Did Kaladin Refuse the shardblade in TWOK because of the bond?

[Wayne's Pickle]

I was reading through the awesome thread 'I'm reading The Stormlight Archive for the first time' and one thing that was mentioned was how Kaladin's decision to not pick up the shardblade after he had killed the shardbearer (while he was in Amaram's army) felt a little heavy handed (i.e. It felt like Brandon was forcing Kaladin to do something his character wouldn't do). That point is completely up for debate. However when I read through the passage I had a particular thought. 

Quote

 

Kaladin stepped forward, dazed, raising his hand toward the hilt of the Blade. He hesitated just an inch away from it.

Everything felt wrong.

If he took that Blade, he'd become one of them...

~ tWoK Chapter 47

 

 

Obviously Kaladin has his own rationalizations for why he didn't want the blade. But what I'm wondering is if the feeling of wrongness might in part have been due to his growing bond with Syl. We know that at least after the first ideal (I think), a Radiant picking up a shardblade would hear the screams of the spren. But I'm wondering if there might still some sense or intuition that someone who hasn't yet sworn the first ideal would feel when holding or being near a dead blade? 

Has this ever been addressed anywhere before or is there a WoB on the subject?

Edited August 8, 2023 by Wayne's Pickle
fix quote tags

[Quantus he/him]

I think so.  

[Treamayne]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:38 PM, Wayne's Pickle said:

Obviously Kaladin has his own rationalizations for why he didn't want the blade. But what I'm wondering is if the feeling of wrongness might in part have been due to his growing bond with Syl. We know that at least after the first ideal (I think), a Radiant picking up a shardblade would hear the screams of the spren. But I'm wondering if there might still some sense or intuition that someone who hasn't yet sworn the first ideal would feel when holding or being near a dead blade? 

Has this ever been addressed anywhere before or is there a WoB on the subject?

I have not seen any WoB's addressing this, but it has certainly been discussed in a few threads here-and-there. For example:

Spoiler

Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) 

Wasn't Syl already with him when he defeated Shallan's brother (even if he didn't know it). I think his early aversion to Shards (plate and blade) were because of:

1) The burgeoning Nahel bond includes an aversion to dead shards.

2) He knew taking the blade and plate would make him a light eyes, something he disliked when he turned down the shards in Amaram's army, and couldn't bear the thought of after what Amaram did to him and his squad.

Neither of these precludes character development as he and Syl explore their bond and he says more Windrunner Oaths.

WoR Ch 52:

Spoiler

“It’s like when I first picked up a spear,” Kaladin whispered. “I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?”

“No,” Syl said, “and yes.”

“It can’t be both.”

“It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you.”

 

Also note that Connection can manifest an Effect before the Cause (because time and space do not exist in the Spiritual Realm. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections.

Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Quote

Kalanit Taub

When Jasnah picks up the bead for the palace, is that the same bead that Shallan picks up in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Kalanit Taub

Is that a coincidence or is there something else...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

You also see this when Shallan draws Ash destroying her statue (even though they have never met) and draws Yalb coming ashore after the sinking of the Wind's Pleasure. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Wayne's Pickle]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I have not seen any WoB's addressing this, but it has certainly been discussed in a few thread here-and-there. For example:

  Reveal hidden contents

Posted October 13, 2016 (edited) 

Wasn't Syl already with him when he defeated Shallan's brother (even if he didn't know it). I think his early aversion to Shards (plate and blade) were because of:

1) The burgeoning Nahel bond includes an aversion to dead shards.

2) He knew taking the blade and plate would make him a light eyes, something he disliked when he turned down the shards in Amaram's army, and couldn't bear the thought of after what Amaram did to him and his squad.

Neither of these precludes character development as he and Syl explore their bond and he says more Windrunner Oaths.

WoR Ch 52:

  Reveal hidden contents

“It’s like when I first picked up a spear,” Kaladin whispered. “I was just a child. Were you with me back then? All that time ago?”

“No,” Syl said, “and yes.”

“It can’t be both.”

“It can. I knew I needed to find you. And the winds knew you. They led me to you.”

 

Also note that Connection can manifest an Effect before the Cause (because time and space do not exist in the Spiritual Realm. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You also see this when Shallan draws Ash destroying her statue (even though they have never met) and draws Yalb coming ashore after the sinking of the Wind's Pleasure. 

 

Awesome, Thanks for the reply, This was exactly the sort of info I was looking for!

 

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Wayne's Pickle said:

I was reading through the awesome thread 'I'm reading The Stormlight Archive for the first time' and one thing that was mentioned was how Kaladin's decision to not pick up the shardblade after he had killed the shardbearer (while he was in Amaram's army) felt a little heavy handed (i.e. It felt like Brandon was forcing Kaladin to do something his character wouldn't do). That point is completely up for debate. However when I read through the passage I had a particular thought. 

 

Obviously Kaladin has his own rationalizations for why he didn't want the blade. But what I'm wondering is if the feeling of wrongness might in part have been due to his growing bond with Syl. We know that at least after the first ideal (I think), a Radiant picking up a shardblade would hear the screams of the spren. But I'm wondering if there might still some sense or intuition that someone who hasn't yet sworn the first ideal would feel when holding or being near a dead blade? 

Has this ever been addressed anywhere before or is there a WoB on the subject?

I think this is more complex than that. Yes, as @Treamayne said the bond was already there, specifically in the Spiritual Realm as it's timeless. However this is not the sole reason. This blade represents far more. It would mean he would become a lighteyes, and he already distrust them because of Roshone's actions. At this point Kaladin didn't hate lighteyes that much, as Amaram in his mind was still an ideal and fair lighteye. But I think the line "If he took that Blade, he'd become one of them" isn't about becoming a lighteyes but a Shardbearer. He just witnessed all his friends, kids half his age, people Kaladin swore to protect, being slaughtered in a blink of an eye, without Shardbearer even noticing them. This blade represents not only all of those it killed, but also the conflict between his father and him - the difference between mindless killing and protecting. Till this moment Kaladin was fighting to protect, not to kill. He held moral high ground and was true to himself. If he were to take the Shardblade, he would become what his father feared - a killer. Person who slams into enemy's ranks and slaughters hundreds of them without even looking at them, giving them no chance to survive. That's not what Kaladin wanted to be. He was too honorable and had morals preventing him from picking it up. His spiritual connection to Syl only helped him feel it more.

But yes, to answer your question, his bond with Syl was present in SR. It was always there.

[Wayne's Pickle]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

However this is not the sole reason. This blade represents far more.

I agree that it wasn't the sole reason. I guess a better way of asking my question would be if another person/ pre-Radiant who hadn't yet sworn the first ideal were to pick up (or almost pick up) a dead blade. Would they feel the same sense of wrongness due to their connection with their spren?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Wayne's Pickle said:

I agree that it wasn't the sole reason. I guess a better way of asking my question would be if another person/ pre-Radiant who hadn't yet sworn the first ideal were to pick up (or almost pick up) a dead blade. Would they feel the same sense of wrongness due to their connection with their spren?

I can only think of Venli and Dalinar. Dalinar was fine being bonded with Oathbringer and later with another Shardblade, it only started to scream when he bonded with Stormfather, not weird feelings before. Venli in OB I-3 also didn't feel anything unusual when she picked up Eshonai's blade, no feeling of wrongness, no screams, nothing like that. When she picked up the blade she heard the old Rhythm of the Lost, but she heard it a moment before too, when she discovered Eshonai was dead.

But this doesn't exclude the possibility that in that moment Kaladin reached more into SR and felt something through his future connection with Syl.

[Treamayne]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:38 PM, Wayne's Pickle said:

Has this ever been addressed anywhere before or is there a WoB on the subject?

On 8/8/2023 at 6:24 PM, Treamayne said:

Spoiler

I think his early aversion to Shards (plate and blade) were because of:

1) The burgeoning Nahel bond includes an aversion to dead shards.

2) He knew taking the blade and plate would make him a light eyes, something he disliked when he turned down the shards in Amaram's army, and couldn't bear the thought of after what Amaram did to him and his squad.

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think this is more complex than that. Yes, as @Treamayne said the bond was already there, specifically in the Spiritual Realm as it's timeless. However this is not the sole reason. This blade represents far more. It would mean he would become a lighteyes, and he already distrust them because of Roshone's actions. At this point Kaladin didn't hate lighteyes that much, as Amaram in his mind was still an ideal and fair lighteye. But I think the line "If he took that Blade, he'd become one of them" isn't about becoming a lighteyes but a Shardbearer. He just witnessed all his friends, kids half his age, people Kaladin swore to protect, being slaughtered in a blink of an eye, without Shardbearer even noticing them. This blade represents not only all of those it killed, but also the conflict between his father and him - the difference between mindless killing and protecting. Till this moment Kaladin was fighting to protect, not to kill. He held moral high ground and was true to himself. If he were to take the Shardblade, he would become what his father feared - a killer. Person who slams into enemy's ranks and slaughters hundreds of them without even looking at them, giving them no chance to survive. That's not what Kaladin wanted to be. He was too honorable and had morals preventing him from picking it up. His spiritual connection to Syl only helped him feel it more.

But yes, to answer your question, his bond with Syl was present in SR. It was always there.

Thank you for explaining my point better than I ever could have.

 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:24 PM, Treamayne said:

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average [Michael Jordan, Serena Williams, Tiger Woods, Joe Montana] is naturally gifted in what they do.

Sure Brandon, that's a low bar. Kaladin was just the MJ of spear wielding, when he started.

[Treamayne]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:38 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

Sure Brandon, that's a low bar. Kaladin was just the MJ of spear wielding, when he started.

Well, not really when he started:

• He did get beat down the first time he touched a spear in the flashbacks
• He was incomptent in the flashback leading to his witnessing Tien's death
  • Then he responded that by vowing "nobody would die because he was bad at fighting" and spent every day training all day long whenever he wasn't doing some other task (shown in the WoR "flashback")

But, yes, once he committed to learning and practicing, he was the equivilent of a high school senior first-round draft pick (or, if you prefer, High School senior that makes an Olympic team).

Edited September 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, not really when he started:

• He did get beat down the first time he touched a spear in the flashbacks
• He was incomptent in the flashback leading to his witnessing Tien's death
  • Then he responded that by vowing "nobody would die because he was bad at fighting" and spent every day training all day long whenever he wasn't doing some other task (shown in the WoR "flashback")

But, yes, once he committed to learning and practicing, he was the equivilent of a high school senior first-round draft pick (or, if you prefer, High School senion that makes an Olympic team).

I mostly meant once he got to Amaram's army. He didn't really have much experience, but he took to it like a fish to water. So much so that the others were jealous of him until he was punished, and then he became a squad leader at, 18? I feel like Kaladin started around the level of MJ's second season at the Bulls, and not freshman year at NC. This is all up for debate..mostly I was just pointing out how hilarious it is, that Brandon said that Kaladin didn't have any more talent than say, the most talented athletes on the planet. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen
correcting misspelling

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I mostly meant once he got to Amaram's army. He didn't really have much experience, but he took to it like a fish to water. So much so that the others were jealous of him until he was punished and became a squad leader at, 18? I feel like Kaladin started around the level of MJ's second season at the Bulls, and not freshman year at NC. This is all up for debate..mostly I was just pointing out how hilarious it is, that Brandon said that Kaladin didn't have any more talent than say, the most talented athletes on the planet. 

True. I think the point Brandon was trying to make, though, is that the questioner was implying Magical Assistance to his ability. Brandon was saying - no, it's not magic or proto-Radiance, he's just a really gifted fighter.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Just now, Treamayne said:

True. I think the point Brandon was trying to make, though, is that the questioner was implying Magical Assistance to his ability. Brandon was saying - no, it's not magic or proto-Radiance, he's just a really gifted fighter.

Ok, yeah..that's totally fair.

His comment struck me so forcefully as hilarious that I missed what he was saying. He seemed super-human in the way exceptionally talented athletes do..without actually being super human..until later when he was super human. 

[Letryx13]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

True. I think the point Brandon was trying to make, though, is that the questioner was implying Magical Assistance to his ability. Brandon was saying - no, it's not magic or proto-Radiance, he's just a really gifted fighter.

I wonder why he seemed to lose so much of his ability when he nearly lost Syl.  Yes, he was injured at the time, but when he tried to use a spear in the rain during the weeping, it was like he had lost all talent and connection with the spear.  And the first time he really mastered flying, he talked this exact subject over with Syl, and their conversation made it seem like part of his talent came from her.  Not completely from her, but certainly part of it.

I always thought it was mostly about Kaladin's disdain for light eyes more than anything.  Sure the bond (or potential bond) might have played some role, but a couple members of bridge 4 that later became radiants, including Teft, didn't have any problem with picking up a Blade to train with it.  I know that's different than claiming ownership of one, but still.  I think it's much more about how Kaladin didn't want to be a light eyes.  Yes, Amaram hadn't shown his true colors to Kaladin yet, but Kaladin still hated light eyes in general at the time.  I think he mentions that Amaram is the only light eyes he respects at that point. And when learning to train with Zael with a shard blade, Kaladin thinks about how he'd wanted to kill light eyes since he first picked up a spear.  

[Treamayne]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:51 AM, Letryx13 said:

I wonder why he seemed to lose so much of his ability when he nearly lost Syl.  Yes, he was injured at the time, but when he tried to use a spear in the rain during the weeping, it was like he had lost all talent and connection with the spear.  

I took this to be a manifestation of his symptoms of depression (losing Syl), coupled with the pain of his injuries. if you look back at Way of Kings (ch 27) and compare that scene in the chasm with this scene - the difference that stands out to me the most is how when he was training (or fighting) he loses himself in the motions and techniques - no thought, just motion; action and reaction. When you look at the scene in the training grounds before the climax he can;t get out of his head, can't stop thinking about everything he has lost and that has gone wrong. No Zen. 

Quote

 Sure the bond (or potential bond) might have played some role, but a couple members of bridge 4 that later became radiants, including Teft, didn't have any problem with picking up a Blade to train with it.  I know that's different than claiming ownership of one, but still.

Well, to me, the big difference here is that there is a fundamental difference between being sought by a spren and becoming a squire, who is then found by the Spren that are watching squires. The former is a direct Connection because the Spren seeks <quality> and will find it in you so the Connection ripples forward to before you have met. The later is the Squire has already found a place and is learning to embody the oaths to which they have squired, and spren are evaluating their process on learning the role - but there is no "seeking" no "direct connection" that can ripple to before the person became a squire. And note that Lopen was the first Squire, so none of the others would have felt any repulsion from a burgeoning Bond at that point in WoR. 

Quote

 I think it's much more about how Kaladin didn't want to be a light eyes.  Yes, Amaram hadn't shown his true colors to Kaladin yet, but Kaladin still hated light eyes in general at the time.  I think he mentions that Amaram is the only light eyes he respects at that point. And when learning to train with Zahel with a shard blade, Kaladin thinks about how he'd wanted to kill light eyes since he first picked up a spear.  

I'm not sure he had generalized to that extent by the time of Amaram's betrayal. At least my impression was:

• Roshone taught Kaladin that some Light Eyes are not noble
• The nameless Lord that killed Tien "taught" Kaladin that, most likely, most light eyes weren't just "not noble" but callous of their "inferiors"
• Heleran (then unknown Red Shardbearer) taught Kaladin that probably most Light Eyes were callous and, if not evil, then selfish and apathetic of others (but some can still be Noble, like Amaram)
• Then Amaram taught Kaladin that all nobility in light eyes is a pretense (and it takes meeting and knowing Dalanar to learn that there are some that can be trusted)

And all of this is really just an allegory showing how faulty it is to stereotype backward, or apply discrimination based on stereotypes. From an evolutionary standpoint, stereotyping is a part of humanity (if we didn't learn that the "red berry" might be poisonous and use that stereotype to be careful in the future, how many would have died) - but the problem now is that instead of saying "Some of X may be Y - be careful" we tend to think "You are X and therefore you must be Y - because of <stereotype>" 

Stereotypes exist, but no single person is a stereotype. Each individual should be, as Dr. King put it, "judged . . . by the content of their character."

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I wonder why he seemed to lose so much of his ability when he nearly lost Syl.  Yes, he was injured at the time, but when he tried to use a spear in the rain during the weeping, it was like he had lost all talent and connection with the spear.

Ya know...Syl made a point that all of Kaladin's spears have spren. (Which means Brandon wanted to make that point "out loud" on the page) A spear is a weapon (unlike some other weapons) that can be used explicitly in a non-lethal manner. A weapon someone who wants to protect and respect, could use. The way you wrote that makes me wonder if Kaladin has a Connection to tools he sees as tools of protection, but specifically the spear? Almost like a personal oath. I mean, he goes on and on and on in his head about the need to protect, the ways one can or can't protect, if he is right or Lirin is right..etc. And, he many many times talks about "the spear" as if it is a living thing. Perception from sentient beings changes how objects feel about themselves, we know that much to be true. Can a Radiant form Connection with someone/something other than their spren, and utilize that Connection for something greater than when it is absent?  Or is Kaladin just so intensely focused on "The Spear" that when he had broken his oaths, he was also breaking his perception of what the spear meant to him, and how it was to be used?

Or am I getting too spiritual/fanciful on this?

[Heilven he/him]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:23 PM, alder24 said:

But this doesn't exclude the possibility that in that moment Kaladin reached more into SR and felt something through his future connection with Syl

Well we know for a fact that Syl was bonded to Kaladin during this moment, seeing as she talks about him fighting in the army. We also know that they would have been bonded the whole time Syl was in the physical realm, since she says she heard/felt Kaladin reaching out to her. I am personally of the belief that they have been bonded since Kaladin was a child, and it never managed to manifest properly because of Kaladin and Syl's unique situation.

Hijacking this point to talk about something else quickly, I have seen a fair amount of discussion around when Kaladin said the first ideal, and I think that line of discussion is in the wrong direction. I obviously don't think a child would accidentally say the first ideal out loud and then forget that they did it. I don't think the ideals themselves are completely literal. The ideals are oaths, at least in most cases. But an oath to who? I think the obvious answer is to Honor, but I don't think that's true. I think Honor is the mediator, and you are making the oath with yourself. In this way, it's not important that you literally say the words, it's important that you believe and accept them. Saying them out loud is generally going to be the nail in the coffin for this, as hearing yourself say it is a good way to believe it. But just living that ideal should be sufficient enough. So I don't think Kaladin ever said the first ideal, I think he simply lived it. He was taught to live the first ideal, and so he had achieved it. It wasn't until he started to give up on it during his time as a slave that Syl started to really try and shake him out of it.

To get back on track, I don't think that moment was supposed to indicate that he felt a magical disgust towards deadblades. I don't think that has been very supported in the text, radiants don't seem to have any major problems until they touch the blades. Whether or not he could have felt something through his connection to Syl isn't very important in my opinion. He sees shardblades as disgusting the way victims of gun violence may see guns as disgusting. Hell, mild Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

It's the same thing with Wayne and guns, just that the shardblade might also change him into something he hates.

I think it's meant to represent a more grounded thing that people in real life could very well experience. Not something magical in origin

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I tool this to be a manifestation of his symptoms of depression (losing Syl), coupled with the pain of his injuries. if you look back at Way of Kings (ch 27) and compare that scene in the chasm with this scene - the difference that stands out to me the most is how when he was training (or fighting) he loses himself in the motions and techniques - no thought, just motion; action and reaction. When you look at the scene in the training grounds before the climax he can;t get out of his head, can't stop thinking about everything he has lost and that has gone wrong. No Zen. 

That's probably part of it, to be fair.  On the other hand, aside from Shallan, Kaladin is the closest we've seen a radiant actually killing their spren.  And as I posted in another topic, I suspect Testament's death had its own impact on Shallan.  Even if Syl wasn't the direct source of Kaladin's skill, it's not out of the question that her death or near death could have seriously impacted him.

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm not sure he had generalized to that extent by the time of Amaram's betrayal. At least my impression was:

• Roshone taught Kaladin that some Light Eyes are not noble
• The nameless Lord that killed Tien "taught" Kaladin that, most likely, most light eyes weren't just "not noble" but callous of their "inferiors"
• Heleran (then unknown Red Shardbearer) taught Kaladin that probably most Light Eyes were callous and, if not evil, then selfish and apathetic of others (but some can still be Noble, like Amaram)
• Then Amaram taught Kaladin that all nobility in light eyes is a pretense (and it takes meeting and knowing Dalanar to learn that there are some that can be trusted)

And all of this is really just an allegory showing how faulty it is to stereotype backward, or apply discrimination based on stereotypes. From an evolutionary standpoint, stereotyping is a part of humanity (if we didn;t learn that the "red berry" might be poisonous and use that stereotype to be careful in the future how many would have died) - but the problem now is that instad of saying "Some of X may be Y - be careful" we tend to think "You are X and therefore you must be Y - because of <stereotype>" 

Stereotypes exist, but no single person is a stereotype. Each individual should be, as Dr. King put it, "judged . . . by the content of their character."

But Kaladin's experience with Roshone, Riller, and Laurel had a lasting impact on him.  Even before Amaram's betrayal, Kaladin did not like light eyes, or want to be one.  His anger is understandable; he was disappointed that light eyes were not noble like stories made them out to be.  And I do think that he had generalized the belief to most light eyes by the time of Heleran's attack.  He seemed to treat Amaram as the exception to the rule that they were all terrible.  Perhaps he didn't think that every light eyes was a monster, but he was definitely disillusioned.  

Having said that, I agree completely with your assessment of backwards stereotypes.  It's very easy to latch onto the idea that all members of a given race, country, faith or whatever are the same.   But it's a mistake to do so.

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, to me, the big difference here is that there is a fundamental difference between being sought by a spren and becoming a squire, who is then found by the Spren that are watching squires. The former is a direct Connection because the Spren seeks <quality> and will find it in you so the Connection ripples forward to before you have met. The later is the Squire has already foudn a place and is learning to embody the oaths to which they have squired, and spren are evaluating their process on learning the role - but there is no "seeking" no "direct connection" that can ripple to before the person became a squire. And note that Lopen was the first Squire, so none of the others would have felt any repulsion from a burgeoning Bond at that point in WoR. 

I admit that one's a little tricky.  It's been mentioned several times that Syl had some connection with Kaladin long before he encountered Heleran, but the other honor spren didn't really start looking until after Syl and Kaladin proved there were still people worthy to be Wind Runners.  So I'm not really sure how to gauge that one.

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Ya know...Syl made a point that all of Kaladin's spears have spren. (Which means Brandon wanted to make that point "out loud" on the page) A spear is a weapon (unlike some other weapons) that can be used explicitly in a non-lethal manner. A weapon someone who wants to protect and respect, could use. The way you wrote that makes me wonder if Kaladin has a Connection to tools he sees as tools of protection, but specifically the spear? Almost like a personal oath. I mean, he goes on and on and on in his head about the need to protect, the ways one can or can't protect, if he is right or Lirin is right..etc. And, he many many times talks about "the spear" as if it is a living thing. Perception from sentient beings changes how objects feel about themselves, we know that much to be true. Can a Radiant form Connection with someone/something other than their spren, and utilize that Connection for something greater than when it is absent?  Or is Kaladin just so intensely focused on "The Spear" that when he had broken his oaths, he was also breaking his perception of what the spear meant to him, and how it was to be used?

Or am I getting too spiritual/fanciful on this?

Honestly I always just figured that Sanderson wanted Kaladin to be really good with the weapon that makes the most sense for someone to use when flying.  It makes sense to use the weapon with the longest reach while in the air.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Honestly I always just figured that Sanderson wanted Kaladin to be really good with the weapon that makes the most sense for someone to use when flying.  It makes sense to use the weapon with the longest reach while in the air.

But Sanderson points out in Kholinar (and Later in Urithiru) that pikes and glaives give better reach in the air. Kaladin also trains with various weapons "on screen" but never with any other weapon does he sense a connection with it like with the spear. Sanderson does have a habit of making seemingly insignificant things into really big things..but that also leads to little things seeming big when they're not. And this could be the latter.

[Wayne's Pickle]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:23 PM, alder24 said:

I can only think of Venli and Dalinar. Dalinar was fine being bonded with Oathbringer and later with another Shardblade, it only started to scream when he bonded with Stormfather, not weird feelings before. Venli in OB I-3 also didn't feel anything unusual when she picked up Eshonai's blade, no feeling of wrongness, no screams, nothing like that. When she picked up the blade she heard the old Rhythm of the Lost, but she heard it a moment before too, when she discovered Eshonai was dead.

But this doesn't exclude the possibility that in that moment Kaladin reached more into SR and felt something through his future connection with Syl.

Awesome, I had totally forgotten about those instances. Thanks for pointing those out

[Letryx13]

On 8/11/2023 at 4:32 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

But Sanderson points out in Kholinar (and Later in Urithiru) that pikes and glaives give better reach in the air. Kaladin also trains with various weapons "on screen" but never with any other weapon does he sense a connection with it like with the spear. Sanderson does have a habit of making seemingly insignificant things into really big things..but that also leads to little things seeming big when they're not. And this could be the latter.

And the most practical weapon for a footsoldier to wield under normal conditions that's similar to a pike is a spear.  True, he definitely connects the most with a spear, but that could easily be familiarity.  It's mentioned several times that he trained to extremes to improve his skill with a spear.  That much time with a specific weapon in hand would likely incline him toward that specific weapon in most circumstances.

[Stormlit Shard he/him]

On 8/11/2023 at 1:32 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

But Sanderson points out in Kholinar (and Later in Urithiru) that pikes and glaives give better reach in the air. Kaladin also trains with various weapons "on screen" but never with any other weapon does he sense a connection with it like with the spear. Sanderson does have a habit of making seemingly insignificant things into really big things..but that also leads to little things seeming big when they're not. And this could be the latter.

 

On 8/14/2023 at 2:21 PM, Letryx13 said:

And the most practical weapon for a footsoldier to wield under normal conditions that's similar to a pike is a spear.  True, he definitely connects the most with a spear, but that could easily be familiarity.  It's mentioned several times that he trained to extremes to improve his skill with a spear.  That much time with a specific weapon in hand would likely incline him toward that specific weapon in most circumstances.

I understand that it could be familiarity but although Kaladin is "acting like a lighteyes" he still has never really accepted them. I think he has a connection to the spear because it is the weapon of a darkeyes solider regardless of rank and he still is a darkeyes. If he uses any other weapon, especially a sword, it would be like accepting being a lighteyes and being that he has always used the spear, he would hardly use other weapons and would be less proficient with them, and again the sword would be especially hard for him to use regularly. 

[Letryx13]

11 hours ago, Stormlit Shard said:

I understand that it could be familiarity but although Kaladin is "acting like a lighteyes" he still has never really accepted them. I think he has a connection to the spear because it is the weapon of a darkeyes solider regardless of rank and he still is a darkeyes. If he uses any other weapon, especially a sword, it would be like accepting being a lighteyes and being that he has always used the spear, he would hardly use other weapons and would be less proficient with them, and again the sword would be especially hard for him to use regularly. 

There's definitely still some resentment toward light eyes in Kaladin.  When Dalinar first approached him about removing Kaladin from active duty, one thing Kaladin thought was not to allow some light eyes to bully him.  Having said that, it's also stated that Kaladin got over being a light eyes "ages ago" in RoW.  I suspect his time with the wall guard and seeing them acting just like his own group of soldiers and friends made the similarities real to him for the first time.  And he is willing to use Syl as a sword in some situations, when it's the better weapon choice.  

 

[Treamayne]

I think of Kaladin as more of a combat pragmatist. Sure he prefers a spear - that's what he has trained with the most. However, even back in WoK we see him using throwing knives and using a spear tip as a dagger to kill the Shardbearer. In WoR we see him use his decapitated spear as a quarter staff. Facing down Moash and Graves, he uses a boot knife when Moash broke his spear. The list goes on. . . 

[alder24]

Kaladin is a spearman, trained with a spear and instinctively knows how to fight with it. He is connected with spears spiritually. Spear is one of the most versatile weapons in history, in many cases better than a sword (swords are very overrated, they were secondary weapons, not primary). While lances or pikes would be a good choice for air to ground or air to air engagements, they are different from a spear, much longer and balanced differently - he can fight with them, but his instincts might fail him. It’s simply easier for Kaladin to fight with a spear, and he is far more dangerous with them than with a lance. I don't think Kaladin preferring the spear over other weapons has to do something with his Lighteyes vs Darkeyes conflict. He uses weapons that fit the combat situation he's in, he is changing spear for other weapons, which was most obvious in his fight with Szeth in WoR, but his default weapon is the spear.