Stormfather - Latest Theories? [SA5 Prologue]

HoidIsAdonalsium · July 7, 2023

Could the Stormfather be an Awakened being? It could help explain why he does not recollect a Herald dying as mentioned in the SA5 Prologue:

Quote

HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

He does not remember, because his memories have been tampered with. in the same manner as Wit's as seen at the end of RoW.

Other theories seen so far: Current Stormfather being a fake/SA5 Stormfather being a pretender-Ishar/Cultivation shenanigans.

alder24 · July 7, 2023

6 hours ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

Could the Stormfather be an Awakened being? It could help explain why he does not recollect a Herald dying as mentioned in the SA5 Prologue:

Quote

HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION

He does not remember, because his memories have been tampered with. in the same manner as Wit's as seen at the end of RoW.

Other theories seen so far: Current Stormfather being a fake/SA5 Stormfather being a pretender-Ishar/Cultivation shenanigans.

What? Awakened? Like he has Breaths like Hoid do? I doubt it, why and how? But he can't be Awakened, he's Tanavest's Cognitive Shadow, his full of Honor's investiture, investiture resist investiture, it would be impossible to Awaken something so invested. If he doesn't store his memories in Breaths, they can't be tamper with just like that. He isn't just a Stormfather, he's holding the biggest piece of Honor, only someone like Cultivation could try to mess with him, but that might be breaking some Oaths they made and be too much like a direct attack on another Shard - something Cultivation wouldn't want to do to Tanavest's CS (they were romantically involved).

Also Hoid storing his memories in Breaths works weirdly, as they are part of him and he remembers what's inside them, that's why Todium destroying some of his Breaths destroyed his memories.

Warbreaker spoiler:

Spoiler

But in Warbreaker Vasher knows how to store memories in Breaths to forget about them.

The easiest explanation is that he lied. Spren can lie. Honor isn't about telling the truth but about bonds. He's never told Dalinar that he was bonded with Gavilar, nor what Gavilar was doing and planning to do. He keeps so much information to himself and only talks about them when they get exposed (who Taln was, reasons for Recreance, identity of Ishar and many others). I find this behavior totally consistent with his character.

HoidIsAdonalsium · July 12, 2023

@alder24

Quote

But he can't be Awakened, he's Tanavest's Cognitive Shadow, his full of Honor's investiture, investiture resist investiture, it would be impossible to Awaken something so invested.

The thing is, we still do not know a lot about the Stormfathers Origins, he is a cognitive shadow but he may not have started out as one:

Quote

“During these days, Honor still lived. I was not yet fully myself. More of a storm. Less interested in men.”

—Stormfather about his origins

Besides, Nightblood and Vasher were one of the main reasons why I thought of Stormfather as an Awakened entity. These two characters were originally written into Stormlight Archive, and Warbreaker was written as a backstory for the characters. (WoB/reference somewhere. I can't find the exact link but here's the closes one I can find. Do correct me if I am wrong:)

From a storytelling perspective, Vasher and Nightblood have not had a major impact so far on the Stormlight books. It does feel like Brandon has written these two into Stormlight as an introdution to Awakened/Returned entities, with probably a big reveal scheduled for SA5. One of the most common SA5 theories floating around atm is of Vasher delivering an army of Awakened ancient soulcast statues of the ancient Radiants. I was looking for any alternatives that would involve Nightblood/Vasher/Awakening and came up with the original post.

+Child of Hodor · July 12, 2023

38 minutes ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

From a storytelling perspective, Vasher and Nightblood have not had a major impact so far on the Stormlight books. It does feel like Brandon has written these two into Stormlight as an introdution to Awakened/Returned entities, with probably a big reveal scheduled for SA5. One of the most common SA5 theories floating around atm is of Vasher delivering an army of Awakened ancient soulcast statues of the ancient Radiants. I was looking for any alternatives that would involve Nightblood/Vasher/Awakening and came up with the original post.

Nightblood killed Rayse allowing Taravangian to ascend. That's huge. It's true Vasher hasn't done much, but attack Kaladin with scarves and such.

Quote

It could help explain why he does not recollect a Herald dying as mentioned in the SA5 Prologue:

Spren like Syl change when they go from unbonded to bonded when their radiant dies. Even when they bond someone new they have trouble remembering their past for a while.

It could also be that Stormfather chooses not to mention it to Dalinar. Towards the end of the prologue Gavilar is like "You can lie?!". He speaks very differently to Dalinar from how he interacted with Gavilar. It could be that the Stormfather's personality changed for magical reasons or he's choosing to behave differently this time because last time was a disaster.

Stormfather as currently constituted is a merger of the cognitive shadow of a dead shard vessel (Tanavast) and a Bondsmith spren that used to be a separate entity.

Quote

You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel…you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find.

“You said that you were charged with this task,” Gavilar said. “By Honor. Finding someone to show the visions, to prevent calamity. You didn’t decide anything. You were instructed to do all of this.”

That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you? https://www.brandonsanderson.com/prologue-to-stormlight-5/

This entity is both the ghost of the guy that charged the spren to seek out Bondsmiths to show the visions AND the spren that received the charged to do it. He's a weird amalgam we don't fully understand and he may have been playing dumb on some things while genuinely not remembering others.

alder24 · July 12, 2023

1 hour ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

The thing is, we still do not know a lot about the Stormfathers Origins, he is a cognitive shadow but he may not have started out as one:

We do know he likely existed before the Shattering (as Highstorms predates the Shattering), was later infused with Honor's investiture and changed over time and with Honor's death he became his Cognitive Shadow. He can't be Awakened because Awakening didn't exist when he was created, he is invested with different type of investiture and investiture resist investiture.

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

1 hour ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

Besides, Nightblood and Vasher were one of the main reasons why I thought of Stormfather as an Awakened entity. These two characters were originally written into Stormlight Archive, and Warbreaker was written as a backstory for the characters. (WoB/reference somewhere. I can't find the exact link but here's the closes one I can find. Do correct me if I am wrong:)

Yes, they were a part of WoKPrime - but the magic system evolved. Awakening still makes sense in a broader Cosmere way - not everything invested is Awakened, but from a broader Cosmere point of view it means the same. Awakening invests an object, but you can invest something without using Awakening - Endowment does that by creating Returned, she invests them with Divine Breath turning them into CS. But Honor did the same with Heralds, he invested them turning them into CS, just like Odium did with Fused. All of them are the same type of BioChromatic entity, but created in a different way. Nightblood is basically a spren, a robot spren, created in their image, rather than just investiture coming alive on its own. Stormfather and every spren is so similar to Awakening because they work by the same broader Cosmere principles as Awakening.

1 hour ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

From a storytelling perspective, Vasher and Nightblood have not had a major impact so far on the Stormlight books. It does feel like Brandon has written these two into Stormlight as an introdution to Awakened/Returned entities, with probably a big reveal scheduled for SA5. One of the most common SA5 theories floating around atm is of Vasher delivering an army of Awakened ancient soulcast statues of the ancient Radiants. I was looking for any alternatives that would involve Nightblood/Vasher/Awakening and came up with the original post.

Nightblood had no major impact in SA? Excuse me? He killed Rayse. He had one of the biggest impacts on the SA series so far. Vasher was an introduction to Cosmere, to the idea of other words, and worldhopping. For us, who have already known this for years it's easy to overlook this right now, but it blew our minds when we realized that it's all connected. Vasher also trained Adolin, Renarin and Kaladin. There is certainly more to Vasher's presence on Roshar, but I can't see any connections between him, Nightblood and Stormfather.

Edited July 12, 2023 by alder24

Firesong · July 17, 2023

On 7/12/2023 at 7:26 AM, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

@alder24

The thing is, we still do not know a lot about the Stormfathers Origins, he is a cognitive shadow but he may not have started out as one:

Besides, Nightblood and Vasher were one of the main reasons why I thought of Stormfather as an Awakened entity. These two characters were originally written into Stormlight Archive, and Warbreaker was written as a backstory for the characters. (WoB/reference somewhere. I can't find the exact link but here's the closes one I can find. Do correct me if I am wrong:)

From a storytelling perspective, Vasher and Nightblood have not had a major impact so far on the Stormlight books. It does feel like Brandon has written these two into Stormlight as an introdution to Awakened/Returned entities, with probably a big reveal scheduled for SA5. One of the most common SA5 theories floating around atm is of Vasher delivering an army of Awakened ancient soulcast statues of the ancient Radiants. I was looking for any alternatives that would involve Nightblood/Vasher/Awakening and came up with the original post.

I would consider killing a Vessel and bringing forth the rise of a new Vessel to be a pretty major impact on the books, personally.

I am interested in what exactly Vasher is doing there. I know one thing he wants to do is learn how to Awaken with Stormlight, but it doesn't seem worth the risk at the moment, with the True Desolation and all. There is definitely something much deeper going on, and Brandon did say that there definitely is. He also says we will get more on him, Azure, and Nightblood in SA5, so I am looking forward to that.

alder24 · July 17, 2023

20 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I am interested in what exactly Vasher is doing there. I know one thing he wants to do is learn how to Awaken with Stormlight, but it doesn't seem worth the risk at the moment, with the True Desolation and all. There is definitely something much deeper going on, and Brandon did say that there definitely is. He also says we will get more on him, Azure, and Nightblood in SA5, so I am looking forward to that.

I don't think he wants to learn to Awaken with Stormlight that much, or that that was one of his goals to settle there. He tried to do that and failed, we know that, but it doesn't mean that was one of his main motivations. His primary reason to be there is easy access to investiture.

Moreover I think he's on Roshar because of his psychological and personal problems rather than because of any specific goal. He stated it himself in WoR ch 81 that he can't stand the memory of his home, and everytime he decides to breathe he makes a decision between two equally terrible things (or something like that, I lack the English version to quote precisely). In RoW he said that giving up the sword was the best mistake he ever made and that he hates fighting. I think he is just a broken man, by something that happened in the Warbreaker sequel, and he hid on Roshar among broken soldiers like he himself had become.

Spoiler

Questioner

So we already know that Vasher was Kaladin's trainer with a Shardblade, 'cause you told me that last time I asked you. So does Vasher just have a large mass of Biochromatic Breaths and that's how he's surviving, or is he somehow feeding off Stormlight while he is there?

Brandon Sanderson

He is feeding off of Stormlight, which is the primary reason why he came to Roshar. Investiture is easy to access in plentiful amounts.

Questioner

How did he know how to use Shardblades so well when he got there, is that related to how they created Nightblood

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he has experience with Roshar from hundreds of years ago.

White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016)

Spoiler

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

Firesong · July 17, 2023

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think he wants to learn to Awaken with Stormlight that much, or that that was one of his goals to settle there. He tried to do that and failed, we know that, but it doesn't mean that was one of his main motivations. His primary reason to be there is easy access to investiture.

Moreover I think he's on Roshar because of his psychological and personal problems rather than because of any specific goal. He stated it himself in WoR ch 81 that he can't stand the memory of his home, and everytime he decides to breathe he makes a decision between two equally terrible things (or something like that, I lack the English version to quote precisely). In RoW he said that giving up the sword was the best mistake he ever made and that he hates fighting. I think he is just a broken man, by something that happened in the Warbreaker sequel, and he hid on Roshar among broken soldiers like he himself had become.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So we already know that Vasher was Kaladin's trainer with a Shardblade, 'cause you told me that last time I asked you. So does Vasher just have a large mass of Biochromatic Breaths and that's how he's surviving, or is he somehow feeding off Stormlight while he is there?

Brandon Sanderson

He is feeding off of Stormlight, which is the primary reason why he came to Roshar. Investiture is easy to access in plentiful amounts.

Questioner

How did he know how to use Shardblades so well when he got there, is that related to how they created Nightblood

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he has experience with Roshar from hundreds of years ago.

White Sand vol.1 Orem signing (June 29, 2016)

Reveal hidden contents

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

Yeah, as I said, I doubt it was just to use Stormlight for Awakening, given that it is too big a risk and everything. He has more reason. But also, yeah, I forgot that he did know how to use it to stay alive, thanks for reminding me of those WoBs.

Whatever it is definitely has to do with Nightblood (the book). Something happened that deeply changed him and Vivenna, and led to him abandoning Nightblood. We know he wasn't a big fan of the blade, but something seemed to break the camel's back.

Letryx13 · July 17, 2023

On 7/12/2023 at 9:29 AM, Child of Hodor said:

It could also be that Stormfather chooses not to mention it to Dalinar. Towards the end of the prologue Gavilar is like "You can lie?!". He speaks very differently to Dalinar from how he interacted with Gavilar. It could be that the Stormfather's personality changed for magical reasons or he's choosing to behave differently this time because last time was a disaster.

I'm pretty confident that this is the reason he hasn't mentioned being bonded to Gavilar to Dalinar. It wasn't until Dalinar specifically asked if the StormFather knew where the heralds were that he actually told him. But at the same time, he didn't lie either. He could have concealed his knowledge of Ishar, but didn't.

It could be that the StormFather is behaving differently with Dalinar simply because he's a better match as a BondSmith. But I think it's a combination of that with the fact that Spren, particularly BondSmith class spren, think very differently from humans.

Firesong · July 17, 2023

11 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm pretty confident that this is the reason he hasn't mentioned being bonded to Gavilar to Dalinar. It wasn't until Dalinar specifically asked if the StormFather knew where the heralds were that he actually told him. But at the same time, he didn't lie either. He could have concealed his knowledge of Ishar, but didn't.

It could be that the StormFather is behaving differently with Dalinar simply because he's a better match as a BondSmith. But I think it's a combination of that with the fact that Spren, particularly BondSmith class spren, think very differently from humans.

Storm Daddy is pretty consistent in just, not saying something unless directly asked, even if it is very important and relevant. He does that a lot.

Fyodor32768 · July 18, 2023

The reason that the "Stormfather" talking to Gavilar knows this and the Stormfather talking to Dalinar does not is that the first one is Ishar, who forged the oathpact and is intimately much more knowledgeable about the status of the heralds. The real Stormfather also incorrectly assumed that Taln broke(it is confirmed by author he did not).

My assumption is that the real Stormfather can sense that the Oathpact is broken (or that someone gave in) but doesn't know all the details of what is happening with the heralds. He doesn't know that Chanarach was killed by her daughter and sent to Braize six years earlier and was the one who gave in to the torture. So he assumes that Taln finally gave in and that caused the oathpact to end.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Fyodor32768

alder24 · July 18, 2023

3 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

The reason that the "Stormfather" talking to Gavilar knows this and the Stormfather talking to Dalinar does not is that the first one is Ishar, who forged the oathpact and is intimately much more knowledgeable about the status of the heralds. The real Stormfather also incorrectly assumed that Taln broke(it is confirmed by author he did not).

My assumption is that the real Stormfather can sense that the Oathpact is broken (or that someone gave in) but doesn't know all the details of what is happening with the heralds. He doesn't know that Chanarach was killed by her daughter and sent to Braize six years earlier and was the one who gave in to the torture. So he assumes that Taln finally gave in and that caused the oathpact to end.

Or he lied, which is consistent with Stromfather we know. It took some time for Stormfather to admit to Dalinar that he was not only forced by Honor to choose a person for visions, but also to choose a person to bond and make new Bondsmith. Despite Dalinar and others talking multiple times about Heralds, Stormfather never joined until Dalinar asked him directly twice. Stormfather also hadn't told Dalinar for a long time that the mad person in Dalinar's camp was Taln, or that Taln's Honorblade is missing, or that he bonded Gavilar. He never said where and what the Sibling is and many, many other situations when he doesn't share information, omits the truth or even lies. Most of this is because he is expecting direct questions about all those things, and that's the core problem with Stormfather.

Quote

“When … when were you thinking of informing me of this?”
When you asked. When else would I speak of it?

The reason why Stormfather didn't tell Dalinar about Taln is explained in the SA 5 prologue:

Quote

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

There are "they" who can't know about it, and that's why he lied. Stormfather just wanted to hide the truth from people, just like he did at the end of WoR, he wanted to hide the truth of what happened in the Shattered Plains by sending an unexpected Highstorm to kill them all and hide their bodies.

And to oppose this theory further (which is really great theory, I just don't agree), Stormfather could sense Jezrien's perma-death, while Heralds, particularly Kalak, weren't able to sense who died in the Last Desolation - Kalak didn't know that Taln died, Jez and the rest didn't know that Kalak wasn't dead. For me this is the biggest argument against this theory.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Fyodor32768 · July 18, 2023

Other than the inconsistencies between prologue "stormfather" and the other one (who acts differently in a bunch of different ways and shows a bunch of different abilities/behaviors/interests) we haven't seen the Stormfather lie. He doesn't know or understand what information to volunteer but he doesn't lie.

Firesong · July 18, 2023

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or he lied, which is consistent with Stromfather we know. It took some time for Stormfather to admit to Dalinar that he was not only forced by Honor to choose a person for visions, but also to choose a person to bond and make new Bondsmith. Despite Dalinar and others talking multiple times about Heralds, Stormfather never joined until Dalinar asked him directly twice. Stormfather also hadn't told Dalinar for a long time that the mad person in Dalinar's camp was Taln, or that Taln's Honorblade is missing, or that he bonded Gavilar. He never said where and what the Sibling is and many, many other situations when he doesn't share information, omits the truth or even lies. Most of this is because he is expecting direct questions about all those things, and that's the core problem with Stormfather.

The reason why Stormfather didn't tell Dalinar about Taln is explained in the SA 5 prologue:

There are "they" who can't know about it, and that's why he lied. Stormfather just wanted to hide the truth from people, just like he did at the end of WoR, he wanted to hide the truth of what happened in the Shattered Plains by sending an unexpected Highstorm to kill them all and hide their bodies.

And to oppose this theory further (which is really great theory, I just don't agree), Stormfather could sense Jezrien's perma-death, while Heralds, particularly Kalak, weren't able to sense who died in the Last Desolation - Kalak didn't know that Taln died, Jez and the rest didn't know that Kalak wasn't dead. For me this is the biggest argument against this theory.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Wasn't Salash able to feel Jezerien die?

And also, in the Epigraphs from Kalak

Quote

"Jezrien is gone. Despite being all the way out here in Lasting Integrity, I felt him being ripped away. The Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent. And with further investigation, I know the truth of what happened to him. It felt like death at first, and I think that is what it ultimately became."

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last.
I should welcome the same. I do not. I fear you.

They are able to feel deaths, though seemingly only the permanent ones, as the prelude shows them finding out via what Shardblades are at their meeting place (which I think might be in Shinovar, as that is where humans landed on Roshar, and would also give an explanation to Shin access to the Honorblades despite their reluctance to leave their country or walk on stone).

So, I guess there is a difference there.

But yes, I agree that Stormfather really tries to keep secrets. He only tends to answer when directly asked, and when directly asked, tends to be overly vague. Like with the Spiritual Realm Visions, when Dalinar asked "what was that place" in OB, he just said "it was no place", and doesn't elaborate. The man is overly obtuse and secretive about everything. And I don't really trust him.

alder24 · July 18, 2023

2 hours ago, Fyodor32768 said:

Other than the inconsistencies between prologue "stormfather" and the other one (who acts differently in a bunch of different ways and shows a bunch of different abilities/behaviors/interests) we haven't seen the Stormfather lie. He doesn't know or understand what information to volunteer but he doesn't lie.

I don't want this topic to be derailed into Stormfather vs Stormfaker, as there is already a place where we discussed it all, using the same arguments. Except for this WoB about Jezrien's death, nothing new came up.

I don't see those inconsistencies. Stormfather is inconsistent already. He deemed humanity doomed and sent a Highstorm to kill them, a few days later he shouted at Dalinar that he would get himself bonded to be killed, but merely a moment later he accepted his Oath. He denied Kaladin's plea to spare people in Highstorm in OB, and moments later he wanted to apologize to him by guiding him towards Urithiru. He called Dalinar's actions in Rathalas justice then agree with Dalinar that it was a massacre. He shifts left and right constantly and we saw him do the same in prologue:

Quote

The Stormfather vanished, and Gavilar let them in—but spoke quietly, to the Stormfather, a request. “Watch the door for me. Tell me if Navani, or anyone else, comes to spy on me again.”

I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar.

[...]

He was shaken from the moment of solemnity by a voice in his head. Someone is approaching, the Stormfather warned. One of the Listeners. Eshonai, is her name. There is something about this one...

I can't see any ability that the prologue Stormfather has that Dalinar's Stormfather doesn't. And it's explained why he behaved so differently with Dalinar compared to Gavilar, he sworn to do it differently:

Quote

I warned you, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. This is my failure as much as yours. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought...your family...

Up until the KoWT prologue we simply didn't know Stormfather could lie or want to lie. But he lies, he lies by omission, which is still a lie. He keeps many secrets to himself.

OB ch 113:

Quote

I tried my best to hide this, the Stormfather said.
“So we could continue living a lie?”
It is, in my experience, the thing men do best.

OB ch 65:

Quote

Dalinar closed his eyes, listening to the unfamiliar language. As in Thaylen City, he had a moment of feeling he could almost understand. Stretching, he felt that meaning was close to him.
“Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather.
What makes you think I can?
“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered. “I’ve spoken new languages in the visions. You can make me speak Azish.”
The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you.

Firesong · July 18, 2023

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't want this topic to be derailed into Stormfather vs Stormfaker, as there is already a place where we discussed it all, using the same arguments. Except for this WoB about Jezrien's death, nothing new came up.

I don't see those inconsistencies. Stormfather is inconsistent already. He deemed humanity doomed and sent a Highstorm to kill them, a few days later he shouted at Dalinar that he would get himself bonded to be killed, but merely a moment later he accepted his Oath. He denied Kaladin's plea to spare people in Highstorm in OB, and moments later he wanted to apologize to him by guiding him towards Urithiru. He called Dalinar's actions in Rathalas justice then agree with Dalinar that it was a massacre. He shifts left and right constantly and we saw him do the same in prologue:

I can't see any ability that the prologue Stormfather has that Dalinar's Stormfather doesn't. And it's explained why he behaved so differently with Dalinar compared to Gavilar, he sworn to do it differently:

Up until the KoWT prologue we simply didn't know Stormfather could lie or want to lie. But he lies, he lies by omission, which is still a lie. He keeps many secrets to himself.

OB ch 113:

OB ch 65:

Yeah, I may not trust the Stormfather and think he is hiding a lot of things, and might even just be evil for all we know. I don't think that either is a fake Stormfather, they are definitely the same entity. (or maybe it is them swapping between being Stormfather and Tanavast, but that is just a theory I randomly thought up due to the flip-flopping, us knowing fusing with Tanavasts CS changed the Stormfather, and due to Brandon saying "we will know for sure about the remnants of Honor at the end of Book 5", but I have no real attachment to the theory, just thought it up randomly)

Hatman · July 25, 2023

On 7/7/2023 at 6:27 AM, alder24 said:

The easiest explanation is that he lied. Spren can lie.

Stormfather admits to lying in the prologue.

Hatman · July 25, 2023

On 7/18/2023 at 2:49 PM, alder24 said:

And to oppose this theory further (which is really great theory, I just don't agree), Stormfather could sense Jezrien's perma-death, while Heralds, particularly Kalak, weren't able to sense who died in the Last Desolation - Kalak didn't know that Taln died, Jez and the rest didn't know that Kalak wasn't dead. For me this is the biggest argument against this theory.

Sensing the permadeath was different from sensing the ordinary death.

alder24 · July 25, 2023

42 minutes ago, Hatman said:

Stormfather admits to lying in the prologue.

He wasn't that clear, Gavilar believed that SF lied, but:

Quote

“You lied,” Gavilar said. “You lied?”

Oh, Gavilar. There is so much you do not know. So much you assume. And the two never do manage to meet. Like paths to opposing cities.

[...]

Spren couldn’t lie. They couldn’t. He’d learned that from...the Stormfather.

My opinion is that Gavilar was so full of himself that he just assumed certain things (like he didn't believe Restares was Kalak, nor Nale was Nale) and didn't bother asking Stormfather. But Stormfather lied in OB.

32 minutes ago, Hatman said:

Sensing the permadeath was different from sensing the ordinary death.

Yes, explained above, but that wasn't my point. My point was that we've been shown in the very first pages of Stormlight Archive, in prelude, that Heralds can't feel each other regular-death. That's why I don't believe the Stormfaker is Ishar, because he wouldn't be able to feel another Herald dying. Stormfather on the other hand can sense Herald's perma-death and it's not a big stretch to assume that he, as Honor's Cognitive Shadow, holding the biggest piece of Honor, and therefore being tied to Oathpact, can sense that. Stormfather took duties of Honor, like accepting Oaths or creating new generations of Honorspren, it's likely that him being Honor's Cognitive Shadow tied him also to the Oathpact enough to feel Herald's regular-death. But Herald can't feel another Herald dying, even Ishar.

Firesong · July 25, 2023

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He wasn't that clear, Gavilar believed that SF lied, but:

My opinion is that Gavilar was so full of himself that he just assumed certain things (like he didn't believe Restares was Kalak, nor Nale was Nale) and didn't bother asking Stormfather. But Stormfather lied in OB.

Yes, explained above, but that wasn't my point. My point was that we've been shown in the very first pages of Stormlight Archive, in prelude, that Heralds can't feel each other regular-death. That's why I don't believe the Stormfaker is Ishar, because he wouldn't be able to feel another Herald dying. Stormfather on the other hand can sense Herald's perma-death and it's not a big stretch to assume that he, as Honor's Cognitive Shadow, holding the biggest piece of Honor, and therefore being tied to Oathpact, can sense that. Stormfather took duties of Honor, like accepting Oaths or creating new generations of Honorspren, it's likely that him being Honor's Cognitive Shadow tied him also to the Oathpact enough to feel Herald's regular-death. But Herald can't feel another Herald dying, even Ishar.

Did anyone say that it was the first when Jezrien died? I am rereading the series so will see again later, but my thought is that Shallan somehow did permanently kill Chanarach, which made "none returned to Damnation" actually true. And it also fits with her dying in the prologue, and him feeling it. When we have only seen feeling death before when it was a permanent death.

I could totally be wrong, but I do feel that Chanarach is permanently dead. Maybe Shardblades are capable of killing them.

alder24 · July 25, 2023

17 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Did anyone say that it was the first when Jezrien died? I am rereading the series so will see again later, but my thought is that Shallan somehow did permanently kill Chanarach, which made "none returned to Damnation" actually true. And it also fits with her dying in the prologue, and him feeling it. When we have only seen feeling death before when it was a permanent death.

Yes, multiple times in OB and RoW. Ash's reaction tells it was the first time perma-death happened, OB ch 121:

Quote

Ash stopped in place as something ripped inside of her.
Oh God. Oh, Adonalsium!
What was that? What was that?
Taln whimpered and collapsed, a puppet with cut strings. Ash stumbled, then sank to her knees. She wrapped her arms around herself, trembling. It wasn’t pain. It was something far, far worse. A loss, a hole inside of her, a piece of her soul being excised.
“Miss?” a soldier asked, jogging up. “Miss, are you all right? Hey, someone get one of the healers! Miss, what’s wrong?”
“They … they killed him somehow.…”
“Who?”
She looked up at the man, tears blurring her vision. This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible. She couldn’t feel him at all.
They’d done something to Jezrien’s soul.
“My father,” she said, “is dead.”

And Dalinar saw the Oathpact in RoW ch 47, only one line was broken (Jez) and one was strong (Taln):

Quote

Dalinar stepped forward, walking among his stunned bodyguards, noting eight lines of light extending from Nale into the distance.
“I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.”
A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind. It was broken. Even before Jezrien’s death, they shattered it by what they did long ago.
“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”

Firesong · July 25, 2023

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Yes, multiple times in OB and RoW. Ash's reaction tells it was the first time perma-death happened, OB ch 121:

And Dalinar saw the Oathpact in RoW ch 47, only one line was broken (Jez) and one was strong (Taln):

I disagree on the first, that could just be due to how they were father and daughter, so she had a lot of emotional connection with him.

But on the RoW one, yeah, I forgot that only one was broken in that scene. So yeah, Chana is alive. Wonder how Shallan would react to that fact. "Hey your mother is alive, but also, you sent her to be tortured so it was actually worse than you thought. Have a lovely day."

alder24 · July 25, 2023

19 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I disagree on the first, that could just be due to how they were father and daughter, so she had a lot of emotional connection with him.

"Taln whimpered and collapsed, a puppet with cut strings"...

20 minutes ago, Firesong said:

But on the RoW one, yeah, I forgot that only one was broken in that scene. So yeah, Chana is alive. Wonder how Shallan would react to that fact. "Hey your mother is alive, but also, you sent her to be tortured so it was actually worse than you thought. Have a lovely day."

Maybe she already knows that deep inside her? WoR ch 10:

Quote

The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.

Firesong · July 25, 2023

Just now, alder24 said:

"Taln whimpered and collapsed, a puppet with cut strings"...

Maybe she already knows that deep inside her? WoR ch 10:

True, true. I do remember her implying that several times, and there was also that one direct statement. I was more so wondering how she would react to having it confirmed.

Hope it doesn't cause too much psychological damage, she has been improving a lot recently in her mental health.

I wonder if we would be getting answers in 5, or after. As he did say that the Heralds are going to be really focused on in the second half. But also, the cause of the Desolation and the death of Shallan's mother would both tie so closely to the story of the first half that I doubt it is going to be pushed off to Era 2.

alder24 · July 25, 2023

6 minutes ago, Firesong said:

True, true. I do remember her implying that several times, and there was also that one direct statement. I was more so wondering how she would react to having it confirmed.

Hope it doesn't cause too much psychological damage, she has been improving a lot recently in her mental health.

I wonder if we would be getting answers in 5, or after. As he did say that the Heralds are going to be really focused on in the second half. But also, the cause of the Desolation and the death of Shallan's mother would both tie so closely to the story of the first half that I doubt it is going to be pushed off to Era 2.

Badly, she will cry and who could blame her. But if she were able to push through the Testament's revelation and grow, she can handle that truth too. On the bright side, her mother isn't dead, she is still alive and just insane. That's reassuring, right?

I think most of the main characters threads opened in SA 1-4 will be resolved in SA 5, like Shallan's past, Kaladin, Szeth stuff, Dalinar and Honor/Oathpact etc. Waiting 10 years just to see Shallan tell her final truth in someone else's book is anticlimactic kind of.

Stormfather - Latest Theories? [SA5 Prologue]

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Medium_Steak_6883

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Bystander

Brandon Sanderson

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Firesong she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Firesong she/her

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Firesong she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Firesong she/her

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Firesong she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Hatman he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites