Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: @alder24 @Trusk'our In other spaces a change physically usually means a change in ability as well. As Vasher changes he obviously gains reach and such. But does he gain strength or speed? Does he stay proportionally strong and fast? What about mass? Is he heavier in Godking form? Spoiler I don't know, to be honest, though we do know that Returned are stronger than normal humans even when not appearing larger or more muscular, suggesting that a measure of magical enhancement (like A-pewter) is at play. I think it would be possible that a Returned's total strength stays the same even when they change form, just that it converts from a magical boost to a more directly physical one, as their level of Investiture should be the same. Although, a Returned's immunity to alcohol gets worse as they suppress their Divine Breath, so strength may be as well. Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15707 quantumshenanigans We know that Returned generally can't be inebriated, but Vasher has learned to suppress some of his outwardly Returned-ish aspects. When we see Zahel with a bottle of wine in Stormlight, is it actually having an effect on him, or is he just doing it for the vibes? Brandon Sanderson He can get a little drunk. Maybe not as much as he would want to. 13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Sorry to derail the discussion. The dang inconsistencies between systems kills my brain. Eh, it would happen anyway, and I enjoy what the conversations become 13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: My biggest gripe with Antman was always how he cracked the tile floor when falling but didn't shoot through peoples bodies when hitting them... or turn into a black hole when going to sub-atomic sizes. Yeah, his powers are cool in theory but are completely and irrevocably incompatible with physics, which always bothers me; even if you changed the distance between atoms, mass is the same. He also shouldn't be able to breath, since the oxygen molecules outside his body are now a far different size from his own. Plus, his smaller eyes' surface area would make his vision tons worse. And if he were as small as he was he'd freeze to death (smaller animals must a have a quicker metabolism or they will freeze)- or maybe because he has as much mass as a human crammed into a space the size of an ant he'd melt from the compressed heat. In any case, I'm not sure you could pull off a realistic shrinking power unless you found a way around a lot of physics. Maybe something like it could be done in the Cosmere, but lots of Realmatic and Investiture shenanigans would need to be involved.
alder24 Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: @alder24 @Trusk'our In other spaces a change physically usually means a change in ability as well. As Vasher changes he obviously gains reach and such. But does he gain strength or speed? Does he stay proportionally strong and fast? What about mass? Is he heavier in Godking form? He already IS stronger and faster in his non-Returned look. Your physical look doesn't change much of those characteristics, some yes, but the Returned state is the maximum of what they can achieve, while their suppressed state is in a bit lower range. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Denth's Speed Yes, Denth is inhumanly fast. He's a Returned, after all, and has all of the physical enhancements that come with that. Even when he's chosen not to manifest most of them, he's still got an edge, just like Vasher does. How do they hide that they're Returned? Well, it comes down to mastery of their ability to change their appearance. They can't shape-shift entirely; they can just alter some things about their appearance. They can change their weight, their hair color, and things like that at will. Vasher doesn't do this often, but Denth has been known to use it as a disguise. The problem, after you do this once and someone realizes it, your nature becomes very suspect. They have learned to suppress their divine Breath. This allows them to hide, but they must be careful never to give away all of their Breath. Denth has been a Drab before—he's not completely lying—but never for longer than a few days. And his divine Breath is always there, suppressed. So he doesn't know what it's like to be a true Drab, which is why in this chapter he says he doesn't think it changes you that much. He's never felt it. Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010) 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: My biggest gripe with Antman was always how he cracked the tile floor when falling but didn't shoot through peoples bodies when hitting them... or turn into a black hole when going to sub-atomic sizes. That's your biggest problem with Antman? Really? Mine is the whole idea of it. 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: Maybe something like it could be done in the Cosmere, but lots of Realmatic and Investiture shenanigans would need to be involved. It should be possible, you need to maintain the Cognitive aspect and most of the Spiritual, while reshaping the body to a different form (not size) - something like we saw in Tress but give them a human tiny body with all necessary changes needed for them to survive, or some form of healing. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 23 minutes ago, alder24 said: It should be possible, you need to maintain the Cognitive aspect and most of the Spiritual, while reshaping the body to a different form (not size) - something like we saw in Tress but give them a human tiny body with all necessary changes needed for them to survive, or some form of healing. Exactly what I was thinking.
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 I have an idea, though it depends on one question. If you put a non-implanted charged Hemalurgic Spike next to Black Sand, would it become White? I've been thinking about Hemalurgic Decay and how exactly it functions. Once a Spike is charged and is not implanted, it begins to 'leak' Investiture, the only ways to prevent the leakage would be to put it into flesh or within an aluminum box. Which prevents the leakage. So could the Investiture that leaks from a Spike act like Stormlight? Could it be placed within a Polestone? Which a Returned with the right knowledge could use as a substitute for Breath/Stormlight. Then they could just use animals for any kind of attribute instead without worrying about putting the Spikes within themselves. Does this make sense? It makes some sense to me but I don't think there's any confirmation on the exact specifications of what happens to Investiture lost by Hemalurgy.
alder24 Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said: I have an idea, though it depends on one question. If you put a non-implanted charged Hemalurgic Spike next to Black Sand, would it become White? Yes, spikes left out in the open leak investiture because of the Hemalurgic decay. Sand would be charged. 2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said: So could the Investiture that leaks from a Spike act like Stormlight? Could it be placed within a Polestone? Interesting question. The leakage is quite low in volume, there isn't much investiture leaking per second, and it probably is only a tiny moment in PR, if it just doesn't leak straight to SR. It might be possible, but the polestone would leak too, and probably faster than a spike. You won't get much investiture from it, definitely not enough for a Returned to feed on this. Spoiler Questioner Hemalurgy spikes lose power after they are taken out of a body, right? So why did Vin’s spike still give her power after being so long out of her ear? Brandon Sanderson They decay, but it's not a really fast decay. And it also kind of works like a half-life thing. Does that make sense? So you get an initial just "that's bad" but that had happened to hers long ago when she had taken it out for the first time, right? And then over time, like if that had sat out for hundreds of years you're going to end up with something like Wax's earring that's like-- it gives a bit, but it barely gives anything. But as long as you're kind of keeping it in and out you're going to be a lot better off. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Before I went too detailed on this idea, I've searched for WoBs - Hemalurgic decay outside of the body is no longer a thing, and I doubt Brandon's talking just about an aluminum box. Something more is happening here. Spoiler Argent The Lost Metal Ars Arcanum calls Hemalurgic decay a thing of the past. The term has been used to describe the loss of power in spikes outside of bodies, as well as the small amount of power that is lost at the moment a spike is created. Which one of those things no longer happens? Brandon Sanderson The first one, the decay of spikes outside of a body. They have figured out how to make that no longer a thing. Argent So it's still a thing that happens in the cosmere, they just know how to avoid that completely? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Interesting question. The leakage is quite low in volume, there isn't much investiture leaking per second, and it probably is only a tiny moment in PR, if it just doesn't leak straight to SR. It might be possible, but the polestone would leak too, and probably faster than a spike. You won't get much investiture from it, definitely not enough for a Returned to feed on this. Yeah it probably wouldn't be the most efficient way for a Returned to use Hemalurgy to survive but I still think this method has potential. I don't remember if it was said in a WOB but if you split a spike would each half leak faster? Or maybe you'd just need a lot of Spikes for more Decay per second. You'd just need enough Investiture to equal a single Breath by the end of the week so it wouldn't take too much investiture. Maybe just spike a bunch of animal's and try to absorb the decayed Investiture at the end of a week? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Before I went too detailed on this idea, I've searched for WoBs - Hemalurgic decay outside of the body is no longer a thing, and I doubt Brandon's talking just about an aluminum box. Something more is happening here. Uhhhhh... 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Brandon Sanderson The first one, the decay of spikes outside of a body. They have figured out how to make that no longer a thing. Argent So it's still a thing that happens in the cosmere, they just know how to avoid that completely? Brandon Sanderson Yes. It's still a thing. Edited October 8, 2023 by JustQuestin2004
alder24 Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 8 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Yeah it probably wouldn't be the most efficient way for a Returned to use Hemalurgy to survive but I still think this method has potential. I don't think it has any potential for survival, unless you have hundreds of fresh, leaking spikes. 8 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: I don't remember if it was said in a WOB but if you split a spike would each half leak faster? Splitting spikes decays them even more, splitting them in blood would prevent this decay: Spoiler Maru Nui What happens when you break a Hemalurgic spike or metalmind? What happens to that power? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgic power can be split among multiple spikes and reforged, but remember that the longer a spike is outside of a person, the more the power is going to decay. Things like splitting it will decay it even further. Metalminds can also be broken and still be accessed Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011) Spoiler Oversleep If a spike was covered in blood - stopping the Hemalurgic decay - and then split into smaller spikes, would there be power loss or not? Let's say the splitting took place in a bathtub full of blood, so that the spikes would be covered in blood at all times. Brandon Sanderson The split should work. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016) 9 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: You'd just need enough Investiture to equal a single Breath by the end of the week so it wouldn't take too much investiture. A single Breath holds a lot of investiture compared to other sources. Hemalurgic decay is tiny in comparison. Vin's earring still gave Vin a huge increase in A-bronze power despite it being held for years outside of her body and not in proper conditions preventing decay. You can't feed Returned, who requires at least a few Hemalurgic charges worth of investiture, with just a tiny bit of Hemalurgic decay. 10 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Uhhhhh... That's why I said something more is happening there. I don't think they've just figured out how to hold spikes in an aluminum box (per 2017 WoB they didn't try this at that time, but that's long before TLM), and more importantly that isn't any different from holding spikes in blood or flesh, like what Inquisitors were doing. If it is a simple aluminum box, then how is it "a thing of the past" when they've already done that in the past? Something different must have happened, maybe hemalurgic decay of new spikes doesn't happen, while old spikes, like Koloss or Inquisitor spikes still decay? Or maybe proper intent or spike preparation is needed? Honestly I have no idea. Spoiler swieczq Had a hemalurgic spike been encased in aluminium, would it still decay? Brandon Sanderson Nobody has tried that! (It might work.) Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't think it has any potential for survival, unless you have hundreds of fresh, leaking spikes. We can agree to disagree, you just have to find a way to make the Spikes decay faster. Splitting them would effectively double the speed of decay. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: A single Breath holds a lot of investiture compared to other sources. Really? That's news to me. Could you give examples? 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: Hemalurgic decay is tiny in comparison. Vin's earring still gave Vin a huge increase in A-bronze power despite it being held for years outside of her body and not in proper conditions preventing decay. You can't feed Returned, who requires at least a few Hemalurgic charges worth of investiture, with just a tiny bit of Hemalurgic decay. Honestly I'm under the impression that Ruin may have had hand in that. Like how Preservation can fuel Allomancy it might be possible that Ruin could slow Hemalurgic Decay to a standstill, though he wouldn't want to unless he needed to, and he did need to in Vin's case. 19 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's why I said something more is happening there. I don't think they've just figured out how to hold spikes in an aluminum box (per 2017 WoB they didn't try this at that time, but that's long before TLM), and more importantly that isn't any different from holding spikes in blood or flesh, like what Inquisitors were doing. If it is a simple aluminum box, then how is it "a thing of the past" when they've already done that in the past? Something different must have happened, maybe hemalurgic decay of new spikes doesn't happen, while old spikes, like Koloss or Inquisitor spikes still decay? Or maybe proper intent or spike preparation is needed? Honestly I have no idea. Okay that makes more sense when you put it like that. When you said "It's not a thing" and the WOB directly beneath that statement said "It is a thing" it made your meaning quite unclear to say the least. But yeah you might have point, though that makes the Survivor's Treasure even more unclear. Here's a snippet from the Coppermind Spoiler The box recovered by Jak was made of pure aluminum and contained several Hemalurgic spikes suitable for making koloss. So I find it hard to believe that nobodies tried it yet, when Jak's little jaunt shows otherwise. Maybe Brandon contradicted himself, he isn't perfect and it's been years after all.
alder24 Posted October 8, 2023 Posted October 8, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: We can agree to disagree, you just have to find a way to make the Spikes decay faster. Splitting them would effectively double the speed of decay. Yes, we can agree to disagree. It would make it faster, not twice as fast. We don't know the rate of decay. 54 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Really? That's news to me. Could you give examples? In terms of innate investiture. In terms of static and kinetic investiture it's unknown. But we know Scadrial is a low investiture world, and spikes contain only a little investiture, Scadrian innate investiture is worth less than a Breath, so a single spike made out of a single being is less invested than a Breath. And if you want to spike animals, it would hold even less investiture. Spoiler Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. Brandon Sanderson It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is. Questioner Is that gonna be the answer for all of these? Brandon Sanderson Probably! Questioner How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on... Questioner Not in a person. Brandon Sanderson Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things. [...] Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) Spoiler KingSloth Doesn't all 'extra' investiture require a cracked soul? How are Nalthians born with extra breath, if so? Brandon Sanderson No. The Scadrians have extra investiture too, on a lesser scale. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015) Spoiler Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) Therefore if you steal innate investiture from one Scadrian, which is worth less than a single Breath, and part of it is lost in the process of spiking, and then tried to consume the decay from it, you won't get much investiture from this decay, as spikes can hold a significant charge for years, decades or hundreds of years, before they decay into traces amounts of investiture. This simply means that the rate of decay is really slow and you would need to make lots of lots of spikes to feed your Divine Breath with just decay. 54 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Honestly I'm under the impression that Ruin may have had hand in that. Like how Preservation can fuel Allomancy it might be possible that Ruin could slow Hemalurgic Decay to a standstill, though he wouldn't want to unless he needed to, and he did need to in Vin's case. No. It was still happening with Vin's earring, I've posted a WoB about this in a previous post, here it's again: Spoiler Questioner Hemalurgy spikes lose power after they are taken out of a body, right? So why did Vin’s spike still give her power after being so long out of her ear? Brandon Sanderson They decay, but it's not a really fast decay. And it also kind of works like a half-life thing. Does that make sense? So you get an initial just "that's bad" but that had happened to hers long ago when she had taken it out for the first time, right? And then over time, like if that had sat out for hundreds of years you're going to end up with something like Wax's earring that's like-- it gives a bit, but it barely gives anything. But as long as you're kind of keeping it in and out you're going to be a lot better off. Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) TLM Ars Arcanum talks about Shardic influence over their invested arts. If there was some influence over decay, Ruin pushing on the fabric of Scadrial would accelerate spikes decay, as he accelerated the decay of souls of living people to accept more spikes - this might explain why decay is no longer a thing. But those things weren't a conscious decision of the Shard: Quote Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony. The level of corruption of a soul that was possible in ancient days is no longer viable; if too many spikes are added, souls stop gaining powers. Marsh doesn’t think this is a conscious decision on Harmony’s part. Indeed, I think this is beyond the conscious abilities of even a Shard. Instead, I believe this is the nature of souls (read: the Invested portion of a person’s nature) and their balance with the cosmere. In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spirit- webs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable. 54 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: But yeah you might have point, though that makes the Survivor's Treasure even more unclear. Here's a snippet from the Coppermind Hide contents The box recovered by Jak was made of pure aluminum and contained several Hemalurgic spikes suitable for making koloss. So I find it hard to believe that nobodies tried it yet, when Jak's little jaunt shows otherwise. Maybe Brandon contradicted himself, he isn't perfect and it's been years after all. True, but it's Jak, take his stories with a grain of salt. Or just whoever made this box doesn't count as a normal, common Hemalurgist - Sazed or Kelsier. Edited October 8, 2023 by alder24
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