to restart Desolations, they need to stop them and bringing back Honor with a fresh Vessel is a first step to finding the ultimate solution that isn't an endless Desolation and the one that doesn't allow Odium, a force that wants the be the only god in Cosmere, to rampage freely among stars. OB ch 57:

Quote

“And what are the consequences of my releasing you?”
“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.”
[...]
“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

[therunner]

On 5/8/2024 at 9:32 AM, Oltux72 said:

The Almighty is their god. A human being elevated to divine powers with the help of other human beings who needed to put back together an object to do so is not the god of Vorinism. If anything that is a sacriledge.

And The Almighty is just another name for Shard Honor. That is why Heralds are sacred.
Heralds were also elevated, so having assistance of Herald to elevate someone would not be sacrilege, at least not in eyes of all.

Quote

The very point of the contest of champions is to remove that aid.

You asked for possible reasons for restoring Honor, this is one reason.
Them choosing another option to fight, does not mean this is not a possible reason.

Not to mention that contest of champions works only because Dalinar acts as if he was Honor (by virtue of being bonded to Stormfather who merged with cognitive aspect of Honor).

Quote

And then? You restart the desolations. That is not desirable. I am sorry, but somebody has to say it: The rational long term strategy for the humans on Roshar is to negotiate a settlement with Odium that will let him depart in exchange for leaving Roshar alone and unharmed.

If you think that is rational you were not paying attention.
Odium has little reason to negotiate if he is in position of strength, which he is so long as Honor is dead.
Only because Rayse is impatient (and Shard is struggling against him) did he agree to Contest.

Smart Odium would simply continue crushing humans till either Dalinar agreed, or he could manipulate e.g. Ishar to stealing Bondsmith and freeing Odium.

You seem to be missing the fact that Odium is malicious by nature, and his plan is to basically enslave the entire Rosharan civilization as his slave armies for Cosmere conquest. That is no desirable outcome.

Quote

The Honor we know

• got his original Singer followers basically wiped out
• got Roshar plunged into a cycle of Desolations

No, that was Odium quite likely in both cases.

Regarding point one, we have zero information on the circumstances of what happened after Ashynites arrived. Only that within ~20ish years after arriving, Honor has switched to supporting Humans, Odium supported Singers, and Honor created Heralds to protect humans. (You might notice that basically all acts of Honor are in order to protect something or someone).

Desolation are result of Odium trying to escape, and Honor being blinded by Intent. And the reason Odium is there, is that he wanted to kill both Honor and Cultivation.
Odium is the aggressor who arrived into the system intending to kill and splinter Shards, so it is Odium that plunged Roshar into Desolations.

No Odium, no Desolations.
No Honor, destroyed or enslaved Roshar.

Quote

Honor is a continued failure. They should be glad that he is dead and splintered.

I have no idea how you got that from reading the books.
Without Honor there would be no humans or singers left on Roshar!
They would be enslaved as Fused to Odium, waging war on everything in Cosmere, killing civilizations and Shards.

If you seriously think they should be happy about the sole reason for their continued survival being dead, then will all due respect (and I honestly don't know how else to phrase this) you might have some issues with reading comprehension.

Honor is the primary reason humans (and free Singers) even have a chance of survival, not to mention being the reason e.g. Scadrial was not wiped out by Odium millenia ago.

Blaming effectively a murder victim for not protecting everyone else but themselves well enough (since they you know...got killed protecting others), is certainly a bold statement.

Edited May 9 by therunner

[Aredor]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:32 AM, Oltux72 said:

And then? You restart the desolations. That is not desirable. I am sorry, but somebody has to say it: The rational long term strategy for the humans on Roshar is to negotiate a settlement with Odium that will let him depart in exchange for leaving Roshar alone and unharmed.

Um... no? I agree that this would be the best strategy for Roshar if they were only focused on themselves, but they aren't. Tanavast wished for Odium to remain on Roshar to protect the wider Cosmere. Dalinar knows this, and most likely the rest of the Coalition knows as well. The humans in this case are taking the essence of what it means to be honorable upon themselves: protecting the others ahead of themselves. In this case, it's not simply "We need to get Odium off of here as fast as possible," it's "We need to try to protect the Cosmere from this ancient primordial being." In this case, they are the best prepared to fight Odium. 

Also, we must remember that Dalinar literally could have released Odium at any time. He is the only one with the authority to speak on behalf of Honor. In the contest of champion agreement, Odium said that Dalinar could have released him from the ties Honor placed upon him that bound him to the system. Rayse also said that all he wants to do is get off "This miserable planet." Why would the Radiants want to let Odium do what he wants? 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

5 hours ago, Aredor said:

In the contest of champion agreement, Odium said that Dalinar could have released him from the ties Honor placed upon him that bound him to the system. Rayse also said that all he wants to do is get off "This miserable planet."

Not disagreeing at all, just want to point out that Rayse is lying here. Yes, he wants to get out of the Rosharan system - but not before killing Cultivation and the remaining splinters of Honor (the stormfather for example). 

 

Dalinar asks Rayse what he will do if released and he responds that his transformation of the realm (Roshar) will be substantial. One of the restrictions that Honor placed on Odium is that the shard is not able to directly interact with as many people as Rayse would like

MB era 1 spoilers:

Spoiler

We see in MB 1 that a Shard can easily wipe out all of the people on a planet. Ruin was only indirectly wiping out Scadrians (he was really trying to destroy the planet, the people were a side effect) by erupting the ashmounts and causing the earthquakes, etc - and that was a weakened shard.

If Odium was not restricted by Honor he would almost certainly smite a lot of people. He also mentions to Dalinar that there is a 'war of the gods' coming and he needs soldiers - hence the myth of the Tranquiline Halls. He is not simply looking to leave Roshar.

On 5/8/2024 at 3:32 AM, Oltux72 said:

Do I need to point out that the original Honor approved a plan that got 90% of Roshar's population killed over and over?

Honor is the only reason that 10% survived each time. Odium is there to wipe out their Gods and enslave the people for a cosmere wide war of the gods. 

Edited May 9 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Aredor]

12 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Not disagreeing at all, just want to point out that Rayse is lying here. Yes, he wants to get out of the Rosharan system - but not before killing Cultivation and the remaining splinters of Honor (the stormfather for example).

I'd think that while he'd love to kill Koravellium Avast, She Who Brings the Dews at Dawn /Stormfather, he'd be just fine with leaving them bound to the System and unable to stop him from murdering the other shards that are alive. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

7 minutes ago, Aredor said:

I'd think that while he'd love to kill Koravellium Avast, She Who Brings the Dews at Dawn /Stormfather, he'd be just fine with leaving them bound to the System and unable to stop him from murdering the other shards that are alive. 

I didnt mention this but I believe Odium is Invested in Roshar at this point (i think there is a wob). Even if he is released he can't just leave without injuring himself. Rayse knew this and thats why he was talking about the war of the gods. Instead of going around as a free shard to shatter the others, he will be more of a general presiding over his galactic army. Once the army has conquered the physical location, they will bring Odium with them spiritually, growing his influence without him ever needing to 'leave' Roshar.