Hemalurgic Combat Combos

[Trusk'our]

Here's another "fun" topic- let's say you have a non-Invested human champion you want to fight for you. You can give them up to three Hemalurgic spikes containing any combination of Allomantic and Feruchemical power. What are those powers you're giving to your champion?

I'll start with one a bit different than normal- I'll forego the obvious my standard choice of F-gold and go for A-steel, A-iron, and F-iron.

They'd be the ultimate master of Pushing and Pulling, able to use metals in an offensive manner and to quickly move across the battlefield. The main counter to Coinshots is to have a Coinshot or Lurcher of your own to deflect all their projectiles, but this Hemalurgist could easily counter them by tapping weight and either smashing them with the force of their own Push, force the metal projectile through their Allomantic defenses, or with Lurchers just squish them in their own armor.

They could also shove heavy metal objects around to act as barricades or to smash opponents.

EDIT: it's era 2 Hemalurgy, so no Compounding.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Trusk'our

[The Sibling]

Maybe gold compounding and pewter allowance? It kind of depends on what they're fighting and where they're fighting it but I think healing + strength is pretty powerful.

[Trusk'our]

11 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

Maybe gold compounding and pewter allowance? It kind of depends on what they're fighting and where they're fighting it but I think healing + strength is pretty powerful.

Oh, sorry, no Compounding available. I probably should have mentioned that it is era 2 Hemalurgy.

But yeah, A-pewter and F-gold synergize pretty well even without Compounding as the pewter lets you store more health up.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Here's another "fun" topic- let's say you have a non-Invested human champion you want to fight for you. You can give them up to three Hemalurgic spikes containing any combination of Allomantic and Feruchemical power. What are those powers you're giving to your champion?

I'll start with one a bit different than normal- I'll forego the obvious my standard choice of F-gold and go for A-steel, A-iron, and F-iron.

They'd be the ultimate master of Pushing and Pulling, able to use metals in an offensive manner and to quickly move across the battlefield. The main counter to Coinshots is to have a Coinshot or Lurcher of your own to deflect all their projectiles, but this Hemalurgist could easily counter them by tapping weight and either smashing them with the force of their own Push, force the metal projectile through their Allomantic defenses, or with Lurchers just squish them in their own armor.

They could also shove heavy metal objects around to act as barricades or to smash opponents.

If we assume the rules of Hemalurgy are as established in TLM Ars Arcanum, and compounding is impossible, then F-steel, F-pewter and F-gold - I'm faster, stronger, can throw non-metal projectile at flying Allomancers much much faster than they can shoot their coins, and I can heal from most wounds I accidentally get. With F-steel I can simply avoid most injuries in the first place, so I could safely exchange it for something else - F-zinc (it's always so good, it would be very useful for calculating precise trajectories of my stone throws, so I can always smash your head with a stone, no matter where you are) or A-pewter to get even stronger and faster and have my strength stores non-muscle based.

Your F-iron is useless when I can simply explode your head with a single, super-strong and super-fast punch, faster than you can react to me and start tapping.

[The Stormfather]

F-steel, A pewter and A-Duralumin.

JUmp up close, and punch you with a duralumin punch. You're going to be quite dead.

[Trusk'our]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Your F-iron is useless when I can simply explode your head with a single, super-strong and super-fast punch, faster than you can react to me and start tapping.

I meant it more as a general Hemalurgic warrior creation thread, but if your guy fought mine, yes, I think he'd be quite dead 

1 minute ago, The stormfather said:

F-steel, A pewter and A-Duralumin.

JUmp up close, and punch you with a duralumin punch. You're going to be quite dead.

Make that double dead.

[The Stormfather]

I think most things with duralumin are pretty powerful. Like, A pewter A steel A Duralumin.

Giant pushes, pewter to make sure you don't crush yourself, and well, you can still mega punch people.

[.....]

there is a wob that I cannot find that says if you know what you were doing you could spike out multiple abilitys at once so assuming that we know the right bindpoints for our spikes I would have three atium spikes two granting mistborn abilities(for extra strength) one granting full feruchemy now Im almost a fullborn just with out compunding still op tho 

edit: this wob is close enough

Kythis

When you spike somebody, say a full Mistborn, with a steel spike, it could end up with four different charges.  Does it get all four of them it just depends on where you place it?  

Brandon Sanderson

Where you place it it can get all four.  Spiking a full Mistborn wastes a lot of power and the way that it's known, I mean, it doesn't have to, but the way that it's known to do it right now.

Footnote: Clarified here
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014) Edited October 10, 2023 by .....

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I won't say it is the most effective option for a murder hobo build.... but... 

F-Duralimin

A-Duralumin

A-Brass (or zinc)  

Strat: Find some Hemalurgic constructs and build your army while sapping any oppositions desire to fight you.  

Edit: another possibility 

@Trusk'our 

Given the nature of potentially fighting other hemalurgically spiked individuals would it be cheating to ask for 3x A-Steel in hopes that it grants enough strength to push against other peoples spikes?  

Edited October 10, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Trusk'our]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

@Trusk'our 

Given the nature of potentially fighting other hemalurgically spiked individuals would it be cheating to ask for 3x A-Steel in hopes that it grants enough strength to push against other peoples spikes?  

I would say that's well within the bounds of what would be acceptable, though I don't know if it would do the trick. Not enough power granted by the spikes to Push metals inside their bodies.

However, triple A-pewter seems like it would be pretty powerful. . .

Edited October 10, 2023 by Trusk'our

[JustQuestin2004]

Interesting, what I'd choose would depend on the circumstances of the Contest in question.

In most circumstances, I'd give my champion A-Pewter, A-Chromium and F-Steel.

A-Pewter and F-Steel have insane synergy due to a little quirk about F-Steel, when you Tap speed you don't just move faster, you Burn metals faster. So if you were also Burning Pewter while Tapping Speed you could become even stronger and faster. And with the prep-time my champion could store up an insane amount of Speed due to pewter giving him more speed to store.

Plus A-Chromium due to the fact that he's definitely going to be fighting an Invested opponent, which he could Leech and depower them, then punch their head off within a single second. Of course this combo would work best with some prep-time, though not that much due to being able to store away the enhanced speed given by pewter. 

[Trusk'our]

29 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

A-Pewter and F-Steel have insane synergy due to a little quirk about F-Steel, when you Tap speed you don't just move faster, you Burn metals faster. So if you were also Burning Pewter while Tapping Speed you could become even stronger and faster. And with the prep-time my champion could store up an insane amount of Speed due to pewter giving him more speed to store.

Exactly. I actually was going to choose that combo originally, but I decided to do something different for variety's sake (but A-steel, A-iron, F-iron seemed to have some unique and powerful abilities, so I chose that).

The extra ability to burn your metals with F-steel combined with A-pewter's natural speed increase would lead to a very powerful combat build.

32 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Plus A-Chromium due to the fact that he's definitely going to be fighting an Invested opponent, which he could Leech and depower them, then punch their head off within a single second. Of course this combo would work best with some prep-time, though not that much due to being able to store away the enhanced speed given by pewter. 

I'd probably choose F-gold as my third spike if I did an A-pewter/F-steel build, as it would further enhance my champion's durability and A-pewter would allow for more health to be stored up than normal.

[JustQuestin2004]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Exactly. I actually was going to choose that combo originally, but I decided to do something different for variety's sake (but A-steel, A-iron, F-iron seemed to have some unique and powerful abilities, so I chose that).

The extra ability to burn your metals with F-steel combined with A-pewter's natural speed increase would lead to a very powerful combat build.

Yeah, main problem is a lack of ranged options, so your champion's build is decent counter to mine's. Then it'd turn into a contest of 'Who will run out of metals first?' since my champion could still avoid everything your champion could throw at him. But Pewter Burns really fast even without F-Steel soooo... Yeah it'd probably be your victory by endurance.

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I'd probably choose F-gold as my third spike if I did an A-pewter/F-steel build, as it would further enhance my champion's durability and A-pewter would allow for more health to be stored up than normal.

A valid option, but in my opinion the best way to take a hit is to not take it at all. Plus A-Chromium effectively counters most types of magic if you can touch them, and with this build you absolutely could. Unless you're up against a flyer, in which case you're out of luck.

[.....]

3 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Yeah, main problem is a lack of ranged options, so your champion's build is decent counter to mine's. Then it'd turn into a contest of 'Who will run out of metals first?' since my champion could still avoid everything your champion could throw at him. But Pewter Burns really fast even without F-Steel soooo... Yeah it'd probably be your victory by endurance.

A valid option, but in my opinion the best way to take a hit is to not take it at all. Plus A-Chromium effectively counters most types of magic if you can touch them, and with this build you absolutely could. Unless you're up against a flyer, in which case you're out of luck.

if its a coinshot just move the coin other wise throw a rock your strong enough that it will kill them

Edited October 10, 2023 by .....

[Trusk'our]

13 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Yeah, main problem is a lack of ranged options, so your champion's build is decent counter to mine's. Then it'd turn into a contest of 'Who will run out of metals first?' since my champion could still avoid everything your champion could throw at him. But Pewter Burns really fast even without F-Steel soooo... Yeah it'd probably be your victory by endurance.

Yeah, the build I went for is solely meant for range, but I don't think that would stop your build. See, since you can increase your Pewter burn so much, you can really jump when necessary, which would bring most Steelpushing Coinshots into melee range.

Also, rocks are pretty good projectiles when hurled by someone with the strength of ten burley men. . .

13 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

A valid option, but in my opinion the best way to take a hit is to not take it at all. Plus A-Chromium effectively counters most types of magic if you can touch them, and with this build you absolutely could. Unless you're up against a flyer, in which case you're out of luck.

True. Actually, that's kind of what my build is going for- using their powers to avoid getting hit in the first place rather than relying on pewter or gold to save them.

Also, pewter super-jump with A-chromium may work.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Trusk'our

[.....]

if Im fighting your people I choose A-bendalloy A-brass and A-duraluminum I could probably mind control you at that point also give me a gallon of metals and I would drink the metals as fast as I could duraluminum them

Edited October 10, 2023 by .....

[Trusk'our]

18 minutes ago, ..... said:

if Im fighting your people I choose A-bendalloy A-brass and A-duraluminum I could probably mind control you at that point also give me a gallon of metals and I would drink the metals as fast as I could duraluminum them

Well, a three-spike build is actually just below the threshold it takes to be able to mind-control someone (hence the reason I chose that number when establishing the guidelines of this thread). They need four or more spikes to be cracked open enough to be vulnerable to that level of influence.

Still, I think the more spikes you bear the more susceptible to all Emotional Allomancy you become, kind of like how Vin was able to feel TLR Soothing through her Coppercloud even when Kelsier couldn't (she had her earring spike but Kel was untouched by Hemalurgy) when they broke into Kreddik Shaw.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Trusk'our

[.....]

Quote

Well, a three-spike build is actually just below the threshold it takes to be able to mind-control someone (hence the reason I chose that number when establishing the guidelines of this thread). They need four or more spikes to be cracked open enough to be vulnerable to that level of influence.

Yeah but kandra can be controled with duralumin allomancy and they only have two spikes they have three and soothing in a bendalloy bubble is similar to duralumin so enough duralumin bursts fast enough will be insanely strong and probably enough to control you (Also how much metal are we assuming they have (in burntime) and what about feruchemy(at a 1:1 ratio)?)

Edited October 10, 2023 by .....

[JustQuestin2004]

3 hours ago, ..... said:

if Im fighting your people I choose A-bendalloy A-brass and A-duraluminum I could probably mind control you at that point also give me a gallon of metals and I would drink the metals as fast as I could duraluminum them

 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Well, a three-spike build is actually just below the threshold it takes to be able to mind-control someone (hence the reason I chose that number when establishing the guidelines of this thread). They need four or more spikes to be cracked open enough to be vulnerable to that level of influence.

This combo still has potential even without mind-control, though I think A-Zinc would be a better choice than Brass, since we've seen someone get hit by a Mega-Soothing with Straff and while it scared the crap out of him it didn't seem to have any lasting effects after Vin stopped.

But if you did a Mega-Riot on someone with Zinc and Duralumin you might be able to make someone literally pass out from Rioting everything they're feeling all at once. Which would work in your favor more than a brief stun.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Given the nature of potentially fighting other hemalurgically spiked individuals would it be cheating to ask for 3x A-Steel in hopes that it grants enough strength to push against other peoples spikes?  

Elend can't push spikes despite being Lerasium Mistborn, more powerful than even what 3 spikes can give you.

 

10 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

And with the prep-time my champion could store up an insane amount of Speed due to pewter giving him more speed to store.

I'm not sure about this one. You don't need to move to store speed in Steelmind, you can just sit. Pewter makes you run faster, yes, but that doesn't mean you can store more speed. Sitting doesn't make you store less speed than running so I think burning pewter might not give you more speed to store. But on the other hand A-pewter makes you generally faster and increases your reaction speed, so maybe.

 

9 hours ago, ..... said:

if Im fighting your people I choose A-bendalloy A-brass and A-duraluminum I could probably mind control you at that point also give me a gallon of metals and I would drink the metals as fast as I could duraluminum them

You can't control people who have less than 4 spikes. Kandra aren't humans, they behave differently under emotional Allomancy.

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm not sure about this one. You don't need to move to store speed in Steelmind, you can just sit. Pewter makes you run faster, yes, but that doesn't mean you can store more speed. Sitting doesn't make you store less speed than running so I think burning pewter might not give you more speed to store. But on the other hand A-pewter makes you generally faster and increases your reaction speed, so maybe.

If you can't directly store the extra speed from A-pewter, couldn't you at least store at a higher rate without suffering the same level of drawback?

For example, most Feruchemists store away about 20% of a given attribute because the drawbacks of storing more are too great to deal with on a regular basis. However, if you were already moving about 1/3 (for example- I don't know how much A-pewter actually speeds you up) faster than normal due to pewter, couldn't you then store about that much extra without the same drawback as a normal Steelrunner?

It wouldn't be perfect, since F-steel is actual temporal speed and A-pewter seems to be related more towards extra Kinetic energy, but I feel that it should still work in some degree.

[alder24]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

If you can't directly store the extra speed from A-pewter, couldn't you at least store at a higher rate without suffering the same level of drawback?

Yes, that's certainly possible.

[Trusk'our]

15 hours ago, ..... said:

there is a wob that I cannot find that says if you know what you were doing you could spike out multiple abilitys at once so assuming that we know the right bindpoints for our spikes I would have three atium spikes two granting mistborn abilities(for extra strength) one granting full feruchemy now Im almost a fullborn just with out compunding still op tho 

edit: this wob is close enough

Kythis

When you spike somebody, say a full Mistborn, with a steel spike, it could end up with four different charges.  Does it get all four of them it just depends on where you place it?  

Brandon Sanderson

Where you place it it can get all four.  Spiking a full Mistborn wastes a lot of power and the way that it's known, I mean, it doesn't have to, but the way that it's known to do it right now.

Footnote: Clarified here
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Nice WoB! I'd say that taking up to four powers is going the practical limit of normal Hemalurgy, since you'd need to place the spike in certain locations on your own Spiritweb to hotwire them to functionality.

In essence, you'd need to spike out a quadrant of powers that all have the same corresponding Bindpoints when stapled onto your own Spiritweb- otherwise only some of the powers would actually work.

Actually, with Atium acting as a universal Key, you might be able to take eight to sixteen instead (eight for physical Allomancy and Feruchemy, eight for mental Allomancy and Cognitive Feruchemy, and sixteen for temporal Allomantic, enhancement Allomantic, hybrid Feruchemical and spiritual Feruchemical powers) so long as the Bindpoints they need to be wired to are interchangeable.

The other problem you'd need to content with is Identity contamination though, which means you'd either need a way to overcome that or you'd need to spike a Mistborn and/or Full Feruchemist.

So it's theoretically possible with three spikes to take and use all Metallic Art powers, but for our purposes here we're trying to use confirmed Hemalurgic practices to make a champion, so one regular power per spike.

[.....]

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Nice WoB! I'd say that taking up to four powers is going the practical limit of normal Hemalurgy, since you'd need to place the spike in certain locations on your own Spiritweb to hotwire them to functionality.

In essence, you'd need to spike out a quadrant of powers that all have the same corresponding Bindpoints when stapled onto your own Spiritweb- otherwise only some of the powers would actually work.

Actually, with Atium acting as a universal Key, you might be able to take eight to sixteen instead (eight for physical Allomancy and Feruchemy, eight for mental Allomancy and Cognitive Feruchemy, and sixteen for temporal Allomantic, enhancement Allomantic, hybrid Feruchemical and spiritual Feruchemical powers) so long as the Bindpoints they need to be wired to are interchangeable.

The other problem you'd need to content with is Identity contamination though, which means you'd either need a way to overcome that or you'd need to spike a Mistborn and/or Full Feruchemist.

So it's theoretically possible with three spikes to take and use all Metallic Art powers, but for our purposes here we're trying to use confirmed Hemalurgic practices to make a champion, so one regular power per spike.

ok   too bad though

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm not sure about this one. You don't need to move to store speed in Steelmind, you can just sit. Pewter makes you run faster, yes, but that doesn't mean you can store more speed. Sitting doesn't make you store less speed than running so I think burning pewter might not give you more speed to store. But on the other hand A-pewter makes you generally faster and increases your reaction speed, so maybe.

 

Brandon Sanderson has said that you can store A-pewter strength in a pewtermind and A-pewter dose not just speed up your running it speeds up your whole body eg: vin says in TFE(don't remember where) that she cant burn pewter at the balls because the increased speed of movment and reaction time would give her away so you should be able to store pewter speed in a steelmind

Edited October 10, 2023 by .....

[Trusk'our]

12 minutes ago, ..... said:

ok   too bad though

Yup, sorry, but I felt that made for a more unique chance to combine specific powers to get an interesting end result. With that in mind, what are the three powers you'd choose for building a Hemalurgic warrior?

12 minutes ago, ..... said:

Brandon Sanderson has said that you can store A-pewter strength in a pewtermind and A-pewter dose not just speed up your running it speeds up your whole body eg: vin says in TFE(don't remember where) that she cant burn pewter at the balls because the increased speed of movment and reaction time would give her away so you should be able to store pewter speed in a steelmind

This very well could be the case. We just don't know for sure yet.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246/#e5503

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

It's also possible that the strength stored from A-pewter in a Pewtermind or speed from A-pewter would act slightly different from the attributes stored normally, such as strength tapped from A-pewter would be a magical boost to strength rather than a muscular one, or the extra tapped pewter speed being extra Kinetic energy more than temporal speed. That method actually makes the most sense to me at the moment, as storing the power shouldn't change what it actually does.

Spoiler for the quote's size inconvenience:

Spoiler

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Vodid

If you have caffeine, can you store that as wakefulness in a bronzemind?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that you can, but I think when you tap it out, you will have kind of the same effects, right. Like, you will feel like you are not quite as awake. Like that feeling you get, I think you guys know what I'm talking about. I think that you can, I think that you can hack the system with some things like that. That's my guess... That's my answer right now, but that's one pretty mutable, as we go forward.

Adam Horne

I'd be curious to see what you could do with that in Era 3, because pharmaceuticals will exist.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes well, you're already getting into the fact that you could replicate a lot of things, with... once they figure how to change types of Investiture and whatnot, then suddenly you've got some wacky things going on. Which is why a Mistborn cyberpunk would be so much fun, because metallurgic wetware would be fun. But no promises on that—I already have too many things to write. It's just that if I do write it, and I make it a trilogy, then we have sixteen books in the Mistborn series.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Trusk'our