Returned Feeding Hemalurgically

[Trusk'our]

As you all know if you've read Warbreaker (as you should have if you are on this forum, I'd think) we know that Returned need to feed on a source of Investiture about once every eight Nalthian days or they perish. We also know that they can feed off of Investiture of other Shards than Endowment, such as Stormlight.

But what are some other ways they could do this? Most in particular, could a Returned Hemalurgically spike someone, take their Innate Investiture and then breath it in and feed on it? Would they need to spike it into their body and use it up automatically like they would with Breaths?

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

As you all know if you've read Warbreaker (as you should have if you are on this forum, I'd think) we know that Returned need to feed on a source of Investiture about once every eight Nalthian days or they perish. We also know that they can feed off of Investiture of other Shards than Endowment, such as Stormlight.

But what are some other ways they could do this? Most in particular, could a Returned Hemalurgically spike someone, take their Innate Investiture and then breath it in and feed on it? Would they need to spike it into their body and use it up automatically like they would with Breaths?

Well, I guess the spike would need to be inserted into Returned for him to feed from it (because removing investiture from spike would be really, really hard, so you need to connect it with your soul), and it likely would have to be equal to 1 Breath worth of investiture, but why do it this way? Just steal Allomancy or Feruchemy and use investiture from invested arts instead of wounding his spirit web only to suck investiture from spikes. 

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

As you all know if you've read Warbreaker (as you should have if you are on this forum, I'd think) we know that Returned need to feed on a source of Investiture about once every eight Nalthian days or they perish. We also know that they can feed off of Investiture of other Shards than Endowment, such as Stormlight.

But what are some other ways they could do this? Most in particular, could a Returned Hemalurgically spike someone, take their Innate Investiture and then breath it in and feed on it? Would they need to spike it into their body and use it up automatically like they would with Breaths?

Seems inefficient. Instead of making one Drab per week, make one corpse per week just to die of having too many spikes. I think a better way would be to get some Taldain Sand, let it recharge by exposure to Awakening (or other Kinetic investiture), then form the Luhel Bond and absorb the stored investiture (making the sand black again - repeat as necessary)

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think a better way would be to get some Taldain Sand, let it recharge by exposure to Awakening (or other Kinetic investiture), then form the Luhel Bond and absorb the stored investiture (making the sand black again - repeat as necessary)

That's just using Breaths with extra steps  

[Trusk'our]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Well, I guess the spike would need to be inserted into Returned for him to feed from it (because removing investiture from spike would be really, really hard, so you need to connect it with your soul), and it likely would have to be equal to 1 Breath worth of investiture, but why do it this way? Just steal Allomancy or Feruchemy and use investiture from invested arts instead of wounding his spirit web only to suck investiture from spikes. 

I was thinking more along the lines of a Worldhopping Returned, or one that didn't have anyone willing to give them their Breaths such as the ones that live outside of T'Telir and are regarded as vampires.

Also, couldn't they use a power stealing spike- such as steel- then take a non-Allomancer's Investiture to use as fuel?

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Seems inefficient. Instead of making one Drab per week, make one corpse per week just to die of having too many spikes. I think a better way would be to get some Taldain Sand, let it recharge by exposure to Awakening (or other Kinetic investiture), then form the Luhel Bond and absorb the stored investiture (making the sand black again - repeat as necessary)

Oh, it definitely would be less efficient. It just might be a way for a Returned to feed when there are no other options available.

[Treamayne]

Just now, alder24 said:

That's just using Breaths with extra steps 

And without making anybody Drab. 

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, couldn't they use a power stealing spike- such as steel- then take a non-Allomancer's Investiture to use as fuel?

Well, the Allomancy would still be tied to Preservation, so I think it would be difficult to power it with breath or something. Though, that brings up a different thought - if a stored attribute is investiture, could a Returned with H-Feruchemy store attibutes to consume weekly? Oh, I'll store 25% of my weight each day and consume-it-as-breath on Friday. . . 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, couldn't they use a power stealing spike- such as steel- then take a non-Allomancer's Investiture to use as fuel?

We don't know if it would work. It might steal something but why not nicrosil if you want innate investiture?

There are much easier methods of fueling Returned that don't require killing someone every week - Pure Dor, big perfect gemstone full of Stormlight - living on Roshar/Taldain. 

Just now, Treamayne said:

And without making anybody Drab. 

Not really. Investiture, like energy, can't be created, so when you charge White Sand, it's the "leakage" of investiture that charges it. You would likely need a Breath worth of investiture to keep yourself alive, so you would need to lose a Breath, or make all your Breaths a bit weaker, to charge the Sand. Either way you're losing investiture and you will run out of Breaths to Awaken.

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Though, that brings up a different thought - if a stored attribute is investiture, could a Returned with H-Feruchemy store attibutes to consume weekly?

I believe so. Nightblood can feed off a metalmind, Returned likely can as well (if there aren't any limitations unknown to us yet).

Spoiler

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive.

To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture.

Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

Celestial_Blu3

How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019)

 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

And without making anybody Drab. 

Not really. Investiture, like energy, can't be created, so when you charge White Sand, it's the "leakage" of investiture that charges it. You would likely need a Breath worth of investiture to keep yourself alive, so you would need to lose a Breath, or make all your Breaths a bit weaker, to charge the Sand. Either way you're losing investiture and you will run out of Breaths to Awaken.

My point was it doesn't have to be your own Awakening (or other Kinetic Investiture). Just sticking to CotGs, go stand in line for a Session and enough random people will probably be doing something close enough to have recharged your sand. . . The point was the sand can be charged without a chold becoming drab to give you their breath. 

 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

My point was it doesn't have to be your own Awakening (or other Kinetic Investiture). Just sticking to CotGs, go stand in line for a Session and enough random people will probably be doing something close enough to have recharged your sand. . . The point was the sand can be charged without a chold becoming drab to give you their breath. 

Well, yes, if you can charge the sand with other people's investiture, then yes. But I'm nitpicking only about when you have no other people and only your Awakening - it's an unreliable method. It's good when Coinshoters are pushing above your head, bad when they aren't.

Overall I agree, I would recommend Returned to carry a bag of White Sand with him, but I would warn him not to rely on it too much.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Well, yes, if you can charge the sand with other people's investiture, then yes. But I'm nitpicking only about when you have no other people and only your Awakening - it's an unreliable method. It's good when Coinshoters are pushing above your head, bad when they aren't.

Overall I agree, I would recommend Returned to carry a bag of White Sand with him, but I would warn him not to rely on it too much.

I think trying to feed a Divine Breath with White Sand is a lot like trying to run a pottery kiln with body heat.  White sand is charged by the ambient waste Investiture around other effects, it's got to be the lowest density storage we've seen by orders of magnitude. 

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think trying to feed a Divine Breath with White Sand is a lot like trying to run a pottery kiln with body heat.  White sand is charged by the ambient waste Investiture around other effects, it's got to be the lowest density storage we've seen by orders of magnitude. 

Yes, I agree.

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Seems inefficient. Instead of making one Drab per week, make one corpse per week just to die of having too many spikes.

I didn't catch that part before. I think that the Returned could just place the spike in a non-lethal location- such as an earring-  feed on the Investiture held within, then remove the drained spike. That way they wouldn't be needing to add another new spike to the total in their body at once.

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, the Allomancy would still be tied to Preservation, so I think it would be difficult to power it with breath or something. Though, that brings up a different thought - if a stored attribute is investiture, could a Returned with H-Feruchemy store attibutes to consume weekly? Oh, I'll store 25% of my weight each day and consume-it-as-breath on Friday. . . 

Yup, that might work. Brass would probably be even easier, as you could just sit in a fire and gather Investiture in a quicker method that way (Bendalloy might also be pretty easy).

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

We don't know if it would work.

It worked for the Set's experiments, did it not? The Returned doesn't necessarily need a power to be stolen, just the extra Investiture that could have become a power to feed on.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

It might steal something but why not nicrosil if you want innate investiture?

Because Hemalurgic nicrosil could be taking a human attribute (though this could be wrong, I suppose) instead of a power, which would cause major unwanted alterations to the bearer of the spike.

Taking non-powered Investiture from a human Spiritweb has already been confirmed to be possible and can be grafted onto a recipient's Spiritweb without turning them into a construct, hence the reason I feel that it would be a safer bet for the Returned to use a spike made of steel or pewter than nicrosil to sustain themselves.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It worked for the Set's experiments, did it not? The Returned doesn't necessarily need a power to be stolen, just the extra Investiture that could have become a power to feed on.

No, no, no, not that wouldn't work, but using a power-stealing spike, like steel, to steal not a power from somebody - we don't know what it would do, what charge it would have, if any, and how much. While there certainly are other uses for spikes, outside of what the Hemalurgic table teaches (ReLuur Blessing is pewter, which should steel Feruchemical physical powers) but that requires specific intent and correct binding place. Just grabbing a random spike and hoping it would steal something might not work.

Set was most likely using a simple nicrosil spike - it was described as silvery and nicrosil is silvery (well, tbf many metals are silvery so that's not definite). But they were stealing raw investiture and we know nicrosil is just for that. 

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Because Hemalurgic nicrosil could be taking a human attribute (though this could be wrong, I suppose) instead of a power, which would cause major unwanted alterations to the bearer of the spike.

Nicrosil steals general investiture. Every spike causes some level of alterations. Investiture isn't physical, like strength, so it might not cause anything major, and it isn't a Feruchemical attribute (powers are stored in nicrosilminds not general investiture as far as we know). And Set did give those spikes to test them, they couldn't make them give powers for long, but didn't mention any deformation - so giving yourself raw investiture should be fine.

Spoiler

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Breath is the same as Preservation's fragment, it's innate investiture, and both are stolen with nicrosil. If you want to steal a piece of investiture from somebody, you're using a nicrosil spike.

 

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Taking non-powered Investiture from a human Spiritweb has already been confirmed to be possible and can be grafted onto a recipient's Spiritweb without turning them into a construct

That's what I'm talking about, that's what general investiture is, that's what Set was doing, and that's what nicrosil spike steals. Don't try to use a random spike in hopes of stealing something, just use a nicrosil spike.

But instead of making 1 drab a week, you will be making much more worse-then-drab a week, as Nalthian Breath is the most invested innate investiture in Cosmere tha we know of. Scadrial's Preservation's fragment isn't that invested. So instead of traumatizing lots of people, wounding them and ruining their lives, just use Breaths if you don't want to steal any power to feed on. 

 

Edit: That was my 3333rd post - nice number!  

Edited October 6, 2023 by alder24

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, no, no, not that wouldn't work, but using a power-stealing spike, like steel, to steal not a power from somebody - we don't know what it would do, what charge it would have, if any, and how much. While there certainly are other uses for spikes, outside of what the Hemalurgic table teaches (ReLuur Blessing is pewter, which should steel Feruchemical physical powers) but that requires specific intent and correct binding place. Just grabbing a random spike and hoping it would steal something might not work.

Set was most likely using a simple nicrosil spike - it was described as silvery and nicrosil is silvery (well, tbf many metals are silvery so that's not definite). But they were stealing raw investiture and we know nicrosil is just for that. 

Breath is the same as Preservation's fragment, it's innate investiture, and both are stolen with nicrosil. If you want to steal a piece of investiture from somebody, you're using a nicrosil spike.

That's what I'm talking about, that's what general investiture is, that's what Set was doing, and that's what nicrosil spike steals. Don't try to use a random spike in hopes of stealing something, just use a nicrosil spike.

Interesting. I had assumed that the spikes the Set were using were Keyed (would that be the correct term here?) to Allomantic or possibly Feruchemical powers (actually, I had originally thought them Trellium spikes, but you convinced me otherwise on an earlier thread of mine- Practical Limitations on Supercharging Hemalurgy, though I thought you meant that the spikes were regular power-stealing ones, not nicrosil ones), but I don't see a reason they couldn't be nicrosil spikes.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nicrosil steals general investiture. Every spike causes some level of alterations. Investiture isn't physical, like strength, so it might not cause anything major, and it isn't a Feruchemical attribute (powers are stored in nicrosilminds not general investiture as far as we know). And Set did give those spikes to test them, they couldn't make them give powers for long, but didn't mention any deformation - so giving yourself raw investiture should be fine.

If that turns out to be the case- that non-physical attributes cause less deformation than physical ones- it could lead to some interesting things happening, such as perhaps letting Identity, Connection, and raw Investiture grafts being options for Hemalurgists that aren't fond of the idea of turning into constructs.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Edit: That was my 3333rd post - nice number!  

Congratulations! 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 10/6/2023 at 4:21 AM, alder24 said:

But instead of making 1 drab a week, you will be making much more worse-then-drab a week, as Nalthian Breath is the most invested innate investiture in Cosmere tha we know of. Scadrial's Preservation's fragment isn't that invested. So instead of traumatizing lots of people, wounding them and ruining their lives, just use Breaths if you don't want to steal any power to feed on. 

Do you really think the innate investiture we see being taken in TLM is less than a single breath? I tend to think it is either the same amount or even a bit more. 

Lifesense picks up everyone in the cosmere that we know of except for drabs. Knowing that a native born Nalthian has an excess of investiture in the form of a breath and that breath gives them the spot of highest level of innate investiture as a birthright out there. But once it is lost they are drab and no longer able to be sensed. 

Scadrial is obviously less invested at the start of their life but on the sliding scale they could be sensed via lifesense meaning they have more innate investiture than a drab. Once they have been spiked with Nicrosil and left alive they are worse off than a drab. By description they are far worse off than a drab. Drabs still function and live nearly full lives. The person spiked by the Nicrosil did not seem like they were going to be living any kind of life with meaning in the future to me at least. 

All that said our only real sliding scale is lifesense and drabs. Both can be sensed before losing that innate investiture and both are alive afterwords. In both cases the Nalthian ends up with more innate investiture than the Scadrian person does after losing their investiture. 

Part of me thinks that hemalurgy could potentially be taking more than a breath is giving for the simple reason of intent. The intent of people giving away their breath is that they will continue to live and I believe some degree of investiture is going to be required for that. A tender mercy of the system is that being a drab is not so bad that people arent willing to happily give up their breath for gain or in the name of their religion (or both). Meanwhile hemalurgy has a totally different intent. The Set is actively trying to avoid killing people and they are finding workarounds to spare a tiny bit of investiture. I am sure that they are still taking a far higher % of innate investiture from a person by the mechanism of how the system works than a Nalthian is giving up willingly in a system designed to spare them and allow them to continue living life to continue the lifecycle of the planet. 

For those reasons I dont know that we can say a Nicrosil spike wouldnt hold as much as a breath. It could be the same or it could be more. Sadly we cant know without some numbers .... please Brandon give us some figures to play with!  But I am of the opinion that a Nicrosil spike would last at least the same week a single breath would be. 

On 10/5/2023 at 6:31 PM, Trusk'our said:

I didn't catch that part before. I think that the Returned could just place the spike in a non-lethal location- such as an earring-  feed on the Investiture held within, then remove the drained spike. That way they wouldn't be needing to add another new spike to the total in their body at once.

Yup, that might work. Brass would probably be even easier, as you could just sit in a fire and gather Investiture in a quicker method that way (Bendalloy might also be pretty easy).

It worked for the Set's experiments, did it not? The Returned doesn't necessarily need a power to be stolen, just the extra Investiture that could have become a power to feed on.

Because Hemalurgic nicrosil could be taking a human attribute (though this could be wrong, I suppose) instead of a power, which would cause major unwanted alterations to the bearer of the spike.

Taking non-powered Investiture from a human Spiritweb has already been confirmed to be possible and can be grafted onto a recipient's Spiritweb without turning them into a construct, hence the reason I feel that it would be a safer bet for the Returned to use a spike made of steel or pewter than nicrosil to sustain themselves.

I definitely think iron is the easiest one to use. Wax proves that storing has a plethora of benefits and he could store all day. It also adds up rediculously fast. I bet a Returned with a pewter spike containing F-iron could easily find a groove to perpetually be storing the % of their weight and consuming it with their divine breath and never really feel any different. Store a bit more and you have something to play with later on too.

There is also some whacky identity stuff going on with returned where they could potentially work a hack to have more weight to store and play with. Unless feruchemy is simply working by the percentages and not the total weight, in which case the picturing yourself as a denser heavier person to store more weight and consume it faster wouldn't work. 

Brass might be a better option if weight proves to not provide enough investiture on its own. You can only make yourself so much lighter... with brass you could use the fire trick and recharge at a bonfire as the environment seems to have more effect on it. 

As far as the placing the spike in a non-leathal location. Yes, this is my first thought on that. We see earings being viable non-leathal spikes in both eras and, in Vin's case, proves that power contained within the spike does not effect how devestating it is to remove or replace. 

To take this further and tone down away from the ruining peoples lives thing... I assume the fur/leather trade is a real thing even in the cosmere. Same thing with food sources like beef. I would even be willing to bet that cattle have innate investiture as they can be sensed with lifesense (crazy that plants have more innate investiture than drabs and being spiked is worse than being a drab). That said... some experimenting needed... 

Why not be a Returned who gets into ranching? Learn the bind point to steal bovine innate investiture. Spike the cattle before they go off to slaughter and use the earing method to syphon off investiture and feed yourself. It is probably the most inconspicuous method to date. Not saying Vasher doesnt have a good thing going on Roshar but we still dont know exactly how he is doing it. Piercing cattle could become as common place as branding them. Who knows, maybe the bind point would allow you to do both at the same time?  

[alder24]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you really think the innate investiture we see being taken in TLM is less than a single breath?

Yes. Nalthians are the most invested in terms of innate investiture, Scadrains are far less. Spiking out Preservation's fragment from 1 person will give you not only less than a Breath, but also you will lose some of it instantly because Hemalurgy is end-negative, and over time spikes decay.

Spoiler

KingSloth

Doesn't all 'extra' investiture require a cracked soul? How are Nalthians born with extra breath, if so?

Brandon Sanderson

No. The Scadrians have extra investiture too, on a lesser scale.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All that said our only real sliding scale is lifesense and drabs. Both can be sensed before losing that innate investiture and both are alive afterwords. In both cases the Nalthian ends up with more innate investiture than the Scadrian person does after losing their investiture. 

Because spikes not only steal innate investiture, but also damages the soul, steals some identity, connections, and other parts of the soul, unrelated to the intent of spiking. Giving up your Breath doesn't damage your soul. 

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

For those reasons I dont know that we can say a Nicrosil spike wouldnt hold as much as a breath.

I didn't say that. If you take innate investiture from a single Scadrian, then you will get less than a Breath. But as seen in TLM, Set's spike could hold innate investiture taken out of 20-30 people - this would be more than a single Breath. It all depends on the spike size and how many people you spiked.

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Why not be a Returned who gets into ranching? Learn the bind point to steal bovine innate investiture. Spike the cattle before they go off to slaughter and use the earing method to syphon off investiture and feed yourself. It is probably the most inconspicuous method to date. Not saying Vasher doesnt have a good thing going on Roshar but we still dont know exactly how he is doing it. Piercing cattle could become as common place as branding them. Who knows, maybe the bind point would allow you to do both at the same time?  

Don't put spikes containing an animal spirit web into yourself - you will end up like Chimeras.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes. Nalthians are the most invested in terms of innate investiture, Scadrains are far less. Spiking out Preservation's fragment from 1 person will give you not only less than a Breath, but also you will lose some of it instantly because Hemalurgy is end-negative, and over time spikes decay.

  Hide contents

KingSloth

Doesn't all 'extra' investiture require a cracked soul? How are Nalthians born with extra breath, if so?

Brandon Sanderson

No. The Scadrians have extra investiture too, on a lesser scale.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

Because spikes not only steal innate investiture, but also damages the soul, steals some identity, connections, and other parts of the soul, unrelated to the intent of spiking. Giving up your Breath doesn't damage your soul. 

I didn't say that. If you take innate investiture from a single Scadrian, then you will get less than a Breath. But as seen in TLM, Set's spike could hold innate investiture taken out of 20-30 people - this would be more than a single Breath. It all depends on the spike size and how many people you spiked.

Don't put spikes containing an animal spirit web into yourself - you will end up like Chimeras.

This WoB seems to sum up my thoughts well. We are drabs. Everyone in the cosmere is born better than we are off. Noone else in the cosmere can give away so much investiture to get to the drab state than those who are specifically born with extra innate investiture specifically. 

I agree that the spiking process is likely doing something a bit more than simply taking investiture but I disagree that it is taking less than a breaths worth as there is no way to currently measure it. Harmony thinks he sees something more with Wax and even tells Wayne he suspects Wax inhaled a bit of Lerasium. It is enough of a change for the shard to recognize. We know that returned can feed off of all types of unkeyed investiture. The spike very well could be syphoning more than just the innate investiture that is so similar to breaths to be counted as such. We just cant tell. I would call the spikes from the humans on Scadrial to be on par at least with a single breath just for the reason that we dont know. I kind of envision a single "full" nicrosil spike to be enough for the first heightening and if they can only hold 30 peoples worth then it would be more than a breath but perhaps not. 

Think about how much waste there would be if you tried to spike an awakener for their breaths and you ended up killing them for less than half of the first heightening because the spike filled up to fast? 

This also hints that other planets use that bonus investiture slightly differently than Nalthians and, while I agree they have the most, it is simply used far differently than other spots. I would say Scadrial specifically is on a sliding scale if snapping is based on the innate investiture and connection that that brings to the shard.

Spoiler

Luke Beartline

Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here.

Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that.

It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here.

This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal.

Adam

Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore.

Brandon Sanderson

No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

As for chimera... Giving human breath to awaken a squirell did not deform it or cause it to not work in any way. I believe that innate investiture is likely the same stuff in everything in the cosmere. It manifests itself differently. 

Returned have a really interesting control over identity that others in the cosmere do not. It could be that the divine breath could protect them from becoming some chimera long enough to fuel their divine breath and then remove the spike. I dont think consuming the investiture in the breath is going to leave lasting damage to a Returned's spirit web that would not be nearly immediately healed by their own identity and divine breath following it. 

This WoB talks about spiking an Aviar and Brandon doesnt really seem concerned by the chimera question. I know it wasn't directly related or relevant to the question that was being asked but I have seen most of his answers to questions combining systems and hacking them to include pertinent warnings. Perhaps there are some warnings about it not working as well but nothing about becoming a monster directly.

Spiking a slew of cattle and then quickly absorbing that investiture before removing the spike wouldnt be a thing I would want to test on myself. If you are a Returned willing to spike or turn humans to drabs in the first place what would prevent you from testing it on another person first anyway? 

Spoiler

Questioner

We’ve seen several groups throughout the cosmere that have the express purpose of collecting Investiture from the various systems. I have a fear that there is a group that is going to (either now or sometime in the future) go around collecting Investiture specifically through Hemalurgy.

Brandon Sanderson

Which is theoretically possible and horrifying to consider.

Questioner

So my question along those lines was: what happens when you use a Hemalurgic spike on an Aviar?

Brandon Sanderson

You are a very mean person. Basically, an Aviar’s got a mini-bond, so it’s gonna work in a similar way to what would happen if you were trying to do it to a Knight Radiant, which I’ve talked about in the past. Which means it is a less effective way to try to steal something with Hemalurgy, because once you’ve got two individuals involved in it… The Aviar, obviously, isn’t exactly the same. But it’s going to work, but it may not last, I guess is the answer I would give you on that.

Questioner

If that Aviar is already bonded to a person, how does that spiking affect the person they are bonded to?

Brandon Sanderson

That bond will last, but how long? Who knows. Basically, you’re gonna fool the system into thinking you’re the Aviar if you have done that. So the system is going to assume that’s what you are.  They’re gonna see you as the bird if you put the spike into yourself. But, because there are multiple individuals, things like this, and you’ve got the whole thing with the Aviar and their symbiosis, and things like that. It is not gonna work nearly as well as stealing something from, say, a Feruchemist or an Allomancer.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[Trusk'our]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This WoB seems to sum up my thoughts well. We are drabs. Everyone in the cosmere is born better than we are off. Noone else in the cosmere can give away so much investiture to get to the drab state than those who are specifically born with extra innate investiture specifically. 

I think that we're actually more comparable to non-Shardworld humans that have no Innate Investiture but also aren't quite as bad as Drabs.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e182

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

 

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We are drabs. Everyone in the cosmere is born better than we are off.

We are not.

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Noone else in the cosmere can give away so much investiture to get to the drab state than those who are specifically born with extra innate investiture specifically. 

Nobody except Nalthians can give up their innate investiture. Period. We've never seen anyone else be able to control their innate investiture like Nalthians can. Everyone in Cosmere is born with innate investiture, but the amount of it differs depending on a few factors, like Shardic presence or local invested art.

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I agree that the spiking process is likely doing something a bit more than simply taking investiture but I disagree that it is taking less than a breaths worth as there is no way to currently measure it.

I've given you a WoB which said that Scadrian's innate investiture is worth less than a Breath, so a spike will take less than a Breath, and lose parts of it because of the decay. That's it. 

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Think about how much waste there would be if you tried to spike an awakener for their breaths and you ended up killing them for less than half of the first heightening because the spike filled up to fast? 

Yeah, not everything has to be so advantageous. Spiking Breahts out might be just a bad idea (it is, they will decay) - better torture someone and force him to give you those Breaths. Also bigger spike can hold more charge.

20 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for chimera... Giving human breath to awaken a squirell did not deform it or cause it to not work in any way. I believe that innate investiture is likely the same stuff in everything in the cosmere. It manifests itself differently. 

Because that's Awakening a dead corpse, replacing its lost spirit web with a Breath given to it. You can't Awaken something alive - Hemalurgy is doing hotwiring a piece of soul into your soul, those souls might not be very compatible. 

23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I dont think consuming the investiture in the breath is going to leave lasting damage to a Returned's spirit web that would not be nearly immediately healed by their own identity and divine breath following it. 

Returned don't heal themself. A damage done once to their body and their spirit web will remain no matter their perception. They can only change their appearance. 

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that we're actually more comparable to non-Shardworld humans that have no Innate Investiture but also aren't quite as bad as Drabs.

Everyone in Cosmere has innate investiture - it's in the WoB you quoted - Drabs have none.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

14 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that we're actually more comparable to non-Shardworld humans that have no Innate Investiture but also aren't quite as bad as Drabs.

 

2016 vs 2021 

Spoiler

Luke Beartline

Along the lines of BioChromatic Breath being akin to a person's soul, how would a Shardblade react to someone who does not have any Breath, would it cut them like an inanimate object?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Remember, one of the things with Breath is I consider Breath to be a part of someone's soul, but it is the extra part that the Cosmere has that non-Cosmere doesn't have. I don't know how far I want to lean into this, but there is definitely a part of me that thinks that Drabs, people who have given up their breath on Nalthis, are just like people from our world. That's what they are, that if we went to the Cosmere we would all be Drabs. Even on planets that aren't Nalthis, where you can't take part of that and give it away and things like that, people are invested. They are invested generally more than here.

Why do I do this? There's a couple reasons. One, it's really convenient for some narrative reasons. A lot of books I'm writing are these kind of action-adventure stories, and can human beings actually take the punishment that is delivered, let's say to Adolin in the end of Oathbringer? *noncommital negative sounds* He doesn't come off well from that, but could a human being really take that? I go back and forth. Humans are capable of some pretty incredible feats, particularly with adrenaline driving them, but my kind of blanket answer is everyone in the Cosmere has got a bit more Investiture; everyone's got something like Breath. Nalthians have something kind of extra special because they can use it in different ways, but everybody's got something like that.

It's leading to the fact that for instance, I highlighted this in the books, this part is canon: There are things about Rosharans that make it so that a lot of diseases have trouble getting a foothold. You do not have the bubonic plague on Roshar. You could maybe say this is because they are not living in close enough proximity to mammals for diseases to hop species as happens on our planet, which is a pretty valid point. Things that affect a horse or a cow (a lot of different diseases from cows come to us), things that affect a cow are much more likely to be able to affect a human than something that affects a chull being able to affect a human. Totally valid, but I also think that there is something more going on here.

This allows me to do fantasy stories where... In Warbreaker we don't have to be worrying about the next outbreak of smallpox, which legitimately they probably would have to be worrying about. It means that, while this is kind of a trope that people, trope is the wrong term, but that people in the past did not have as bad as teeth as we assume that we do because they did not eat the levels of sugars and starches that we do. Investiture also in the Cosmere means that you're not going to... Dalinar probably would not have a full set of teeth, even without being punched in the face and stuff, if he were a human from Earth. But on Roshar he's got just a little bit extra vitality, a little bit extra something, just like everyone on the planet, that is making him a little tougher and making him a little more disease resistant and some of these things. It makes the stories more fun for me to tell and also gives us some suspension of disbelief on some of these things. You do not have to worry about smallpox outbreaks on most planets. You do have to worry about catching the curse of the Elantrian disease and being thrown into a prison city, but smallpox, not as big of a deal.

Adam

Yeah, but you don’t have to worry about that too much anymore.

Brandon Sanderson

No, but I'm saying you could have to worry about things like that. Magical diseases, totally on the board, but the big plague they're dealing with in Roshar is the common cold that got brought across by some of the members of Seventeenth Shard, and that's going to die out pretty quickly. They will get over it and their immune system is... The common cold has come over multiple times before for reasons like that, colds just from another planet. Roshar, they've got three Shards. Basically if you want something like this to happen you go to a planet that's not quite as highly Invested where they might have a few more diseases, you pick one up, you bring it, and it spreads a little bit but then it dies off. That sort of thing happens a lot in the Cosmere. You do not have to worry about during the space age that people are going to be bringing lots of diseases across planets.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

There is definately some contradiction in the two WoBs and this one saying we are drabs is the most current which is something I have been using for a lot of my headcannon since reading it. 

I am not a huge fan of this though. Vivenna makes our normal everyday existence seem terrible. That said it also makes the coolness factor of Denth's speed and the vividness of the world while holding breath that much better. 

While I am unimpressed at Vivenna's lack of wanting to live without breaths it makes total sense that her feeling sick could have been the first time she ever had to suffer allergies haha. 

It also makes me feel less bad for drabs and allows me to better understand how someone like Jewels is so capable despite being a drab.

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am not a huge fan of this though. Vivenna makes our normal everyday existence seem terrible. That said it also makes the coolness factor of Denth's speed and the vividness of the world while holding breath that much better. 

While I am unimpressed at Vivenna's lack of wanting to live without breaths it makes total sense that her feeling sick could have been the first time she ever had to suffer allergies haha. 

It's also worth noting that Vivenna had just held a large amount of Breath right before she gave it up, making for a much larger contrast to if she had never had it to begin with, just like how receiving a large amount of Breath will momentarily overwhelm someone.

Plus, Vivenna had caught a disease only present in T'Telir that her suddenly compromised immune system couldn't handle, making the experience far worse for her than it would be normally.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7329

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-One

Vivenna, Sick and Disoriented, Gets Turned Away by the Restaurant Keeper

One of the ways I decided to make Vivenna's sections here work better was by enhancing the fuzziness of her mind. By giving her this sense of numbness, I hope to indicate that something is not right with her.

It's common for someone who suddenly becomes a Drab to get sick almost immediately. For a time, her immune system was magically enhanced and warded, in a way, to keep her from becoming ill. With that removed suddenly, sickness can strike. She hasn't built up immunities to the sicknesses going around, and by becoming a Drab, her immune system suddenly works far worse than that of other people.

These things combined made her come down with something pretty nasty the very day she put away her Breath. This would have killed her, eventually, if she hadn't done something about it. She would have grown so dizzy and confused that she wouldn't have even been able to walk.

By sending men to find her, Denth saved her life.

Anyway, I feel that these scenes work much better now. We can look at Vivenna's time on the streets in the same surreal sense that she does. They happened in the past, in a strange dream state. In that way, they can seem much longer than just two chapters and a couple of weeks.

 

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It also makes me feel less bad for drabs and allows me to better understand how someone like Jewels is so capable despite being a drab.

Yeah, Drabs honestly aren't' too much worse off competence wise than people with a single Breath. That Breath does do some things, but it isn't going to make you more skilled or powerful in the vast majority of cases.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We are not.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Nobody except Nalthians can give up their innate investiture. Period. We've never seen anyone else be able to control their innate investiture like Nalthians can. Everyone in Cosmere is born with innate investiture, but the amount of it differs depending on a few factors, like Shardic presence or local invested art.

I've given you a WoB which said that Scadrian's innate investiture is worth less than a Breath, so a spike will take less than a Breath, and lose parts of it because of the decay. That's it. 

Yeah, not everything has to be so advantageous. Spiking Breahts out might be just a bad idea (it is, they will decay) - better torture someone and force him to give you those Breaths. Also bigger spike can hold more charge.

Because that's Awakening a dead corpse, replacing its lost spirit web with a Breath given to it. You can't Awaken something alive - Hemalurgy is doing hotwiring a piece of soul into your soul, those souls might not be very compatible. 

Returned don't heal themself. A damage done once to their body and their spirit web will remain no matter their perception. They can only change their appearance. 

Everyone in Cosmere has innate investiture - it's in the WoB you quoted - Drabs have none.

I am happy to hop on board with the whole "spikes ripping off and damaging the spirit web" idea to explain why the people spiked with nicrosil may look worse off than a drab. 

What is the limit to changing ones appearance?  Kaladin cant heal the scars because of identity issues. Meanwhile Returned can hide their scars but it doesnt count as healing in anyway? Maybe they retain the limp even if the leg appears to be fine? If a returned were to lose a finger could they appear to have all of their fingers? What makes that different than covering a scar?  I believe that Identity and healing in the cosmere are tied a lot closer than what we see at face value.  Which is fine. I like that Nalthians are susceptible to being injured and killed. I think the healing levels in the cosmere are beyond ludicrous. 

We are drabs if current WoBs outdate older WoBs. The one I posted states so and is 5 years more current. 

15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It's also worth noting that Vivenna had just held a large amount of Breath right before she gave it up, making for a much larger contrast to if she had never had it to begin with, just like how receiving a large amount of Breath will momentarily overwhelm someone.

Plus, Vivenna had caught a disease only present in T'Telir that her suddenly compromised immune system couldn't handle, making the experience far worse for her than it would be normally.

 

Yeah, Drabs honestly aren't' too much worse off competence wise than people with a single Breath. That Breath does do some things, but it isn't going to make you more skilled or powerful in the vast majority of cases.

This makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. T'Telir specific disease could be similar to the one that Brandon spoke about in the WoB I posted. The worldhoppers are extremely dangerous for this very reason. (Hence my walking talking bioweapon theory for Kandra tricks though that WoB convinces me it would have to be one heck of a disease to be used on most worlds.)  Nalthis may very well be the most succeptible planet for disease to strike. Depending on how dependent the society is on a drab workforce anyways. 

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am happy to hop on board with the whole "spikes ripping off and damaging the spirit web" idea to explain why the people spiked with nicrosil may look worse off than a drab. 

Yup, Hemalurgical excisions are worse than giving away Breath because Hemalurgy also takes some extra actually essential bits along for the ride.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What is the limit to changing ones appearance?  Kaladin cant heal the scars because of identity issues. Meanwhile Returned can hide their scars but it doesnt count as healing in anyway? Maybe they retain the limp even if the leg appears to be fine? If a returned were to lose a finger could they appear to have all of their fingers? What makes that different than covering a scar?  I believe that Identity and healing in the cosmere are tied a lot closer than what we see at face value.  Which is fine. I like that Nalthians are susceptible to being injured and killed. I think the healing levels in the cosmere are beyond ludicrous. 

Good questions. I'd say that a Returnd's appearance change is more bound to some sort of ideal self, where they can change their appearance based on their views of themself, but where it is too limited to make major changes, such as regrowing lost appendages or healing actual injuries.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e6808

Brandon Sanderson

Denth's Speed

Yes, Denth is inhumanly fast. He's a Returned, after all, and has all of the physical enhancements that come with that. Even when he's chosen not to manifest most of them, he's still got an edge, just like Vasher does.

How do they hide that they're Returned? Well, it comes down to mastery of their ability to change their appearance. They can't shape-shift entirely; they can just alter some things about their appearance. They can change their weight, their hair color, and things like that at will. Vasher doesn't do this often, but Denth has been known to use it as a disguise. The problem, after you do this once and someone realizes it, your nature becomes very suspect.

They have learned to suppress their divine Breath. This allows them to hide, but they must be careful never to give away all of their Breath. Denth has been a Drab before—he's not completely lying—but never for longer than a few days. And his divine Breath is always there, suppressed. So he doesn't know what it's like to be a true Drab, which is why in this chapter he says he doesn't think it changes you that much. He's never felt it.

 

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. T'Telir specific disease could be similar to the one that Brandon spoke about in the WoB I posted. The worldhoppers are extremely dangerous for this very reason. (Hence my walking talking bioweapon theory for Kandra tricks though that WoB convinces me it would have to be one heck of a disease to be used on most worlds.)  Nalthis may very well be the most succeptible planet for disease to strike. Depending on how dependent the society is on a drab workforce anyways. 

You're welcome 

And yes, Drabs in T'Telir would be far more susceptible to an outbreak of some disease due to their weakened immune systems and poor, cramped living conditions. A walking, talking Kandra pandemic-dispenser would be a truly destructive thing to unleash in T'Telir, though I think that most worlds would suffer pretty bad if the correct strain of pathogen were concocted.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am happy to hop on board with the whole "spikes ripping off and damaging the spirit web" idea to explain why the people spiked with nicrosil may look worse off than a drab. 

It's not about nicrosil spike, it's about every spike:

Spoiler

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What is the limit to changing ones appearance?  Kaladin cant heal the scars because of identity issues.

Because he isn't CS and he is using healing mechanisms.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Meanwhile Returned can hide their scars but it doesnt count as healing in anyway?

Because that's their appearance and they are CS. However even Vasher couldn't "hide" his wounds, and possibly even scars he had scars on his Vasher-body (but they weren't mentioned later, and in SA Vivenna could make/hide scars). Warbreaker:

Quote

Vasher closed his eyes. He didn’t speak, didn’t use his Breath or make a Command. Yet suddenly, he started to glow. Not as a lantern would glow, not as the sun glowed, but with an aura that made colors brighter. Vivenna started as Vasher increased in size. He opened his eyes and adjusted the wrap at his waist, making room for his growth. His chest became more firm, the muscles bulging, and the scruffy beard on his face retreated, leaving him clean- shaven.
His hair turned golden. He still bore the cuts on his body, but they seemed inconsequential. He seemed . . . divine. The God King watched with interest. He was now faced by a fellow god, a man of his own stature.

 

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This makes sense. Thanks for sharing that. T'Telir specific disease could be similar to the one that Brandon spoke about in the WoB I posted. The worldhoppers are extremely dangerous for this very reason. (Hence my walking talking bioweapon theory for Kandra tricks though that WoB convinces me it would have to be one heck of a disease to be used on most worlds.)  Nalthis may very well be the most succeptible planet for disease to strike. Depending on how dependent the society is on a drab workforce anyways. 

The WoB you posted specifically states that there are no pandemics in Cosmere specifically because people are invested and have greater immunity - Bioweapons are just far less effective in Cosmere than on Earth, and invested people will provide herd immunity for Drabs.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

@alder24 @Trusk'our

In other spaces a change physically usually means a change in ability as well. As Vasher changes he obviously gains reach and such. But does he gain strength or speed?  Does he stay proportionally strong and fast?  What about mass?  Is he heavier in Godking form? 

Sorry to derail the discussion. The dang inconsistencies between systems kills my brain. 

My biggest gripe with Antman was always how he cracked the tile floor when falling but didn't shoot through peoples bodies when hitting them... or turn into a black hole when going to sub-atomic sizes.