[Stormlight 5] Ba ado mishram

[Alumínio]

How did they hide it in the cognitive realm?

[JustQuestin2004]

1 hour ago, Alumínio said:

How did they hide it in the cognitive realm?

I assume you're talking about the new preview chapters of Wind and Truth? You appear to be under a slight misconception.

Spoiler

Melishi, the ancient Bondsmith of the False Desolation, hid Mishram's gemstone in the Spiritual Realm, not the Cognitive, in order to ensure that no one could ever find it or retrieve it. How exactly he did this is currently unknown, my best guess is he used his Bondsmithing to open a Perpendicularity, Intended to use it to got to the Spiritual Realm, since WOB states you can use a Perpendicularity to go to the SR as well as the Cognitive, then just chucked Mishram's gemstone in it. Probably too basic though.

 

[Alumínio]

52 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I assume you're talking about the new preview chapters of Wind and Truth? You appear to be under a slight misconception.

  Hide contents

Melishi, the ancient Bondsmith of the False Desolation, hid Mishram's gemstone in the Spiritual Realm, not the Cognitive, in order to ensure that no one could ever find it or retrieve it. How exactly he did this is currently unknown, my best guess is he used his Bondsmithing to open a Perpendicularity, Intended to use it to got to the Spiritual Realm, since WOB states you can use a Perpendicularity to go to the SR as well as the Cognitive, then just chucked Mishram's gemstone in it. Probably too basic though.

 

Forgive me, I got confused when writing, I want to know how they actually stuck the stone in the spiritual realm, something that I thought was impossible, because there isn't a place for agreement wobs. Could it be that they made some mistake with the connection or converted the precious stone into a pure investiture?

[Redtree]

Wait which preview is this from? I don't remember reading anything about Melishi

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Redtree said:

Wait which preview is this from? I don't remember reading anything about Melishi

Melishi is the name of the only Bondsmith that was alive during the False Desolation, bonded with the Sibling. Here is his page on the Coppermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Melishi.

 

On 4/27/2024 at 6:58 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Spoiler

Melishi, the ancient Bondsmith of the False Desolation, hid Mishram's gemstone in the Spiritual Realm, not the Cognitive, in order to ensure that no one could ever find it or retrieve it. How exactly he did this is currently unknown, my best guess is he used his Bondsmithing to open a Perpendicularity, Intended to use it to got to the Spiritual Realm, since WOB states you can use a Perpendicularity to go to the SR as well as the Cognitive, then just chucked Mishram's gemstone in it. Probably too basic though.

 

The problem with this is that Melishi and the Sibling broke their bond before the imprisonment of BAM, he would be unable to open a perpendicularity without his powers. He might be able to use Cultivation's perpendicularity instead. Technically speaking Oathgates and Aon Tia (from Elantris) travel through SR, as in it distance doesn't matter, which allows for instantaneous travel. What if you open an Oathgate but sever the connection mid-transfer? Maybe you would get stuck in SR. I'm very intrigued to find out the answer.

Spoiler

Questioner

You've said previously that the Oathgates don't obey Physical Realm speed of light. Do they obey the speed of light in Shadesmar? Or are they tapping into the Spiritual Realm shenanigans?

Brandon Sanderson

They're tapping into Spiritual Realm shenanigans. An Elsecaller is capable of creating something that can teleport you faster than the speed of light.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

[BinarySecond]

Could it be something to do with the Shinovar Oathgate? Take it halfway there and shut it off, then close off all the other gates, apart from the one at Narak?

[Argenti]

8 hours ago, Redtree said:

Wait which preview is this from? I don't remember reading anything about Melishi

He is mentioned in the most recent preview as well. 
Can be read HERE

[Redtree]

54 minutes ago, Argenti said:

He is mentioned in the most recent preview as well. 
Can be read HERE

Thank you!

[CtrlAltDepressed]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

The problem with this is that Melishi and the Sibling broke their bond before the imprisonment of BAM, he would be unable to open a perpendicularity without his powers. He might be able to use Cultivation's perpendicularity instead. Technically speaking Oathgates and Aon Tia (from Elantris) travel through SR, as in it distance doesn't matter, which allows for instantaneous travel. What if you open an Oathgate but sever the connection mid-transfer? Maybe you would get stuck in SR. I'm very intrigued to find out the answer.

Ok this is a crazy theory, bear with me. Since the spiritual realm is time and space all compounded at once, and we have seen that Shallan is both being pointed to find BAM as well as drawing better potential versions of people, is it possible that the version of BAM that is extracted is not the one that was put in?

Isnt it possible that Shallan is able to bring a previous version of BAM from the spiritual realm, like i dont know, before she was unmade? This is crazy I know and Im sure @alder24 will gracefully destroy it but it was an interesting thought. 

[+Child of Hodor]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Melishi is the name of the only Bondsmith that was alive during the False Desolation, bonded with the Sibling. Here is his page on the Coppermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Melishi.

 

The problem with this is that Melishi and the Sibling broke their bond before the imprisonment of BAM, he would be unable to open a perpendicularity without his powers. He might be able to use Cultivation's perpendicularity instead. Technically speaking Oathgates and Aon Tia (from Elantris) travel through SR, as in it distance doesn't matter, which allows for instantaneous travel. What if you open an Oathgate but sever the connection mid-transfer? Maybe you would get stuck in SR. I'm very intrigued to find out the answer.

 

If Melishi was no longer a Bondsmith why did they think they needed him for the strike on BAM? I'm not disputing that fact it's just odd that he was needed. 

"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

It isn't necessarily that Melishi was a bond smith. It might have been that he just had a strong connection to the spiritual realm built by his previously being a bond smith. It might also be that he has some sort of relationship with BAM or else the unmade as a whole. Maybe he assisted in their creation unintentionally, or perhaps intentionally, regretted it later, and tried to fix it in some way.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Ok this is a crazy theory, bear with me. Since the spiritual realm is time and space all compounded at once, and we have seen that Shallan is both being pointed to find BAM as well as drawing better potential versions of people, is it possible that the version of BAM that is extracted is not the one that was put in?

Isnt it possible that Shallan is able to bring a previous version of BAM from the spiritual realm, like i dont know, before she was unmade? This is crazy I know and Im sure @alder24 will gracefully destroy it but it was an interesting thought. 

I have no idea. I doubt you could extract Mishram she used to be before Unmaking - it's a process that kills a spren, probably severs all Connections and destroys its identity. There is no going back from it and I doubt even Shards would be able to restore that. There is no backwards time travel in Cosmere, you can't bring back what's gone, even in SR. Time in SR still flows forward, it's just... weird.

Shallan's ability seems to be something like Soulcasting people into better versions of themselves, versions they can be if they give themselves a chance, versions from possible future/past. I was going to say it might be limited by how invested her target is, per "investiture resist investiture" law, but in this preview chapter Shallan's proved that's not the case by drawing Kalak. But that's just a drawing, Kalak didn't change after she drew him like that, but a drawing can inspire someone to change and be better - and that's what I think Shallan is doing. She draws Fortune to draw a better version of her "model" and this is such a good painting that it really inspires people to be like that, but that's not a magical inspiration, just emotional. I don't really think Shallan can just return with a better version of BAM, she can certainly draw her, maybe even understand her deeply and talk to her inspiring her to change, but that's the most I would expect to happen.

I really never even considered Mishram being imprisoned in SR, I have no idea what to expect from this plotline, particularly that Shallan and all her weirdness is involved, we can expect the unexpected. It's going to get really weird!

Spoiler

Xluxaeternax

Is the chronology through the whole cosmere fairly linear, or are there some Interstellar-relativity timey-wimey stuff at play?

Brandon Sanderson

Relativity is in play for sure, but I am not allowing time travel into the past in the cosmere. So while you might find places that move at slower/faster speeds, and while foreseeing future timelines is in play for sure, nobody will not be pulling serious time travel shenanigans.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 5, 2015)

 

 

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

If Melishi was no longer a Bondsmith why did they think they needed him for the strike on BAM? I'm not disputing that fact it's just odd that he was needed. 

"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs

He (Storms, I've always thought it's she, it sounds like a woman's name for me...) was the only one sufficiently Connected to Mishram who understood her deeply, which was something necessary for imprisonment in a gemstone - you need to attract a spren with something they want, open yourself to it, give it something it loves. That's how Dalinar trapped Nergaoul, that's how Re-Shephir was trapped by some unnamed Lightweaver (who like the name suggests, wasn't a Bondsmith ) . OB ch 30:

Quote

Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.

OB ch 120:

Quote

Dalinar squinted into the mists. Do you know how we capture spren, Dalinar? Taravangian had said. You lure the spren with something it loves. You give it something familiar to draw it in …
Something it knows deeply.
“Shallan saw one of the Unmade in the tower,” he whispered. “When she got close, it was afraid, but I don’t think the Thrill comprehends like it did. You see, it can only be bested by someone who deeply, sincerely, understands it.”
He lifted the gemstone above his head, and—one last time—embraced the Thrill.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Maybe he assisted in their creation unintentionally, or perhaps intentionally, regretted it later, and tried to fix it in some way.

I doubt it was anything about the creation of Mishram - it was said that Mishram was Odium's general in previous Desolations so unless Melishi lived for thousands of years, he couldn't have been associated with her unmaking. That being said - any chances that Melishi was Nohadon, if he was a Dawnshard, thus gained immortality?

Edited April 29 by alder24

[The Stick]

Well,that is actually probably technically possible, because Melishi could have bonded the Stormfather after the Sibling rejected him. After all, we do know the Nohadon vision was hard for Jasnah to place.

[Treach]

On 4/29/2024 at 9:43 AM, alder24 said:

The problem with this is that Melishi and the Sibling broke their bond before the imprisonment of BAM, he would be unable to open a perpendicularity without his powers.

Do we have a source on Melishi and BAM breaking their bond before the imprisonment? Seems like they would have broken them after, since the Sibling is "essentially a deadeye" according to Raboniel. 

[Lord Spirit]

One thing I want to out there. If BAM returns and fixes the deadeyes, then that would prevent the dead eyed stormfather theory in SA5. 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Treach said:

Do we have a source on Melishi and BAM breaking their bond before the imprisonment? Seems like they would have broken them after, since the Sibling is "essentially a deadeye" according to Raboniel. 

No, the Sibling clearly isn't a deadeye, she pretended. Even Raboniel knew the Sibling was slumbering, but wasn't dead - later Rabonile revealed that she knew the Sibling was alive and well.

RoW ch 72:

Quote

“How long were you listening in on my conversations with the Sibling, Ancient One?” Navani said.
“Always,” Raboniel said. “When I could not be listening in, I had another Fused doing it.”
Navani closed her eyes. I gave them the secret to the third node. I pried it out of the Sibling, walking directly into the enemy’s plan.
“You shouldn’t be too hard on yourself,” Raboniel said. “The Sibling is truly to blame—they always have been so innocent. And unaware of their own naiveness. When I touched the pillar, I knew the Sibling was awake— but pretending to be dead. So I let the ruse continue, and I listened. I couldn’t know that decision would bear fruit, but that is why you nurture nine seeds and watch for the one that begins growing.”

 

We know that the Sibling broke her bond before because of many clues from OB and RoW. In the gem archive from OB epigraphs, Radiants are talking about being forced to abandon the tower, the Sibling withdrawing, Urithiru's defenses failing and about the planned mission to capture BAM - all of those messages were recorded before the imprisonment of BAM. From RoW we know that Melishi created the additional defense around the Sibling's core, the soulcasted glass barrier, before Radiants left the Tower, that the Sibling hated Melishi and from Adolin's trial we know that the Sibling and Melishi broke her bond before Recreance and therefore before the imprisonment of BAM, as it was one of the reason for Recreance.

Lastly the imprisonment of BAM had to happen after Melishi and the Sibling broke their bonds, otherwise the Sibling would have been a deadeye, which she isn't.

RoW ch 87:

Quote

Amuna spun toward Adolin. “Do you know what would happen, Prince Adolin, if the Stormfather were to be killed?”
Adolin paused, then shook his head.
“A wise answer,” she said. “As no one knows. We were fortunate that no Bondsmiths existed at the time of the Recreance, though how the Sibling knew to end their bond early is a matter of dispute. I can only imagine the catastrophe that awaits us when your father kills his spren.”

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

One thing I want to out there. If BAM returns and fixes the deadeyes, then that would prevent the dead eyed stormfather theory in SA5. 

Personally I don't think the return of BAM would immediately fix everything. That's too easy. It might help deadeye spren, but I doubt it would fix them - something else needs to be done as well, the thing that Adolin is doing with Maya. While I believe the Stormfather will be killed and turned deadeye in SA5, I believe this will happen early on and by the end of SA5 this will be mostly fixed and releasing BAM will help, but that alone won't be enough to fix everything.

[Slappyface]

Is it confirmed that the previous bondsmiths could open perpendicularities? 

I thought the Stormfather was suprised that Dalinar could open it, and Dalinar explains that they are something new?

[alder24]

55 minutes ago, Slappyface said:

Is it confirmed that the previous bondsmiths could open perpendicularities? 

I thought the Stormfather was suprised that Dalinar could open it, and Dalinar explains that they are something new?

Yes, that's a Bondsmith power. The Stormfather was seeing something else and was referring to what he saw, he wasn't talking about the perpendicularity Dalinar made. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[Slappyface]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's a Bondsmith power. The Stormfather was seeing something else and was referring to what he saw, he wasn't talking about the perpendicularity Dalinar made. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Thanks for that WoB had forgotten that

[+Child of Hodor]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:04 PM, alder24 said:

Yes, that's a Bondsmith power. The Stormfather was seeing something else and was referring to what he saw, he wasn't talking about the perpendicularity Dalinar made. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

It feels like an error in the text then. Stormfather is surprised Dalinar can renew spheres, questions it and then the next thing he says is this never happened in the past. 

Quote

A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm the Stormtather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar? 

"We are Connected."

I was bonded to men before. This never happened. 

Oathbringer Ch. 119 Unity

So either Brandon didn't realize how this text would read or he changed his mind. We can handwave it as Stormfather is weird and we know from Wind and Truth prologue

Spoiler

he can lie.

...

Back to the original topic, did they use the Spiritual Realm like it's the Room of Requirement in Hogwarts? Shallan will have to think really hard about what she needs and open the way to the Spiritual realm (either by herself somehow or with help) and the right gemstone will be there? 

Edited May 7 by Child of Hodor