[SPOILER] Did anyone else get really pissed when you read that Kaladin could have been a Shardbearer?

[maxal]

Because nobody would believe Kaladin willingly gave it up, Amaram thinks Kaladin would change his mind in a few days, and everyone would believe Amaram stole them. By killing Kal's men and putting him in chains, he saves his reputation and gets the Shardblade at the cost of a few darkeyed soldiers. Amaram is a huge jerk and a huge disappointment.

 

 

I still think Amaram is hiding something. He is a jerk and all, but I can't help shaking of the feeling he had other reasons to behave as he did.

 

 

It wasn't a very strong feeling, and as a general rule feelings do not tend to be very good reasons for doing things unless you're on a magical world where they do in fact signify doom. As you say, though, it was a very emotional decision to give up the Shardblade, not a logical one. Kaladin's reasons for giving up the Shardblade make sense.

 

I read it as more than that. Kal has always been uncomfortable around shardblades. We have evidence his bond started during childhood and I do think it would express itself as an uneasiness around the artifact of ancient Radiants.

 

We do see the same thing with Dalinar and Renarin.

Edited July 28, 2014 by maxal

[Moogle]

I still think Amaram is hiding something. He is a jerk and all, but I can't help shaking of the feeling he had other reasons to behave as he did.

 

Words of Radiance spoilers:

I used to believe the same thing, but urgh did WoR ruin that. Here's a small sample of quotes:

Dalinar exhaled, a hissing sound through his teeth. “Why, Amaram? Of all people, I thought that you . . . Bah!” Dalinar’s grip on the weapon tightened, knuckles white.

Amaram raised his chin, as if thrusting his neck toward the point of the Shardblade. “I did it,” Amaram said, “and I would do it again. The Voidbringers will soon return, and we must be strong enough to face them. That means practiced, accomplished Shardbearers. In sacrificing a few of my soldiers, I planned to save many more.”

“Lies!” Kaladin said, stumbling forward. “You just wanted the Blade for yourself!”

Amaram looked Kaladin in the eyes. “I am sorry for what I did to you and yours. Sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals may be accomplished.”

Kaladin felt a gathering chill, a numbness that spread from his heart outward. He’s telling the truth, he thought. He . . . honestly believes that he did the right thing.

...

No, he would not. Dalinar thought him a murderer. Amaram drew in a long, deep breath. Prices would need to be paid to see the Heralds return, but by Jezerezeh himself, the loss of Dalinar’s friendship would be a stiff one indeed. Would that mercy had not stayed his hand, all those months ago, when he could have executed that spearman.

 

Kaladin's very good at detecting lies, as he shows with Shallan. If Kaladin didn't detect Amaram lying about his reasons (accomplished Shardbearers will save more lives!), then I am quite willing to believe Amaram doesn't have any deeper motives. Any other passage where Amaram might hint at these greater motives (which is to say, when he thinks of Kaladin) has nothing that signifies anything else.

 

I find Amaram a huge disappointment because I thought he would have reasons other than being a huge jerk for what he did to Kaladin. I no longer hold any such hope.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

Words of Radiance spoilers:

I used to believe the same thing, but urgh did WoR ruin that. Here's a small sample of quotes:

 

Kaladin's very good at detecting lies, as he shows with Shallan. If Kaladin didn't detect Amaram lying about his reasons (accomplished Shardbearers will save more lives!), then I am quite willing to believe Amaram doesn't have any deeper motives. Any other passage where Amaram might hint at these greater motives (which is to say, when he thinks of Kaladin) has nothing that signifies anything else.

 

I find Amaram a huge disappointment because I thought he would have reasons other than being a huge jerk for what he did to Kaladin. I no longer hold any such hope.

 

Actually, I believe those quotes do indicate there may be other motives for Amaram to do as he did. He does speak of greater goals and he does believe he was better suited for a shardblade then Coreb, which is most certainly is. I have made that case quite often in another thread. It does not excuse his actions, not in the least, but it does give them another perspective.

[Edgedancer]

I still think Amaram is hiding something. He is a jerk and all, but I can't help shaking of the feeling he had other reasons to behave as he did.

WoR

You mean apart from wanting to cause a Desolation and possibly acting as a hero in said Desolation?

The sons of Honor might have more plans after they re-established Vorinism and who knows what Restares was thinking but I doubt any of that connects to Amaram´s reasons in the Kaladin situation.

[WeiryWriter]

In the original draft of tWoK "Kaladin" did accept the blade and his arc was about him training to be a Shardbearer and stuff.  And according to Brandon it was boring, so he changed it.  Kaladin's refusal of the Shardblade is incredibly important for his character, and if he hadn't given it up he might not have bonded Syl.  Anyway I would really read book 2, there are some reveals there that may temper your frustration.

[Swimmingly]

Another thing I don't understand is why Amaram had to make Kaladin a slave. Why couldn't he just let Kaladin give it to him, instead of killing four men and condemning Kal to this miserable life?

Because, to insert some meta-context, it made a cool story. Sure, in the end, there are character reasons: Amaram wants to preserve his sense of honour, etc. But in the end, it comes down to the characters acting according to their emotions and desires and the shape of the story more than rationality.

It also bears mentioning that the original draft of the book did have Kal taking the Shards.

It, apparently, made for a boring story.

So, sometimes, it's a good idea to simply relax and enjoy a good piece of fiction, accepting that it's hard to have an interesting conflict if nobody makes mistakes.

Edit: Oops. Ninja'd by Weiry

Edited July 28, 2014 by Swimmingly

[king of nowhere]

well, yes, refusing the sword was a dumb decision. people make them from time to time especially when strong emotions are involved, and kaladin was in a state of shock for losing his comrades. he was alsoo subconsciously infuecned by his bond with syl, that was starting to form already.

also amaram's decision of sparing him was bad, but again, amaram is not a complete monster, and could not bring himself to kill the man who saved his life.

anyway, i don't think kaladin's decision to turn down the blade made any difference. in all likelyhood, amaram would have taken it either way.

[maxal]

WoR

You mean apart from wanting to cause a Desolation and possibly acting as a hero in said Desolation?

The sons of Honor might have more plans after they re-established Vorinism and who knows what Restares was thinking but I doubt any of that connects to Amaram´s reasons in the Kaladin situation.

 

Well I am not saying he had good reasons, but that he may have had reasons. We don't know for sure what the Sons of Honor are up to. All we know if that Amaram, Galivar and Mr T were part of it (or involved with it) and it caused Galivar's death. We can guess they were up to no good, but it could be we are still missing some part of the puzzle.

[Quiver]

Isn't Brandon publishing the first story draft chapters, with Kaladin accepting the shards?

Do we have a release date on that, or was it a campaign-exclusive thing?

[maxal]

Isn't Brandon publishing the first story draft chapters, with Kaladin accepting the shards?

Do we have a release date on that, or was it a campaign-exclusive thing?

 

I have seen one chapter... the one where Renarin is actually taking the tactical lead of a battle, where Elhokar is even worst than in WoK (whiny, spoiled, arrogant and brash), where Kaladin kills his shardbearer while protecting the king and not Amaram and where Adolin is named Aredor... If was fun, but I prefer the published version

[WeiryWriter]

Five chapters are in the Altered Perceptions anthology which was indiegogo'd a while back, I don't think it has been announced whether the anthology will be available port-campaign though.  I'll tweet at Peter, he might know.

 

Edit:  Looks like it is under discussion, if it happens it will be in late September though.

Edited July 29, 2014 by WeiryWriter

[maxal]

Five chapters are in the Altered Perceptions anthology which was indiegogo'd a while back, I don't think it has been announced whether the anthology will be available port-campaign though.  I'll tweet at Peter, he might know.

 

Edit:  Looks like it is under discussion, if it happens it will be in late September though.

 

Oh cool, thanks Weiry!

[Kurkistan]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, are the downvotes really necessary? It seems rather harsh, especially for a newcomer.

 

[maxal]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, are the downvotes really necessary? It seems rather harsh, especially for a newcomer.

 

It is harsh... I think downvotes should be reserved for posters who lack respect towards other posters. Hello certainly is not the first poster to express a certain dislike of Kaladin or of any popular characters for that matter.

[Voidus]

It is harsh... I think downvotes should be reserved for posters who lack respect towards other posters. Hello certainly is not the first poster to express a certain dislike of Kaladin or of any popular characters for that matter.

I think it was more the blaming Brandon for it that set people off, however much you might hate a character that says nothing about the author, Egwene is still my most hated character and yet RJ is my favorite author. 

[Hello]

I think it was more the blaming Brandon for it that set people off, however much you might hate a character that says nothing about the author, Egwene is still my most hated character and yet RJ is my favorite author.

I blame Brandon for making me frustrated. He was the one who decided to make it so.

[king of nowhere]

i think he was downvoted for the harsh tone he used in making the criticism. I choose to have faith in humankind and believe that sanderfans would not downvote someone only for expressing negative opinions on sanderson or his work (I'm pretty naive, am I?).

However, I think 6 downvotes were too much, especially for a newcomer who was probably used to posting on other forums with lower standards. Actually, this is a surprisingly respectful community; and while it is not the only respectful community I found, in all the other cases I always got the feeling that the posts were respectful only because of harsh modding policy. This is the only place where I feel people really care about not being jerks. I don't know of any other place on the internet where a thread like the one about transgenders in the cosmere we had a few months ago could exist without degenerating into a flame war or being preemptively locked.

 

Back to topic, if I wanted to read those five chapters without buying the whole anthology, is there a chance it could happen? Like, they get posted on the site somewhere like the deleted prologue to the emperor's soul? I really don't like the idea of buying a whole book I'm not intersted in just for five chapters.

[maxal]

i think he was downvoted for the harsh tone he used in making the criticism.

 

You are probably right, but before downvoting someone, wouldn't it be more polite to just tell him why his post was aggressive and help him become a better poster?

 

Gee I just got downvoted myself in another thread and I would have preferred a thousand times if the person had taken the time to write out in words why it is it found my post offending. I would have answered. Just seeing this red flag without any explanation is actually hurtful.

[Swimmingly]

Yeah, this place spoils me compared to the Internet at large. Two minutes of Youtube comments and I'm reminded that people are generally as bad as they can get away with in their environment. I'm very glad that we've got an invested community here, though it does result in some of those (relative to the general feel of the environment here) harsh responses in spamming that red arrow.

 

In response to Hello's comment, I can't say I agree with you at all when you blame the author for the defining decision that shaped the story. It's somewhat like saying, "Why did they need to hunt the whale at all? It was pretty obviously a bad idea." in response to Moby Dick. (I know that was a fallacy of analogy, but it's still applicable)

[Voidus]

 

 

I'm very glad that we've got an invested community here

Ha. Don't know if that was intentional or not, either way, have an upvote sir!

[Necromancer]

Words of Radiance spoilers:

I used to believe the same thing, but urgh did WoR ruin that. Here's a small sample of quotes:

 

Kaladin's very good at detecting lies, as he shows with Shallan. If Kaladin didn't detect Amaram lying about his reasons (accomplished Shardbearers will save more lives!), then I am quite willing to believe Amaram doesn't have any deeper motives. Any other passage where Amaram might hint at these greater motives (which is to say, when he thinks of Kaladin) has nothing that signifies anything else.

 

I find Amaram a huge disappointment because I thought he would have reasons other than being a huge jerk for what he did to Kaladin. I no longer hold any such hope.

 

I actually believe the line, "He’s telling the truth, he thought. He . . . honestly believes that he did the right thing." was purely so that the reader would see Kaladin's plot to kill the King was just like Amaram's plot to save Roshar. I was with Kaladin in the idea that he should kill the king until that line and I realized if the book was told from Amaram's perspective, I may have been with him in the idea of giving the blade to the accomplished swordsman. Basically, that line puts things into perspective.

[maxal]

I actually believe the line, "He’s telling the truth, he thought. He . . . honestly believes that he did the right thing." was purely so that the reader would see Kaladin's plot to kill the King was just like Amaram's plot to save Roshar. I was with Kaladin in the idea that he should kill the king until that line and I realized if the book was told from Amaram's perspective, I may have been with him in the idea of giving the blade to the accomplished swordsman. Basically, that line puts things into perspective.

 

Perhaps, but I never though Kal was right to kill the king. I thought his arguments were weak at best. I have always felt Amaram had better reasons to steal the shards and kill Kal's squad then Kal had to kill Elhokar.

[Iarwainiel I]

I for one am jealous of "Hello" who is reading this now for the first time, and feeling the same things we all felt - and that we're supposed to feel.

 

The way Kaladin and the others are so downtrodden, and the ways each one finds to heal their spirits, to learn and grow and rise up to better things ... this is the genius that is Brandon Sanderson. We feel deeply about these characters, whether love (like for Kaladin) or hate (like someone I won't mention, for fear of spoilers).

 

Keep on reading, Hello! When it all starts to fit together (even as little as we know now, in book 2 of 10), you'll see it will be well worth it.

 

And welcome to the 17th Shard!!

[digitalbusker]

To answer the subject line question: Hello, as best I recall, my reaction to that reveal was sadness, not anger. I didn't know any of the spoilery reasons why Kal's decision would ultimately work out, so yeah it felt like a really stupid call*, but it didn't, to me, feel out-of-character stupid, which is what it generally takes to piss me off. I totally get you being upset, though. I've had reactions like that to stupid character decisions that made life difficult for the characters for no good reason, too. I hope you stick it out through at least WoR, though, because if you don't find a whole crop of new things to be pissed about, I think you'll like where Kaladin winds up.

 

*: It was a really stupid call. A decision doesn't retroactively become better when factors you were unaware of at the time make things work out.

[traceria]

 

*: It was a really stupid call. A decision doesn't retroactively become better when factors you were unaware of at the time make things work out.

 

I really have to go back and reread WoK, but if Syl was hanging around Kal at all as early as when he refuses the shards, there's a chance her connection to Kal (if very loose) was reinforcing his other reasons to refuse the shards (namely all the stuff regarding his men).  If prodded enough, he might have said he had a bad feeling or that some kind of instinct supported his refusal.  It's possible Syl was already having an effect on him and he would "instinctively" not want to touch a shardblade.  Someone who's read it more recently might want to chime in.  I reread WoK right before WoR came out, so didn't know about the spren/shardblade connection then and wasn't thinking about it when rereading that scene.