Why Aren't the Knights Radiant Mounted?

[+robardin]

 

I think I read a WoB or interview with Brandon somewhere, where he described his fleshing out the world of Roshar and the Knights Radiant as a kind of backlash to the trend in epic fantasy in the early-mid 2000s to being "gritty and low-magic" (adding that he tried his hand at it and soon gave it up, stating, "you do not want to read Brandon Sanderson's gritty, low-magic fantasy", or something like that).

So he went completely the other way. "Low magic? How about two, maybe THREE magic systems, with TEN surges, and resonances! And magic knights, in glowing magic armor! Summoning giant glowing magic swords, and riding magic horses! And some of them can FLY!"

Because of course, a "Knight" needs all three of those things, right? And they're even referred to as "the Third Shard" by Adolin when he's missing his Surefoot (killed by a stormform singer at The Battle of Narak) in Oathbringer, completing the set of "Blade, Plate, and Mount".

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

Words of Radiance Scottsdale signing (March 14, 2014)

And yet, we've only seen two Rhyshadium (Rhyshadiums? Rhyshadia?) "on-screen" in Stormlight, Dalinar's Gallant and Adolin's deceased Surefoot.

The Coppermind Wiki logs two highprinces who are mentioned in passing as having unnamed Rhyshadium in WoR and OB, neither of who are "on-screen" with them either.

More curiously to me, we haven't seen any of the by now numerous Knights Radiant of Dalinar's generation bond one. Not even Jasnah or Kaladin!

Is that because the region of Roshar (the western plains?) that their herds are found are currently under Odium's control?

I'm sure Kaladin has been really busy, too busy to go find a horse, plus he was never all that comfortable with the idea of riding one in WoR. And as for Jasnah, if Dalinar and Adolin found the time to go out and bond one, why not her? (I guess because it's a form of the Vorin art of War, and thus restricted to men?)

(For that matter, did Gavilar not have a Rhyshadium?)

 

[Quantus]

We've also technically only seen living plate on screen twice (outside of the visions). Im hoping there will be something special to happen between an active Radiant and the Ryshadium on a Bond level, something we havent seen yet.  Maybe an extension of the squire mechanics....     

But I dont think it will be for every Order, and Windrunners in particular would find mounted combat more limiting than helpful.  

[ScavellTane]

Mounts.. 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

I think I read a WoB or interview with Brandon somewhere, where he described his fleshing out the world of Roshar and the Knights Radiant as a kind of backlash to the trend in epic fantasy in the early-mid 2000s to being "gritty and low-magic" (adding that he tried his hand at it and soon gave it up, stating, "you do not want to read Brandon Sanderson's gritty, low-magic fantasy", or something like that).

So he went completely the other way. "Low magic? How about two, maybe THREE magic systems, with TEN surges, and resonances! And magic knights, in glowing magic armor! Summoning giant glowing magic swords, and riding magic horses! And some of them can FLY!"

Because of course, a "Knight" needs all three of those things, right? And they're even referred to as "the Third Shard" by Adolin when he's missing his Surefoot (killed by a stormform singer at The Battle of Narak) in Oathbringer, completing the set of "Blade, Plate, and Mount".

And yet, we've only seen two Rhyshadium (Rhyshadiums? Rhyshadia?) "on-screen" in Stormlight, Dalinar's Gallant and Adolin's deceased Surefoot.

The Coppermind Wiki logs two highprinces who are mentioned in passing as having unnamed Rhyshadium in WoR and OB, neither of who are "on-screen" with them either.

More curiously to me, we haven't seen any of the by now numerous Knights Radiant of Dalinar's generation bond one. Not even Jasnah or Kaladin!

Is that because the region of Roshar (the western plains?) that their herds are found are currently under Odium's control?

I'm sure Kaladin has been really busy, too busy to go find a horse, plus he was never all that comfortable with the idea of riding one in WoR. And as for Jasnah, if Dalinar and Adolin found the time to go out and bond one, why not her? (I guess because it's a form of the Vorin art of War, and thus restricted to men?)

(For that matter, did Gavilar not have a Rhyshadium?)

It's because you don't find and get Ryshadium, you are chosen by them. Most won't be that lucky. WoR ch 81:

Quote

They pick their rider, son. We fixate on Shards, but any man -- courageous or coward -- can bond a Blade. Not so here, on this ground. Only the worthy win here . . .

Historically speaking horses weren't really used for fighting on Roshar. They are especially expensive, require special care and aren't well adapted to the Rosharan environment. The first nation to use cavalry as a fighting formation was Shinovar during their numerous invasions of Roshar, which most likely happened after Recreance, thus after the Radiant era. Therefore most Radiant would not use horses like the classical medieval knights. Even now cavalry is still very rare because of how rare and expensive horses are. In WoR ch 67 Dalinar remarks that loosing on a plateau run could easily cost more than what won gemstone would be worth.

I'm uncertain how useful Ryshadium would be for most Orders. Two of them can fly, so horses for them would be pointless and other Radiants would be Lashed by them to arrive quickly to their destination - as seen in the Starfalls vision. On a battlefield their horses would be extremely vulnerable and could expose their rider to enemy strikes when killed.. Moreover Surges are a devastating weapon to wield - Jasnah soulcasted air all around her into oil and set it on fire, which would kill her horse. Unless they somehow get a Shardplate for their horses (which should exist after Recreance if that was practiced, the lack of such horse Shardplates implies it wasn't), Radiants should not bring horses to a Surge-fight. Adolin learned this lesson the hard way. 

So while Ryshadium are called a Third Shard, I wouldn't necessarily assume that they were called that during the Radiant era. For me it seems like a modern development, rather than something carried from ancient times. I think spren fill the role of "a knight's horse" - it's not just about riding on a horse, it's about companionship, that's what spren are to their knights. 

And Kaladin hates horses. He would rather ride on a Chull than on a horse. Imagine, a graceful knight in a glowing full plate riding on an oversized crab.

[+robardin]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's because you don't find and get Ryshadium, you are chosen by them. Most won't be that lucky. WoR ch 81:

Historically speaking horses weren't really used for fighting on Roshar. They are especially expensive, require special care and aren't well adapted to the Rosharan environment. The first nation to use cavalry as a fighting formation was Shinovar during their numerous invasions of Roshar, which most likely happened after Recreance, thus after the Radiant era. Therefore most Radiant would not use horses like the classical medieval knights. Even now cavalry is still very rare because of how rare and expensive horses are. In WoR ch 67 Dalinar remarks that loosing on a plateau run could easily cost more than what won gemstone would be worth.

I'm uncertain how useful Ryshadium would be for most Orders. Two of them can fly, so horses for them would be pointless and other Radiants would be Lashed by them to arrive quickly to their destination - as seen in the Starfalls vision. On a battlefield their horses would be extremely vulnerable and could expose their rider to enemy strikes when killed.. Moreover Surges are a devastating weapon to wield - Jasnah soulcasted air all around her into oil and set it on fire, which would kill her horse. Unless they somehow get a Shardplate for their horses (which should exist after Recreance if that was practiced, the lack of such horse Shardplates implies it wasn't), Radiants should not bring horses to a Surge-fight. Adolin learned this lesson the hard way. 

So while Ryshadium are called a Third Shard, I wouldn't necessarily assume that they were called that during the Radiant era. For me it seems like a modern development, rather than something carried from ancient times. I think spren fill the role of "a knight's horse" - it's not just about riding on a horse, it's about companionship, that's what spren are to their knights. 

And Kaladin hates horses. He would rather ride on a Chull than on a horse. Imagine, a graceful knight in a glowing full plate riding on an oversized crab.

I think you hit upon all the salient points, actually!

I did not remember that "cavalry was first used as a fighting formation by the Shin during one of their invasions of Roshar". However, those invasions happened in the "Era of Solitude", after Aharietiam (when nine out of ten Heralds walked off the job) but before the Recreance. (That is, including before the Recreance, it's a superset Era, I guess?)

It is true that we haven't exactly seen any Radiants pining for some kind of big horsey transport. Kaladin and Szeth can fly, Jasnah can Elsecall (though she hasn't done that very much), they have Oathgates, and so on...

"Classical" Radiants had Oathgates, too (I wonder when they were established?) so I think you're spot on in saying calling the Rhyshadium "the third Shard" is something post-Recreance, when having Shardblade and Shardplate were no longer Radiant attributes but more like "the perfectly equipped warrior".

However, given Brandon's comments about the inspiration for Roshar, a full set of Shards matching what he considers a "proper knight" being kitted out with, and the so-called "Knights Radiant" of Roshar, ... shouldn't that last term imply that a "Knight Radiant" ought to have all of what a "knight" should have?

It's not like the term "Knight Radiant" is a "backronym" of sorts from the later Vorin era, i.e., having full set of Shards including the Mount = "knight", in the past Shards were wielded by Radiants, thus they were "Knights Radiant".

Because when Shallan draws in Stormlight in the presence of the "madman" who is actually Taln the Herald in WoR Ch. 63, he exclaims, "One of Ishar's Knights... I remember... He founded them? Yes. Several Desolations ago. No longer just talk."

As for a Rhyshadium choosing its bondmate/rider, it occurs to me that maybe having a Nahel bond to a sentient spren might actually block forming a similar bond with a Rhyshadium, like trying to fit two plugs into the same outlet. Though the reverse case hasn't prevented Dalinar from bonding the Stormfather, so maybe that's not how it (doesn't) work.

Edited March 20 by robardin

[Highprince10]

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Historically speaking horses weren't really used for fighting on Roshar

When I read this sentence I though you meant horses that could talk and the horses who could talk weren't used for combat.

I agree only some radients orders will have mounts if any do at all. I feel like since living plate can be dismissed at will you can ride a normal horse and ryshadium are amazing for dead plate but I feel like the most likely order to get them would be stoneward but we have not heard of radient mounts from any history. 

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

So while Ryshadium are called a Third Shard, I wouldn't necessarily assume that they were called that during the Radiant era. For me it seems like a modern development, rather than something carried from ancient times. I think spren fill the role of "a knight's horse" - it's not just about riding on a horse, it's about companionship, that's what spren are to their knights. 

I think that if it is an inherited term it may have been used to define the Lancer. They are the only ones who can effectively perform a task as a mount and also survive in a battle with surges.

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

I did not remember that "cavalry was first used as a fighting formation by the Shin during one of their invasions of Roshar". However, those invasions happened in the "Era of Solitude", after Aharietiam (when nine out of ten Heralds walked off the job) but before the Recreance. (That is, including before the Recreance, it's a superset Era, I guess?)

No, the Era of Solitude lasts till today, or at least till the True Desolation started. For me it makes more sense if they invaded after Recreance, before Radiants would have stopped them. They were pretty famous, mentioned by Dalinar/Gavilar in the same sentence next to Sunmaker, so it seems they achieved significant progress - and they used Honorblades and Surges too. That would have given them a huge advantage after Recreance, before they would have only risked losing their Honorblades to Radiants. Coppermind:

Quote

Era of Solitude

Shin Invasions

During the Era of Solitude, the Shin tried multiple times to conquer all of Roshar, but they did not succeed any time. They used Honorblades, Surges, and cavalry, a fighting technique unfamiliar to the rest of the continent. Shubreth-son-Mashalan was likely a leader during one of the invasions.[19]

 

37 minutes ago, robardin said:

"Classical" Radiants had Oathgates, too (I wonder when they were established?)

At least before the 6th Epoch, when Radiants already existed. During Nohadon's times Oathgates were already functioning, but it's likely Knights Radiant weren't established - he mentioned how one Surgebinder caused so much devastation before Desolation that something needed to be done to prevent this from happening. 

39 minutes ago, robardin said:

However, given Brandon's comments about the inspiration for Roshar, a full set of Shards matching what he considers a "proper knight" being kitted out with, and the so-called "Knights Radiant" of Roshar, ... shouldn't that last term imply that a "Knight Radiant" ought to have all of what a "knight" should have?

A knight was a nobleman, many even fought on foot, rather than on horse. Kaladin got land after he revealed he’s a Radiant so he has all what a knight needs to have. Horses were just an expensive advantage that mostly nobles could have afforded, but the role of cavalry diminished greatly after the advancement of gunpowder. Well, Surges are worse than gunpowder, Hoid said that the end of formation fighting is coming to Roshar because of Surges - soon cavalry won't matter that much on Roshar.

44 minutes ago, robardin said:

It's not like the term "Knight Radiant" is a "backronym" of sorts from the later Vorin era, i.e., having full set of Shards including the Mount = "knight", in the past Shards were wielded by Radiants, thus they were "Knights Radiant".

There are no real knights on Roshar, nobody is running around screaming they are knights. Lighteyes are fighting with swords and on foot, just like some are fighting with bows, others lucky ones on horsebacks, but that doesn't make them knights. Even Shardbearers aren't called knights. Knights simply don't exist on Roshar and Knights Radiants are something different. They are knights because of their morality and values they represent, not their mount.

48 minutes ago, robardin said:

As for a Rhyshadium choosing its bondmate/rider, it occurs to me that maybe having a Nahel bond to a sentient spren might actually block forming a similar bond with a Rhyshadium, like trying to fit two plugs into the same outlet. Though the reverse case hasn't prevented Dalinar from bonding the Stormfather, so maybe that's not how it (doesn't) work.

I don't think so, those are two different kinds of bonds.

 

46 minutes ago, Highprince10 said:

I agree only some radients orders will have mounts if any do at all. I feel like since living plate can be dismissed at will you can ride a normal horse and ryshadium are amazing for dead plate but I feel like the most likely order to get them would be stoneward but we have not heard of radient mounts from any history. 

I find Stonewards to be one of least likely candidates to use horses. Firstly they were considered frontline soldiers like Windrunners, secondly their powers are about touching stones, which can't be done from horseback.

[+robardin]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are no real knights on Roshar, nobody is running around screaming they are knights. Lighteyes are fighting with swords and on foot, just like some are fighting with bows, others lucky ones on horsebacks, but that doesn't make them knights. Even Shardbearers aren't called knights. Knights simply don't exist on Roshar and Knights Radiants are something different.

This is basically what I'm calling out. Brandon explicitly said in multiple contexts, that he came up with this aspect of SA as "big magic knights" and that his definition specifically required a horse.

Then he puts in magic horses in his world, but it's not his Knights that are riding them!

I just think it's a funny irony the way it's worked out!

 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Because of course, a "Knight" needs all three of those things, right? And they're even referred to as "the Third Shard" by Adolin when he's missing his Surefoot (killed by a stormform singer at The Battle of Narak) in Oathbringer, completing the set of "Blade, Plate, and Mount".

It was discussed more in WoK-Prime - the "big magic knights" inspiration for Roshar was about Dead Shardbearers - just as we see demonstrated by Dalinar and Adolin in WoK and WoR. 

The Knights Radiant are something else entirely. 

Prime Spoilers:

Spoiler

Well, in WoK Prime, there were no Spren - So Shardbearers were all Blade and Plate with Mounts - and Surgebinders just had surges and used the same Blade and Plate as everybody else

Spoiler

Except Maybe Taln

 

 

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It was discussed more in WoK-Prime - the "big magic knights" inspiration for Roshar was about Dead Shardbearers - just as we see demonstrated by Dalinar and Adolin in WoK and WoR. 

The Knights Radiant are something else entirely. 

Prime Spoilers:

  Hide contents

Well, in WoK Prime, there were no Spren - So Shardbearers were all Blade and Plate with Mounts - and Surgebinders just had surges and used the same Blade and Plate as everybody else

  Reveal hidden contents

Except Maybe Taln

 

 

That makes sense, that WoK-Prime would be the work he had in mind as "backlash" against the trend of gritty, low-magic fantasy circa 1999-2002

I fear to read WoK-Prime because it might futz with my image/recollection of "actual canon" Stormlight Archive, or is that not something I should worry about (since it seems like you've read it)?

[Treamayne]

22 minutes ago, robardin said:

I fear to read WoK-Prime because it might futz with my image/recollection of "actual canon" Stormlight Archive, or is that not something I should worry about (since it seems like you've read it)?

The Prime Forum has both spoilered and spoiler-free discussion on just this topic. My response to just this question can be found here (which includes excerpts from Bradons Essay in Altered Perceptions on why he published those chapters), but I generally recommend Altered Perceptions for people on-the-fence, since it has a few sample chapters from Prime and can give a good idea if you might enjoy the alt-history version.  Some of those chapters are also on the website.

A Bullet-point style list of "differences" can be found here (Spoilers in link).

Prime-Slight Spoilers

Spoiler

WoBs First:

Quote

majutsuko

Anyone know if WoK Prime is more or less a complete/conclusive story? I’m just wondering if it’s like a stand-alone or if it gives the sense of “this is part 1 of X more books to come.” I’m actually nervous about cliffhangers and such never being resolved—alternative storyline or not.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm afraid there are some. It's worse than the published Way of Kings in that regard, I'd say. It IS a complete story; it doesn't just end in the middle. But it also is obviously part of something larger that I will never now write.

jaxonflex

Will you be releasing a general over view of what you intended with the cliff hangers?

Also was Taln going to remain dead?

Brandon Sanderson

It's been a LONG time, so remembering exactly what I was going to do will be tough. <Redacted>

General Reddit 2020 (July 16, 2020)

Quote

Peter Ahlstrom

The lady-in-waiting [from Way of Kings Prime] was named Shinri Davar, but Brandon says that Shallan is an entirely different character. Unlike Kaladin who is the same character as Merin.

General Reddit 2017 (Nov. 13, 2017)

So - Kaladin is named Merin (a version of Kaladin that took the Shards and does not have depression), Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin (Aredor), Renarin, etc are all there. Taln and Jasnah have much bigger roles. Sadeas and Amaram are one person in Prime (Meridas). 

As for reading. . . I'm glad I read it once, but I doubt I will re-read it (unlike SA where I have each at least twice, and WoK 6 times)

Some people loved WoK-P (like Frustration), some hated it - but I was middle of the road. I do not have a problem keeping the info separate from Canon, because so much is different (maps, most locations, personalities, etc.)

[Duxredux]

So... hate to burst anyone's bubble but... Brandon just doesn't know horses - at least during the beginning of Writing Excuses and writing WoT. Robert Jordan loved horses and put them everywhere and when Brandon took up the reins... they mysteriously became less prevalent.

Kaladin not knowing much about horses is one of Brandon's classic ways of getting around this - by having the POV not know squat either. We have two main named horses in Gallant and Sureblood... and Brandon trimmed the herd to simplify things. I'm sure there are WoBs and I know there are Writing Excuses episodes where he talks about this, but there's the writerly reason - he just didn't want the horses and he gets away with it by making them magical with near human intellect. It's almost certainly for writerly reasons that he has them... but doesn't really.

[EZZarclight]

Alright, lets break down which of the radiants could gain value from horses

1, skybreakers and windrunners can fly, the horse cannot fly, so they don't need horses, 

2, Edgedancers and releasers(dustbringers), are already hyper-mobile medics and hyper-mobile engineers respectively, so they don't need horses

3, Elsecallers and to a lesser extent lightweavers both functions as in camp supply lines with soulcasting, and while a horse might be useful for a elsecaller, horses are probably pretty hard to bring into the cognitive realm, light weavers seem to function as spies and supply line, so while a horse would not be needed for their day to day it could be usefull

4, Bondsmiths seem to be leader positions and magical resupply, so they probably need horses sparingly,  same goes for truthwatchers, who seem to be medics with signaling and visualization abilities, both are pretty stationary so horses should not be required

5,  stonewards and willshapers seem to be used in mostly defensive situations, being that reshaping material is useful in repair, holding, and reinforcing, willshapers have the elsecaller problem of getting a horse into the cognitive realm, and stonewards are described as front line infantry, however i think their power-set is best in preprep and defense, being a more efficient but slower releaser, with total control over stone.

 

So yeah, windrunners, and skybreakers, the two night radiant orders who do the most fighting in war time scenarios can already fly, the edgedancers and releasers who care about being mobile can do that on their own already, Elsecallers and willshapers cant work with half their powerset and also horses, lightweavers, stonewards, bondsmiths, and truthwatchers can get minor use out of horses, (stonewards the most in the context of combat, but its probably better if they can touch the floor easially to do stuff with their surges) but these orders are mostly stationary

It seems that the best warrior for horses are the dead shardplate and blade warrior, for they do not have a way to move faster, and they have nothing more important to do than just fight, this has concluded my ted talk

[+hwiles]

20 hours ago, robardin said:

 

I think I read a WoB or interview with Brandon somewhere, where he described his fleshing out the world of Roshar and the Knights Radiant as a kind of backlash to the trend in epic fantasy in the early-mid 2000s to being "gritty and low-magic" (adding that he tried his hand at it and soon gave it up, stating, "you do not want to read Brandon Sanderson's gritty, low-magic fantasy", or something like that).

So he went completely the other way. "Low magic? How about two, maybe THREE magic systems, with TEN surges, and resonances! And magic knights, in glowing magic armor! Summoning giant glowing magic swords, and riding magic horses! And some of them can FLY!"

Because of course, a "Knight" needs all three of those things, right? And they're even referred to as "the Third Shard" by Adolin when he's missing his Surefoot (killed by a stormform singer at The Battle of Narak) in Oathbringer, completing the set of "Blade, Plate, and Mount".

And yet, we've only seen two Rhyshadium (Rhyshadiums? Rhyshadia?) "on-screen" in Stormlight, Dalinar's Gallant and Adolin's deceased Surefoot.

The Coppermind Wiki logs two highprinces who are mentioned in passing as having unnamed Rhyshadium in WoR and OB, neither of who are "on-screen" with them either.

More curiously to me, we haven't seen any of the by now numerous Knights Radiant of Dalinar's generation bond one. Not even Jasnah or Kaladin!

Is that because the region of Roshar (the western plains?) that their herds are found are currently under Odium's control?

I'm sure Kaladin has been really busy, too busy to go find a horse, plus he was never all that comfortable with the idea of riding one in WoR. And as for Jasnah, if Dalinar and Adolin found the time to go out and bond one, why not her? (I guess because it's a form of the Vorin art of War, and thus restricted to men?)

(For that matter, did Gavilar not have a Rhyshadium?)

 

Just from a practical standpoint, mounts are extremely rare and expensive on Roshar and a lot of Radiants were very poor and broken individuals before saying the words and having them accepted.

While more knights on horses would probably scratch an itch for everyone...I say: Save a horse, ride a skybreaker. The crazy psychopaths can fly!

[Quantus]

On 3/21/2024 at 3:28 AM, EZZarclight said:

Alright, lets break down which of the radiants could gain value from horses

1, skybreakers and windrunners can fly, the horse cannot fly, so they don't need horses, 

2, Edgedancers and releasers(dustbringers), are already hyper-mobile medics and hyper-mobile engineers respectively, so they don't need horses

3, Elsecallers and to a lesser extent lightweavers both functions as in camp supply lines with soulcasting, and while a horse might be useful for a elsecaller, horses are probably pretty hard to bring into the cognitive realm, light weavers seem to function as spies and supply line, so while a horse would not be needed for their day to day it could be usefull

4, Bondsmiths seem to be leader positions and magical resupply, so they probably need horses sparingly,  same goes for truthwatchers, who seem to be medics with signaling and visualization abilities, both are pretty stationary so horses should not be required

5,  stonewards and willshapers seem to be used in mostly defensive situations, being that reshaping material is useful in repair, holding, and reinforcing, willshapers have the elsecaller problem of getting a horse into the cognitive realm, and stonewards are described as front line infantry, however i think their power-set is best in preprep and defense, being a more efficient but slower releaser, with total control over stone.

 

So yeah, windrunners, and skybreakers, the two night radiant orders who do the most fighting in war time scenarios can already fly, the edgedancers and releasers who care about being mobile can do that on their own already, Elsecallers and willshapers cant work with half their powerset and also horses, lightweavers, stonewards, bondsmiths, and truthwatchers can get minor use out of horses, (stonewards the most in the context of combat, but its probably better if they can touch the floor easially to do stuff with their surges) but these orders are mostly stationary

It seems that the best warrior for horses are the dead shardplate and blade warrior, for they do not have a way to move faster, and they have nothing more important to do than just fight, this has concluded my ted talk

On the topic of wind runners and sky breakers:  if we assume they will be something new to develop from existing mechanics, I think some variant of the Squire Bond would be most likely.  If that happens the Ryshadium would theoretically be able to lash themselves around.  Consider the value of a Horse with Stormlight and Surges.

Edited March 25 by Quantus

[QuantumAce]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

On the topic of wind runners and sky breakers:  if we assume they will be something new to develop from existing mechanics, I think some variant of the Squire Bond would be most likely.  If that happens the Ryshadium would theoretically be able to lash themselves around.  Consider the value of a Horse with Stormlight and Surges.

While I like the idea of a surgebinding Ryshadium, it is unlikely. They already have a bond with lesser spren that increase their intelligence, but are specifically called out as lacking the sapience level to bond a radiant spren. That seems to preclude a squire type of bond. 

 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, QuantumAce said:

While I like the idea of a surgebinding Ryshadium, it is unlikely. They already have a bond with lesser spren that increase their intelligence, but are specifically called out as lacking the sapience level to bond a radiant spren. That seems to preclude a squire type of bond. 

 

There's nothing about those two bonds that would prevent them from having both their Gemheart Spren and the Horse evolution of the Squire bond we're talking about here. A Ryshadium is not sapient enough to Swear Ideals and become Radiant in their own right, but that's not something expected of or required for Squires.  

[QuantumAce]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

There's nothing about those two bonds that would prevent them from having both their Gemheart Spren and the Horse evolution of the Squire bond we're talking about here. A Ryshadium is not sapient enough to Swear Ideals and become Radiant in their own right, but that's not something expected of or required for Squires.  

My interpretation was was that as an apprentice type of training/support role to the radiants, squires would need to potentially meet all of the requirements. It wont necessarily progress to bonding their own radiant spren, but they would need the capacity to. I understand you are referring to a potential evolution of the squire role, but have we seen anything that indicates squires do not currently have the same capacity requirements as a full knight radiant? 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

but that's not something expected of or required for Squires.  

It might be different for each order, but the people we have seen for Windrunners and Skybreakers do need to swear the first oath before they can become Squires.

Specifically, Lopen and Szeth are both shown to have Sworn the first oath before becoming a Squire - and Ki specifically tells Szeth in OB Ch 90 that the first oath is required to become a Squire Skybreaker. Lopen also tells both the Windrunner hopefuls  (OB Ch 46) and the wounded after the Battle of Thaylenah that you start with the first Oath to become a Squire and hope to attract a Spren. 

The Squires for whom we don't have confirmation are Shallan's Squires - who do not swear the first Oath on-screen before we see Vathah draw stormlight for the first time in the restaurant. 

Edited March 25 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

My interpretation was was that as an apprentice type of training/support role to the radiants, squires would need to potentially meet all of the requirements. It wont necessarily progress to bonding their own radiant spren, but they would need the capacity to. I understand you are referring to a potential evolution of the squire role, but have we seen anything that indicates squires do not currently have the same capacity requirements as a full knight radiant? 

Other than the self-imposed and mostly non-magical restrictions the Skybreakers impose on themselves, there's been no evidence of ANY requirements placed on squires beyond having some emotional Connection to an actual Radiant.  They have no Idals of their own, no Oaths to break, just power granted by association and the regard of the Radiant.  So if a full Radiant views the Ryshadium as an equal member of their Crew (totally believable based on the relationships we've seen, and also standard Horse People beliefs), and has reached whatever minimum Sentience is required to form Bonds (unproven but should be no more than Aviar Bird level), then they should be a viable target for that Radiant to Empower the Ryshadium as a squire.  

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

there's been no evidence of ANY requirements placed on squires beyond having some emotional Connection to an actual Radiant.

Really? To become a squire you need to be fit for the order, OB ch 46:

Quote

“I don’t know, Skar,” she finally said, lowering the stone. “I keep thinking, maybe I don’t belong here. If you haven’t noticed, none of the women have managed this. I kind of forced my way among you all, and nobody asked—”
“Stop,” he said, taking the emerald and holding it before her again. “Stop right there. You want to be a Windrunner?”
“More than anything,” she whispered.
“Why?”
“Because I want to soar.”
“Not good enough. Kaladin, he wasn’t thinking about being left out, or how great it would be to fly. He was thinking about saving the rest of us. Saving me. Why do you want to be in the Windrunners?”
“Because I want to help! I want to do something other than stand around, waiting for the enemy to come to us!” “
Well, you have a chance, Lyn. A chance nobody has had for ages, a chance in millions. Either you seize it, and in so doing decide you’re worthy, or you leave and give up.” He pressed the gemstone back down into her hand. “But if you leave, you don’t get to complain. As long as you keep trying, there’s a chance. When you give up? That’s when the dream dies.”
She met his eyes, closed her fist around the gemstone, and breathed in with a sharp, distinct breath.
Then started glowing

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can a Radiant join multiple Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

This was not done in the past.

Questioner

Or become a squire of a different Order?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually not impossible for this to happen; it simply was not done.

Questioner

If Dalinar became a Lighweaver squire or had the Lightweaver Honorblade, could he create the Roshar map himself?

Brandon Sanderson

This is going to depend on factors. It is possible, but highly implausible, following another highly implausible set of circumstances that would actually allow him to actually do that. (Though getting the Honorblade would not be as difficult.)

Footnote: Brandon has commented on this twice before.
RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

 

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

They have no Idals of their own, no Oaths to break,

They all begin by swearing or living by the First Ideal:

Quote

“The first step will be to speak the Ideal,” Kaladin said. “I suspect a few of you have already said it. But for the rest, if you wish to be a squire to the Windrunners, you will need to swear it.” They began belting out the words.
Everyone knew the right ones by now. Lunamor whispered the Ideal.
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

 

However as I was digging through WoBs I found this one:

Spoiler

Storm Cellar

Do squires always bond the spren of their Knight's order? Or can they attract a different type of spren?

Also, was it normal for someone to serve their whole life as a squire?

Brandon Sanderson

They can attract a different spren. 

It was indeed normal, depending on the order and the person.  

Miscellaneous 2018 (Oct. 14, 2018)

So you have a point, it's possible for a squire to become a knight of a different order. But I still believe a squire needs to live by the First Ideal to be a squire in the first place - for an animal even with an increased intelligence, understanding such abstract concepts might be a bit too much.

15 hours ago, Quantus said:

So if a full Radiant views the Ryshadium as an equal member of their Crew (totally believable based on the relationships we've seen, and also standard Horse People beliefs),

It doesn't work like this. A knight believing a person is a part of their "crew" isn't enough, a knight doesn't give powers on command. No matter how hard Kaladin wanted Rlain to become a Windrunner's squire it simply didn't work, Rlain wasn't fitted for that. A squire candidate must be qualified and that's what's the most important.

[QuantumAce]

21 hours ago, Quantus said:

Other than the self-imposed and mostly non-magical restrictions the Skybreakers impose on themselves, there's been no evidence of ANY requirements placed on squires beyond having some emotional Connection to an actual Radiant.  They have no Idals of their own, no Oaths to break, just power granted by association and the regard of the Radiant.  So if a full Radiant views the Ryshadium as an equal member of their Crew (totally believable based on the relationships we've seen, and also standard Horse People beliefs), and has reached whatever minimum Sentience is required to form Bonds (unproven but should be no more than Aviar Bird level), then they should be a viable target for that Radiant to Empower the Ryshadium as a squire.  

The questions was "have we seen anything that indicates squires do not currently have the same capacity requirements as a full knight radiant? "

All of the evidence I have seen indicates squires currently do meet the same requirements. So the question is, do they have to? What can you show me to support the idea this is more of a tradition than a rule? What are you basing your aviar level sentience theory on? 

[+robardin]

I don't think we know how squiring works - it varies by Order, no doubt.

It is curious why neither Rlain nor Dabbid ever "went squire" to Kaladin, when every other member of Bridge Four - well, except Moash, who by then had removed himself from that reckoning - did so relatively quickly.

It's one thing for an honorspren like Riah to refuse to consider bonding Rlain for being a listener, but not even squiring?

And what's Dabbid's deal in never becoming a squire, either? Because he wouldn't speak aloud, he couldn't Speak the Words?

Is saying the First Ideal a necessary step towards squiring? It seem likely - we saw the Skybreaker squiring candidates that Szeth was a part of doing so in unison.

Does that mean all of Bridge Four (and Bridge Thirteen, before Teft reached the Third Ideal) had done so, "off-screen?" Because later, when Lopen is talking to an amputee Thaylen soldier at the end of Oathbringer about how Stormlight could heal even such a wound, advised him to do like Lyn, and just "start following us around - but you have to say the Words."

[alder24]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

And what's Dabbid's deal in never becoming a squire, either? Because he wouldn't speak aloud, he couldn't Speak the Words?

Speaking the Words isn't a necessity, you must mean them and live by them - Eshonai was unable to speak the Words when she died drowning in water, but she meant it, she lived them in that moment, she spoke them in her mind and that was enough for the Stormfather to accept them. So there must be another reason for why he failed to become a Radiant. RoW ch 117:

Quote

The Rhythm of Panic ruled her briefly as she was again submerged. [...]
Not Panic.
Not your rhythms.
I reject you.
My life. My death.
I WILL BE FREE. 
[...]
YOU WERE RADIANT WHEN YOU DIED. YOU COULDN’T SAY THE WORDS, UNDER THE WATER, BUT I ACCEPTED THEM ANYWAY. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU SURVIVED THAT LONG WITHOUT BREATHING?