The biggest challenge facing the new Knights Radiant

[Pathfinder]

With other people roaming around, that seems all the more reason to question all of the scouting parties. They are the ones best suited to eliminating suspects off the list. 

Adolin is in command of the exploration efforts entirely, not just the one partrol:

 

 

 

Adolin will also be a big part of eliminating suspects, as he's in charge of where the scouting parties should be at what time. The responsibility ultimately falls on the Lighteyes, because it's their job to lead, so Adolin would take flak for this, even if he hadn't committed it, because it happened under his command.

I don't know regarding the legal system of the Alethi, but it is my opinion based on modern day investigation, but removing forensics (since to my knowledge we have not see any sign of such existing in the book), then you do not have much of a case. All you have accomplished is call into question Adolin's where a bouts, and prove the Kholin soldiers are not valid witnesses/alibis. Under the rule "innocent until proven guilty", you do not have anything PROVING Adolin was at the scene of the crime. All you have is motive and conjecture which alone is not enough for a conviction. Now if the knife did remain in Sadeus's eye, which it seems to be, and the knife is shown to be unique enough to be conclusively proven to be Adolin's (pointing out that he is missing his is not enough) or you locate the cut bloody cuffs then yes you have him dead to rights. But baring proving he is the owner of the murder weapon, or locating the bloody cuffs and proving they are his, you cannot find Adolin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 

 

edit: now having stated that, I agree that if Ialai uses her resources of spies and illegal means, then yes she will totally get him to reveal, or prove he did it. Just a LEGAL investigation would be unable to convict him based on what is presented

Edited July 5, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Falcon777]

If you ask me I think you guys are completely over analyzing this one particular issue. Is it reasonable that Adolin will get caught? Yes, there are clear and good arguments for it. Is it possible that he won't get caught? I think it is. Is THIS issue the greatest challenge facing the new Knights Radiant? Not by a long shot. The existence of the everstorm and the extreme number of new voidbringers that will pop up when the parshmen transform is easily of far greater concern than the one issue of Adolin murdering Sadeas and the kind of possible internal strife that might cause.

 

So, I'm going to talk about the other people.  

 

Kaladin:

Personally, I think that Kaladin has overcome a huge hump in his growth as a new Knight Radiant. The fact that he is willing to protect Elhokar because the king is "Dalinar's Tien," along with the fact that he just swore to protect even those he hates so long as it is right means that his character growth has been tremendous. Honestly, I think that Dalinar has already forgiven and forgotten Kaladin's mouthy attitude. They have more important things to deal with now and Kaladin has taken the necessary step away from what was causing him to have such a problem in the first place. He has acknowledged to himself that if he only protected those he wished to, it would mean nothing, which is of course why he said the third oath.

 

Shallan:

Now, the possible conflicts between Shallan and the others are far more likely to develop. I honestly think that Jasnah going to Urithiru is a when, not an if. Because of that, there is easily a chance for Shallan and Jasnah to come into conflict over the Ghostbloods. To be honest, I kind of would like to see this happen, if only to find out more of what the heck the Ghostbloods are trying to accomplish. That and since both Jasnah and Shallan have a spren/newly-forged-shardblade they could actually have a legitimate fight that could reveal whether or not elsecalling can be used in an efficient manner for a one-on-one battle.

 

Dalinar:

I personally think that Dalinar is going to have plenty to converse about with Jasnah, which I think is likely to lead to the two becoming closer, not further apart. Honestly, I think it's more likely that his relationship with Jasnah will not explode into conflict given the fact that he knows (and even accepts) that Honor is dead. And while his newly budding courtship with Navani may lead to some tension down the line, I really don't think that that relationship will cause anything more than that: tension. The ardentia may have had some power in the past and they still do hold sway over many people. But since the ardentia are not within the new order, any conflict that Dalinar has with them isn't internal, so not very pertinent to this topic.

 

Renarin:

Since the whole Adolin murdering Sadeas thing has been beaten into the earth's core, I'll ignore that part. However, I think that the original poster is completely ignoring the fact that Renarin was able to find out why he kept on freezing up and babbling during the battle: he bonded to a dead spren/shardblade. He was even outright told of the consequences of what that meant while within the presence of Shallan and Kaladin. Shallan now has a reason as to why Renarin acted the way he did, and it's a pretty good reason too. The likelyhood of tension, let alone actual conflict, developing between the two of them is ridiculously small. If it actually happens because of the events of the battle, I will personally be incredibly disappointed with Brandon. Now, if Renarin suddenly becomes whiny and is constantly nagging Shallan for whatever reason, then I could understand why Shallan would want to put him down hard. Or if Shallan suddenly started causing conflict between Dalinar and Adolin because of joining the ghostbloods or if she causes internal conflict between other people without a legitimate reason, I could understand if Renarin were to become angry or at least irritated with her. But the whole incident during the battle being a reason for conflict between the two is laughable at best.

 

Jasnah:

Awkwardness isn't the same thing as conflict. Hilarious at times, incredibly uncomfortable at others, but not the same thing. I doubt that her supposed death will cause conflict between anyone within the new order. It might, very briefly, cause Dalinar to have some suspicion of Shallan (presuming he doesn't know that Shallan has joined the ghostbloods and that it was they that sent the assassins after Jasnah). However, without any explicit reason for Shallan to be responsible, he's far more likely to chalk up her "not telling the truth" to simply be a symptom of her being a woman and not used to battle and violence.

 

Now, Jasnah's assassins is an entirely different can of worms. THAT could easily cause real conflict between her and Dalinar or her and Kaladin. Frankly, it could cause her to become isolated from ALL of the new Knights if any of them found out. However, Jasnah is a very meticulous person. It has also possibly been five years since Jasnah has employed her assassins. If so, then the possibility of anyone discovering her use of assassins (and subsequently the likely-hood of conflict over that) is a good bit smaller.

 

Jasnah is already a heretic to the Ardentia and there are even elements within it that have already tried to kill her. You don't get much more conflict than that. And frankly, that's not intra-order conflict, so that doesn't really build upon the idea that the greatest challenge facing the order is the members themselves.

 

Szeth:

First off, Szeth is NOT a skybreaker. He has made no oaths towards such and Nalan, his patron leader if you will, is specifically having people who have bonded with spren killed off. Only people that have bonded with spren can be Radiants, and even then that doesn't make one a Knight. So until Szeth has resolved that problem, Szeth's "new status" doesn't cause him to provide internal conflict within the order. His past, perhaps, but not his "new status." However, if he does bond with a spren then all such internal conflict theories are back on the table.

 

I suppose his continued existence could cause internal conflict, though it seems to me that it's more likely that people will unite to fight against him than argue of what to do about him, at least until he claims to be one of the order. However, the problem with that is that until he can surgebind, all anyone within the order has to do is say "prove it. Prove that you are a skybreaker." And then when he cannot since he no longer has surgebinding, they will likely attack him. His lack of possible radiant status makes him far less likely of a candidate for Dalinar to defend. And without Dalinar defending Szeth's status as a Knight Radiant, what is to keep the rest of them from either ignoring or attacking Szeth?

 

Lift:

Internal conflict? The rest of the order doesn't even know of her existence yet.

 

 

Ultimately, I personally don't think that the greatest problem facing the Knights Radiant is internal conflict. I believe that it will be the next challenge that Odium throws their way. That isn't to say that Odium could not then make it a personal goal of his to break down the Knights Radiant from within. There is still a lot that we don't know about the circumstances of the Recreance which will likely have a great impact upon the new order once that information is revealed. However, unless Odium makes it a personal and primary goal to completely split up the new order then I believe that whatever else he sends their way will be of greater consequence.

 

And no, I haven't forgotten about the vision where Tanavast states that Odium discovered that he could use man's hate against man. It just seems to me that he's already done that and it has borne him far greater fruits than the petty squabling that has so far happened between those of the new order: the recreance and the everstorm being the primary things I'm thinking of.

 

Just my two cents.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I don't know regarding the legal system of the Alethi, but it is my opinion based on modern day investigation, but removing forensics (since to my knowledge we have not see any sign of such existing in the book), then you do not have much of a case. All you have accomplished is call into question Adolin's where a bouts, and prove the Kholin soldiers are not valid witnesses/alibis. Under the rule "innocent until proven guilty", you do not have anything PROVING Adolin was at the scene of the crime. All you have is motive and conjecture which alone is not enough for a conviction. Now if the knife did remain in Sadeus's eye, which it seems to be, and the knife is shown to be unique enough to be conclusively proven to be Adolin's (pointing out that he is missing his is not enough) or you locate the cut bloody cuffs then yes you have him dead to rights. But baring proving he is the owner of the murder weapon, or locating the bloody cuffs and proving they are his, you cannot find Adolin guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. 

 

edit: now having stated that, I agree that if Ialai uses her resources of spies and illegal means, then yes she will totally get him to reveal, or prove he did it. Just a LEGAL investigation would be unable to convict him based on what is presented

 

I'm not sure why you quoted that post of mine, because it's not the one where I said it, but I didn't see it would be enough for a conviction in modern times, it would be enough to detain him, which then would be followed by more intense questioning, and further investigations into things. People are detained all the time without the evidence needed to convict. Then they get taken to this little room where the police officers tell them that they have all the evidence they need and it really would be better for everyone if they just confessed.

 

 

If you ask me I think you guys are completely over analyzing this one particular issue. Is it reasonable that Adolin will get caught? Yes, there are clear and good arguments for it. Is it possible that he won't get caught? I think it is. Is THIS issue the greatest challenge facing the new Knights Radiant? Not by a long shot. The existence of the everstorm and the extreme number of new voidbringers that will pop up when the parshmen transform is easily of far greater concern than the one issue of Adolin murdering Sadeas and the kind of possible internal strife that might cause.

 

So, I'm going to talk about the other people.

 

I don't think anyone was trying to imply that Adolin was the greatest threat, but this merely happened to be the topic everyone latched onto. 

 

 

 

 

 

Kaladin:

Personally, I think that Kaladin has overcome a huge hump in his growth as a new Knight Radiant. The fact that he is willing to protect Elhokar because the king is "Dalinar's Tien," along with the fact that he just swore to protect even those he hates so long as it is right means that his character growth has been tremendous. Honestly, I think that Dalinar has already forgiven and forgotten Kaladin's mouthy attitude. They have more important things to deal with now and Kaladin has taken the necessary step away from what was causing him to have such a problem in the first place. He has acknowledged to himself that if he only protected those he wished to, it would mean nothing, which is of course why he said the third oath.

 

 

Kaladin feeling like a new man, and overcoming his internal struggle does not erase his involvement with an assassination attempt on the king, or the fact that he actively hid information on a previous assassination attempt with which he was trusted to investigate. As soon as someone realizes that Moash is gone, there's going to be some questions that Kaladin has trouble answering, and if the truth comes out, there's going to be problems. (I had put this in the Dalinar section of my OP, but you didn't seem to address it anywhere.)

 

Then there's also the unresolved issues with Amaram. Throughout the whole book, Syl fixates on how "Aramaram is ruining" Kaladin. The end of the story arch in WoR was very unsatisfying for me, so I know it had to be gut wrenching for Kaladin.  Has he put together that Amaram is the high ranking lighteyes whose alliance Gavilar needed, which was the reasoning for not making Roshone a tenner?  There's no denying that the Kholin's are at the heart of the Roshone affair. That was part of the reason for Kaladin including himself in the plot to kill Elhokar. I think that if Amaram's trial is just as unsatisfying, or if he never makes it to trial as some on the forums have suggested, this is going to open those wounds with a vengeance. 

 

 

 

 

Dalinar:

 

I personally think that Dalinar is going to have plenty to converse about with Jasnah, which I think is likely to lead to the two becoming closer, not further apart. Honestly, I think it's more likely that his relationship with Jasnah will not explode into conflict given the fact that he knows (and even accepts) that Honor is dead. And while his newly budding courtship with Navani may lead to some tension down the line, I really don't think that that relationship will cause anything more than that: tension. The ardentia may have had some power in the past and they still do hold sway over many people. But since the ardentia are not within the new order, any conflict that Dalinar has with them isn't internal, so not very pertinent to this topic.

 

 

 

I think you fixated too much on my single use of the word 'internal politics.'  Public Relations is just as much a part of the workings of an organization as anything else, and to ignore that because it's an external force putting pressure on the internal workings was definitely not what I intended for this topic. It's a little unfair that you say the ardentia is not pertinent to this topic because they aren't within the order, and then argue later in your post that an external problem is the greatest challenge. Are the Ardentia part of the Knights Raidant? No. Is Vorinism part of the Knights Radiant? Absolutely. Shallan unconsciously draws glyphwards against evil when Jasnah talks heresy. The fact that Dalinar himself might align himself with Jasnah's heresy will cause even bigger problems. Case and point:

 

 

"One might find those questions dangerous, Your Majesty."

"I've already acquired some new enemies by welcoming you."

WoK Chapter 29 Errorgance

 

Jasnah is presumed dead, and has not been associated with the new Radiants, who already have a public relations bloodbath to wade through thanks the to the reputation of the former knights. Bringing Jasnah into the fold will bring all those old enemies to bear against them. I'm definitely assuming that there were more than the Ghostbloods after Jasnah.

 

 

Renarin:

Since the whole Adolin murdering Sadeas thing has been beaten into the earth's core, I'll ignore that part. However, I think that the original poster is completely ignoring the fact that Renarin was able to find out why he kept on freezing up and babbling during the battle: he bonded to a dead spren/shardblade. He was even outright told of the consequences of what that meant while within the presence of Shallan and Kaladin. Shallan now has a reason as to why Renarin acted the way he did, and it's a pretty good reason too. The likelyhood of tension, let alone actual conflict, developing between the two of them is ridiculously small. If it actually happens because of the events of the battle, I will personally be incredibly disappointed with Brandon. Now, if Renarin suddenly becomes whiny and is constantly nagging Shallan for whatever reason, then I could understand why Shallan would want to put him down hard. Or if Shallan suddenly started causing conflict between Dalinar and Adolin because of joining the ghostbloods or if she causes internal conflict between other people without a legitimate reason, I could understand if Renarin were to become angry or at least irritated with her. But the whole incident during the battle being a reason for conflict between the two is laughable at best.

 

I've already admitted that my Renarin section was definitely reaching as far as credibility, but other posters in the thread have brought up better conflicts concerning Renarin. Mainly that there might be some Blackthorn/Gavilar type conflict as Renarin comes into his new abilities and replaces Adolin as the golden child, and the public relations nightmare that is having someone who can see the future. That is a huge taboo in Vorinism; combine that with Jasnah's heresy, and the Ardentia might very well completely renounce the Kholin house. Who knows what kind of ramifications that could have. They could possibly back another highrprince to assume the throne, causing a civil war, but that is definitely a stretch for this type of conjecture. At the very least, it will increased tensions that have already been strained. 

 

 

Jasnah:

Awkwardness isn't the same thing as conflict. Hilarious at times, incredibly uncomfortable at others, but not the same thing. I doubt that her supposed death will cause conflict between anyone within the new order. It might, very briefly, cause Dalinar to have some suspicion of Shallan (presuming he doesn't know that Shallan has joined the ghostbloods and that it was they that sent the assassins after Jasnah). However, without any explicit reason for Shallan to be responsible, he's far more likely to chalk up her "not telling the truth" to simply be a symptom of her being a woman and not used to battle and violence.

 

Now, Jasnah's assassins is an entirely different can of worms. THAT could easily cause real conflict between her and Dalinar or her and Kaladin. Frankly, it could cause her to become isolated from ALL of the new Knights if any of them found out. However, Jasnah is a very meticulous person. It has also possibly been five years since Jasnah has employed her assassins. If so, then the possibility of anyone discovering her use of assassins (and subsequently the likely-hood of conflict over that) is a good bit smaller.

 

Jasnah is already a heretic to the Ardentia and there are even elements within it that have already tried to kill her. You don't get much more conflict than that. And frankly, that's not intra-order conflict, so that doesn't really build upon the idea that the greatest challenge facing the order is the members themselves.

 

 

Jasnah has kept things way too close to the chest. First of all, she's been bonded for five years. You don't think any of her family will be upset that she kept that secret from them for that long? Not only that, but had she been more open with what she was doing, and had included Navani, a good amount of trouble could have been saved. Jasnah was working on a project that she thought could mean the end of the world, and instead of trusting her mother (a renowned artifabrian, and brilliant mind) she trusts a teenage girl she has known for only a few months.

 

It's been five years since we saw Jasnah emply assassins. She had clearly been hiring them already before this, and considering Mraize's words about Jasnah killing a number of their membership, I'd say it's safe to assume she's still been using them. Also, Shallan's involvement with Mraize all but gurantees that, at the very least, Shallan will find out about Jasnah's proclivities towards using assassins. 

 

Again, with this post, I was trying to illustrate all of the baggage and problems that the Radiants have that could possibly put stress on the membership, and the order itself. Outside force yes, but it causes internal stress. 

 

 

Szeth:

First off, Szeth is NOT a skybreaker. He has made no oaths towards such and Nalan, his patron leader if you will, is specifically having people who have bonded with spren killed off. Only people that have bonded with spren can be Radiants, and even then that doesn't make one a Knight. So until Szeth has resolved that problem, Szeth's "new status" doesn't cause him to provide internal conflict within the order. His past, perhaps, but not his "new status." However, if he does bond with a spren then all such internal conflict theories are back on the table.

 

I suppose his continued existence could cause internal conflict, though it seems to me that it's more likely that people will unite to fight against him than argue of what to do about him, at least until he claims to be one of the order. However, the problem with that is that until he can surgebind, all anyone within the order has to do is say "prove it. Prove that you are a skybreaker." And then when he cannot since he no longer has surgebinding, they will likely attack him. His lack of possible radiant status makes him far less likely of a candidate for Dalinar to defend. And without Dalinar defending Szeth's status as a Knight Radiant, what is to keep the rest of them from either ignoring or attacking Szeth?

 

 

 

It seems highly likely Szeth is our Skybreaker.  I don't want to get into another debate over Nalan and the current Skybreakers, so here's some WoB that seem to point in that direction. 

 

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

 

 

 

 

Q:  Have we seen a Knight of all of the Orders yet?

A:  You have not seen a Knight of all of the orders yet I don't believe.

Q:  Even one that doesn't have a spren yet?

A:  I think you have met everybody.

 

 

If you disagree, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this. I interpret what I've seen as Szeth becoming a skybreaker.  I don't agree with your statement that he "lacks possible Radiant status," or that he won't be able to surgebind.  You'll notice on the first quote, Brandon specifically uses the words "by a member of one of the orders."  That's all I really want to say on the subject of his becoming or not becoming a Raidant.

 

As for the internal conflict that would cause, I don't think I can really expand more than what I said the first time. 

 

 

 

Lift:

Internal conflict? The rest of the order doesn't even know of her existence yet.

 

That's kind of a big conflict all in itself. How can she help against the desolations when they don't know she exists? It's hard to "Unite them" when you can't even find all of them. 

 

 

Ultimately, I personally don't think that the greatest problem facing the Knights Radiant is internal conflict. I believe that it will be the next challenge that Odium throws their way. That isn't to say that Odium could not then make it a personal goal of his to break down the Knights Radiant from within. There is still a lot that we don't know about the circumstances of the Recreance which will likely have a great impact upon the new order once that information is revealed. However, unless Odium makes it a personal and primary goal to completely split up the new order then I believe that whatever else he sends their way will be of greater consequence.

 

What else does he need to send their way? You've already mentioned the everstorm and the legions of Parshendi who will be transformed. Where we disagree is that I don't think this is going to be a very big conflict for the Radiants right away. There are no Parshmen in Urithiru (except Rlain) so they have a fortress to weather the storm in, and a very defensible fortress at that. The bigger problem, as I see it, is uniting the team, and gaining the influence to be able to use their power. Sure, there's going to be a LOT of voidbringers, but as of this moment, that's a bigger problem for the rest of the world than it is for the Radiants. They have their powers, their castle, and Shardblades, which really make any threat that we've seen so far small change for them as individuals and as a team. (I mean, the conflict for Kaladin was fighting another surgebinder-not Voidbringers, and for Shallan it was a race against time-not Voidbringers.)  

As for why they need to be a team, other than the constant mantra of 'unite them' coming from Dalinar's point of view, it definitely has to happen because of this death rattle, which also seems like they will face the challenge of the Voidbringers after they have become a team. 

 

"Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red."

-Collected: Jasachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments.

WoK chapter 9.

 

[maxal]

If you ask me I think you guys are completely over analyzing this one particular issue. Is it reasonable that Adolin will get caught? Yes, there are clear and good arguments for it. Is it possible that he won't get caught? I think it is. Is THIS issue the greatest challenge facing the new Knights Radiant? Not by a long shot. The existence of the everstorm and the extreme number of new voidbringers that will pop up when the parshmen transform is easily of far greater concern than the one issue of Adolin murdering Sadeas and the kind of possible internal strife that might cause.

 

We are not over analyzing it I will be an important plot. Everyone significant in Adolin's life now is a Radiant, how can his actions be of little consequences? It is a great issue because their oaths will be tried as they are forced to deal with someone they all love. Depending on how it is brought up, it could endanger the fragile unity of Alethkar and Dalinar's thin control over the highprinces. A broken Altehkar destroyed by internal petty struggle Dalinar is unable to quiet because it would mean prosecuting the son he loves may be a huge hindrance in their ability to effectively stop the voidbringers. Even if Dalinar decides to play hard and to severely punish his son, it will still impact the Radiants and their ability to fight back.

 

Adolin is the hell of a fighter, a good military tactician and a beloved commander. He may not be a Radiant, but right now, they sure as hell need him. They have NO ONE to take his place, to lead the armies, to strike first a the head of the pack, but him. Everyone else is either unsuitable or not as skilled. If he falls, than yes the Radiants are in deep trouble. Dalinar cannot take the lead in battles anymore, he has another role to play. Shallan has no battle knowledge nor does she have any military training whatsoever. Renarin is pretty useles when it comes to war: his role lay elsewhere. Kaladin a a good warrior, a good leader of his people, but he is not a war general. He is one to always protect, to take decisions in order to protect, not winning. Ergo, they need Adolin. The succession needs him as well. So yes, I would say whatever happens to him is extremely important to the Radiant.

 

It is also relevant because we are missing quite a few knights and Adolin could fill-out one of the spot, depending on how he deals with his issues or so many of us hope

 

As for the other people:

 

Kaladin: I feel we have finished the loop with Kaladin. He's come to peace with a huge part of himself at the end of WoR. I hope it will remain this way and that seeing his family again will help him grow some more, but please no more mopping grumpy Kal.

 

Shallan: Shallan has many conflicts facing her. She is in deep with her lies and she may struggle to find enough truth to progress as a Radiant. Her involvement with the Ghostblood may also be an issue with Jasnah, depending on how Shallan brings it up. I do not see her fighting Jasnah though... They may argue, they may disagree, but I think they both have too much respect for any struggle they may have to really come to blows. I believe they will make peace and work together.

 

Dalinar: I do not see any conflict with Dalinar regarding Jasnah. He'll be happy to see her again and to have another Radiant. Period. It appears they may have had a growing uncle-niece relationship that may be interesting to read. Seeing how Dalinar swoon over pathetic Elhokar, I am curious to see him interact with Jasnah. However, even if you don't like it, Dalinar's biggest issue in the next book will be Adolin. He will be face with a huge conflict: uphold his morality and the law before all even if it means losing his son or protect his son at all cost even if it threatens Galivar's dream.... He may have to come in term with his dead brother and finally grow away from his influence.

 

Renarin: I do not see anything happening between Shallan and Renarin. To me, that is a non-issue. They will most likely avoid each other. Period. Renarin biggest source of conflict will be Renarin. He needs to built up his self-confidence and realize his role does not lie in battle. He will need to become his own man, to move away from his brother's shadow and he will struggle with this. His relationship with is brother may also be trialed because of the said events and also because of his refusal to share his issues with him. I see him taking up more of a counseling role as the story unfolds and I believe his role in their brothers relationship may be reversed at some point. So far, Adolin has been the one taking care of Renarin: I think we may see the opposite as Adolin crashed hard. Renarin may be the one to pick the pieces up.

 

OK I am missing time to finish the others: baby is crying. I'll come back.

[A Joe in the Bush]

If you ask me I think you guys are completely over analyzing this one particular issue.

 

This is the 17th Shard. We spent 30 Pages discussing an Easter Egg in the Map. We over analyze Everything.

 

I also don't think we'll be seeing that much Conflict within the Knights Radiant, unless Szeth joins. The real conflict is going to Stem from Adolin. Not because of murdering Sadeas, but Because Renarin will no longer need him as much, and Shallan is now more important than him.

 

His relationship with is brother may also be trialed because of the said events and also because of his refusal to share his issues with him. I see him taking up more of a counseling role as the story unfolds and I believe his role in their brothers relationship may be reversed at some point. So far, Adolin has been the one taking care of Renarin: I think we may see the opposite as Adolin crashed hard. Renarin may be the one to pick the pieces up.

 

Adolin has always needed Renarin, as someone he looks after, defends and helps. But now that Renarin knows why he can't fight (Bonded to a dead blade) and is more respected by his father and others, he will gain in confidence, eventually being able to stand by himself.

 

Then there's Shallan and Adolin. Adolin went from being casually engaged to an unimportant Lady from Jah Kevad, to being engaged to possibly the most important woman in the World. (At least until Jasnah reaches Urithiru.) He's going to be feeling awfully unimportant for a long time. (Until the armise of Voidbringers lay siege to Urithiru).

 

As for the Murder investigation. He'll get caught, then pardoned by the King.

 

Just my 3 Cents.

[Pathfinder]

I'm not sure why you quoted that post of mine, because it's not the one where I said it, but I didn't see it would be enough for a conviction in modern times, it would be enough to detain him, which then would be followed by more intense questioning, and further investigations into things. People are detained all the time without the evidence needed to convict. Then they get taken to this little room where the police officers tell them that they have all the evidence they need and it really would be better for everyone if they just confessed. 

Exactly, and like in those fine crime dramas, the person being investigated can say "you got nothing on me, so you have to let me go". The police can hold you 48 hours max without cause. The evidence mentioned is enough to bring Adolin in, but not keep him detained longer than two days. If Adolin breaks and confesses, then yes. But if he keeps his mouth shut, he goes free. 

[Falcon777]

I do suppose that public relations are important, given that the new order is comprised of less than all of the orders being represented by a single member, let alone the massive numbers from the times of the Desolations. However, you can't really be surprised that I would not include that in my post:

"There's certainly a lot of problems that the new Knights Radiant have to reconcile, but what is the biggest challenge facing them?

I believe it to be themselves.

The Knights Radiant, as they are forming now, may shatter before they can become a cohesive unit. Internal politics and squabbling could be their undoing long before they need to face any of those challenges. Let's take a brief look at each Radiant to see what problems we can expect in the next book."

 

This implies internal conflict only, even if that wasn't your intention. To be fair, you still make a good point that external forces are relevant, so I won't push it farther than that.

 

As to the problem with Adolin (specifically at Maxal): YES, it does exist. There's a great likelyhood that he will be caught, and I would imagine it's fairly certain that Brandon will at least cover the consequences of Adolin's actions in his next book, so the point is relevant. I was just pointing out the fact that you and others have debated over the chances of Adolin being caught for over two pages when there are other, quite relevant possible conflicts that you all were ignoring for a while. That's what I mean by over analyzing. Since finishing my own run through of WoR, the possibilities of the consequences of his actions has helped to keep my apetite wet for more stormlight archive books (among many other reasons, of course). But given how you and the others have run this into the ground, it's turned sour for me. Now I'm not even looking forward as much to what Brandon will actually do with this issue.

 

In any case, I'll go over your reply, Trevor.

 

Kaladin:

I'll give you the fact that Moash's disappearance could cause problems. But Kaladin was willing to stand up alone against two shardbearers (Moash being one of them) without any powers at the time. If Dalinar questions him on the subject, I have a feeling that Kaladin will likely be truthful and that Dalinar will be willing to forgive Kaladin given Kaladin's new stance towards the king and his honorable (if seemingly foolish) choice to defend Elhokar. I figured that that was just understood, but it's good to mention it.

The issue with Amaram is still somewhat unresolved, but Kaladin's willingness (if perhaps begrudgingly) to defend people that he hates does gives him the possibility to overcome his hatred. To be honest, the ending of WoR was VERY satisfying for me. There are a few issues that Kaladin still has to face, but willingness to defend people he hates completely flies in the face of his hatred towards the lighteyes, especially those that have mistreated him (so long as protecting them is right, of course). Also, Dalinar personally confronted Amaram while in Kaladin's presence. It doesn't fix the Amaram issue, but it should hopefully at least keep Kaladin from continuing his prejudice and anger towards Dalinar. So...yeah, I personally think that Kaladin is (mostly) past his greatest problem.

 

Dalinar:

As stated before, public relations still is relevant, and in a manner of speaking Dalinar is the face of the new order. The fact that he's a bondsmith means he definitely has a lot on his plate, but he's also the one most equipped to dealing with those particular issues (at least, if peoples' speculations about Bondsmiths being able to bring people together via surgebinding is true). While public relations are still important, the politics of the world are very much going topsy turvy right now. Multiple new leaders are emerging in different countries and the capital of Alethkar is already in chaos without any of the new order being involved at all. Plus, there's the everstorm that could wreck havoc with politics as it stands right now. The fact that the members of the new order have magical powers automatically places them in a position to take and keep political power. I think that a lot of people will be looking for stability in this time, and the fact that Dalinar is a highprince with unmoving principles makes him and his political faction (whatever shape it is in) a very appealing place to be, even if people think he is crazy. Even if he makes them do things they don't want. Perhaps...just perhaps even if he goes public with his knowledge about Tanavast being dead, though I think Dalinar is too wise to reveal that bit of information.

 

Vorinism is still practiced, but Dalinar and Shallan are too logical in their thinking (if not their actions) to let vorinism get in the way of them becoming who they need to be. If Dalinar does side with Jasnah and it causes problems, I think that that would be a great chance for Brandon to showcase Bondsmithing in action. I could easily see Dalinar giving a great speech with many logical points and many moving words. Something to possibly look forward to, I suppose.

 

Renarin:

The posibility of him replacing Adolin in importance is there, though if Renarin follows the ways of the old Truthwatchers it's a little less likely; they were the least reactive and proactive of all of the orders, observing more than anything else. The renunciation of the Kholin house is in fact a likely thing to happen should Renarin go around and state that he can see the future (again, somewhat unlikely given that he is a fairly shy and introverted person, though of course not without courage)...but has he really proven that he can do that? Aren't his surges as a Truthwatcher Illumination and Progression? I don't mean to poopoo what you are saying (and I could very well be completely ignorant on this matter given that I don't travel these boards very much), but I frankly don't see him having that ability. The ability to see the future is supposed to be incredibly limited for someone holding a Shard of Adonalsium. I can't imagine how limited it would be for someone who doesn't actually hold even hold one tenth of the power of a full Shard, let alone someone as comparitively small as a Truthwatcher.

 

Otherwise, there in fact could be some tension between Renarin and Adolin, though Adolin seems like a pretty good sport to me. He likes competition (in at least dueling), so I could just as easily see this as a way for the two of them to bond even more closely.

 

Jasnah:

Indeed. I think that of all of the new Knights Radiant, Jasnah is the most likely to just do things as she wishes and believes simply because of how often she has been right in the past. The reason that Jasnah took so long to return to the physical realm may not necessarily be that it took that long for her to heal. In fact, given Wit and Jasnah's conversation about what the highspren know, she seemed to take her sweet time questioning them. We don't know exactly when she returns, but from what I understand, it is in fact after the battle of the everstorm. So yeah, at the very least Navani is going to be upset with Jasnah for a while. Jasnah's official stance as a heritic and her ability to soulcast has already been explored as a reason for conflict between her and the ardentia. It is without a doubt that SOMEONE is going to speak up in derision/dissention about Jasnah being one of the new order, even if she proves her capabilities in public.

 

So yeah, Jasnah and the public relations nightmares she's likely to continue to cause (not to mention any internal tension between her and Shallan, or really her and anyone) is definitely something that Dalinar will have to overcome. I say him simply because no one else seems to really be all that interested in bringing people together in unity to fight against Odium.

 

It's a real crying shame that the order I happen to like the most because of their surgebinding abilities is represented by someone who is such a...by someone who is so....that.   Yeah.

 

Szeth:

Don't get me wrong. Szeth is still easily the most likely candidate to actually become a skybreaker, and I honestly think he will become a true skybreaker. His devotion to his own personal rules literally goes to the point that he was willing to accept madness instead of breaking them. Special sword or not, though, he isn't one yet. And given the fact that surgebinding is pretty integral to our new radiants, I have a hard time believing that any of the rest of the order will accept him as a skybreaker until he actually does some surgebinding. Even then they will still have a hard time accepting him, which I have already stated.

 

On the topic of his sword, though, I wonder if Szeth is still capable of absorbing stormlight? Vasher was only able to actually draw Nightblood out of its sheath without immediately dieing because he had a store of breath/investiture. Without such a store, which in this case would be stormlight, Szeth is still a good bit crippled compared to when he had the honorblade. Interesting to see where that goes.

 

I do suppose that Szeth could possibly cause problems for the new Knights Radiant if he went around doing what he felt was justice and claiming he had the authority to do so because he was a skybreaker. THAT is something I can easily see happening (and is totally a cliche,  though I suppose it's such a useful one that Brandon very well might be willing to use it).

 

Lift:

Her lack of connection to the rest of the order is in fact a problem, just as it is a problem that we have yet to have a representative for the Stonewards, Willshapers, and Dustbringers. However, that problem could be (temporarily) mitigated by having more people become Knights of the orders we already know of.

 

Kaladin's first oath as a Knight Radiant is the same as everyone elses. However, his second oath, and first unique one to the Windrunners, basically calls him to not stay within Urithiru (hence his plan to leave the city). At the very least it requires him to try to bring as many people to the city as he can. So long as the everstorm doesn't immediately destroy everyone else in the world, Kaladin and all other Windrunners that come after him will have a call to keep on going back out of their fortress, thus making the large Parshendi numbers an immediate concern. Perhaps not a concern for the rest of the order, but Dalinar also doesn't seem like the kind of person to hide in his fortress if there is something he can do to help all the people not there. Shallan probably has enough compassion to try to do something, though she doesn't really have the movement capabilities to go out at any time. Renarin's personality and the history of the order he represents does preclude him from being involved a whole lot with the Parshendi, though I suppose we'll have to wait and see on how much he'll follow the precedent of his predecessors. Jasnah has the capability to Elsecall, so if that surge is shown to be able to take someone anywhere, then the parshendi/voidbringer problem is more or less relevant to her (and, by extension, the rest of the order) depending on how much she chooses to get directly involved on the frontlines, however they form. Szeth isn't living within Urithiru, so depending on how much you consider him to be one of the new order, the voidbringer problem very well may be his greatest to deal with at the moment. Lift has only been given a single interlude, so I feel as if I have to lump her with the rest of the proto-radiants not connected and living in Urithiru: the voidbringers are of far greater concern to them than internal strife and public relations of the new order.

 

So, yeah, I still feel like the voidbringer issue is greater...though I can understand how you believe that it doesn't have the same amount of immediacy as the lack of unity that the new order has.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Upvote. I have absolutely no problems with what you just posted.

Edit: Although we feel very differently about Jasnah

Edited July 5, 2014 by EMTrevor

[maxal]

This is the 17th Shard. We spent 30 Pages discussing an Easter Egg in the Map. We over analyze Everything.

 

I also don't think we'll be seeing that much Conflict within the Knights Radiant, unless Szeth joins. The real conflict is going to Stem from Adolin. Not because of murdering Sadeas, but Because Renarin will no longer need him as much, and Shallan is now more important than him.

 

Agree. We discuss it a lot because there is a lot to discuss about. And there are thousands of ways Brandon could make the story go, so it is fun to speculate. And there is also the fact Adolin is a fun character to discuss about, so much going on. All of the others main characters are pretty much set at the end of WoR, except for him.

 

 

Adolin has always needed Renarin, as someone he looks after, defends and helps.

 

It is hard to tell in their relationship who needs who the most... Renarin needs Adolin to take care for him, to believe in him, to give him confidence, to support him. Adolin needs Renarin to listen to him, to support him, to just be his friend and confident. Now, to which extends does Renarin need to be protected and to which extends does Adolin need an ear? I think we are about to find out.

 

As to the problem with Adolin (specifically at Maxal): YES, it does exist. There's a great likelyhood that he will be caught, and I would imagine it's fairly certain that Brandon will at least cover the consequences of Adolin's actions in his next book, so the point is relevant. I was just pointing out the fact that you and others have debated over the chances of Adolin being caught for over two pages when there are other, quite relevant possible conflicts that you all were ignoring for a while. That's what I mean by over analyzing. Since finishing my own run through of WoR, the possibilities of the consequences of his actions has helped to keep my apetite wet for more stormlight archive books (among many other reasons, of course). But given how you and the others have run this into the ground, it's turned sour for me. Now I'm not even looking forward as much to what Brandon will actually do with this issue.

 

Perhaps, but it is a fun discussion...  It can never be run in the ground as there are too many ramifications... Think of the "Who killed Asmodean" threads that lasted for a decade before Brandon finally admitted in the glossary it was Graendal... Talk about a horse beaten to death, but it was fun.

 

Besides, we have discussed other characters as well lately. We have discussed the whole Amaram/Kaladin issue and the implication of Dalinar into this mess. This was totally free of any mention of Sadeas's murder.

 

We are not ignoring the other conflicts, the conversation just spread on that one... It has a life on its own Someone writes "murder", "Sadeas" and "Adolin" and the rumor machine gets launched again. I can plead guilty for this as I love this discussion , but its OK, we can talk about other conflicts for a while, not tonight though. It is late here.

[A Joe in the Bush]

What if Nale comes for Adolin, and Kaladin fights him?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Given the current surgebinder situation, I'd say the opposite is more likely, at least until Adolin jumps on the Kholin train and nabs himself a spren.

[Aleksiel]

I find it hard to believe Dalinar would interfere with the investigation. With the man he is, and the relationship he had with Sadeas before Gavilar's death, he might head the investigation himself. I would think these "matters of principle" would not mean nearly as much once it's murder and not attempted murder. That kind of resistance would be a political nightmare. It would pretty much validate any lie Sadeas was telling, turn him into a martyr, and make it seem like a political assassination.

 

I have hard time believing Ialai would agree to Dalinar leading the investigation. Actually, I don't see it happening and here's why: Dalinar is/will trial Sadeas's best man - Amaram - and now Sadeas himself is gone. Looks like the Kholins intentionally are destroying house Sadeas, so I don't think any Kholin will be allowed to participate in the investigation.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I have hard time believing Ialai would agree to Dalinar leading the investigation. Actually, I don't see it happening and here's why: Dalinar is/will trial Sadeas's best man - Amaram - and now Sadeas himself is gone. Looks like the Kholins intentionally are destroying house Sadeas, so I don't think any Kholin will be allowed to participate in the investigation.

This seems contradictory to what you say here:

 

 

Going directly to Adolin would be a great insult, I'm doubtful if it'll be socially acceptable. Who would dare to point a finger at the son of (probably) the most powerful men in Roshar? Lighteyes are about appearance and reputation and Adolin's is spotless so far. Considering their stereotypes, I'm doubtful anyone except Ialai and Dalinar would dare to suggest this.

 

Sadeas's men (and wife) would be denied the right to question Kholin men like last time. There's no acting Highprince of Information, any Kholin men taking the investigation would be ridiculous and no doubt rejected. Who'd take the investigation and would do that person think of Adolin and Sadeas's murder? Kind of hard to find a neutral highprince for this job. Surely Ialai would be against any ally of Dalinar taking over it and Dalinar wouldn't let Sadeas's men in his camp questioning his men; it's a matter of principle. 

 

They can't both have power over the investigation. If Dalinar and his aren't in charge, they can't very well refuse to let his men be questioned. You're also making a point that supports mine: Dalinar's men are the most likely suspects, and there's no one they won't be questioned, especially Adolin, who already publicly accused Sadeas at the match, and requested to duel him for justice. 

[Aleksiel]

This seems contradictory to what you say here:

 

 

They can't both have power over the investigation. If Dalinar and his aren't in charge, they can't very well refuse to let his men be questioned. You're also making a point that supports mine: Dalinar's men are the most likely suspects, and there's no one they won't be questioned, especially Adolin, who already publicly accused Sadeas at the match, and requested to duel him for justice. 

 

It's not a contradiction, because the Kholins will be the main suspects and I simply think noone will openly dare accuse Adolin at first and most people will think someone of the Kholin soldiers did it.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Even if people think that, the first place to go in that situation is their commanding officer, who is Adolin. Adolin should know what patrols were responsible for what parts of the tower at what times. They come to talk to him, and he can either reveal that he was on the same level as Sadeas, or keep it a secret. Then, the men get questioned, and if he kept it a secret, the men will reveal he was there. This includes Adolin in the list of suspects by means now as well, not just motive, since he's in the same area as the soldiers who could possibly have committed the crime. The other scouting parties I would assume would all be able to vouch for none of their members being alone, at the very least they would use the buddy system, and that would leave Adolin as the only one without an alibi, unless the soldiers lie for him, but I've already illustrated the problem with that. The chances of a group of men all lying in the same way are very unlikely.  

[maxal]

Given the current surgebinder situation, I'd say the opposite is more likely, at least until Adolin jumps on the Kholin train and nabs himself a spren.

 

Wild speculation.... What if Adolin gets send to Azir as an emissary (Azir being the only nation that responded positively to Dalinar's call so it is safe to assume someone will go there and since Adolin committed murder, Dalinar may see fit to send him away for a short while) only to stumble on our favorite trash mouthed thief being pursued by Darkness? He could then decide, on his own, to try to take him down. After all, protecting a little girl certainly fits within his character.

 

Then you have a Nale-Adolin clash down, but not because of the murder, although Adolin would be seriously under-power to fight Nale..... but maybe he'll find a way.

 

This could also serve to bring Lift together with the main crew.

 

 

Kaladin:

I'll give you the fact that Moash's disappearance could cause problems. But Kaladin was willing to stand up alone against two shardbearers (Moash being one of them) without any powers at the time. If Dalinar questions him on the subject, I have a feeling that Kaladin will likely be truthful and that Dalinar will be willing to forgive Kaladin given Kaladin's new stance towards the king and his honorable (if seemingly foolish) choice to defend Elhokar. I figured that that was just understood, but it's good to mention it.

 

I disagree with some of this. Kaladin made several mistakes in WoR. Let's summarize.

 

1) He purposely hid the presence of a known would-be assassin within his men because he considered his loyalty to the bridgemen surpassed the oath of protection he made to Dalinar.

 

2) He let himself being drawn into a plot to assassinate the king and he nearly got through with it.

 

3) He gave out SHARDS to a known would-be assassin. He knew his man was not loyal and was plotting to kill the king and he still insisted the shards should go to him.

 

Now, there was a murder attempt and Moash has run away with his very valuable shards.

 

Honestly, if Dalinar ever finds out about this, it would cause a major rift in their relationship. I just cannot see Dalinar forgiving straight away Kaladin for all of the above. Kal was the head of his guard and he betrayed his trust. He proved he was willing to protect his men to the expand of the safety of the Kohlin's household. He should have reported Moash to Dalinar the moment he had suspicion. He could have argued Moash was misguided and needed to be convinced to act otherwise, he could have tried to protect Moash without endangering the royal family.

 

And how about giving shards to Moash knowing full well what he intended to do?

 

How would Adolin react to this? He trusted Kal. He gave shards to Kal and accepted seeing Kal gave them to Moash. Now both Moash and shards are gone.

 

Sincerely, if Dalinar closes the matter with a pat on the back, I would be sincerely disappointed. I agree Kal decided to protect the king in the end, but in the process he proved to be untrustworthy. He proved to be exactly the man Adolin though him to be at first.

 

 

Dalinar:

As stated before, public relations still is relevant, and in a manner of speaking Dalinar is the face of the new order. The fact that he's a bondsmith means he definitely has a lot on his plate, but he's also the one most equipped to dealing with those particular issues (at least, if peoples' speculations about Bondsmiths being able to bring people together via surgebinding is true). While public relations are still important, the politics of the world are very much going topsy turvy right now. Multiple new leaders are emerging in different countries and the capital of Alethkar is already in chaos without any of the new order being involved at all. Plus, there's the everstorm that could wreck havoc with politics as it stands right now. The fact that the members of the new order have magical powers automatically places them in a position to take and keep political power. I think that a lot of people will be looking for stability in this time, and the fact that Dalinar is a highprince with unmoving principles makes him and his political faction (whatever shape it is in) a very appealing place to be, even if people think he is crazy. Even if he makes them do things they don't want. Perhaps...just perhaps even if he goes public with his knowledge about Tanavast being dead, though I think Dalinar is too wise to reveal that bit of information.

 

Vorinism is still practiced, but Dalinar and Shallan are too logical in their thinking (if not their actions) to let vorinism get in the way of them becoming who they need to be. If Dalinar does side with Jasnah and it causes problems, I think that that would be a great chance for Brandon to showcase Bondsmithing in action. I could easily see Dalinar giving a great speech with many logical points and many moving words. Something to possibly look forward to, I suppose.

 

I suppose vorinism will be a source of conflict at some point, but I do not see it as being major, not in the next book. Our main crew have never given such things much thought with the exception of Jasnah.

 

Apart from dealing with his wayward son, Dalinar other sources of conflict will be learning to be "guiding", to be a politician, a thing he is not. He is trying, but he is struggling and I believe he will struggle some more. He will also have to deal with his crew of unusual Radiant.

 

He has:

 

1) an ex-slave now turned hero that managed to betray his trust by nearly killing the knig

2) a Veden girl from a destitute family, betrothed to his rebellious son and heir, who saved the day on the plain, but who is secretly playing many hands at the same time.

3) his younger son, a reserved, introvert boy who never managed to find his place in society. He has evolved all his life in his brother's shadow and whereas he now surpasses him in status, he still lack his charisma and leading aptitude.

 

Quite a lot of work to make them work as a cohesive unit, indeed.

 

 

Renarin:

The posibility of him replacing Adolin in importance is there, though if Renarin follows the ways of the old Truthwatchers it's a little less likely; they were the least reactive and proactive of all of the orders, observing more than anything else. The renunciation of the Kholin house is in fact a likely thing to happen should Renarin go around and state that he can see the future (again, somewhat unlikely given that he is a fairly shy and introverted person, though of course not without courage)...but has he really proven that he can do that? Aren't his surges as a Truthwatcher Illumination and Progression? I don't mean to poopoo what you are saying (and I could very well be completely ignorant on this matter given that I don't travel these boards very much), but I frankly don't see him having that ability. The ability to see the future is supposed to be incredibly limited for someone holding a Shard of Adonalsium. I can't imagine how limited it would be for someone who doesn't actually hold even hold one tenth of the power of a full Shard, let alone someone as comparitively small as a Truthwatcher.

 

Otherwise, there in fact could be some tension between Renarin and Adolin, though Adolin seems like a pretty good sport to me. He likes competition (in at least dueling), so I could just as easily see this as a way for the two of them to bond even more closely.

 

Renarin's status will be put above that of his brother. He is a Radiant. His main issue will be to start acting as one. He will also have to come forward with what he can do, to his family, as least, which may cause some conflict. Adolin has expressed an uneasiness over his father's having vision and potentially madly writing glyphs on the wall... How will he react knowing it was Renarin all along? Their brother-brother relationship will see some straining in the next book. Adolin is going in a bad place, Renarin is going into an unknown place that scares him, how will they meet in the middle?

 

 

Jasnah:

Indeed. I think that of all of the new Knights Radiant, Jasnah is the most likely to just do things as she wishes and believes simply because of how often she has been right in the past. The reason that Jasnah took so long to return to the physical realm may not necessarily be that it took that long for her to heal. In fact, given Wit and Jasnah's conversation about what the highspren know, she seemed to take her sweet time questioning them. We don't know exactly when she returns, but from what I understand, it is in fact after the battle of the everstorm. So yeah, at the very least Navani is going to be upset with Jasnah for a while. Jasnah's official stance as a heritic and her ability to soulcast has already been explored as a reason for conflict between her and the ardentia. It is without a doubt that SOMEONE is going to speak up in derision/dissention about Jasnah being one of the new order, even if she proves her capabilities in public.

 

So yeah, Jasnah and the public relations nightmares she's likely to continue to cause (not to mention any internal tension between her and Shallan, or really her and anyone) is definitely something that Dalinar will have to overcome. I say him simply because no one else seems to really be all that interested in bringing people together in unity to fight against Odium.

 

It's a real crying shame that the order I happen to like the most because of their surgebinding abilities is represented by someone who is such a...by someone who is so....that.   Yeah.

 

Jasnah has been a heretic for a decade and she has never endangered nor threatened her family's rule. I do not see that as an issue. She is a respected scholar and the ardents may be relived to see she was using a false soulcaster to begin with.

[Aleksiel]

Even if people think that, the first place to go in that situation is their commanding officer, who is Adolin. Adolin should know what patrols were responsible for what parts of the tower at what times. They come to talk to him, and he can either reveal that he was on the same level as Sadeas, or keep it a secret. Then, the men get questioned, and if he kept it a secret, the men will reveal he was there. This includes Adolin in the list of suspects by means now as well, not just motive, since he's in the same area as the soldiers who could possibly have committed the crime. The other scouting parties I would assume would all be able to vouch for none of their members being alone, at the very least they would use the buddy system, and that would leave Adolin as the only one without an alibi, unless the soldiers lie for him, but I've already illustrated the problem with that. The chances of a group of men all lying in the same way are very unlikely.  

 

Though I agree Adolin will likely become a suspect, that's just one more reason against Dalinar leading the investigation. We know he's a man of honor, but I simply don't see Ialai or other highranked lighteyes agree the man, whose soldiers and son are primary suspects, to lead the investigation. 

[maxal]

Even if people think that, the first place to go in that situation is their commanding officer, who is Adolin. Adolin should know what patrols were responsible for what parts of the tower at what times. They come to talk to him, and he can either reveal that he was on the same level as Sadeas, or keep it a secret. Then, the men get questioned, and if he kept it a secret, the men will reveal he was there. This includes Adolin in the list of suspects by means now as well, not just motive, since he's in the same area as the soldiers who could possibly have committed the crime. The other scouting parties I would assume would all be able to vouch for none of their members being alone, at the very least they would use the buddy system, and that would leave Adolin as the only one without an alibi, unless the soldiers lie for him, but I've already illustrated the problem with that. The chances of a group of men all lying in the same way are very unlikely.  

 

Adolin would not lie. He would tell the truth, mostly. He would admit he was on the same level, he would admit he may have wandered of, but not by much. He would deny having been near to or seeing Sadeas, but he would not pretend he was with the main group all along. In fact, his intention was to pretend in was in the same area as them, not with them as he wasn't. My guess is he wandered of quite far on his own. Basically, he would just omit the part where he was near Sadeas which would not be, technically, a lie and it wouldn't contradict any story his men may tell.

 

Lying just does not fit Adolin. Try to imagine Dalinar lying, but in worst as Adolin has much less of a filter than Dalinar. Horrible. If asked directly, I think Adolin may have issues denying it in a convincing manner. If the person asking turns out being Dalinar or Renarin, he will most likely babbled the whole thing out.

[maxal]

Though I agree Adolin will likely become a suspect, that's just one more reason against Dalinar leading the investigation. We know he's a man of honor, but I simply don't see Ialai or other highranked lighteyes agree the man, whose soldiers and son are primary suspects, to lead the investigation. 

 

They most likely ask someone more neutral such as Sebarial.............. Think of Sebarial who has a fondness for stray cats finding out Adolin is a prime suspect... Would that put Adolin in the "stray cats" basket or not?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

My main point was, whether he lies or not, he's quickly going to end up high on suspects list, with one of the weakest alibis.

[maxal]

My main point was, whether he lies or not, he's quickly going to end up high on suspects list, with one of the weakest alibis.

 

True. I agree, but without any solid proof, Dalinar will never let anyone get within a arm distance of his son. He may ask Adolin about it though and Adolin would most likely tell the truth and now what? Once Dalinar learns what really happened? What does he do with it?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I guess I just don't understand how Dalinar gets to stop the murder investigation from moving forward if he's not in charge of it. If he actively resists the investigation, he destroys his reputation that he's been building for himself since Gavilar's death, and it will drive the other Highprinces away from him, especially if it's later revealed that Adolin is in fact the killer. 

[Pathfinder]

So fun thought I just had. If Jasnah shows up before Adolin being suspect as the murderer is common knowledge, but is confided that he did in fact do it, I could totally see her effectively turning the murder from a reputation killer to a reputation booster. The Kholin's are finally on board with the way things are done. Sadeus just played the game and lost. The voidbringers are the bigger problem, get in line or else. Hell doesn't even have to be Jasnah, I think Navani could do just as good job if not better. Since there isn't evidence enough to convict Adolin, then it remains a rumor and solidifies their power further because they get away with it. Of course there still would be the emotional issue among the family between Dalinar and Adolin, but if played correctly by Jasnah or Navani, I do not think it would be a rep killer at all

[Fifth of Daybreak]

So fun thought I just had. If Jasnah shows up before Adolin being suspect as the murderer is common knowledge, but is confided that he did in fact do it, I could totally see her effectively turning the murder from a reputation killer to a reputation booster. The Kholin's are finally on board with the way things are done. Sadeus just played the game and lost. The voidbringers are the bigger problem, get in line or else. Hell doesn't even have to be Jasnah, I think Navani could do just as good job if not better. Since there isn't evidence enough to convict Adolin, then it remains a rumor and solidifies their power further because they get away with it. Of course there still would be the emotional issue among the family between Dalinar and Adolin, but if played correctly by Jasnah or Navani, I do not think it would be a rep killer at all

 

 

"Get in line or else" is the exact opposite of what Dalinar has stood for and changed himself into being since Gavilar's death. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say the Kholin's are finally on board with the way things are done. The whole point of the duel with Sadeas was to avoid this kind of situation, and prove the Kholin's are better than that, and are a family worth uniting under. If anything, his death, and a reaction from the Kholin's like that, could turn Sadeas into a martyr, and might even give a spark of legitimacy to his otherwise completely unfounded stories he was going to spread about Urithiru. Sadeas was worth more alive, as it's hard to argue with results. Dead at the hand of Kholin makes him seem a legitimate threat that was dealt with. 

[Pathfinder]

"Get in line or else" is the exact opposite of what Dalinar has stood for and changed himself into being since Gavilar's death. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say the Kholin's are finally on board with the way things are done. The whole point of the duel with Sadeas was to avoid this kind of situation, and prove the Kholin's are better than that, and are a family worth uniting under. If anything, his death, and a reaction from the Kholin's like that, could turn Sadeas into a martyr, and might even give a spark of legitimacy to his otherwise completely unfounded stories he was going to spread about Urithiru. Sadeas was worth more alive, as it's hard to argue with results. Dead at the hand of Kholin makes him seem a legitimate threat that was dealt with. 

Not totally. Dalinar said himself he spent long enough trying to get everyone to act honorably by example, he would begin to make them. He then sent Adolin to fighting shardbearers so once he had most of the shards, he could then make them listen, and give the shards out to who he decided. Hoid stated in another lifetime Dalinar would be considered a tyrant. As to finally on board with the way things are done, is the politicking and maneuvering Alethi society expects of you. Much like how Jasnah was acting in her past view section. It is why even when Sadeus blantantly tried to kill Dalinar, the only thing the other highprinces thought was how poor form it was that Sadeus didn't succeed. To the other highprinces it isn't who lives best, it is who gets the best toys/most power. It probably won't happen, but I could totally see Navani and Jasnah at the very least suggesting it, or doing it anyway while Dalinar opposes it. One could also argue that they could convince Dalinar that it would help keep everyone united. Just like how Dalinar didn't confront Sadeus about his betrayal because it would mean civil war, the Kholin family wouldn't push the matter to prevent fracturing. Dalinar has seen the consequences of half measures. Now with the voidbringers a reality, can't really take time for dissent amongst each other. Must be unified against a common enemy at any cost.