Can Horneaters hear the rhythms?

[The Sibling she/her]

I've never really asked a question on here before and I don't know a lot about the Cosmere that's more complicated than the basic storylines and characters, so I may be way off base, but here we go.

I thought that I remembered that Horneaters were descendents of Singers and humans, and that's why they have hard teeth or something like that, and that it was the same for Herdaziens with their fingernails. Anyways, I was wondering, if Horneaters are part Singer, can some of them hear the rhythms? The reason I thought this is because there was a part in Oathbringer where Rock hums along to a song that he can "faintly" hear. I don't remember the exact quote but I can try to find it. Could Rock be able to hear the rhythms? Is it just him or all Horneaters?

Edited July 25, 2023 by The Sibling

[The Sibling she/her]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani has proven that humans can hear Rhythms if trained.

But I thought Navani was hearing the rhythms from the gemstones she was touching. I was wondering if Rock could hear them in the back of his mind like Singers seem to. 

[Treamayne]

51 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

I've never really asked a question on here before and I don't know a lot about the Cosmere that's more complicated than the basic storylines and characters, so I may be way off base, but here we go.

I thought that I remembered that Horneaters were descendents of Singers and humans, and that's why they have hard teeth or something like that, and that it was the same for Herdaziens with their fingernails. Anyways, I was wondering, if Horneaters are part Singer, can some of them hear the rhythms? The reason I thought this is because there was a part in Oathbringer where Rock hums along to a song that he can "faintly" hear. I don't remember the exact quote but I can try to find it. Could Rock be able to hear the rhythms? Is it just him or all Horneaters?

Oathbringer Ch 37:

Spoiler

Yes, he’d once trained with a bow. But soldiers needed to eat, and nuatoma guards each did several jobs, even guards with his particular heritage and blessings.

He closed his eyes, kneading and humming his mother’s song to a beat he could almost, barely, just faintly hear.

A short time later, he heard soft footsteps crossing the bridge behind.

It is still unclear if this is a Horneater trait or specifically for the Sighted (alaii'iku).

The WoB doesn't mention the rhythms:

Spoiler

HorseCannon

I didn't realize Horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering. What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

Sorry, that's a bunch of text to say "we don't know yet."

Edit: My personal take is that it could also be a combination of Rock being Sighted - and either being a squire or a nascent Radiant bond increasing his Cognitive Connection. Since he's been SIghted since the start of the book, but only now notices he can faintly hear that rhythm.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

8 hours ago, The Sibling said:

I've never really asked a question on here before and I don't know a lot about the Cosmere that's more complicated than the basic storylines and characters, so I may be way off base, but here we go.

I thought that I remembered that Horneaters were descendents of Singers and humans, and that's why they have hard teeth or something like that, and that it was the same for Herdaziens with their fingernails. Anyways, I was wondering, if Horneaters are part Singer, can some of them hear the rhythms? The reason I thought this is because there was a part in Oathbringer where Rock hums along to a song that he can "faintly" hear. I don't remember the exact quote but I can try to find it. Could Rock be able to hear the rhythms? Is it just him or all Horneaters?

Navani has proven that humans can hear Rhythms if trained. She could hear the Rhythm of Honor and even Odium's Rhythm by herself, and even recognize Raboniel's Rhythms when she was speaking. I think Rock, as both Horneater (Singer's descendant) and Sighted, has an easier way to hear all Rhythms. He doesn't know this is possible for him, but likely with some training he would be able to do that. RoW ch 76:

Quote

She could feel them now, cool but warming to her touch. Infused gemstones always had a tempest inside. Was there a sound to them too? A vibration …
Could she hear it in there? The tone, the rhythm? With Raboniel singing, she thought she could. She matched that tone, and felt something on her arm. The gemstones reacting—or rather the Stormlight inside reacting.

RoW ch 110:

Quote

So she closed her eyes and tried to hum. She tried to find Stormlight’s tone, pure and vibrant. But she faltered. Navani couldn’t hear that tone, not right now. Not with everything falling apart, not with her life seeping away.
She found herself humming a different tone instead. The one Raboniel had always given her, with its chaotic rhythm. Yes, this close to death, Navani could only hear that. His tone. Eager to claim her.

[...]

“Honor…” Navani whispered. “Honor is not … dead. He lives inside the hearts … of his children.…”
Does he? Truly? It seemed a plea, not a challenge. Does he?
Navani searched deep. Was what she’d been doing honorable? Creating fabrials? Imprisoning spren? Could she really say that? Odium’s tone rang in her ears, though she’d stopped humming its inverse.
Then, a pure song. Rising up from within her. Orderly, powerful. Had she done harm without realizing it? Possibly. Had she made mistakes? Certainly. But she’d been trying to help. That was her journey. A journey to discover, learn, and make the world better.
Honor’s song welled up inside her, and she sang it.

 

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Navani has proven that humans can hear Rhythms if trained. She could hear the Rhythm of Honor and even Odium's Rhythm by herself, and even recognize Raboniel's Rhythms when she was speaking. I think Rock, as both Horneater (Singer's descendant) and Sighted, has an easier way to hear all Rhythms. He doesn't know this is possible for him, but likely with some training he would be able to do that. RoW ch 76:

RoW ch 110:

 

Agreed, though she was a nascent Bondsmith at that point which might have been providing a key realmic bridge that the average Human doesnt have.  Rock's Singer plus Sighted heritage could probably do the same, especially if he has a vestigial Gemheart (which has been RAFO'd, but I think could be what makes him Sighted).

Edited July 25, 2023 by Quantus

[alder24]

5 hours ago, The Sibling said:

But I thought Navani was hearing the rhythms from the gemstones she was touching. I was wondering if Rock could hear them in the back of his mind like Singers seem to. 

Read the quotes I've provided you. At first she was hearing them because of light, but in the finale she was able to hear them on her own, with no help from gems, like Singers do. 

[The Sibling she/her]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

At first she was hearing them because of light, but in the finale she was able to hear them on her own, with no help from gems, like Singers do. 

Oh okay. That makes sense, thanks!

[Firesong she/her]

I feel that that mostly came from a mixture of how much she interacted with different forms of Investiture; and due to the act she was a nascent Bondsmith at the time, which I feel would have an influence on her abilities. But your point ultimately stands, even non-Singer descended humans can hear Rhythms (although, technically, most of Roshar has some degree of Singer ancestry, Herdazians and Unkalaki, and I think Purelakers* just have the most notable heritage.)

I am actually of the opinion that the way Rosharan hair works, with all the hair colours of their parents being passed down, comes from the Singers, with the skin patterns. Probably mutated when passed to humans to apply to hair instead of skin. 

But regardless, yeah, Rock hearing them has to do with being an Unkalaki and alaii'iku. 

* Whatever human group it was that had the notable patterns on their skin. Pretty sure they were Purelakers or Marabethians.

Edit: It was Selay people in general

Edited July 27, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, Firesong said:

and due to the act she was a nascent Bondsmith at the time, which I feel would have an influence on her abilities.

I don't think she had something like that. She wasn't becoming a Bondsmith yet. The Sibling refused her proposition to bond, deeming her unworthy and they wanted to bond with Rlain, not her. I don't think there was any bond happening between Navani and the Sibling until the Sibling agreed to bond. It's not the same like with the Stormfather, who needed a bond to send visions, nor like with Syl who was attracted to Kaladin.

22 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I am actually of the opinion that the way Rosharan hair works, with all the hair colours of their parents being passed down, comes from the Singers, with the skin patterns. Probably mutated when passed to humans to apply to hair instead of skin. 

Are there people with white hair?

[Firesong she/her]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think she had something like that. She wasn't becoming a Bondsmith yet. The Sibling refused her proposition to bond, deeming her unworthy and they wanted to bond with Rlain, not her. I don't think there was any bond happening between Navani and the Sibling until the Sibling agreed to bond. It's not the same like with the Stormfather, who needed a bond to send visions, nor like with Syl who was attracted to Kaladin.

Are there people with white hair?

Just Hoid and Tanavast, afaik. We have mostly seen black, red, and blonde. Brandon has actually said that the hair of Adolin's and Shallan's kids would be tri-coloured, and that it is theoretically possible to have kids with rainbow hair. Which is just very interesting. 

Brandon has said it is also very easy to breed out colours. So, if Tanavast had kids on Roshar, they likely lost the white hair over time. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Firesong

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

* Whatever human group it was that had the notable patterns on their skin. Pretty sure they were Purelakers or Marabethians.

Edit: It was Selay people in general

Except maybe Babatharnam who:

Babath women have patterns of veins that sit shallowly beneath their skin, which some non-natives find unnerving.^[3] The Babath are human-Aimian hybrids.^[6]

Spoiler

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

[Firesong she/her]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Except maybe Babatharnam who:

Babath women have patterns of veins that sit shallowly beneath their skin, which some non-natives find unnerving.^[3] The Babath are human-Aimian hybrids.^[6]

  Reveal hidden contents

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

Yeah, though they could still have Singer ancestry, we just know they at least have some Aimian. (Also, we really need to learn more about what the heck Siah Aimians are. We have main humanoid races of humans, Sho Del, and Singers, and then randomly have the Siah Aimians being immortal shapeshifters with strange shadows due to Cognitive Realm shenanigans. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Firesong

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

Yeah, though they could still have Singer ancestry, we just know they at least have some Aimian. (Also, we really need to learn more about what the heck Siah Aimians are. We have main humanoid races of humans, Sho Del, and Singers, and then randomly have the Siah Aimians being immortal shapeshifters with strange shadows due to Cognitive Realm shenanigans. 

Can't forget the (New cosmere)
 

Spoiler

Sho-del

 

[Firesong she/her]

3 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Can't forget the (New cosmere)
 

  Hide contents

Sho-del

 

I doubt they are related to the Sho Del, Sho Del haven't shown any shapeshifting capability before. Also, yes, I mentioned them in the message, didn't forget them. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Firesong

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I doubt they are related to the Sho Del, they haven't shown any shapeshifting capability before. Also, yes, I mentioned them in the message, didn't forget them. 

opsh I am BLIND

My brain thought off Sleepless XD

Edited July 27, 2023 by Argenti