Maximum Steelpush Destruction

[Trusk'our]

Usually, I make posts about crazy hypothetical uses of a magic system (usually Hemalurgy), but every once in a while, it's nice to make a relatively simple one, like guessing the maximum destructive force of a duralumin Steelpush.

In TLM we see that not Wax (Dumad) is able to casually toss transport trucks around at his enemies with a low level of Allomantic power and a single quick mouthful of metal flakes.

What kind of destructive potential would an Allomancer with a stomach packed to the brim with pewter and steel with a pinch of duralumin be able to do destruction wise?

What about a Lerasium Mistborn trying to do the same?

What if The Lord Ruler were to do this? Actually, TLR could easily shrug off being run through, so he could just take a large pair of solid steel and pewter bars, stab himself, and burn those as extra fuel. What kind of destructive potential would we see then?

Basically, what's the maximum destructive force of a Steelpush via the Metallic Arts?

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Usually, I make posts about crazy hypothetical uses of a magic system (usually Hemalurgy), but every once in a while, it's nice to make a relatively simple one, like guessing the maximum destructive force of a duralumin Steelpush.

Basically, what's the maximum destructive force of a Steelpush via the Metallic Arts?

We've seen this maximum destructive power. HoA ch 73:

Quote

Vin's mistcloak fluttered as she shot upward in the sky. Eight Inquisitors still chased her, reaching for her. Crying out, Vin raised her hands toward the creatures as she began to fall. Then, she Pushed.
She hadn't realized how strong her new powers were. They were obviously akin to duralumin, since she could affect the spikes inside of an Inquisitor's body. Her overpowering Push forced the whole flock of them downward, as if they'd been swatted. In fact, her Push also hit the metal spire directly beneath her.
The stone architecture holding the spire in place exploded, spraying chips and dust outward as the spire itself crushed the building beneath it. And Vin was thrown upward. 
[...]
When the Inquisitors had almost reached her, she Pushed outward again, throwing metal away from her with all the force as she could muster, while at the same time strengthening her body with a massive flare of pewter. Stone cracked. Inquisitors cried out.
And Kredik Shaw exploded.
Towers toppled from their foundations. Doors ripped free from their frames. Windows shattered. Blocks burst, the entire structure torn to pieces as its metals lurched away. She screamed as she Pushed, the ground trembling beneath her. Everything—even the rock and stone, which obviously contained residual traces of metal ore—was thrown violently back.

Given enough metal, or better pure Dor, a push like that can easily destroy massive buildings.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

We've seen this maximum destructive power. HoA ch 73:

Given enough metal, or better pure Dor, a push like that can easily destroy massive buildings.

This is really interesting as she was able to destroy so much without any access to F iron. I always thought that a steel push was contingent on either one thing or another being heavier. The fact that she did this while in the air and having no anchor to play with... its not even like she is described as pulling on surrounding structures to give her leverage... just steel. 

I dont know how much I like that. 

[Longshot97]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is really interesting as she was able to destroy so much without any access to F iron. I always thought that a steel push was contingent on either one thing or another being heavier. The fact that she did this while in the air and having no anchor to play with... its not even like she is described as pulling on surrounding structures to give her leverage... just steel. 

I dont know how much I like that. 

As true as that is, Vin was quite literally Ascending. I think we can classify that as beyond normal Allomantic means, as even Lerasium can only go so far before turning the Mistborn into straight-up Preservation. You know, in hindsight, it's almost impressive the Inquisitors survived as long as they did.

You bring up a good point about F-Iron. I would hypothesize the maximum level destruction to be just enough Compounded weight to avoid turning into a black hole, with just enough Lerasium-enhanced strength to avoid becoming a Vessel. Otherwise, that just becomes Shardic influence.

Edited October 8 by Longshot97

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

22 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

As true as that is, Vin was quite literally Ascending. I think we can classify that as beyond normal Allomantic means, as even Lerasium can only go so far before turning the Mistborn into straight-up Preservation. You know, in hindsight, it's almost impressive the Inquisitors survived as long as they did.

You bring up a good point about F-Iron. I would hypothesize the maximum level destruction to be just enough Compounded weight to avoid turning into a black hole, with just enough Lerasium-enhanced strength to avoid becoming a Vessel. Otherwise, that just becomes Shardic influence.

I want to picture steel and iron allomancy as an arrow. I always thought that the heavier the head of the arrow or the user the more the environment or the anchor needed to be strong. At first glance comparing the allomancer as the arrow head and the anchor point as the shaft spine weight was going to work great. Saying that the poundage of the bow is the allomantic strength.  

If the arrowhead moves you have a flying allomancer. Anything else moving or breaking is actually the shaft of the arrow snapping during the shooting of the bow. 

That would mean a small allomancer with a strong anchor can push easily. Or in my archery terms a smaller arrowhead on a stiffer spine is no problem.  Arrowhead goes forward as the spine pushes it. 

A heavier (the case of Wax tapping iron) allomancer would need a stronger base to get moving. Same as how you need a stiffer spine for shooting big heavy broadheads or else the in-between will shatter. If the user is too heavy the spine shatters which is what we see from Wax time and time again. 

In the case of duralumin and or ramping up allomantic power we could just jump the poundage of the bows up magnitudes and make it so that the bow is so powerful there is no spine that is strong enough to even propel the smallest of arrowheads.  Vins weight didn't matter because the anchors were not capable of withstanding the initial explosive power of a massive poundage bow. 

I think I like this a lot more than I thought I would. I was going to use this example to show that it must be more like a gun and the chamber/barrel being too weak for a hot loadout but I actually like the bow theory more. 

The power of the allomancy has an amount of time before it decides if the allomancer is going to move or if the object they are pushing on is going to move. Much like in archery there is an amount of time where energy is transfered from bow limbs and string down the arrow shaft before pushing the arrow head. As that energy is transferring the anchor (or spine) is either going to hold or it will shatter.  The archers paradox is a good example of where Wax bent the steel beams with his duralumin push... I am sure that was combined with his weight too. 

Which shows how much more powerful Vin was at that time. For her to crumple a city block with no added weight is like shooting a bow with such high poundage and power that it shatters a tree trunk without the arrowhead moving. This power is insane. 

Wax's example is great in that he was combining a high powered bow with his heavy arrowhead and the bending of the steel support beams of that building prove that he nearly (lack of practice with duralumin) miscalculated the entire thing. He was extremely lucky to moved because if the spine of that arrow were to shatter he would not have gone anywhere and been out of steel. In fact Wax's push and the bending of the steel suggests to me that he lost a lot of potential power and energy in the push from the start.  Had he spread his push over another beam as well he could have potentially overshot the ship he was jumping, blindly, towards.  

So yeah I think I like the Vin example more.  It actually makes a lot more sense when thinking of it as a bow and arrow for me now. It is possible that a super high poundage bow shatters the arrow shaft despite the size of the arrow head.  That is simply what we saw.  She was so many magnitudes higher in the explosiveness and energy produced by the allomantic push that the anchor she was using didn't matter at all. 

Size was the biggest factor for all of mistborn until playing with duralumin and lerasium and ascending via the mists.  

Wax can do a ton of things that Vin couldn't do because he can titrate the size of the arrowhead. Vin is always going to be a 75grain field tip and the spine of each individual anchor is going to change. A coin is toothpick being used as the projectile. The minute the coin hits the ground it becomes a tree trunk. 

Wax has the benefit of changing the size of his arrowhead.  He can be a 1grain piece of salt tied to the end of the toothpick if he wants or he can become a 400 grain single bevel broadhead attaching itself to a solid 200 spine shaft. 

Wax's feats are possible not because his bow poundage is changing but because he changes the weight of the arrowhead. Vins feats are possible not because her arrowhead size changes but because the poundage of that bow changes.   Duralumin is epic because it allows for that bow poundage to be exponentially stronger on demand.  

That said I don't think Vin would have caused more destruction had she been heavier.  The bow and arrowhead are both working in conjunction to destroy the shaft. If one or the other is too big then the destruction comes. For her to be so small and destroy that city block she was playing with a bow so powerful that her size would have made no difference.  Interestingly I don't know that Wax could pull that off with his level of allomancy alone even if he weighed 10 times more than the building itself. 

As was pointed out to me in another post once upon a time, Wax didn't explode the building in alloy of law.  He became so heavy that simply holding himself up with steel above it crushed the building under his weight. 

For this to be illustrated we just have to say his bow was attempting to fire him straight up and it wasn't the bow that did it. It was the fact that his arrow head got so heavy it cracked the shaft with gravity more than the allomancy. 

 

I think this has done a good job of answering the question in my mind.  The mechanisms were different. 

Wax's destruction was crushing power from his iron more than he steel where he used the size of the arrowhead to destroy the shaft. 

Vin's destruction was the explosive power of her steel allomancy or bow destroying the shaft despite her low weight. 

Wax having access to duralumin now allows him to play with both and we saw how dangerous that was and how tricky it is to judge by him almost snapping the shaft of the arrow with the steel beams bending. 

@Trusk'our with me definately not being an expert this is the best explanation I can come up with to satisfy my mind.

[therunner]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

We've seen this maximum destructive power. HoA ch 73:

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Which shows how much more powerful Vin was at that time. For her to crumple a city block with no added weight is like shooting a bow with such high poundage and power that it shatters a tree trunk without the arrowhead moving. This power is insane.

I think what Vin did there has less to do with Allomancy and more with the fact she was Ascending.

She quite clearly violates the most fundamental rule that no one escapes, that only the lighter of the objects (of the pushed objects and Allomancer) moves. The only way around it is to brace somehow, like when coin is on ground, or when Allomancer pushes in both directions simultaneously (like what Dumad did in TLM).

In that HoA scene, if Vin pushed out with that much force to break the stone spire, she would have been flown away insanely fast, as in she should probably break orbit.

Quote

Given enough metal, or better pure Dor, a push like that can easily destroy massive buildings.

We have seen what Dor can do, and it is nowhere near what Vin did in that scene.
Don't get me wrong Dor is probably the best way to create maximum destructiveness steelpush without involving other Invested Arts, but it would not be on that level.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I think what Vin did there has less to do with Allomancy and more with the fact she was Ascending.

She quite clearly violates the most fundamental rule that no one escapes, that only the lighter of the objects (of the pushed objects and Allomancer) moves. The only way around it is to brace somehow, like when coin is on ground, or when Allomancer pushes in both directions simultaneously (like what Dumad did in TLM).

In that HoA scene, if Vin pushed out with that much force to break the stone spire, she would have been flown away insanely fast, as in she should probably break orbit.

We have seen what Dor can do, and it is nowhere near what Vin did in that scene.
Don't get me wrong Dor is probably the best way to create maximum destructiveness steelpush without involving other Invested Arts, but it would not be on that level.

I would also say that everything written and given by Brandon is what is known by the characters. Heck the entire cognitive realm is based upon the way that mortals view the world right?  

Vin playing with power levels that noone has ever seen before doesn't necessarily mean she is breaking the rules.  In fact Vin does get thrown upward once the spire had crashed and suddenly Scadrial itself was the new arrow shaft (if I may stick to my analogy).  

I don't think that she is breaking the rules unless we simply are just now seeing the rules. 

Wouldn't the inertia of a table cloth being yanked out from under the place settings and them not all breaking vs it slowly being drug be enough to explain this?  

I am sure there are phenomena in physics where we learn how things work only after pushing further past what we know than we thought possible. 

Hence why I try to highlight the differences in how the buildings break under both characters.  They aren't the same because they are using different rules to do it. 

If anyone in mistborn ever talks about the strength of another allomancers pushes then there is clearly more going on than the simple, "known" rules of bigger stays smaller goes.  Noone should be surprised by another allomancers pushing power ever because there would never be a difference.   

The fact that Lerasium makes you stronger in the use of all of your metals and that duralumin is able to show the effects it does hints to a sliding scale of the explosiveness and potential power spikes.  

The spire was unable to withstand the explosive power of the push and crumpled.  Vin stayed temporarily because inertia and then Scadrial became her new anchor. 

I don't enjoy it when Brandon breaks the rules but I have seen him mention that all of the rules are based on PoV and those characters understanding of it at the time.  It makes total sense to say that Vin had such an enormous amount of power at her disposal that she pushed past the normal observable limits of the laws of allomancy and uncovered the mechanism of how it worked.

This doesn't mean that everyone else still has to follow the observable laws.... in fact they do.  But it does allow Brandon a bit of wiggle room to write according to rule of cool without needing to say he broke the rules.  

Vin was playing with Ascension levels of allomantic power. Not just her raw power but she had the capability to use pure investiture with that power to fuel a duralumin type of push with pure investiture.  How on earth does that make sense?  Maybe duralumin enhancements don't matter when you are playing the game as a god.  

My camera will never film the speed of light. Most cameras in the world will never film the speed of light. But in 2011 MIT built a camera that allowed them to film 1 trillion frames per second and they could film light travel through a bottle of water.  How much can they learn from that that will uncover the realities of how light works vs what we always assumed?  

Vin could have been playing within the rules of allomancy but simply possessed enough power in an ascending state that she showed us a layer of the way that allomancy works beyond what anyone else we will get as POV characters will show us.  

Doesn't mean Brandon broke the rules. Just that power magnitudes of gods uncover unobservable truths.  

 

Or he just broke the rules of allomancy cause it looked cool.  

Either way we know weight of the allomancer is important and there are different levels of power and both of those things matter. 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I think what Vin did there has less to do with Allomancy and more with the fact she was Ascending.

I didn't want to suggest otherwise, but this is still Allomancy, but fueled with the power of all Mists. This is the maximum but only achievable in those special circumstances. Normal Mistborn won't be able to do that, but still will be able to do a lot of damage - we saw Wax ruining the roof and construction on top of the tower in TLM with duralumin Steelpush, with a proper fuel, like pure Dor or crap ton of metal, a Mistborn would be able to fully destroy some buildings - not all, not Kredik Shaw like Vin. I didn't want to suggest that it would match Vin.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

She quite clearly violates the most fundamental rule that no one escapes, that only the lighter of the objects (of the pushed objects and Allomancer) moves. The only way around it is to brace somehow, like when coin is on ground, or when Allomancer pushes in both directions simultaneously (like what Dumad did in TLM).

In that HoA scene, if Vin pushed out with that much force to break the stone spire, she would have been flown away insanely fast, as in she should probably break orbit.

It was because her Steelpush was so powerful that mass didn't matter anymore. In TFE Vin could compete and match with Kelsier's Steelpush, despite Kelsier being twice as heavy as her - that was because her Allomancy was stronger than his. In HoA her power was so incomparably enormous, that it acted like she had the same mass as Kredik Shaw, and thus she wasn't flung into space. Mass and power are both factors when it comes to Steelpushes, and one can compensate for the lack of the other.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

We have seen what Dor can do, and it is nowhere near what Vin did in that scene.

We have not seen what pure Dor Steelpush can do, especially with duralumin. Emotional Allomancy fueled by Dor acts like duralumin enhanced Allomancy, A-cadmium produces bubbles with enormous time dilation, but we haven't seen what pure Dor Steelpush looks like. 

Edited October 9 by alder24

[therunner]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It was because her Steelpush was so powerful that mass didn't matter anymore. In TFE Vin could compete and match with Kelsier's Steelpush, despite Kelsier being twice as heavy as her - that was because her Allomancy was stronger than his. In HoA her power was so incomparably enormous, that it acted like she had the same mass as Kredik Shaw, and thus she wasn't flung into space. Mass and power are both factors when it comes to Steelpushes, and one can compensate for the lack of the other.

No actually that is not true.
When Vin matches Kelsier's push in their sparring match she is immediately flung backwards, and only when she flared did Kelsier move. (Chapter 9)
And earlier (Ch 7) Kelsier note that if object must be a lot more massive than the other one to stay still, with implication that if objects are close in mass than both will move to some extent. So what happened in the sparring match is perfectly in accordance with rules of Allomancy as explained by Kelsier, since Vin and Kelsier are at least same order of magnitude of mass.

But metal and stone tower is hundreds of times heavier than Vin is, so what happened at the end of HoA most certainly is not.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

We have not seen what pure Dor Steelpush can do, especially with duralumin. Emotional Allomancy fueled by Dor acts like duralumin enhanced Allomancy, A-cadmium produces bubbles with enormous time dilation, but we haven't seen what pure Dor Steelpush looks like. 

As you say, it seemingly does the same as Duralumin enhanced allomancy.
We have seen emotional Allomancy with both Dor and Duralumin, and they are comparable.
We have seen Bendalloy with Duralumin, and Cadmium with Dor and again the effects seemed comparable (though Wayne was more extreme, most likely due to massive amount of Bendalloy and his possible savantism).
 

So I would expect Dor Steelpush to be about as powerful as your usual Duralumin Steelpush and no more.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I didn't want to suggest otherwise, but this is still Allomancy, but fueled with the power of all Mists. This is the maximum but only achievable in those special circumstances.

And that is what I disagree with, I don't think it was Allomancy, more like Ascending Shard channeling power in a way it knew.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Normal Mistborn won't be able to do that, but still will be able to do a lot of damage - we saw Wax ruining the roof and construction on top of the tower in TLM with duralumin Steelpush, with a proper fuel, like pure Dor or crap ton of metal, a Mistborn would be able to fully destroy some buildings - not all, not Kredik Shaw like Vin. I didn't want to suggest that it would match Vin.

Wax also has F-Iron, that is important factor.
I don't think even Mistborn with Dor would be able to destroy building outright, that is simply too much power.

Wax jumped several kilometers, and destroyed unfinished construction. Mistborn without F-Iron won't do even that.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Vin playing with power levels that noone has ever seen before doesn't necessarily mean she is breaking the rules.  In fact Vin does get thrown upward once the spire had crashed and suddenly Scadrial itself was the new arrow shaft (if I may stick to my analogy).

Vin breaks rules as stated in that HoA moment. She pushed with so much power to literally crush and break stone and metal tower, and did not immediately fly hundreds of meters up.

Quote

The spire was unable to withstand the explosive power of the push and crumpled.  Vin stayed temporarily because inertia and then Scadrial became her new anchor. 

There was no inertia she had to speak off, so that argument does not make sense.

Quote

Vin was playing with Ascension levels of allomantic power. Not just her raw power but she had the capability to use pure investiture with that power to fuel a duralumin type of push with pure investiture.  How on earth does that make sense?  Maybe duralumin enhancements don't matter when you are playing the game as a god.  

 

Vin could have been playing within the rules of allomancy but simply possessed enough power in an ascending state that she showed us a layer of the way that allomancy works beyond what anyone else we will get as POV characters will show us.  

And that is my point. Vin was literally Ascending in that moment. So perhaps the fact that she 'broke the rules' has less to do with lack of understanding, and more to do with the fact that what she was doing was effectively no longer Allomancy and was closer to more fundamental rules of Cosmere, just expressed through 'Allomantic' channel because that is what she knows.

I.e. Stormlight spoiler

Spoiler

Jasnah can create matter from Investiture via Soulcasting.
Shards can create entire planets from Investiture via Soulcasting.

If we saw Jasnah create e.g. entire mountain range if she was Ascending, that does not mean that upper limit on Elsecallers is 'create mountain range.'

Basically at that point Vin has so much raw power at her disposal that she can do things that no one who is not Ascending will ever reach.

TLDR: Taking a feat of someone who is literally Ascending in that moment as upper limit on Invested Art is a bit dubious claim in my opinion.

Quote

My camera will never film the speed of light. Most cameras in the world will never film the speed of light. But in 2011 MIT built a camera that allowed them to film 1 trillion frames per second and they could film light travel through a bottle of water.  How much can they learn from that that will uncover the realities of how light works vs what we always assumed?  

Not much, we know how light works astonishingly well (QED is the single most accurate theory we have ever created).

Edited October 9 by therunner

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, therunner said:

No actually that is not true.
When Vin matches Kelsier's push in their sparring match she is immediately flung backwards, and only when she flared did Kelsier move. (Chapter 9)
And earlier (Ch 7) Kelsier note that if object must be a lot more massive than the other one to stay still, with implication that if objects are close in mass than both will move to some extent. So what happened in the sparring match is perfectly in accordance with rules of Allomancy as explained by Kelsier, since Vin and Kelsier are at least same order of magnitude of mass.

But metal and stone tower is hundreds of times heavier than Vin is, so what happened at the end of HoA most certainly is not.

Vin is stronger than the average Allomancer and the Allomantic power matters alongside weight when it comes to Steelpushes. HoA ch 3:

Quote

Elend flipped a coin into the air. A single, sparkling bit of copper spun through the flakes of ash. The Inquisitor saw this, and smiled again, obviously anticipating Elend's Push. It assumed that its weight would transfer through the coin, then hit Elend's weight, since Elend would be Pushing as well. Two Allomancers of near-similar weight, shoving against each other. They would both be thrown back—the Inquisitor to attack Vin, Elend into a pile of koloss.
Except, the Inquisitor didn't anticipate Elend's Allomantic strength. How could it? Elend did stumble, but the Inquisitor was thrown away with a sudden, violent Push.
He's so powerful! Vin thought, watching the surprised Inquisitor fall. Elend was no ordinary Allomancer—he might not have learned perfect control yet, but when he flared his metals and Pushed, he could really Push.

HoA Epilogue Epigraph:

Quote

Vin was unusually talented and strong with Allomancy, even from the beginning. I believe that she must have drawn some of the mist into her when she was still a child, in those brief times when she wasn't wearing the earring

We don't know precisely what happened at that sparring match, as we don't have Kel's PoV and we don't know if he was burning or flaring steel. After the sparring Kel was surprised how strong Vin was and that she matched him with Steelpush, TFE ch 9:

Quote

“I’m not sure. Today, when we were training, we got into a Steelpush shoving match. The kid has to weigh less than half what I do, but she gave me a decent pummeling anyway.”
“Different people have different strengths in Allomancy,” Sazed said.
“Yes, but the variance isn’t usually this great,”

At the moment of Ascension Vin would be orders of magnitude stronger than any Allomancer ever, incomparable to anyone with all of the power of the Mists flowing into her. So this is a theoretical maximum of how strong a Steelpush can be. Theoretical, as practically nobody can replicate this.

Just a moment after the palace destruction she lurched a massive, building sized metal spire towards herself, like it was nothing. Her power was that enormously strong that instead of flying towards the spire, the spire flew to her despite the mass difference, HoA ch 73:

Quote

Three rushed her at once. She screamed, turning, Pulling on a fallen spire. The massive piece of metal—nearly as big as a building itself—lurched into the air, spinning at her command. She slammed it into the Inquisitors like a club, crushing them. She turned, leaving the enormous iron pillar resting atop their corpses.

 

30 minutes ago, therunner said:

So I would expect Dor Steelpush to be about as powerful as your usual Duralumin Steelpush and no more.

This is not about Dor Steelpush, this is about Dor Steelpush with duralumin - this would be much stronger then usual Duralumin Steelpush.

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

And that is what I disagree with, I don't think it was Allomancy, more like Ascending Shard channeling power in a way it knew.

Disagree. She was Ascending, yes, but she wasn't a Shard yet. Mists are a super-charged fuel for Allomancy, working as metals - at that point she couldn't do anything more with them even if she wanted to. She was getting filled to the brim with Mists and she used that to fuel her Allomancy. HoA ch 73:

Quote

She shouldn't have been alive. She'd run out of pewter, yet she felt it flaring inside, burning brighter than it ever had before. She felt as if the bleeding sun itself blazed within her, running molten through her veins.
Her every Steelpush or Ironpull slammed against her as if it were made with the power of duralumin. Yet, the metal reserves within her did not vanish. Instead, they grew stronger. Vaster.

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vin Draws In All the Mist

Here we finally have Vin suck in the mists and use them to fuel her Allomancy completely. I began building this plot arc way back in book one, which ends with Vin drawing upon the mists to fight the Lord Ruler. It took me all the way until here to make good on that, though I still don't even explain how or why she was able to do it. Eventually I'd like to be able to do that, but we'll see. It's bigger than this trilogy. I have to leave some secrets for later.

I do want to mention that this scene of Vin blasting Kredik Shaw to pieces was quite fulfilling to write for some reason. It feels like the end of a series to me, with familiar places being torn down and old expectations being dismantled.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 13, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Even Brandon talks about using the power of the Well just to fuel Allomancy if you are a Mistborn:

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Wax also has F-Iron, that is important factor.

True.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Vin breaks rules as stated in that HoA moment. She pushed with so much power to literally crush and break stone and metal tower, and did not immediately fly hundreds of meters up.

She did fly immediately up:

Quote

Vin's mistcloak fluttered as she shot upward in the sky. Eight Inquisitors still chased her, reaching for her. Crying out, Vin raised her hands toward the creatures as she began to fall. Then, she Pushed.
She hadn't realized how strong her new powers were. They were obviously akin to duralumin, since she could affect the spikes inside of an Inquisitor's body. Her overpowering Push forced the whole flock of them downward, as if they'd been swatted. In fact, her Push also hit the metal spire directly beneath her.
The stone architecture holding the spire in place exploded, spraying chips and dust outward as the spire itself crushed the building beneath it. And Vin was thrown upward.
Very quickly.
She blasted through the sky, mists streaking past her, the force of her Push straining even her mist-enhanced body with the stress of sudden acceleration.
And then she was out. She emerged into the open air, like a fish leaping from the water. Beneath her, the mists covered the nighttime land like an enormous white blanket. Around her, there was only open air. Unsettling, strange. Above her, a million stars—normally visible only to Allomancers— watched her like the eyes of those long dead.
Her momentum ran out, and she spun quietly, whiteness below, light above. She notice that she'd trailed a line of mist up out of the main cloud. This hung like a tether ready to pull her back down. In fact, all the mists were spinning slightly in what looked like an enormous weather pattern. A whirlpool of white.
The heart of the whirlpool was directly beneath her.
She fell, plummeting back down toward the earth below. She entered the mists, drawing them behind her, breathing them in. Even as she fell, she could feel them surging about her in a massive, empire-wide spiral. She welcomed them into herself, and the vortex of mist around her grew more and more violent.
Instants later, Luthadel appeared, a massive black welt upon the land. She fell down, streaking toward Kredik Shaw and its spires, which seemed to be pointing toward her.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

TLDR: Taking a feat of someone who is literally Ascending in that moment as upper limit on Invested Art is a bit dubious claim in my opinion.

You're looking at the practical maximum, I'm searching for a theoretical one as that's what I often do. In practical applications the damage wouldn't be as big as what Vin did - there is no doubt about it. I will refraze my original statement from "easily destroy massive buildings", as that was a bit overboard and misleading, to "some buildings" as a Mistborn, with access to dozens of jars of Dor would be able to create powerful duralumin enhanced Steelpush to destroy many metal based structures, especially if that push is focused on created weak points in a structure, which would cause a further collapse.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Vin is stronger than the average Allomancer and the Allomantic power matters alongside weight when it comes to Steelpushes. HoA ch 3:

HoA Epilogue Epigraph:

We don't know precisely what happened at that sparring match, as we don't have Kel's PoV and we don't know if he was burning or flaring steel. After the sparring Kel was surprised how strong Vin was and that she matched him with Steelpush, TFE ch 9:

Thanks for those quotes, I stand corrected.

I will point out that in all of those scenarios it is two allomancers matching strength, not allomancer pushing on environment.
How power would factor into Allomancer pushing on environment, so that it is the heavier object which is moved I don't know how would work.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Just a moment after the palace destruction she lurched a massive, building sized metal spire towards herself, like it was nothing. Her power was that enormously strong that instead of flying towards the spire, the spire flew to her despite the mass difference, HoA ch 73:

Which is again when she is Ascending, and is again demonstration of how she is breaking relatively fundamental rules of Allomancy.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

This is not about Dor Steelpush, this is about Dor Steelpush with duralumin - this would be much stronger then usual Duralumin Steelpush.

Would it?
Duralumin enhances regular Allomancy because suddenly you are drawing much more Investiture from SR than when burning, like an extreme version of flaring.

But with Dor, you are already using as much Investiture as you have available.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Disagree. She was Ascending, yes, but she wasn't a Shard yet. Mists are a super-charged fuel for Allomancy, working as metals - at that point she couldn't do anything more with them even if she wanted to. She was getting filled to the brim with Mists and she used that to fuel her Allomancy. HoA ch 73:

Mists are not supercharged fuel, they are just gaseous Investiture just like Stormlight.
She was doing (when drawing on Mists) similar thing to what they do with Dor at the end of TLM.

Of course, she was also Ascending, which we know enhances and expands the user.

All the moments quoted from HoA happen in at most 5 minutes in which Vin goes from 'Strong Allomancer' to 'Shard'. She is getting stronger every second as she is drawing more and more Mist into her.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Even Brandon talks about using the power of the Well just to fuel Allomancy if you are a Mistborn:

  Reveal hidden contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

Wielding full power of Well of Ascension is literal temporary Ascension. That is why Rashek is a Sliver.

At that point you are not Mistborn, you are a Shard temporarily.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

She did fly immediately up:

I stand corrected.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You're looking at the practical maximum, I'm searching for a theoretical one as that's what I often do. In practical applications the damage wouldn't be as big as what Vin did - there is no doubt about it.

And I again say that Vin at the end of HoA cannot be considered as an example because she is not just fueled by pure Investiture, but also actively in rather quick process of Ascension.

She goes from 'Strong Allomancer' (where she is basically killed by Inqusitors in seconds) to 'Shard' in less than 5 minutes. And I strongly doubt it was just a toggle, i.e. that she was 'just' a strong Allomancer fueled by Mists until the exact moment she vanished.
Instead I think it makes more sense that as she is Ascending she is getting stronger all the time, as she is literally absorbing the entire physical manifestation of Preservation.

At the start of the fight, shortly after she started drawing in the Mists she describes that her Pushes and Pulls are as strong as Duralumin fueled

Quote

Her every Steelpush or Ironpull slammed against her as if it were made with power of Duralumin.

And shortly afterwards she demonstrates feats far beyond any application of Duralumin, like with the destruction of Kredik Shaw.

She is also physically enhanced enough that Inquisitors with F-Steel no longer seem fast to her. And as you yourself quoted she describes how the reserves are getting stronger and vaster:

Quote

Yet, the metal reserves within her did not vanish. Instead, they grew stronger. Vaster. She wasn't certain what was happening to her.

Which from context implies that they are continually getting stronger as she fights.

Quote

I will refraze my original statement from "easily destroy massive buildings", as that was a bit overboard and misleading, to "some buildings" as a Mistborn, with access to dozens of jars of Dor would be able to create powerful duralumin enhanced Steelpush to destroy many metal based structures, especially if that push is focused on created weak points in a structure, which would cause a further collapse.

Some wooden building sure. Cinder buildings maybe. Modern concrete structures? I don't think so. Even if we take Vin as upper peak, modern structures would be sturdier than Kredik Shaw, if properly built.

Sidenote: I know Duralumin is per WoB usable with kinetic Investiture, but it is kind of odd to me. Duralumin works by burning your metals all at once, and so provides you with more Investiture than you would get, but why would it affect usage of Investiture directly?

 

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, therunner said:

Would it?
Duralumin enhances regular Allomancy because suddenly you are drawing much more Investiture from SR than when burning, like an extreme version of flaring.

But with Dor, you are already using as much Investiture as you have available.

Duralumin+Surgebinding would work. I don't think we have any confirmation that you can have such control when you're fueled by Dor. It's not like every Dor-powered Allomancy uses all of Dor at once.

Spoiler

Dwarven_Hydra

Would a Duralumin Gnat Surgebinder be able to use duralumin to do a super Surge?

Brandon Sanderson

This (Duralumin+Surgebinding) would work.

General Signed Books 2019 (July 2, 2019)

 

46 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mists are not supercharged fuel, they are just gaseous Investiture just like Stormlight.

Yes, and compared to what metals can give you, Mists are super-fuel, that's how Brandon called them and that's what I was referring to.

47 minutes ago, therunner said:

She was doing (when drawing on Mists) similar thing to what they do with Dor at the end of TLM.

Of course, she was also Ascending, which we know enhances and expands the user.

Or Vin had access to much more investiture, which grew overtime, than what Metalborns at the end of TLM had, which made her Allomancy ever stronger than what Dor can provide.

It might be just a mix of those two factors - Ascending and lots of investiture - that made her Allomancy so strong. 

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

Wielding full power of Well of Ascension is literal temporary Ascension. That is why Rashek is a Sliver.

Yes, but the WoB specifically said "a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension" - if you are not a Mistborn, you can't use Allomancy even in the Well (but you can make yourself an Allomancer with that power and then use that power for Allomancy).

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Instead I think it makes more sense that as she is Ascending she is getting stronger all the time, as she is literally absorbing the entire physical manifestation of Preservation.

Yes, I forgot to point out she was getting stronger during that time. It might be because she had more and more investiture in her, her Allomancy got proportionally stronger, as the quote stated "reserves were getting stronger and vaster" - stronger, not larger, not greater but stronger.

I don't think we will settle this debate as there are no concrete statements proving that Vin was so strong either because she was Ascending or because she was consuming more and more Mists and using them as fuel. It's best to meet in the middle and agree that both of those things together caused her Allomancy to be that strong.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Some wooden building sure. Cinder buildings maybe. Modern concrete structures? I don't think so. Even if we take Vin as upper peak, modern structures would be sturdier than Kredik Shaw, if properly built.

Modern concrete structures - Wax with the Bands sent rocks flying, with barely any metal in them (both the Bands and the Dor fueled Allomancy were compared to the power of TLR's Allomancy), why not concrete with steel reinforcement in them (if you take Vin then she literally exploded stones)? More sturdier structures might be destroyed by deforming or breaking weight bearing columns which might cause a total collapse. There are many steel structures with steel skeletons and those would be very vulnerable to those kinds of Steelpushes.

[therunner]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Duralumin+Surgebinding would work. I don't think we have any confirmation that you can have such control when you're fueled by Dor. It's not like every Dor-powered Allomancy uses all of Dor at once.

  Reveal hidden contents

Dwarven_Hydra

Would a Duralumin Gnat Surgebinder be able to use duralumin to do a super Surge?

Brandon Sanderson

This (Duralumin+Surgebinding) would work.

General Signed Books 2019 (July 2, 2019)

 

Yeah this is true. I referenced it at the end of my post, but forgot to edit the earlier part.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, and compared to what metals can give you, Mists are super-fuel, that's how Brandon called them and that's what I was referring to.

But unless Mists actively enhance your Allomancy, they are just Dor like (which we have seen in TLM), or less (if as some claim Dor is more concentrated form of Investiture than gaseous one).

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or Vin had access to much more investiture, which grew overtime, than what Metalborns at the end of TLM had, which made her Allomancy ever stronger than what Dor can provide.

But as you point out, having more Dor does not make you stronger, you just have larger reserves.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It might be just a mix of those two factors - Ascending and lots of investiture - that made her Allomancy so strong.

That is basically what I am thinking. Which would make her poor example.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but the WoB specifically said "a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension" - if you are not a Mistborn, you can't use Allomancy even in the Well (but you can make yourself an Allomancer with that power and then use that power for Allomancy).

Well yeah, but at the end it is still temporary Ascension. At that point 'being Mistborn' is secondary factor to the power. And I think you could use Allomancy-like effects even if you are not Allomancer.

When wielding Well you can literally move planets, pushing on metal or emotions is trivial in comparison, so wielder of Well could do anything Mistborn can do without being Mistborn themselves.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I forgot to point out she was getting stronger during that time. It might be because she had more and more investiture in her, her Allomancy got proportionally stronger, as the quote stated "reserves were getting stronger and vaster" - stronger, not larger, not greater but stronger.

Ehm, vaster means larger. So the reserves were getting both stronger and larger/greater, literally according to the segment you quoted.
So she is both getting stronger in Allomancy, and she has more reserves to draw from.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think we will settle this debate as there are no concrete statements proving that Vin was so strong either because she was Ascending or because she was consuming more and more Mists and using them as fuel. It's best to meet in the middle and agree that both of those things together caused her Allomancy to be that strong.

I do think it is both of those things in a sense, but only because her consuming Mists is her Ascending. They are one and the same.
Either way, her Ascending spoils the data.

Edit: And yes, we can agree to disagree

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Modern concrete structures - Wax with the Bands sent rocks flying, with barely any metal in them (both the Bands and the Dor fueled Allomancy were compared to the power of TLR's Allomancy), why not concrete with steel reinforcement in them (if you take Vin then she literally exploded stones)?

They were compared to TLR's Allomancy by people who have never experienced TLR, not the most reliable sources. Not to mention that both cannot be true, Bands are clearly vastly more powerful than Dor-fueled Allomancy.

On top of that, BoM themselves are quite a mystery, and possibly enhance Investiture levels via Feruchemy. If we allow other Invested Arts to enhance metalborn, then we can include them, however I was under the impression that we are considering only Mistborn with no 'external' help outside of fuel. If we do take that as possibility, then yes weaker concrete with steel reinforcement could be possibly broken.

And Vin did not explode stones directly, metal pushed into the stones destroyed them. As far as I recall she did not push on any non-metal even when Ascending, though it was probably within her abilities, but Intent would limit her.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

More sturdier structures might be destroyed by deforming or breaking weight bearing columns which might cause a total collapse. There are many steel structures with steel skeletons and those would be very vulnerable to those kinds of Steelpushes.

A lot of those structures are sturdier than you give them credit for I think. Especially building build to tolerate earthquakes would bear that additional stress well.

Maybe if the Mistborn stood in the middle of all of those columns, and pushed outwards with Duralumin so that they would be braced. But that would be suicidal move.

 

To me the most reliable 'peak' Allomancy is either Vin or Elend with Duralumin, and/or Allomancers wielding Dor at the end of TLM. Other events either other Invested Arts are involved (nearly anything Wax does, BoM) or the person is Ascending to a Shard when performing those feats.

Edited October 9 by therunner

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ehm, vaster means larger. So the reserves were getting both stronger and larger/greater, literally according to the segment you quoted.
So she is both getting stronger in Allomancy, and she has more reserves to draw from.

Yes, yes, I was focusing on the "stronger" part only.

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

They were compared to TLR's Allomancy by people who have never experienced TLR, not the most reliable sources. Not to mention that both cannot be true, Bands are clearly vastly more powerful than Dor-fueled Allomancy.

We don't really have any direct comparison as Wax didn't use the same powers as Metalborns powered by Dor in TLM.

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

As far as I recall she did not push on any non-metal even when Ascending, though it was probably within her abilities, but Intent would limit her.

She did, she pushed on trace amounts of metal inside rocks:

Quote

She screamed as she Pushed, the ground trembling beneath her. Everything—even the rock and stone, which obviously contained residual traces of metal ore—was thrown violently back.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

To me the most reliable 'peak' Allomancy is either Vin or Elend with Duralumin, and/or Allomancers wielding Dor at the end of TLM. Other events either other Invested Arts are involved (nearly anything Wax does, BoM) or the person is Ascending to a Shard when performing those feats.

Liquid Dor makes it really hard to think about the power.  

Duralumin sets off a seeming chain reaction between itself and any other metals burning nonstop and with no cap until they are both gone. 

How would that reaction work if the user of a single source like Dor were to burn it as both steel and duralumin?  Taking a stomach full of Dor and using it instantly. 

We know Dor made those using it magnitudes stronger but do we know if that put them at some theoretical cap?  Would a mistborn made from a lerasium chunk like Elend be on even footing with a mistborn after 1300+ years of genetic weakening so long as they both use Dor? 

I would think Dor on lerasium mistborn being used as duralumin plus steel would show us pushes that could only be outshined by Vin at the time of her ascending. 

@alder24 thanks for all of those examples in text. It would certainly seem that allomantic strength can compensate for size difference afterall. 

I think the idea of having that ascended level of allomancy is neat but at the same time it would really become impractical to use for flying. Zane did show us the ability to burn at lower rates to exert less explosive force as well which would be super important for anyone wanting to fly and not destroy cities with power levels that high.  

Edit:  could a combination of a nicroburst and any single other allomancer have drained the pool near instantly?  I can't remember if they were physically drinking anything there but I imagine a nicroburst / misting x combo would have been nearly as effective at draining the pool as a mistborn could have been using it as duralumin / aluminum / chromium. Heck a leecher in the pool probably could have drained it instantly solo right?  Speaking of Marasi scene. 

Edited October 9 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[StanLemon]

Reading through this chain I have a few comments. 

First, Steelpushing and Ironpulling make monumentally more sense if you think of them as applying an identical force on the metal and Allomancer. It's only because of Newton's third law does the lighter object move, not some intrinsic aspect of heavier vs lighter objects. A good example of this is when not-Wax Duralumin fueled Pushes off a car and the car is flattened from the force of the Steelpush while he's launched into the air. If it was just his weight vs the car he could never flatten it like that , but it makes a lot more sense if the care suddenly had an incredible force applied to it and nowhere to go. I think there is plenty more we don't know about how Pushing/Pulling work but it does seem the more power put into it the less counterbalance of weight matters.

Secondly, we see near Vin Ascension levels when Wax uses the Bands. He Pushes a boulder off of him by the trace metals in it. And then proceeds to use a Steelpush that smashed through a stone wall

 

[therunner]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

We don't really have any direct comparison as Wax didn't use the same powers as Metalborns powered by Dor in TLM.

But we do have short description of what is happening. E.g. metal is shaking and breaking apart. If non-metal was affected you would think Marasi would mention it, because that would be a big deal.

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

She did, she pushed on trace amounts of metal inside rocks:

 

Thanks for the correction.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Duralumin sets off a seeming chain reaction between itself and any other metals burning nonstop and with no cap until they are both gone. 

How would that reaction work if the user of a single source like Dor were to burn it as both steel and duralumin?  Taking a stomach full of Dor and using it instantly.

No that is not how it works.
When you burn Duralumin all other metals are burned in the instant, but Duralumin is not consumed like that.

 

Quote

We know Dor made those using it magnitudes stronger but do we know if that put them at some theoretical cap?  Would a mistborn made from a lerasium chunk like Elend be on even footing with a mistborn after 1300+ years of genetic weakening so long as they both use Dor? 

Well that depends.
If strength of Allomancer is based on how much Investiture they get from burning metal, then all Allomancers are equally strong when using Dor because then this is no longer a factor.

Quote

I would think Dor on lerasium mistborn being used as duralumin plus steel would show us pushes that could only be outshined by Vin at the time of her ascending. 

I don't think it would be near that, but we have no data.

Quote

Edit:  could a combination of a nicroburst and any single other allomancer have drained the pool near instantly?  I can't remember if they were physically drinking anything there but I imagine a nicroburst / misting x combo would have been nearly as effective at draining the pool as a mistborn could have been using it as duralumin / aluminum / chromium. Heck a leecher in the pool probably could have drained it instantly solo right?  Speaking of Marasi scene. 

Leecher would certainly not drain it instantly, leeching is not instantaneous (it only appears to be because Allomancers typically have so little metal in them).

And if leeching is not instantaneous, than its paired alloy should not be either. So Nicroburst would also not be able to help burn it up all at once.

Incidentally, this is why I think Duralumin (and Aluminum) would also not use up all the Investiture in one big outburst. The other two metals enhancements metals are not instantaneous.

[Trusk'our]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Well that depends.
If strength of Allomancer is based on how much Investiture they get from burning metal, then all Allomancers are equally strong when using Dor because then this is no longer a factor.

I think that a naturally stronger Allomancer using and equal amount of Purified Dor as a lesser Allomancer would be more efficient and therefore would require less Dor to achieve the same end result, as the stronger your Allomancy becomes the more efficient it becomes (as well as drawing more Investiture from Preservation). 

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1901

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Well that depends.
If strength of Allomancer is based on how much Investiture they get from burning metal, then all Allomancers are equally strong when using Dor because then this is no longer a factor.

If their strength of Allomancy is equal, then their skill and quality of their Allomancy would make the difference:

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Edited October 10 by alder24

[therunner]

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that a naturally stronger Allomancer using and equal amount of Purified Dor as a lesser Allomancer would be more efficient and therefore would require less Dor to achieve the same end result, as the stronger your Allomancy becomes the more efficient it becomes (as well as drawing more Investiture from Preservation). 

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e1901

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

 

The WoB above sounds to me like exactly what I said, stronger Allomancers get more Investiture per unit of metal burned, i.e. they use metal more efficiently.

Which means that once they are fueled by Dor, this advantage goes away, because there is no metal to burn.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

If their strength of Allomancy is equal, then their skill and quality of their Allomancy would make the difference:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Yes, skill would make a difference I never said it would not. Only that strength would be the same.
Savantism would be additional factor that I have not considered. So those that used their powers for longer would be tiny bit better, because savantism does not make you strictly stronger.

[DrPhysics]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:35 AM, therunner said:

She quite clearly violates the most fundamental rule that no one escapes, that only the lighter of the objects (of the pushed objects and Allomancer) moves.

Kelsier states the rule that way, but as we see more scenes with allomancy, it becomes apparent that the pushes follow Newton's third law: if you push on something it pushes back just as hard.  Every time you push, both objects feel the force, the effect is just more apparent on the lighter object. If two things were the same mass, they would move away from eachother at the same rate.

 

If you are already moving (like Vin falling), it takes a while for that force to slow you to a stop and turn you around, which is why Vin could crush the tower. 

[therunner]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:26 AM, DrPhysics said:

Kelsier states the rule that way, but as we see more scenes with allomancy, it becomes apparent that the pushes follow Newton's third law: if you push on something it pushes back just as hard.  Every time you push, both objects feel the force, the effect is just more apparent on the lighter object. If two things were the same mass, they would move away from eachother at the same rate.

Except that cannot be true.

If that was true, then in Vin's first demonstration she would not be sent violently flying away the moment coin hits the wall.
Vin was pushing with the same force on the coin the entire time, but only once the coin hit the wall was she pushed away.
So there was a sharp increase in force acting on Vin, despite Vin not actually changing the strength of her push.  But per 3rd Newton law, the force acting on her should still be the same.

So Newton's 3rd Law does not hold, at least not without modifications.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Except that cannot be true.

If that was true, then in Vin's first demonstration she would not be sent violently flying away the moment coin hits the wall.
Vin was pushing with the same force on the coin the entire time, but only once the coin hit the wall was she pushed away.
So there was a sharp increase in force acting on Vin, despite Vin not actually changing the strength of her push.  But per 3rd Newton law, the force acting on her should still be the same.

So Newton's 3rd Law does not hold, at least not without modifications.

Not necessarily.

If you stand up and push out with your arms as hard as you can against the air nothing will happen to you. If you do the same thing but push against a wall you will fall if you don't brace yourself.

[therunner]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not necessarily.

If you stand up and push out with your arms as hard as you can against the air nothing will happen to you. If you do the same thing but push against a wall you will fall if you don't brace yourself.

Not the same thing.

You don't apply the same force to the air and to the wall, if you did you would be pushed back in the same way.
What you do is, you move your hand and as a side-effect you push air out of the way. The force required to push air is negligible so you don't really feel any backreaction.
If you try to move your hand as you would in the air you won't get pushed back particularly strongly back away from the fall.

But Vin clearly does apply force to the coin (since the coin moves with considerable acceleration), and that force does not change whether the coin is in the air or hits the wall. And since the force does not change, neither does the backreaction, and so Vin should be thrown back in both cases, if 3rd Law is to hold unmodified.

[Duxredux]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Not the same thing.

You don't apply the same force to the air and to the wall, if you did you would be pushed back in the same way.
What you do is, you move your hand and as a side-effect you push air out of the way. The force required to push air is negligible so you don't really feel any backreaction.
If you try to move your hand as you would in the air you won't get pushed back particularly strongly back away from the fall.

But Vin clearly does apply force to the coin (since the coin moves with considerable acceleration), and that force does not change whether the coin is in the air or hits the wall. And since the force does not change, neither does the backreaction, and so Vin should be thrown back in both cases, if 3rd Law is to hold unmodified.

Uh... I'm self-conscious about explaining physics when there's a literal professor on the thread, but aren't you ignoring the normal force in your explanations? The only difference between abruptly thrusting your arms forward and a pushup is the normal force. In the case of Vin and the coin, pushing with the coin is the equivalent of pushing out with a stick and the stick running into an unexpected wall but with way more force. Force is added into the equation when the coin or stick hits the wall via the normal force even though the force of the push remains constant. In Vin's case the amount of force she was applying to the coin would have been sufficient to throw her to the side had the coin started out pressed against the wall.

My terminology is rusty, but it feels like you're conflating force with another concept, maybe work.

Edited October 26 by Duxredux
added thought