True Spren / Unmade Theory

[Hare_Mettle he/him]

Big theory about Unmade, Roshar Races, Spren and Shallan. 

 

Please, my weakest aspect of fandom is the knowledge released in WOBs. Help me and show me why I’m wrong. 

 

General Theory / Ideas: Based on the convolution and details regarding the surgebinding chart that Brandon has mentioned, plus the thematic relevance of numbers 9/10 on Roshar in regard to how Odium’s forces align with the others. And finally, culminating in a human/spren theory that informs my SHALLAN theory. Enjoy and let’s poke some holes. 

 

Part 1: Odium Unmakes True Spren 

·      The First Desolation begins and the Oathpact is made to help humanity. 

·      True Spren start forming bonds to make Knights Radiant

·      Seeing how effective this was for human forces, Odium takes action. The same way creating a Nahel Bond makes Spren more physical and human like, Unmaking them does the opposite…even distorting these Spren cultural/personal inclinations. 

·      Now because this is happening on Roshar, there are natural effects and laws of the world that separates the new Unmade into categories (this relates back to the Surgebinding chart alluded to before. 

o   There are a couple ways to divide the Unmade into categories (physical, cognitive, spiritual realms, etc.) But for this I made a 3X3 organizer with Odium, Cultivation and Honor on one side and Intelligent, Middling and Unintelligent on the top. Nine positions for nine Unmades.

o   Starting at the TOP position with Honor/Windrunners, then counting three for each group: Honor = Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers. Cultivation = Edgedancers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers. Odium = Lightspren, Peakspren, Mistspren. 

o   Also, within each of these three groups, there should be ONE intelligent Unmade, ONE middling Unmade and one unintelligent Unmade.

·      Odium Unmade the 9 TRUE SPREN to create these Unmade: 

o   Honorspren = Odium pulled an Honorspren into the physical world and they became Ba-ado Mishram. BAM was a leader for their side much like Windrunners. Also, people think BAM gave the singers forms to help Odiums forces, but if you look at it like BAM wanted to do it in spite of Odium…BAM kind of broke its oaths. This is the Intelligent Unmade for the first three positions. 

o   Highspren = Odium pulled a Highspren into the physical world and they became Chemoarish. This Unmade has little known about them. I predict they will be a middling Unmade (not too smart or too primal). Skybreakers DO have the Surge of Division, so maybe Dustmother incorrectly became associated with the Dustbringers when in reality, it was connected to the Skybreakers. No idea how Highspren’s sense of law factors into Chemoarish yet. 

o   Ashspren = Odium pulled a Ashspren into the physical realm and it became Re-shephir. Re-shephir is the Unintelligent Unmade for these three. Dustbringers are interested in breaking things apart to see them. As a result, Re-shephir was altered and now observes how things work rather than breaking them. This doesn’t count if humans kill, because she doesn’t see this as breaking, but imitating. 

o   Cultivationspren = Odium pulled a Cultivationspren into the physical realm and it became Sja-anat. Sja-anat is the Intelligent Unmade for the next three spots on the Surgebinding chart. Cultivation spren are defined as fearful and trepidatious. Sja-anat became a daring Unmade who was brave enough to take secrets, pruning and planting secrets into the world to manipulate it as she tries to forge her own way in the world. 

o   Cryptics = Odium pulled a Cryptic spren into the physical realm and it became Moelach. Moelach is the middle intelligence spren for these three on the chart. This is because he can observe and speak through dying people. Cryptics enjoy truths and lies, so Moelach gravitated towards future sight and relaying it as a FACT even if it wasn’t…thus confusing humanity. Also, Moelach is in the Cultivation region of the Surgebinding Chart, and Cultivation is deemed the most gifted at foresight. 

o   Inkspren = Odium pulled an Inkspren into the physical world and it became Nergaoul. Inkspren are logical but when they were Unmade, they beame the Thrill…an illogical force of nature and the Unintelligent Unmade for this section of the Chart. (Also a little connection, but Inkspren can’t disappear in the physical realm, and The Thrill can’t disappear in the Cognitive realm.)

o   Lightspren = Odium pulled a Lightspren into the physical realm and it became Dai-gonarthis. (First, rhythms and sounds seem to be more natural to Roshar, thus Light investure may be more of Odium or humans, hence his section of the Chart and his most intelligent Unmade is Dai-gonarthis.) Lightspren seem to have the strongest connection to singers…they can go in gem hearts, hear rhythms and understand them, know how to subdue Voidspren. We don’t know much about Dai-gonarthis, but if it was the Unmade that scoured Aimia, Odium may be behind this to get at the Dawnshards or something else. The one note in COPPERMIND I saw is that Dai-gonarthis is classified as a mid-level Unmade, but I NEVER see that mentioned anywhere in text. And the reference COPPERMIND has doesn’t seem to imply that either in my opinion.

o   Peakspren = Odium pulled a Peakspren into the physical realm and it became Yelignar. We don’t know much about Peakspren other than they are described as Individualistic. This was corrupted when it became Unmade because now it can’t exist without another person to bond and use. Since Yelignar can communicate once inside someone, it is the Middle intelligence Spren for this section of the Chart. 

o   Mistspren = Odium pulled a Mistspren into the physical realm and it became Ashertmarn. Ashertarn is a mindless Unmade focused on extreme emotion and passion because it is from Odium’s part of the Chart. Mistspren are open to enlightenment and truth, and as such were corrupted into being an Unmade who seeks no truth, only carnal pleasure. 

 

These ideas leave no room or explanation for BONDSMITHS. There is always something funky going on with them, and this is about Odium’s balance to the 9 surges of Roshar. 

 

Part 2: Ba-ado-Mishram’s Powerful Effects

·      The next part of this theory relies on one major tenant: we have NO idea the extent of BAM’s powers or the ramifications of what they did before their capture. 

·      So following the timeline, Knights Radiant and Heralds are fighting and succeeding in Desolations until Odium pulls these Spren into the physical world, Unmakes them and now the Unmade are making it more difficult for humanity to catch up, Heralds break faster and humanity can’t recover. 

·      The Heralds Abandon their oathpact. 

·      One thing to note here, which will become important later, is that based on most visions we get from the past through Dalinar’s eyes, the peoples of Roshar at this point do not look as varied in their races and physical appearances as later in Rosharan history. 

·      Ba-ado-mishram does SOMETHING that we know gives Listeners forms. 

o   But what’s more important…is what happened to Spren. 

·      Spren who were of the fourth ideal or lower became Deadeyes. 

·      Spren of the FIFTH ideal were ripped from the cognitive realm and became humans. 

·      Despite this, most orders of the Knights Radiant wanted to imprison or destroy BAM. 

·      Fearing this would never allow the problem to fixed, Windrunners and Stonewards…two groups dedicated to protection and winning battles that seem unwinnable, they gave up their powers so as to protect their Spren from this happening again…since they wouldn’t be killing BAM. 

·      Once the False Desolation was over and the Knights Radiant disbanded, a more modern version of society began to take place as Roshar drifted away from the Epoch Kingdoms and the Desolations. 

·      The fifth ideal spren who became humans, spread across Roshar, mating with humans and creating the diverse races we now see on Roshar. 

o   I’ve tried matching Spren descriptions with Racial descriptions on Roshar, allowing for some tweaking, but there are some interesting connections and theories…there are 9 True Spren and anywhere between 8-11 races on Roshar depending on how you break it down or look at it…also which history or historian you believe. (Including Sanderson here)

·      As a result of all this, any Spren who understood how Nahel bonding worked or what was going on in the physical realm either a.) became humans trapped in the physical realm, or B.) became a Deadeye who can’t communicate. This means the old, reluctant spren who stayed in the cognitive realm and didn’t want to bond became the only survivors (why Syl was special?). This gives them a biased and illogical recollection of these events.

 

Part 3: So What’s this Mean?

·      So far this theory really focuses on World Building and history that puts certain things more into categories and profiles, rather than using it as a basis for a theory going forward. 

·      Everything on my theory going forward hinges on what we DON’T KNOW about Ba-ado-mishram. 

·      My prediction is that when BAM is released and does the thing that it does…along with the aid of an UNCHECKED Bondsmith (Ishar), she will transport the ENTIRE spren population into the physical realm…or rather combine them together…thus eliminating the Nahel bond as we know it in terms of using STORMLIGHT. 

·      One theory I saw online that helped spark this idea was the fact that the 5 POV characters in the back half are characters with SPECIAL circumstances that will allow them powers WITHOUT a typical Nahel Bond. 

o   Jasnah will use ADVANCED fabrial technology to perform her abilities. 

o   Lift uses food to power her abilities. 

o   Taln uses his Honorblade

o   Ash uses her Honorblade (but about this time in the series I see the connection being fixed in time for Ash to join ANOTHER Order, thus proving it can be done again)

o   Renarin uses Voidlight to access abilities. 

 

Part 4: One Last Tin-Foil Connection to SHALLAN/SPREN

 

NOTE – I’m not going to refer to Veil, Radiant and Shallan in this part because the specific actions taken my each don’t affect this theory really. ALL Shallan’s refer to whatever Shallan is speaking at a particular part. 

 

·      As I’m doing my re-read, the one major theory I’ve had for a few years now ALWAYS pops back into my head as more evidence appears. I’ve written about it before on here but have ALWAYS been refuted because of one specific WOB:

o   Shallan’s parents are really Shallan’s parents. 

·      This is relevant because I’m almost POSITIVE we have seen someone on page who is or was a SPREN…only they don’t know it because they were pulled into the physical realm similar to Ishar has done and BAM has done if you believe this theory. 

·      I think when Brandon mentions Shallan’s history in WOBs, he answers sometimes as in world interpretations. If Shallan’s parents THOUGHT or BELIEVED in her enough, or took the proper actions to BRING her into the physical realm, maybe they truly DO think of themselves as parents. 

·      I don’t want to repost my ideas and evidence about Shallan being a spren become human…but some new ideas connecting this to her RoW journey popped up as I read.

o   This all comes specifically from chapter 26 in RoW (A Little Espionage) 

o   Shallan starts the chapter not great, comes out and does OK, but by the end something really freaks her out bad and she retreats again. 

o   When we first see Shallan, she is drawing and Cryptics are standing around her observing her. The same way someone sent on a spy quest is debriefed for intelligence by their commanding officers, they seem to be acquiring the knowledge of what Shallan has come to understand about people and humans.

o   Next, Shallan begins investigating Ishnah who got into something she didn’t understand or realize the extent of and is now over her head. 

§  SHALLAN transforming into the Physical realm and not knowing it and being over her head. 

o   Next Shallan goes to Beryl who says: “That I could walk away if I wanted to. Nothing was keeping me there. 

§  Nothing is keeping Spren from doing this if they know how. SHALLAN is proof of this. 

o   Next, Beryl says: the almighty’s greatest blessing to humans, the ability to change. Sometimes all we need is a seed.

§  SHALLAN changes from Spren to human (not sure about the seed)

o   Next, Vathah says: Figure if I learn to Lightweave well enough, Maybe I’ll turn into someone else…”

§  SHALLAN is a Lightweaver and she changed from Spren to human. 

o   The NEXT LINE After that quote, Shallan thinks: That stabbed her straight through.

§  It’s because she sort of remembers this…

o   Finally, when Vathah says it again that he would like to be someone new…Shallan replies with this! “YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT LIGHTWEAVING”

§  Because she knows she has done it…become someone new. A human from a spren. 

o   At the end of the chapter, Veil specifically says that something Shallan thought in the last few pages was about to stir the truth and her memories…

§  But SHALLAN ties herself in a knot and shuts down. 

 

 

TL:DR:

 

·      Surgebinding Chart gives clues to how Odium took the 9 TRUE SPREN and Unmade them; using this as justification to attempt it, Ba-ado-mishram attempts this as well and screws up the world by bringing over bonded Spren and killing bonded Spren when she connected to Listeners. This led to different Races on Roshar and gives evidence to my theory that Shallan is really a Spren turned human and doesn’t know it. 

 

PS – I have another big piece I’m working on that says Szeth was also a Spren, maybe Nale’s, before he was brought into the physical realm as well. (fifth book based on Szeth would be the place to present this.) 

 

 

Let me know what you think. 

[Quantus he/him]

I like it, overall, but I have one hang-up: Midnight Essence is not (exclusively?) a Rosharan thing, which makes me think some of the UnMade came from off-world (or their raw material did).  But thats nothing more than a feeling, Im sure there are ways around it.   Do you have any theories on how a spren-based Unmade gained access to what seems to be an offworld

Spoiler

Aether power?

 

[Treamayne]

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Hope that helps.

1 hour ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Please, my weakest aspect of fandom is the knowledge released in WOBs.

Do you know how to search/find them? Examples:

• Go to the Coppermind Unmade page, while reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
• When looking at a WoB in the arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag to make a search of all entries with that tag
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example)

Hope that helps

[Jozomby he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I like it, overall, but I have one hang-up: Midnight Essence is not (exclusively?) a Rosharan thing, which makes me think some of the UnMade came from off-world (or their raw material did).  But thats nothing more than a feeling, Im sure there are ways around it.   Do you have any theories on how a spren-based Unmade gained access to what seems to be an offworld

  Reveal hidden contents

Aether power?

 

I'm pretty sure that Midnight Essence is like lightweaving, elsecalling, etc. where various magic systems can produce similar effects, so the people in the cosmere use the same words for them.  I would expect that goopy-darkness-monsters produced by any magic system would be called "midnight essence" just like illusions are lightweaving, and teleporting is elsecalling, regardless of the magic system powering it.  I don't think seeing midnight essence in two different places necessarily means they're using the same magic system.

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

 

Some stuff idk

This also lines up with the fact that the Sibling could be unmade - they were in theory a true spren.

Although the sibling potentially being unmade throws off any good theories. 

Tarvanagain (or however you pronounce it) called the unmade a deviation, a flair, that isn't worth your time.

This implies that the unmade no longer follow normal rules, so most theories about them are basically far off since anything could happen with them. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Aeoliae said:

Taravangian (or however you pronounce it) called the unmade a deviation, a flair, that isn't worth your time.

Keep in mind that from Smartest-T's perspective, the goal was to become "King of the World" for the stated purpose of making a deal with Oduim to "spare his people" (and the unstated purpose of ego-stroking and megalomania). Chasing research and theories on the Unmade was a deviation from that purpose (which may or may not imply they are a Deviatoin in other ways). His clock was ticking until the Everstorm and at the point when this was written the Diagram hadn't even been formed yet (since writing all of this is what led to that organization's formation), so while Smartest-T probably also devised the plan to form the Diagram and build it into an organization to influence all of Roshar; they hadn;t formed and pursueing things that did not directly relate to the goal was "not worth your time." (Note: Some aspects were deemed worth the time - hence the Death Rattle Farms)

[Aeoryi she/her]

33 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that from Smartest-T's perspective, the goal was to become "King of the World" for the stated purpose of making a deal with Oduim to "spare his people" (and the unstated purpose of ego-stroking and megalomania). Chasing research and theories on the Unmade was a deviation from that purpose (which may or may not imply they are a Deviatoin in other ways). His clock was ticking until the Everstorm and at the point when this was written the Diagram hadn't even been formed yet (since writing all of this is what led to that organization's formation), so while Smartest-T probably also devised the plan to form the Diagram and build it into an organization to influence all of Roshar; they hadn;t formed and pursueing things that did not directly relate to the goal was "not worth your time." (Note: Some aspects were deemed worth the time - hence the Death Rattle Farms)

I suppose you could be correct, but the sibling becoming unmade (potentially) could strongly throw off any theory

Although has anyone what the true spren represent?

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Part 1: Odium Unmakes True Spren 

Responding to the whole thing. I don't think all of Unmades were True Spren. This is because Unmades are the most invested entities on Roshar, second behind Bondsmith's spren. Far greater than True Spren. That would require a lot of investiture to be pushed into a True Spren to reach that level of investment (Unmades in CR are huge). But you've found interesting connections between true spren and unmades. However, Re-shephir uses Midnight Essence, which is something known in Cosmere and related to Aethers - if she was a True Spren unmade why would she be/have Midnight Essence?

Also you said Odium pulled a spren into Physical Realm and Unmade them - Unmades don't exist just in Physical Realm, they are so invested that they exist in both at the same time, seeing into both PR and CR.

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      One thing to note here, which will become important later, is that based on most visions we get from the past through Dalinar’s eyes, the peoples of Roshar at this point do not look as varied in their races and physical appearances as later in Rosharan history. 

Disagree, WoK, ch 52, Feverstone keep vision: we have a person with red hair (Horneather), most didn't attract attention of Dalinar, so they looked mostly like Alethi (or some other race), and the first Radiant who abandoned their Oaths wes pale with blond hair, possibly Shin. Another Radiant had tanned skin and dark hair, possibly Alethi, and finally Dalinar remarked that Radiants were of all nationalities. 

Quote

One—a tall, red-haired man

The Shardbearer removed his helm, exposing a handsome head with blond hair and pale skin, light as that of a man from Shinovar.

The man turned; his skin was tan and his hair dark, like an Alethi.

They were of all races and nationalities, dark skin and light, some with white Thaylen eyebrows, others with the skin ripples of the Selay.

Keep in mind, because of Oathgates and Vorin right to free travel, people would simply travel or fight in different regions together with others.

One of the races, Iriali, didn't come from Ashyn like other humans, but later from a different place. Nale and Taln have different appearances, Nale and Taln look like Makabaki or Azish. Jez and Kalak look like Alethi. Chana in the picture is pale and has red hair, Vedel and Pailiah are also pale with dark hair, Shalash is dark with dark hair and no epicanthic folds, and Ishar looks like Shin. Already among Heralds you have several races. This means that modern Rosharan races date back to Ashyn like Heralds do. Those races were on Roshar since humans arrived there.

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      Spren of the FIFTH ideal were ripped from the cognitive realm and became humans. 

Where did you get that from? I think this is impossible. Spren doesn't have a body in PR, they have their own identity and own connections, and their nature of Splinters is far different than human nature.

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      Ba-ado-mishram does SOMETHING that we know gives Listeners forms. 

o   But what’s more important…is what happened to Spren. 

·      Spren who were of the fourth ideal or lower became Deadeyes. 

·      Spren of the FIFTH ideal were ripped from the cognitive realm and became humans. 

·      Despite this, most orders of the Knights Radiant wanted to imprison or destroy BAM. 

·      Fearing this would never allow the problem to fixed, Windrunners and Stonewards…two groups dedicated to protection and winning battles that seem unwinnable, they gave up their powers so as to protect their Spren from this happening again…since they wouldn’t be killing BAM. 

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Ba-ado-mishram attempts this as well and screws up the world by bringing over bonded Spren and killing bonded Spren when she connected to Listeners

You suggest that the imprisonment of BAM happened after spren got messed up, and became a deadeye or humans? That's not how it was. We saw 4th Ideal Radiants abandoning their Oaths, this is in conflict with your theory as those spren would be dead by then. Deadeyes were the result of breaking their Oaths, spren weren't killed just because. Radiants had to break Oaths first, and they did it together with their spren as we know from RoW and Maya. From Siblings words, imprisonment of BAM hurt anyone belonging to Roshar, especially spren, it ripped a part of their soul from them - that's why deadeye happened after BAM was put in a gem.

Also there was no indication of anything happening with Spren before imprisonment of BAM in the Urithiru gem archive. They talk about how BAM connected herself to Singers granting them forms of power, and how they plan to stop that, but not a word about something bad happening with Spren. The Sibling was bound at that time, they broke their bond before the Tower was abandoned and BAM was imprisoned - this didn't deadeye the Sibling. The Sibling was hurt only after BAM was put into a gem, and they lost the ability to hear Honor's rhythm.

And why this would only happen to True Spren, not every Spren including Lesser Spren? Why weren't Lesser Spren deadeyed in your theory? And why this didn't affect Highspren and Skybreakers - those spren weren't deadeyed, Radiants of this order remained hidden and on duty.

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

why Syl was special?

Because she wasn't ready to bond, her knight died shortly before Recreance, and she couldn’t live through that pain and went into a coma, missing Recreance. She was sleeping for thousands of years.

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      As a result of all this, any Spren who understood how Nahel bonding worked or what was going on in the physical realm either a.) became humans trapped in the physical realm

They could. They would know about Horneater's perpendicularity and would travel there to access CR to explain themself to their spren friends. This didn't happen. Nobody went back.

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      My prediction is that when BAM is released and does the thing that it does…along with the aid of an UNCHECKED Bondsmith (Ishar), she will transport the ENTIRE spren population into the physical realm…or rather combine them together…thus eliminating the Nahel bond as we know it in terms of using STORMLIGHT. 

That's far beyond the power of a single spren. You're talking about forcibly transporting thousands of highly invested Splinters of Honor and Cultivation and giving them body in PR, which they don't have. I think that's just impossible.

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

o   Lift uses food to power her abilities. 

o   Renarin uses Voidlight to access abilities. 

They both have no abilities without their spren and bond.

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

o   Shallan’s parents are really Shallan’s parents. 

Yes, confirmed by WoBs.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

3 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      This is relevant because I’m almost POSITIVE we have seen someone on page who is or was a SPREN…only they don’t know it because they were pulled into the physical realm similar to Ishar has done and BAM has done if you believe this theory. 

We didn't? Are you referring to Axies the Collector, the Siah Aimian? They are a different race, looking blue, able to change their skin and write on them etc. Their shadow points towards the sun. There were many theories about them, some suggest those are 5th ideal Honorspren due to some circumstances. But in your theory they can't be. Aimians were friends of Radiants, they existed long before Recreance, so the timeline doesn't check up for your theory to work (if you're talking about Axies). Siah and humans even interbreed resulting in creation of Natanatan people with their blueish skin.

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

·      I think when Brandon mentions Shallan’s history in WOBs, he answers sometimes as in world interpretations. If Shallan’s parents THOUGHT or BELIEVED in her enough, or took the proper actions to BRING her into the physical realm, maybe they truly DO think of themselves as parents. 

Maybe because her mother might have been a Herald?  But I can't find those WoBs you're talking about.

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

o   This all comes specifically from chapter 26 in RoW (A Little Espionage) 

o   Shallan starts the chapter not great, comes out and does OK, but by the end something really freaks her out bad and she retreats again. 

o   When we first see Shallan, she is drawing and Cryptics are standing around her observing her. The same way someone sent on a spy quest is debriefed for intelligence by their commanding officers, they seem to be acquiring the knowledge of what Shallan has come to understand about people and humans.

o   Next, Shallan begins investigating Ishnah who got into something she didn’t understand or realize the extent of and is now over her head. 

§  SHALLAN transforming into the Physical realm and not knowing it and being over her head. 

o   Next Shallan goes to Beryl who says: “That I could walk away if I wanted to. Nothing was keeping me there. 

§  Nothing is keeping Spren from doing this if they know how. SHALLAN is proof of this. 

o   Next, Beryl says: the almighty’s greatest blessing to humans, the ability to change. Sometimes all we need is a seed.

§  SHALLAN changes from Spren to human (not sure about the seed)

o   Next, Vathah says: Figure if I learn to Lightweave well enough, Maybe I’ll turn into someone else…”

§  SHALLAN is a Lightweaver and she changed from Spren to human. 

o   The NEXT LINE After that quote, Shallan thinks: That stabbed her straight through.

§  It’s because she sort of remembers this…

o   Finally, when Vathah says it again that he would like to be someone new…Shallan replies with this! “YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT LIGHTWEAVING”

§  Because she knows she has done it…become someone new. A human from a spren. 

o   At the end of the chapter, Veil specifically says that something Shallan thought in the last few pages was about to stir the truth and her memories…

§  But SHALLAN ties herself in a knot and shuts down. 

Yeah, no. I'm not following this. For me it looks like you draw random connections with nothing or for something we know already. Shallan has DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder). She literally becomes someone else with the help of Lightweaving. That's what Vathah was talking about. 

4 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Ba-ado-mishram attempts this as well and screws up the world by bringing over bonded Spren and killing bonded Spren when she connected to Listeners

Nale is still boned to his spren. He joined the Order when he was still a Herald and fought in Desolations. 

 

That was an interesting theory. Nicely written. The first part was the most believable in my opinion, why I still don't agree with the whole, you've found interesting connections between True Spren and Unmade. Those might be important.

[Hare_Mettle he/him]

Alder - 

Thanks for the information and clarification on some of this stuff. 

Quote

Keep in mind, because of Oathgates and Vorin right to free travel, people would simply travel or fight in different regions together with others.

One of the races, Iriali, didn't come from Ashyn like other humans, but later from a different place. Nale and Taln have different appearances, Nale and Taln look like Makabaki or Azish. Jez and Kalak look like Alethi. Chana in the picture is pale and has red hair, Vedel and Pailiah are also pale with dark hair, Shalash is dark with dark hair and no epicanthic folds, and Ishar looks like Shin. Already among Heralds you have several races. This means that modern Rosharan races date back to Ashyn like Heralds do. Those races were on Roshar since humans arrived there.

I'd say this is the most outlandish part of my theory...so I get what you're saying. I was trying to connect the 10 Epoch Kingdoms, 10ish races on Roshar, 10 True Siren, with the idea of how people look and why. Is it possible (improvising as I type here), since I got the timelines wrong, that Spren were starting to become sentient and sapient to the point that they were becoming human ALREADY. by the time humans came? And by forming the Oathpact, it made an agreement where the humans could get back there powers from Braize, and Soren could eventually become physical formed humans again, by saying the Fifth Ideal?

I only harp on this idea of bringing Sprens into the physical realms permenantly as humans because it was brought to our attention in RoW...and my logic is that if Ishar is trying to do it now....it has either been done before in a different way on purpose, or by accident. 

 

Quote

Where did you get that from? I think this is impossible. Spren doesn't have a body in PR, they have their own identity and own connections, and their nature of Splinters is far different than human nature.

I didn't get Spren becoming human physical forms from the 5th Ideal from anywhere...it's just a theory I see in foreshadowing or gut feeling prediction. I know what the defined expectations are of Spren as we HEAR it stated to us now by fallible IN WORLD characters who don't know anything. The Everstorm came and blew the wrong way UNTIL it did. So it was either done in the past like that and forgotten, or done by a new interesting way now. THIS is what I'm talking about with the fifth ideal and its mechanics. It just don't seem like BS to me, to introduce these 5 ideals so early...and have it progress with similar stakes at each juncture. 

 

Quote

o   Lift uses food to power her abilities. 

o   Renarin uses Voidlight to access abilities. 

Good points...still unique compared to the others...so I think there will be a problem with either Sprens or Starlight usage in the traditional sense.

 

Quote

o   This all comes specifically from chapter 26 in RoW (A Little Espionage) 

o   Shallan starts the chapter not great, comes out and does OK, but by the end something really freaks her out bad and she retreats again. 

o   When we first see Shallan, she is drawing and Cryptics are standing around her observing her. The same way someone sent on a spy quest is debriefed for intelligence by their commanding officers, they seem to be acquiring the knowledge of what Shallan has come to understand about people and humans.

o   Next, Shallan begins investigating Ishnah who got into something she didn’t understand or realize the extent of and is now over her head. 

§  SHALLAN transforming into the Physical realm and not knowing it and being over her head. 

o   Next Shallan goes to Beryl who says: “That I could walk away if I wanted to. Nothing was keeping me there. 

§  Nothing is keeping Spren from doing this if they know how. SHALLAN is proof of this. 

o   Next, Beryl says: the almighty’s greatest blessing to humans, the ability to change. Sometimes all we need is a seed.

§  SHALLAN changes from Spren to human (not sure about the seed)

o   Next, Vathah says: Figure if I learn to Lightweave well enough, Maybe I’ll turn into someone else…”

§  SHALLAN is a Lightweaver and she changed from Spren to human. 

o   The NEXT LINE After that quote, Shallan thinks: That stabbed her straight through.

§  It’s because she sort of remembers this…

o   Finally, when Vathah says it again that he would like to be someone new…Shallan replies with this! “YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT LIGHTWEAVING”

§  Because she knows she has done it…become someone new. A human from a spren. 

o   At the end of the chapter, Veil specifically says that something Shallan thought in the last few pages was about to stir the truth and her memories…

§  But SHALLAN ties herself in a knot and shuts down. 

Yeah, no. I'm not following this. For me it looks like you draw random connections with nothing or for something we know already. Shallan has DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder). She literally becomes someone else with the help of Lightweaving. That's what Vathah was talking about. 

This is the part I'm most passionate about. And I didn't quote all the passages I am connecting to this idea. 

And if you're not seeing the connection, Alder, it's just that you're reading the metaphor as if it's commenting on her DID. I'm reading these metaphors as commenting on her having once been a Spren. We know and HAVE known Shallan has DID, her Unseen Court knows about...there would be no reason for her to speak more literally to her team about the personas she has created. Heck, some of them even ask her if it works for her. And they ARENT talking about looking or appearing as someone else...they are talking about TURNING into someone else...which again, is NOT DID. You don't turn into someone else. 

If you're hung up on the DID part, and think it would be cheap for BS to take that aspect and agency of a great character and make it 'supernatural'. But this isn't the point I'm arguing. You'd be thinking about this all wrong. I'm saying once this transformation happened and Shallan was perceived so FULLY, or magically, or whatever...she is NOW a LITERAL human with human problems and conditions, etc. So she WAS a spren, BECAME a human, and then has DID to cope with what she sort of remembers...

I'll try to find some more foreshadowing, allusions, evidence (in my pov) to support this. Another I know from the top of my head is in the FIRST Syl chapter we ever get, she talks about how Spren have TWO separate minds that they can't always control. One wants to go play and learn and ask questions...the other wants to hold oaths and be serious and help Kaladin. This sounds like an allusion to Radiant and Shallan to me. 

 

Thanks for the advice everyone and Ardent, you're a good person for challenging me on this. Thanks

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Alder

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Hope that helps.

 

38 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Is it possible (improvising as I type here), since I got the timelines wrong, that Spren were starting to become sentient and sapient to the point that they were becoming human ALREADY. by the time humans came?

No. There were no humans on Roshar before the arrival of Ashynites. I don't think a spren can become a human just like that - look at Ishar's experiments, those spren looks like their Cognitive form. The only thing that can be done to spren is to somehow transfer them into PR from CR (like Ishar is doing), without killing them. But because we know from Ishar's experiments that spren simply cannot live physically like humans - even Stormfather said this is abomination, spren aren't like humans and can't exist and die like them in PR.

38 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

And by forming the Oathpact, it made an agreement where the humans could get back there powers from Braize, and Soren could eventually become physical formed humans again, by saying the Fifth Ideal?

Oathpact was made long before spren started to bond with humans and give them Surgebinding abilities. We know that it was a surprise even to Honor when Spren started to mimic Honorblades and grant surges to regular people by bonding with them. This was after Oathpact and Honorblades were made. Ishar later bound Surgebinding into Knights Radiants, with Oaths and restrictions. 

43 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

I only harp on this idea of bringing Sprens into the physical realms permenantly as humans because it was brought to our attention in RoW...and my logic is that if Ishar is trying to do it now....it has either been done before in a different way on purpose, or by accident. 

He doesn't want to make them human. He is simply bringing their cognitive body into the Physical Realm. All True Spren have humanoid bodies in CR, even Cryptics. But they aren't humans and can't be humans - they can however bring their body into PR, even if they die shortly after. 

There were some theories that Siah Aimian might be Honorspren brought to PR without dying, and they were able to breed with humans to create Natanatan people. While I find it unlikely, this is still possible, as proven by Ishar. 

59 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

I didn't get Spren becoming human physical forms from the 5th Ideal from anywhere...it's just a theory I see in foreshadowing or gut feeling prediction. I know what the defined expectations are of Spren as we HEAR it stated to us now by fallible IN WORLD characters who don't know anything. The Everstorm came and blew the wrong way UNTIL it did. So it was either done in the past like that and forgotten, or done by a new interesting way now. THIS is what I'm talking about with the fifth ideal and its mechanics. It just don't seem like BS to me, to introduce these 5 ideals so early...and have it progress with similar stakes at each juncture. 

Yes, I know it's a theory. I'm saying there are so many difficulties with a spren becoming a literal human that it's probably impossible. Their identity is tied to their spren nature and to Shards of Honor and Cultivation. They have their own Connection, their spirit web is different from humans. And because they are Splinters, they are Cognitive in nature, far more invested than a human. Because of that I don't think it's possible, not in a resonable way and for sure it didn't happened in the past. It might happened in the future, a Shard can likely make it happen. 

With each subsequent bond a spren is pulled more into PR, their mind gets more clear and can feel and experience like humans can. I don't feel that we need spren to become literal humans to make it meaningful.

52 minutes ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Good points...still unique compared to the others...so I think there will be a problem with either Sprens or Starlight usage in the traditional sense.

They are both unique with their bonds. Lift was changed by Cultivation herself, and because of that spren bond with here. Renarin is bonded with Enlighten spren, who was touched by Sja-Anat, Unmade of Odium. Glys is invested with Odium's investiture.

1 hour ago, Hare_Mettle said:

Heck, some of them even ask her if it works for her. And they ARENT talking about looking or appearing as someone else...they are talking about TURNING into someone else...which again, is NOT DID. You don't turn into someone else. 

As far as Shallan is concerned she is becoming someone else when she is Veil or Radiant. It makes then sesne why they are talking about turning into someone else.

2 hours ago, Hare_Mettle said:

I'll try to find some more foreshadowing, allusions, evidence (in my pov) to support this. Another I know from the top of my head is in the FIRST Syl chapter we ever get, she talks about how Spren have TWO separate minds that they can't always control. One wants to go play and learn and ask questions...the other wants to hold oaths and be serious and help Kaladin. This sounds like an allusion to Radiant and Shallan to me. 

Metaphor referring to Syl's nature as a spren and her responsibility as a Radiant's spren? And what about Veil's mind?

[Aeoryi she/her]

Lets avoid the talk about shallen's DID and the plot relevence of that. Mods tend to not like that. 

Any theories as to why Ishar was trying to bring spren into the PR?

[bmcclure7]

20 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

Lets avoid the talk about shallen's DID and the plot relevence of that. Mods tend to not like that. 

Any theories as to why Ishar was trying to bring spren into the PR?

Yes I believe he wants to  create new Herolds with out honors help. The first step is try to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow can have a physical body.  There's not many CS around so he is experimenting on Spren.  

Edited July 23, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Aeoryi she/her]

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes I believe he wants to  create new Herolds with out honors help. The first step is try to figure out how to give a cognitive shadow can have a physical body.  There's not many CS around so he is experimenting on Spren.  

Where is he gona get these CS? from the fused?

[bmcclure7]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:19 AM, Aeoliae said:

Where is he gona get these CS? from the fused?

The fused arnt looking to become heralds so no.

 

He probably intends to make his own. Making a CS  pretty easy if you have a lot of power. Fortunately for him he is on roshar so power is not a problem.  

But Heralds are not regular CS. They have physical bodies that seem to appear from no where. That's the part he hasn't cracked yet.   Hence his experiment's with spren

 

Once he figures that out he just need to connect the CS to what's left of the OP and then give them honor Blades.

Edited July 30, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

The fused arnt looking become heralds so no.

 

He probably intends to make his own. Making a CS  pretty easy if you have a lot of power. Fortunately for him he is on roshar so power is not a problem.  

But Heralds are not regular CS. They have physical bodies that seem to appear from no where. That's the part he hasn't cracked yet.   Hence his experiment's with spren

He could do what the fused do and just posses singers or people (singers are easier). why doesn't he just do that?

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Aeoliae said:

He could do what the fused do and just posses singers or people (singers are easier). why doesn't he just do that?

 Good question I suspect that his insanity has a part to play with that. I could easily see him becoming obsessed with Recreating the exact same process the Herald's use instead of using a simpler less complex method. 

 

Alternatively it's possible that having physical bodies is somehow important for connecting to the OP,  Or at least he may think that. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Good question I suspect that his insanity has a part to play with that. I could easily see him becoming obsessed with Recreating the exact same process the Herald's use instead of using a simpler less complex method. 

 

Alternatively it's possible that having physical bodies is somehow important for connecting to the OP,  Or at least he may think that. 

The heralds were still bound on Braize by the oathpact, although it is suggested that their physical bodies do not appear there. 

I was thinking it could be like the pursuer, where he can escape a body and recreate a new one, except the heralds wouldn't be able to do it consciously.

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Aeoliae said:

The heralds were still bound on Braize by the oathpact, although it is suggested that their physical bodies do not appear there. 

I was thinking it could be like the pursuer, where he can escape a body and recreate a new one, except the heralds wouldn't be able to do it consciously.

 That's what I pictured as well,  When in the cognitive realm abrays they have a Spren form ( Probably similar to Kel's cognitive form in SH)

 However whenever they cross open into the physical They're investure body becomes a physical body.  He is trying to see if he can recreate that process with Spren.  Bringing them into the physical in such a way that they actually become physical. 

 

Part of the process seems to be working they're definitely becoming physical, Now he just has to figure out how to keep them alive.

[Aeoryi she/her]

What happens to them? they die. Why do they die? probably because of the investiture escaping them and then the form colapses because of that. Which begs the question. Why can the spren survive in the pr normally but not when brought in? Is Ishi bringing them fully into the physical realm, including their cognative parts?

Also, since I just thought of this - the unmade are mentioned to be in both realms at once. Lift, also is inbetween two realms at once. Both are directly caused by a shard. Did cultivation "unmake" Lift?

[Hatman he/him]

On 7/20/2023 at 9:54 AM, Hare_Mettle said:

BAM was a leader for their side much like Windrunners.

This might be that we are just biased towards Windrunners because of how main characters are chosen. 

[Hatman he/him]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:32 PM, alder24 said:

Responding to the whole thing. I don't think all of Unmades were True Spren. This is because Unmades are the most invested entities on Roshar, second behind Bondsmith's spren. Far greater than True Spren. That would require a lot of investiture to be pushed into a True Spren to reach that level of investment (Unmades in CR are huge). But you've found interesting connections between true spren and unmades. However, Re-shephir uses Midnight Essence, which is something known in Cosmere and related to Aethers - if she was a True Spren unmade why would she be/have Midnight Essence?

Maybe the Dark Aethers that I believe were mentioned in the Lost Metal were related to Odium. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Hatman said:

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Maybe the Dark Aethers that I believe were mentioned in the Lost Metal were related to Odium. 

Please try to avoid double posting. You can quote multiple things in a single post. Moreover this is a Stormlight Archive subforum, if you want to say something about other books, put it please in a spoiler box. You can edit your post by clicking edit option at the bottom of it and add a spoiler box:

Spoiler

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Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

I highly doubt it. There are around 10 years between RoW and TLM - that means if Odium were to be free in RoW, he would have very little time to drive core Aethers' word into such a destructive state so that TwinSoul returning there would risk "extermination".  And he couldn't do it with one world for 7000 years, so I doubt he would be meddling with another.

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

Who wants to explain to me what an Aether is

Spoiler

It's in TLM, right?

I can't read TLM since it's not at my library

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Aeoliae said:

Who wants to explain to me what an Aether is

  Hide contents

It's in TLM, right?

I can't read TLM since it's not at my library

I try to avoid spoiling books, about Aethers:

Spoiler

Yes, they were introduced in TLM, and Tress. If you want to know some basics about them:

Spoiler

Primal Aethers are powerful invested sapient entities. They pre-date the Shattering of Adonalsium, and the rules don't apply to them. While they personally claim to be equal to Shards and even Adonalsium, their real power level is unknown. An Aether can bond with multiple people, creating Aetherbound - those can manipulate the essence of their Aether (also called Aether). For example the roseite Aetherbound can grow roseite crystals and create complicated structures out of them. There are 12 types of Aethers, each allow to manipulate different physical substances. The Midnight Aether allows to manipulate the Midnight Essence, which looks more or less like what Re-Shephir is doing (that's why we speculate that Unmade has to have something in common with Aethers). WoB (pre TLM mostly):

Spoiler

Questioner

Obviously the Shards are the top dogs in terms of power and stuff, but Hoid seems to be his own level of dangerous. Are there any other characters as sort of rivals to his ambition or power?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how you want to express it. Some of the dragons from Yolen are as old and are very crafty. You could argue that the aethers, the actual core aethers, are as ancient and potentially powerful. I wouldn't put them by raw power at Shard level, but they would claim that they are. Depends on what you would think there. There are some other individuals of a similar, not as dangerous as Hoid, but on a similar level. Been around for thousands of years, investigated a lot of the magics, and these sorts of things.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Bumtown1

Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Ostensibly, all of the magic that we’ve seen in the cosmere ultimately originated from Adonalsium. Ostensibly.

Brandon Sanderson

Ostensibly.

Questioner

Does Adonalsium have a counterpart with equal or comparable power? And if so, have we seen that counterpart’s influence in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a matter of personal philosophy. The aethers are said (by themselves) to co-date Adonalsium and to not be derived from Adonalsium’s power. So there is at least one that is theorized to be that way, but it’s going to depend on who you trust and who you talk to.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

ChromatiCaos

You said that all Investiture got assigned to a Shard when Adonalsium got Shattered, which Investiture do the Dawnshards draw from? What about the aethers?

Brandon Sanderson

Dawnshards and aethers both predate the Shattering, and the rules don't apply to them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

 

[Treamayne]

32 minutes ago, Aeoliae said:

Who wants to explain to me what an Aether is

I can't read TLM since it's not at my library

Aethers are also in the Aether of Night (noncanon) Unpublished Prose you can request in this thread. While the work is not canon, the Aethers are:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Aethy

Aether of Night was cannibalized; it's no longer going to be released. Apparently some of the concepts were taken and worked into other books, so it's no longer publishable.

Peter Ahlstrom

Actually it might be un-cannibalized. Some concepts went into Liar of Partinel, but now that book won't ever happen in that form. So there could still be one or more Aether books in the future. But it would be a ground-up rewrite like happened with Mistborn and Stormlight.

WeiryWriter

Wait, really? That's pretty big news, even just possibility of it happening. I presume the Shards of the world would change then? Since <spoiler> got reworked to be Ruin and such?

Peter Ahlstrom

Yeah, <spoiler> is essentially Ruin, so lots of things would change there. But the magic of the Aethers, especially, could get their own book later.

There is a reason that Aethers are already canon.

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Potential Cosmere Stories List

• Aether of Night. (Still in the cosmere, and you can see the odd remnant of an Aether popping up here and there. Bound to be drastically different from the unpublished novel, which I allow the 17th Shard to give out to people who request it on their forums. Basically, the only thing from it that is canon is the magic system.)

Quote

simonthekillerewok

How much have the aethers changed since Aether of Night? 

Brandon Sanderson

The big change I made to the aethers, other than adding this other world... A couple things going on with the aethers.

First off, when you finally meet people who bear the aethers (which we're calling aetherbound, currently, and I like that term), you will find that, in order to differentiate them from things like seons and things like spren bonds and things like that, I've decided that one core aether bonds a lot of people, and it's one entity that you are all bonding with. So, if you meet five aetherbound who have bound to the Verdant aether, they are all bound to the same individual, at least on the core aether world.

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And the other change is that I decided that aethers would be able to... I would have different things happening with them, different strains.

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I think that one of the things that really worked in Aether of Night was the mechanics of the aethers. I thought they had a lot of interesting storytelling play, I thought that they did different things than some of the other magics that I was writing did. And they have remained solidly a part of my brain for how the Cosmere will proceed. And that's why you see Mraize having a chunk of an aether and things like that in his trophy case. 

 

Though, there have been some changes since AoN was written (slight spoiler):

Spoiler

For example - AoN only has 6 Aethers; while Tress shows there will be more than that now.

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Treamayne
Added WoBs