Mid-Range Game 65: Set on Infiltration

[Aeoryi she/her]

40 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

Still not an elim. It's been too long. Not counting Jabberwocky, because that was like one day long.

VC?

[The Unknown Order he/him]

16 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

VC?

Not exactly the person to ask for this. @Experience may provide one, or perhaps @Araris Valerian. Unfortunately, not too many crazy vote trackers this game.

[Aeoryi she/her]

14 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

Not exactly the person to ask for this. @Experience may provide one, or perhaps @Araris Valerian. Unfortunately, not too many crazy vote trackers this game.

Is pm spidering allowed?

[Experience he/him]

20 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Is pm spidering allowed?

What is pm spidering?

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

What is pm spidering?

creating a 1 on 1 pm with literally everyone in the game.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

54 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

VC?

Sure.

Aeoryi (10): Everyone except Aeoryi

Spoiler

Actually, Archer has 2 votes while TKN, Mat, and myself have 1 each. Which is a pretty good turnout for the first couple hours of the turn. 

 

[Experience he/him]

2 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

creating a 1 on 1 pm with literally everyone in the game.

Yep, that's allowed.

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

Sure.

Aeoryi (10): Everyone except Aeoryi

  Reveal hidden contents

Actually, Archer has 2 votes while TKN, Mat, and myself have 1 each. Which is a pretty good turnout for the first couple hours of the turn. 

 

Hm. Do you think there's gonna be vote manip this game? No. That feels too powerful. But there will be extra life roles probably. So we have to watch out for that.

 

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Yep, that's allowed.

okay!

[Araris Valerian he/him]

3 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Hm. Do you think there's gonna be vote manip this game? No. That feels too powerful. But there will be extra life roles probably. So we have to watch out for that.

 

What makes you say that vote manip is overpowered compared to extra lives? Do you mean in the hands of the village or the elims?

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 minute ago, Araris Valerian said:

What makes you say that vote manip is overpowered compared to extra lives? Do you mean in the hands of the village or the elims?

Eh, both, since at a position where there aren't many people, extra lives makes more sense, and vote manip is more powerfuller. Since, if it was... per say, 3 votes exp and 4 votes devotary, then a vote manipulater could just kill either player. But I suppose in the hands of village it is less useful. Why would you need to kill someone if you're the good guy? But elims with vote manip would basically have 2 kills a cycle, which means it could be over by C6 or C7 easily (If they play it right). 

[DeTess she/her]

@Araris Valerian @The Known Novel, why vote Archer instead of Labyrinth? Your reasoning for Archer seems to be 'because he is red', so why Archer over Labyrinth if the reasoning applies to both?

Also, TKN, what is the wincon you are claiming? Do you merely need to execute Archer?

@Archerthe reason you can't find the LG63 rules doc is because I never shared it. This was partly because the original doc actually contained another variant that I wanted to keep secret in case I ever reran it. Honestly, that variant would play nicely with what I see so far of this game, and if I still think it fits C2 I'll talk more about it, and what it could mean for this game.

 

Edit: I have more thoughts, but those will have to wait for a bit as I want a response from Araris and/or TKN first.

Edited September 23, 2023 by DeTess

[The Unknown Order he/him]

4 minutes ago, DeTess said:

@Araris Valerian @The Known Novel, why vote Archer instead of Labyrinth? Your reasoning for Archer seems to be 'because he is red', so why Archer over Labyrinth if the reasoning applies to both?

Also, TKN, what is the wincon you are claiming? Do you merely need to execute Archer?

@Archerthe reason you can't find the LG63 rules doc is because I never shared it. This was partly because the original doc actually contained another variant that I wanted to keep secret in case I ever reran it. Honestly, that variant would play nicely with what I see so far of this game, and if I still think it fits C2 I'll talk more about it, and what it could mean for this game.

 

Edit: I have more thoughts, but those will have to wait for a bit as I want a response from Araris and/or TKN first.

I voted Archer just because Araris was already voting on him and he is labeled as an Infiltrator. My wincon is to kill all Infiltrators. It kinda worries me that that isn't as obvious to you as it should be if you had that wincon.

[Aeoryi she/her]

4 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

I voted Archer just because Araris was already voting on him and he is labeled as an Infiltrator. My wincon is to kill all Infiltrators. It kinda worries me that that isn't as obvious to you as it should be if you had that wincon.

some flags here. Uh, why are you just jumping on with a poke vote? We already know that the game isn't as simple as "Kill all red names, here they are," so why are we promoting that? Okay that actually seems a little mean. But still, I agree with your point of tess not knowing the standard village (I presume if there aren't hidden roles). Okay, actually, the top part might've been a little over agressive. But I'm gonna keep it anyways. 

 

15 minutes ago, DeTess said:

@Araris Valerian @The Known Novel, why vote Archer instead of Labyrinth? Your reasoning for Archer seems to be 'because he is red', so why Archer over Labyrinth if the reasoning applies to both?

Also, TKN, what is the wincon you are claiming? Do you merely need to execute Archer?

@Archerthe reason you can't find the LG63 rules doc is because I never shared it. This was partly because the original doc actually contained another variant that I wanted to keep secret in case I ever reran it. Honestly, that variant would play nicely with what I see so far of this game, and if I still think it fits C2 I'll talk more about it, and what it could mean for this game.

 

Edit: I have more thoughts, but those will have to wait for a bit as I want a response from Araris and/or TKN first.

What wincon are you claiming?

[DeTess she/her]

1 minute ago, Aeoryi said:

What wincon are you claiming?

Kill all infiltrators.

The reason I poked TKN on that the way I did was to see whether a potential elim!tkn would backtrack when confronted with the implication the village wincon might be something different.

[The Unknown Order he/him]

5 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

some flags here. Uh, why are you just jumping on with a poke vote? We already know that the game isn't as simple as "Kill all red names, here they are," so why are we promoting that? Okay that actually seems a little mean. But still, I agree with your point of tess not knowing the standard village (I presume if there aren't hidden roles). Okay, actually, the top part might've been a little over agressive. But I'm gonna keep it anyways. 

For me, it very well could be, this is a blackout after all.

I kinda figure there's one hidden Infiltrator and maybe a Merlin. But we'll see.

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, DeTess said:

Kill all infiltrators.

The reason I poked TKN on that the way I did was to see whether a potential elim!tkn would backtrack when confronted with the implication the village wincon might be something different.

hm... good point, good point

Just now, The Known Novel said:

For me, it very well could be, this is a blackout after all.

I kinda figure there's one hidden Infiltrator and maybe a Merlin. But we'll see.

It would be anticlimactic to have this over in just 3 cycles. But maybe. What's a merlin?

[STINK he/him]

Well this is certainly something huh

[Archer he/him]

7 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Is pm spidering allowed?

Trying to figure out why you knew PM's are only 1 on 1, but didn't know you can't spider. It feels performative, as if you're asking social permission to do your scheme so people aren't frosty to you when you message them

6 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Hm. Do you think there's gonna be vote manip this game? No. That feels too powerful. But there will be extra life roles probably. So we have to watch out for that.

okay!

Is this a reaction to my post or you guessing based on general principles? 

6 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Eh, both, since at a position where there aren't many people, extra lives makes more sense, and vote manip is more powerfuller. Since, if it was... per say, 3 votes exp and 4 votes devotary, then a vote manipulater could just kill either player. But I suppose in the hands of village it is less useful. Why would you need to kill someone if you're the good guy? But elims with vote manip would basically have 2 kills a cycle, which means it could be over by C6 or C7 easily (If they play it right). 

SE meta tends to agree with Araris' stance here, if only because in your example, the village is okay with killing either of these options, and someone dies at the end of it, as expected. The elims can decide between two options the village hands them, they don't get an extra kill.

With extra lives, someone doesn't die, entirely usurping the will of the village. 

I could see extra lives being in play to extend the length of the game, but I'd guess vote manip makes it in before thugs do. 

6 hours ago, DeTess said:

@Araris Valerian @The Known Novel, 

@Archerthe reason you can't find the LG63 rules doc is because I never shared it. This was partly because the original doc actually contained another variant that I wanted to keep secret in case I ever reran it. Honestly, that variant would play nicely with what I see so far of this game, and if I still think it fits C2 I'll talk more about it, and what it could mean for this game..

Can you confirm my guesses about what was subtracted? Docs, doc powers etc? 

5 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

I kinda figure there's one hidden Infiltrator and maybe a Merlin. But we'll see.

Your theory is there's one hidden inf and two public ones? As much as I like the idea of a double bluff opening gambit from the GMs, I'd argue there's too much risk of someone saying 'hey, you made a mistake and posted my alignment,' ruining the balance. 

What's a Merlin? 

5 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

. What's a merlin?

A type of fish, I believe

[DeTess she/her]

6 minutes ago, Archer said:

Can you confirm my guesses about what was subtracted? Docs, doc powers etc? 

 

Right, so experience got the full ruleset from me, but that doesn't mean this game is in anyway similar, besides having similar fluff. I agree it seems the whole subset mechanic from that game is not present, but that's about all I can say for now.

Some more thoughts:

The alignment list is presented as the 'cycle 1' alignment list, suggesting the list might change per cycle. I am disinclined to use that list for anything until I see  what the 'cycle 2' list looks like.

If the same people are once again marked as evil on the cycle 2 list I might be inclined to execute one of the, just to check, but it wouldn't surprise me if the list is essentially random.

I don't like Araris and TKN jumping on using that list even though it makes no sense for it to be an accurate representation of alignments. Though TKN's response to my poke regarding win-con does feel more village-y. For now, going to put a vote on Araris.

[Ravenclawjedi42]

Huh. This is strange. I honestly doubt that either of the infiltrators are actually infiltrators. Perhaps the infiltrators got to pick who would be presented as such?

I’ll wait on voting for now, I’m curious to see more reactions to this.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

9 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

some flags here. Uh, why are you just jumping on with a poke vote?

So I personally am a proponent of not poke voting at all, and instead voting to kill. After all, a poke vote, especially one stated as such, has no kill pressure behind it and is thus self-defeating. We have to kill someone today (and want to even if we don't have to). And depending on how the discussion plays out, that is going to be more or less a random decision, so getting the ball rolling early can't hurt.

 

9 hours ago, DeTess said:

@Araris Valerian @The Known Novel, why vote Archer instead of Labyrinth? Your reasoning for Archer seems to be 'because he is red', so why Archer over Labyrinth if the reasoning applies to both?

Well, I only have one vote, and Archer is at the top of the player list. Hand me another vote and I'll gladly plop it onto Labyrinth. I'll also elaborate on my vote; the excuse is that Archer is red, but the reason is that it's C1 and we need to exe someone. Going to avoid diving into my personal voting theory here, but IMO that vote is still being useful.

Hmm, perhaps anytime someone dies in this game, they get to provide their guess for alignments to the remaining thread? I'm trying to think through what that list actually indicates.

[Aeoryi she/her]

15 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

So I personally am a proponent of not poke voting at all, and instead voting to kill. After all, a poke vote, especially one stated as such, has no kill pressure behind it and is thus self-defeating. We have to kill someone today (and want to even if we don't have to). And depending on how the discussion plays out, that is going to be more or less a random decision, so getting the ball rolling early can't hurt.

 

Well, I only have one vote, and Archer is at the top of the player list. Hand me another vote and I'll gladly plop it onto Labyrinth. I'll also elaborate on my vote; the excuse is that Archer is red, but the reason is that it's C1 and we need to exe someone. Going to avoid diving into my personal voting theory here, but IMO that vote is still being useful.

Hmm, perhaps anytime someone dies in this game, they get to provide their guess for alignments to the remaining thread? I'm trying to think through what that list actually indicates.

That's actually a pretty good guess. It seems like the hidden mechanic we were looking for.

3 hours ago, Archer said:

SE meta tends to agree with Araris' stance here, if only because in your example, the village is okay with killing either of these options, and someone dies at the end of it, as expected. The elims can decide between two options the village hands them, they don't get an extra kill.

With extra lives, someone doesn't die, entirely usurping the will of the village. 

I could see extra lives being in play to extend the length of the game, but I'd guess vote manip makes it in before thugs do. 

Can you confirm my guesses about what was subtracted? Docs, doc powers etc? 

Your theory is there's one hidden inf and two public ones? As much as I like the idea of a double bluff opening gambit from the GMs, I'd argue there's too much risk of someone saying 'hey, you made a mistake and posted my alignment,' ruining the balance. 

What's a Merlin? 

A type of fish, I believe

I didn't really think that vote manip has simply that little power. But because of that, we have to be more careful to not vote in the wrong places. 

But vote manipulation can be used to save elims by fellow elims and instead kill an unsuspecting villager.

I agree with your statement about extra life roles.

The known novel

[Mat he/him]

I don't mind the Archer votes, honestly, their names being red is NAI, not village indicative like some have suggested. So Araris voting there completely fits his MO. For that reason DeTess' fixation on the Archer voters seems off to me but at the same time I do understand it so /shrug

[DeTess she/her]

46 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I don't mind the Archer votes, honestly, their names being red is NAI, not village indicative like some have suggested. So Araris voting there completely fits his MO. For that reason DeTess' fixation on the Archer voters seems off to me but at the same time I do understand it so /shrug

So for the record, I am not village reading archer off of his appearance in that list. Just like you I think it is completely NAI, so people basing their votes on it looks like picking low-hanging fruit to me, which causes my suspicion.

[Mat he/him]

6 minutes ago, DeTess said:

So for the record, I am not village reading archer off of his appearance in that list. Just like you I think it is completely NAI, so people basing their votes on it looks like picking low-hanging fruit to me, which causes my suspicion.

Yeah, I didn't mean you when I said that. It's just that I also think Araris/TKN are low hanging fruit. I am aware that D1 blackout makes for much of that, though :P.