Unmade and the Ten Essences

[Aeoryi she/her]

Uh, I can't quote the exact line, but glys occasionally speaks from "Within him" just like how timbre does.

 

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, Aeoliae said:

Uh, I can't quote the exact line, but glys occasionally speaks from "Within him" just like how timbre does.

 

Hmmm, yeah, I think I remember that too.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

I forgot she said that, that definitely supports my idea even more, and I already had a lot of reasons to believe that Odium and Honor would fuse (a lot I didn't mention here), but if they don't, we at least know that they are definitely gonna either lose, or it would be a pyrrhic victory where like, half the planet dies, and Odium is sealed away for 15 years. Either way, it is not gonna be a happy ending, with all those Death Rattles along with a lot of other evidence. Even the mere fact this is only the halfway point suggests it. 

I am excited for KoWaT, but also scared as it seems to be entering the part of the series where a lot of people are going to start dying and the apocalypse is close at hand. (there are literally like, 5 different death rattles about humanity losing, our chances of the protagonists winning are not good). 

Yes, I have my own theory of what would happen, similarly to yours, humanity will lose, but Taravangian will cause flooding across Roshar, destroying Kharbranth and thus breaking his word with Odium, wounding himself. Coalition will manage to restore their ground by either releasing BAM or someone Ascending to Honor at the very end of  KoWT.

If you're interested I've wrote about it here, but if you want to disscuss it, don't revive that thread please: 

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

Hope we get more on the more hidden Unmade in SA5. I don't mean BAM, we already know we are getting more on her. But like, Dai-gonarthis, Moelach, and Chemoarish. Especially the first and third, which we know nothing about. Moelach we know a little, but ultimately know close to nothing beyond "it gives death rattles". Dai-gonarthis interests me the most, in how they are likely envolved in the Scouring of Aimia. 

We will likely get more on Moelach in Book 4.5, as we know Moelach moved to the Horneater Peaks. 

There is more about Moelach, OB ch 88:

Quote

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”
“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”
“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

He's definitely related to mind and madness. All three are. We saw Re-Shephir effecting Urithiru, making everything feel wrong. Dai-Gonarthis takes pain away per one of Death Rattles (Moash might be under his influence).

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

My theory, maybe Odium sent Dai-gonarthis to Aimia to try and get the Dawnshard, as some things in the books, and a WoB, seem to imply that Dawnshards are involved in Splintering. Like, one part (forgot where, forgive me), there was a quote that implied that Odium was weaker and not as much of a threat without a Dawnshard. And in one WoB, somebody asked about a Shard with a Dawnshard and Brandon said the combination would be terrifying.  So, maybe Odium had a Dawnshard, used that to Splinter Shards. Thus he wanted it back. This likely was what brought the Scouring, and would imply that Dai-gonarthis is one of his more higher-ranking Unmade. 

Dawnshards involved in Splintering of Honor? Scouring of Aimia happened after Recreance, and Honor's death. If Odium had a Dawnshard, he would already have won. I don't think Odium ever had a Dawnshard. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Odium has a history of breaking Shards. In order to do that, it feels like he must have something that gives him an edge over the other Shards. I’m curious if Odium (Taravangian) possesses anything further than the Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

He does not have anything more than Odium. But he does have an edge.

Questioner

Like a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a Dawnshard. No, if he had a Dawnshard, that would be very, very bad.

Footnote: Later in this Q&A, Brandon emphasized that Ruin had an "edge" over Preservation due to their power imbalance.
Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

 

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

I sincerely doubt that unmade (aside from BAM) will play a big role in SA5. They seem like big powerful beings that odium just uses to smash his enemies, rather than the unmade having tactical use for their special powers. 

Unmades were tactically used during the Kholinar siege. Thrill was also used tactically in several places. Sja-Anat will likely play a big role in KoWT as she might defect from Odium. There are or were Unmades in Shinovar, where Kaladin and Szeth are going, and Unmade in Horneater's Peaks where the novel will take place. Unmades are already set up to play a big role in the close future.

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Do you think unmade are related to the voidbinding ?

Yes: 

Spoiler

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

 

11 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

I do think that one of the big reveals will be that spren can voidbind, not people. I saw it posted by someone, and I have to say, it makes sense.

It might be the case. Glys is the one managing the visions Renarin is receiving, that would make sense if Voidbinding is about spren using Surges.

[Argenti he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

It might be the case. Glys is the one managing the visions Renarin is receiving, that would make sense if Voidbinding is about spren using Surges.

I wonder what that means for Mayalaran and Adolin, with their weird backward bond.

[Marabout]

I would theorize that we have already seen many forms of Voidbinding through the actions of the Unmade.

The Thrill altering people’s emotions/personality (or at least heightening certain aspects).  
Same for the Heart of the Revels.  
Yelig-Nar altering people.  

Re-Shephir creating midnight essence… do the creations have substance or are they just a manipulation of Fear given substance by those perceiving them?  

Sja-anat altering Spren.  
 

These are all abilities that we have never really asked “How” about and there must be one explanation that covers all of these phenomenon.

So if these are all examples of Voidbinding then it would stand to reason that Voidbinding involves a temporary (potentially permanent?) manipulation of the spiritweb.  This can happen to Humans, Spren, Parshendi, or anything with a spiritweb.

Now I’ll take it a step further.  I think that the spiritweb alterations are a corrupt version of the Parshendi connection to Roshar’s rhythms and ability to make different forms.

That brings us to BAM.  An Unmade who was able to give Parshendi Voidforms.  How?  By altering the spiritweb of Roshar itself.  When BAM was captured, this somehow made the change irreversible until BAM is freed.

A little off-topic I know, sorry.

 

[Firesong she/her]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

There is more about Moelach, OB ch 88:

Unmades were tactically used during the Kholinar siege. Thrill was also used tactically in several places. Sja-Anat will likely play a big role in KoWT as she might defect from Odium. There are or were Unmades in Shinovar, where Kaladin and Szeth are going, and Unmade in Horneater's Peaks where the novel will take place. Unmades are already set up to play a big role in the close future.

 

Oh yeah, forgot about that. But I feel that doesn't really add much to our understanding. We already knew he was in the Horneater Peaks. But it is at least something. 

And yeah, Unmade have been very relevant in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, and tangentially in the other books through Death Rattles. And they are definitely gonna play a big role in 4.5 and 5. 

I do ultimately wonder what they are, as it is very heavily implied that they used to not be Unmade. With the Unmaking attempts on the Sibling, Sja-anat saying that they were unmade. And other things. Everything implies they were not simply created by Odium ex nihilo (well, we knew that already as something can't come from nothing in the cosmere, but you know what I mean), but were in some way a corrupted form of something else. And that fascinates me. 

We know they are splinters, but everything we have seen just doesn't make sense if they were normal Splinters. I feel maybe they were entities separate from Odium, which were then fused with Splinters, therefore becoming Splinters and being Unmade. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

I would theorize that we have already seen many forms of Voidbinding through the actions of the Unmade.

The Thrill altering people’s emotions/personality (or at least heightening certain aspects).  
Same for the Heart of the Revels.  
Yelig-Nar altering people.  

Re-Shephir creating midnight essence… do the creations have substance or are they just a manipulation of Fear given substance by those perceiving them?  

Sja-anat altering Spren.  
 

These are all abilities that we have never really asked “How” about and there must be one explanation that covers all of these phenomenon.

So if these are all examples of Voidbinding then it would stand to reason that Voidbinding involves a temporary (potentially permanent?) manipulation of the spiritweb.  This can happen to Humans, Spren, Parshendi, or anything with a spiritweb.

Now I’ll take it a step further.  I think that the spiritweb alterations are a corrupt version of the Parshendi connection to Roshar’s rhythms and ability to make different forms.

That brings us to BAM.  An Unmade who was able to give Parshendi Voidforms.  How?  By altering the spiritweb of Roshar itself.  When BAM was captured, this somehow made the change irreversible until BAM is freed.

A little off-topic I know, sorry.

 

Ohhh... this is a good one. 

The unmade's ability definitely has that connection to person theme, but it doesn't appear to affect the spiritweb for all of them. 

I believe it is implied that a nahel bond alters your spiritweb. So does any bond. 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I have my own theory of what would happen, similarly to yours, humanity will lose, but Taravangian will cause flooding across Roshar, destroying Kharbranth and thus breaking his word with Odium, wounding himself. Coalition will manage to restore their ground by either releasing BAM or someone Ascending to Honor at the very end of  KoWT.

If you're interested I've wrote about it here, but if you want to disscuss it, don't revive that thread please: 

There is more about Moelach, OB ch 88:

He's definitely related to mind and madness. All three are. We saw Re-Shephir effecting Urithiru, making everything feel wrong. Dai-Gonarthis takes pain away per one of Death Rattles (Moash might be under his influence).

Dawnshards involved in Splintering of Honor? Scouring of Aimia happened after Recreance, and Honor's death. If Odium had a Dawnshard, he would already have won. I don't think Odium ever had a Dawnshard. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Odium has a history of breaking Shards. In order to do that, it feels like he must have something that gives him an edge over the other Shards. I’m curious if Odium (Taravangian) possesses anything further than the Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

He does not have anything more than Odium. But he does have an edge.

Questioner

Like a Dawnshard?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a Dawnshard. No, if he had a Dawnshard, that would be very, very bad.

Footnote: Later in this Q&A, Brandon emphasized that Ruin had an "edge" over Preservation due to their power imbalance.
Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

 

Unmades were tactically used during the Kholinar siege. Thrill was also used tactically in several places. Sja-Anat will likely play a big role in KoWT as she might defect from Odium. There are or were Unmades in Shinovar, where Kaladin and Szeth are going, and Unmade in Horneater's Peaks where the novel will take place. Unmades are already set up to play a big role in the close future.

Yes: 

  Hide contents

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

  Hide contents

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

 

It might be the case. Glys is the one managing the visions Renarin is receiving, that would make sense if Voidbinding is about spren using Surges.

If the Black fisher is related to taking away pain then what did he do to aimia?

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Marabout said:

I would theorize that we have already seen many forms of Voidbinding through the actions of the Unmade.

The Thrill altering people’s emotions/personality (or at least heightening certain aspects).  
Same for the Heart of the Revels.  
Yelig-Nar altering people.  

Re-Shephir creating midnight essence… do the creations have substance or are they just a manipulation of Fear given substance by those perceiving them?  

Sja-anat altering Spren.  
 

These are all abilities that we have never really asked “How” about and there must be one explanation that covers all of these phenomenon.

Possible but that's not that different from what Stormfather, The Sibling or especially Nightwatcher can do. And we know that Voidbinding was looked in the past, but barely explored.

Spoiler

TheFoxQR (paraphrased)

Is there temporal symmetry in between the Surge-binding and void-binding charts, from the front and back covers of The Way of Kings? As in, Surgebinding is a re-emerging system of the past, vs Voidbinding being a newly emerging system that will fully exist in the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can assume that Voidbinding has not been fully explored, but that parts of it have been looked into in the past. So I wouldn't say that temporal symmetry fully holds.

General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 3, 2019)

 

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

I do ultimately wonder what they are, as it is very heavily implied that they used to not be Unmade. With the Unmaking attempts on the Sibling, Sja-anat saying that they were unmade. And other things. Everything implies they were not simply created by Odium ex nihilo (well, we knew that already as something can't come from nothing in the cosmere, but you know what I mean), but were in some way a corrupted form of something else. And that fascinates me. 

I think most likely they were Unmade from some bigger spren but not on the level of Bondsmith spren, like Cusicesh (maybe some spren like what Stormfather use to be before becoming Honor's CS), Re-Shephir might be related to Aether or an Aetherbound as she uses Midnight Essence. At least those are my guesses. Or maybe what Jezrien has said was true, they're made out of Herald's broken mind during torture. There are 9 of them and only 9 Heralds have broken. I hope we got some clues in KoWT.

1 hour ago, Aeoliae said:

If the Black fisher is related to taking away pain then what did he do to aimia?

No idea. Maybe he influenced the entire army invading Aimia to make them emotionless? Or the opposite, he influenced the defenders to make them indifferent in the face of destruction. We have no information about Scouring of Aimia, it's hard to say anything about it.

[Aeoryi she/her]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Possible but that's not that different from what Stormfather, The Sibling or especially Nightwatcher can do. And we know that Voidbinding was looked in the past, but barely explored.

  Reveal hidden contents

TheFoxQR (paraphrased)

Is there temporal symmetry in between the Surge-binding and void-binding charts, from the front and back covers of The Way of Kings? As in, Surgebinding is a re-emerging system of the past, vs Voidbinding being a newly emerging system that will fully exist in the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can assume that Voidbinding has not been fully explored, but that parts of it have been looked into in the past. So I wouldn't say that temporal symmetry fully holds.

General Reddit 2019 (Aug. 3, 2019)

 

I think most likely they were Unmade from some bigger spren but not on the level of Bondsmith spren, like Cusicesh (maybe some spren like what Stormfather use to be before becoming Honor's CS), Re-Shephir might be related to Aether or an Aetherbound as she uses Midnight Essence. At least those are my guesses. Or maybe what Jezrien has said was true, they're made out of Herald's broken mind during torture. There are 9 of them and only 9 Heralds have broken. I hope we got some clues in KoWT.

No idea. Maybe he influenced the entire army invading Aimia to make them emotionless? Or the opposite, he influenced the defenders to make them indifferent in the face of destruction. We have no information about Scouring of Aimia, it's hard to say anything about it.

We know that Aimia was targeted since it relied on the Radiants to defend it, and after the recreance it became an easy target. Maybe the Black Fisher influenced their greed? 

What do you mean, only 9 heralds have broken? And also, if the sibling was unmade, that wouldn't have been from the heralds' minds then.

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

We know that Aimia was targeted since it relied on the Radiants to defend it, and after the recreance it became an easy target. Maybe the Black Fisher influenced their greed? 

He is supposed to take away emotions, especially pain, not increase them. But because we know nothing, everything is possible.

24 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

What do you mean, only 9 heralds have broken?

9 of them had broken and allowed Fused to Return starting a Desolation. Only Taln has never broken.

25 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

And also, if the sibling was unmade, that wouldn't have been from the heralds' minds then.

Yes, that's true. Unless Odium somehow keeps Herald's "mind" and uses it when creating Unmade - they aren't made only out of Herald's mind but its a combination of a spren and Herald's mind. After all unmaking steals mind of a spren (or something like that, Sja-Anat said so), and Odium needs to replace it somehow. But that's just speculations.

[Marabout]

I don’t see a similarity between what SF or the Sibling do and what we’ve seen the Unmade do.

I did consider the Nightwatcher and how what they do is similar.  I even thought while writing it “is the Nightwatcher an Unmade?” (Dai-gonarthis?)

Because the difference I see between the Nahel bonds and Unmade spiritweb changes is that the Nahel bonds fill cracks that are already there (improving the structure or at least stabilizing it) whereas Unmade changes would require the target to give up part of themselves and then they fill that hole (in keeping with how Odium works).

The SF and Sibling don’t take away from or drastically alter spiritwebs but we’ve seen Unmade do it.  What the NW does though… very similar… plus they do it to people they haven’t bonded.

A further thought… The one-word Unmade seem to temporarily alter the web, affecting primarily emotions.  The two-word Unmade seem to physically or more substantially alter their targets.  And I think BAM can alter all that as well as bonds.

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

17 minutes ago, Marabout said:

I don’t see a similarity between what SF or the Sibling do and what we’ve seen the Unmade do.

I did consider the Nightwatcher and how what they do is similar.  I even thought while writing it “is the Nightwatcher an Unmade?” (Dai-gonarthis?)

Because the difference I see between the Nahel bonds and Unmade spiritweb changes is that the Nahel bonds fill cracks that are already there (improving the structure or at least stabilizing it) whereas Unmade changes would require the target to give up part of themselves and then they fill that hole (in keeping with how Odium works).

The SF and Sibling don’t take away from or drastically alter spiritwebs but we’ve seen Unmade do it.  What the NW does though… very similar… plus they do it to people they haven’t bonded.

A further thought… The one-word Unmade seem to temporarily alter the web, affecting primarily emotions.  The two-word Unmade seem to physically or more substantially alter their targets.  And I think BAM can alter all that as well as bonds.

 

Um dai-gonarthis? He doesn't seem to be physically manipulating anyone.

Moelach also doesn't affect emotions. He gives precognitive death messages.

 

[in Truth,watcher of tv he/him]

I figure the Unmade were the unique cultural spren of the dawnsingers, that embody some of the major concepts which are conspicuously unrepresented among the spren we know. Also, I suspect the singers essentially sold them out to Odium in exchange for the power to fight humans, which is the betrayal that prompted Leshwi to ask if the spren had forgiven them.

So, when Odium unmade them he twisted their basic concept to his Intent and purposes, and since they were important spren to the singers this made them ‘his’ people. I think the fuzzy association the Unmade have with the Heralds/Knights is through the platespren and the forms they grant the singers, and so indirectly related to the Orders but not philosophically aligned.

A few I’ve thought of:
Nergaoul: spren of love (and/or lust), which was turned into bloodlust; lifespren-mateform

B-A-M: spren of forms became the spren of forms of power; linked to the Truthwatcher platespren which I think are mandras - maybe meditationform

Sja-anat: innovator of new or custom spren maybe, became the corruptor; creationspren-artform

Ashertmarn: spren of festivities became about mindless excess; Willshaper platespren (musicspren)-resulting form (songform I would guess)

Moelach: spren of funerals or maybe ancestors; could be associated with Stoneward platespren especially if dawnsingers buried their dead or flamespren if they cremated

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Marabout said:

I don’t see a similarity between what SF or the Sibling do and what we’ve seen the Unmade do.

Stormfather has full control over Highstorms. He can send them whenever he wants, control their strength (they're always vicious when facing Kaladin) or cause winds to guide somebody in the storm. He can send visions to people he chooses and connects to, he can slow down time and take people into the realm in between. He does it all as a spren, just like Unmades. The Sibling can control all of the Tower, every fabrial within, they can sense and see through the Tower's wall and communicate with people. 

11 hours ago, Marabout said:

I did consider the Nightwatcher and how what they do is similar.  I even thought while writing it “is the Nightwatcher an Unmade?” (Dai-gonarthis?)

No, she's to Cultivation's spren.

11 hours ago, Marabout said:

Because the difference I see between the Nahel bonds and Unmade spiritweb changes is that the Nahel bonds fill cracks that are already there (improving the structure or at least stabilizing it) whereas Unmade changes would require the target to give up part of themselves and then they fill that hole (in keeping with how Odium works).

Is it? There is nothing to support this. Contraurary, Re-Shephir wanted to replace Pattern's place and bond with Shallan. To add more, in the back cover of WoR it was said that a bond with spren can widen cracks in the soul.

11 hours ago, Marabout said:

The SF and Sibling don’t take away from or drastically alter spiritwebs but we’ve seen Unmade do it.

One Unmade - Yelig-Nar consumes the soul of a person he's bonded with, Like Nightblood does. We have no other example. Thrill and Ashertmarn manipulate emotions of poeple, Moelach grants future visions (related to SR) and is possibly related to madness. Re-Shephir creates Midnight Essence, Sja-Anat enlights other spren, both do not interact with poeple on spiritual level. 

 

3 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I figure the Unmade were the unique cultural spren of the dawnsingers, that embody some of the major concepts which are conspicuously unrepresented among the spren we know. Also, I suspect the singers essentially sold them out to Odium in exchange for the power to fight humans, which is the betrayal that prompted Leshwi to ask if the spren had forgiven them.

That's a good idea. It fits and resolves the whole betrayal issue.

[Aeoryi she/her]

@Marabout from what we have come up with it appears that Dai gonthais has the ability to make others feel no emotion. The nightwatcher can use the Old Magic. If I had to guess it would be that the old magic originates from preshattering or cultivation, and that the Black Fisher gets his power from odium.