Realmatics of A-Copper

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the nature and synergy of different Invested Arts lately (mostly because I've been creating some of my own for the Combined Shard Names thread) and I'm a bit confused. A-Copper is rather cut and dry in what it does. It blocks Allomantic Pulses, and it makes the Smoker immune to Emotional Allomancy. But when you consider it, what is is doing to cause those effects? It also blocks Life sense, can presumably block a Singer from accessing the Rhythms, and can block your thoughts from detection (presumably). How does that work? I'm having trouble following what exactly it's doing, Realmatically.

Thoughts?

[Treamayne]

56 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the nature and synergy of different Invested Arts lately (mostly because I've been creating some of my own for the Combined Shard Names thread) and I'm a bit confused. A-Copper is rather cut and dry in what it does. It blocks Allomantic Pulses, and it makes the Smoker immune to Emotional Allomancy. But when you consider it, what is is doing to cause those effects? It also blocks Life sense, can presumably block a Singer from accessing the Rhythms, and can block your thoughts from detection (presumably). How does that work? I'm having trouble following what exactly it's doing, Realmatically.

Thoughts?

I always thought of it like EMI.

For example, we know that certain environmental factors (power lines, railroad tracks, competing broadcasts in the same/adjacent frequency range, etc) can cause interference for things on the electromagnetic spectrum (radio, microwaves, etc - example: Cell signal "drops" under a cluster of power lines [more common back in 3G]).

Copper, to me, is basically making an investiture cloud of EMI around the Smoker's cognitive aspect (and because it's more of an EMI field than a wall a strong enough Seeker (or other "signal") can work past the interference). The Smoker, as source, is "immune" to direct influence (which was also Jossed by Vin feeling TLR's soothings through her Copper) and the interference put off can mess with other "signals" that interact with the Cognitive Aspect (like Rhythms, Seekers, etc.). 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Quantus he/him]

It's a Cognitive metal and it operates with physical range limitations, so it's likely a Cognitive function.  I think either it dampens Investiture "signals", whatever is that these senses are detecting.  Or it is somehow affecting Perception itself in the AoE, blocking the detection of a phenomena rather than affecting the phenomena itself.  

EDIT: Those are more or less the classic brands of Invisibility: either its a "real" Hologram light-manipulation thing, or it's something that makes the people not able to see and/or notice a thing.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by Quantus

[Aeoryi she/her]

Remember thatt copper has the ability to block out bronze in a cloud, but more mysteriously the ability to block out emotional manipulation. Could copper protect you from unmade influence or shard influences? Could it block out a nahel bond for the smoker? 

I think copper will be a pretty valuable metal when the Cosmere starts to interact because of the unlimited potential for investiture interactions.

[alder24]

25 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

Could copper protect you from unmade influence or shard influences

Shards influence people through emotional Allomancy, it works in the same way, but Shardic influence is much more powerful for a simple copper cloud to stop it. We know it doesn't work as Inquisitors fall under Ruin's control, and Vin was constantly harassed by Ruin.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

Unmades are very highly invested, so they likely wouldn't be blocked by a coppercloud. But a coppercloud might weaken their influence over you, possibly it could work even better with mindless Unmades like Nergaoul or Ashertmarn.

29 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

Could it block out a nahel bond for the smoker? 

Bond is spiritual, not Cognitive. But it would affect how spren acts, whatever it means:

Spoiler

Keeper Exile

Would a Coppercloud at all affect how spren act?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

Other things a Smoker can do is to make it harder for a Singer to attune to Rhythms or hide from secretspren:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Could a Soother prevent a listener from attuning a given rhythm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. A coppercloud could, but I hadn't thought about emotional allomancy interacting. See, the rhythm isn't your emotion and doesn't determine your mood. It is a direct connection to the spiritual realm. So I guess soothing could make it harder just like it makes anything harder, in the same way that driving a car would be harder. [recording starts here] And so, for the same reasons that you can, um, it is possible that a coppercloud can play with it. Not a normal power of a coppercloud, but you’ve seen them do stuff similar.

Footnote: Question was cut off in recording, first bit reproduced from memory
Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

And then is there a connection between Aviars, copperclouds, aluminum, and the yellow spren, life sense, seeking?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah all that, there are some relationships there.

Questioner

So they all pretty much would affect each other?

Brandon Sanderson

Ummm, yes, yes.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)

 

I personally think a Coppercloud will hide you from mind hunting animals on the First of the Sun, and possibly even from Shades.

[Duxredux he/him]

In support of @Treamayne's EMI model, multiple Smokers burning in a room will make the resulting cloud harder to pierce. As for Smoking blocking emotional Allomancy, I found this tidbit:

Spoiler

Questioner

Also speaking of continutiy...

Brandon Sanderson

Uh oh. 

Questioner

This is a very very minor spoiler. It's just a statement that was made in Alloy of Law, that Smokers could...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, that was just a typo

Questioner

Is that going to change things?

Brandon Sanderson

Wait, go ahead and say it.

Questioner

Can Copperclouds shield others' emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh okay. Did we put that in Alloy of Law in the Ars Arcanum? Is that where you read it?

Questioner

I forget. I don't remember where it is.

Brandon Sanderson

I believe it’s in the Ars Arcanum, which in Alloy of Law was put together by Peter. And that’s mostly a mistake, though the thing is the Role Playing Game came to me and said “Is it feasible that this could happen?” And I said “It’s perhaps feasible, but only a very rare individual could make this work if they knew exactly what they were doing.” And so I said “Yeah, go ahead, but make it a power that someone really has to know what they’re doing to make it work.” And so they put it in, and so Peter assumed that it was canon, that anyone can do it, but that’s not what I intended.

Questioner

So would it be easier to say that somebody discovered they could do it and now they are training copperclouds to do it?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that it is viable that someone could figure it out, but it would be a very difficult thing to train, and it is not a common Coppercloud—A common Coppercloud isn’t going to be able to be doing it, and almost no Mistborn will ever be capable of doing it, they just don’t focus on that metal enough to learn it. Of course, there aren’t Mistborn around anymore. So it is a possible power, it is plausible, but it is not the standard. Perhaps I will allow it to become the standard eventually, but it’s not right now. It would be much easier to wear a tinfoil hat. (laughter) Aluminum, aluminum. Which does work.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)

The fact that this is plausible is informative. It says something about how both Copperclouds and emotional Allomancy works, though I'm not sure what that is just yet. Makes you wonder if this Smoker could disrupt other cognitive abilities.

 

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shards influence people through emotional Allomancy, it works in the same way, but Shardic influence is much more powerful for a simple copper cloud to stop it. We know it doesn't work as Inquisitors fall under Ruin's control, and Vin was constantly harassed by Ruin.

Both of those examples are for Hemalurgists. To reference Treamayne's comment on the Smoker being immune to emotional Allomancy being Jossed by Vin feeling TLR's Soothing through her Copper, this may be more a handicap imposed by a Hemalurgic spike giving another avenue into the soul, rather than on a limitation of Copper. It seems probable that Kelsier who said that it was impossible for Vin to be feeling TLR's Soothing could not be Soothed through his Copper. I think it's quite possible that a natural born Coppercloud with no cracks in their soul could block out an Unmade's influence, particularly if they do not invite in their influence by swallowing sketchy gemstones.

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

The fact that this is plausible is informative. It says something about how both Copperclouds and emotional Allomancy works, though I'm not sure what that is just yet. Makes you wonder if this Smoker could disrupt other cognitive abilities.

My guess would be something like using Connection to put the "center" of the cloud on the person to be protected emotionally.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

To reference Treamayne's comment on the Smoker being immune to emotional Allomancy being Jossed by Vin feeling TLR's Soothing through her Copper, this may be more a handicap imposed by a Hemalurgic spike giving another avenue into the soul, rather than on a limitation of Copper. It seems probable that Kelsier who said that it was impossible for Vin to be feeling TLR's Soothing could not be Soothed through his Copper.

Awesome catch. I totally failed to account for the possibility that her spike is what allowed her to feel the effects when Kell and Clubs didn't notice it through their Copper.  I quick-checked through TFE again, and once she dons it in CH 3, the only refernce I could find of her not wearing it was when it was removed when she was captured, and when TLR ripped it out of her ear. So she was likely wearing it at the time.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I think it's quite possible that a natural born Coppercloud with no cracks in their soul could block out an Unmade's influence, particularly if they do not invite in their influence by swallowing sketchy gemstones.

Isn't this impossible? If you are a Coppercloud then you have Snapped. If you have Snapped, then there are cracks for the Allomantic ability to use in expressing itself. However, if a normal Smoker can already block emotional effects, they likely have much higher resistance to non-Allomantic influences on them.

[drunkenbotanist]

Copper seems to work similarly to the suppression fabrials in RoW, only more general