The biggest challenge facing the new Knights Radiant

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

The world is trying to come to an end...The Everstorm has arrived, and is transforming the world's Parshmen into Stormform Voidbringers. Taravangian seeks to unite the world under his own rule, and it appears he believes the new Knights Radiant to be an obstacle to that path. The Ghostbloods have already attempted assassination against one of them, and seeks to corrupt another. The Sons of Honor have taken the man who refers to himself as Taln, and will soon be a part of Urithiru. Riots in Kholinar, a plague in the Purelake, the Skybreakers executing proto radiants. There's certainly a lot of problems that the new Knights Radiant have to reconcile, but what is the biggest challenge facing them?

I believe it to be themselves.

The Knights Radiant, as they are forming now, may shatter before they can become a cohesive unit. Internal politics and squabbling could be their undoing long before they need to face any of those challenges. Let's take a brief look at each Radiant to see what problems we can expect in the next book.

The Windrunner-Kaladin

At the end of WoR, Kaladin seems to have a much tighter grip on his own problems, but that isn't to say that he lacks for conflict. First, Kaladin is heading back to Hearthstone, which could stir up feelings about Roshone, who is one of the only sources of unresolved feelings for Kaladin. Assuming that he maintains his self-control, and doesn't decide Roshone would function better as a punching bag, It could still cause problems-with Dalinar. During the prison visit, it is revealed that Dalinar is the reason that Roshone came to Hearthstone. It wouldn't take much of a leap to place all the blame at Dalinar's feet. The reason Kaladin isn't a surgeon. The reason Tien was conscripted and died. The reason Kaladin ended up killing Helaran. The reason Amaram killed Kaladin's men. The reason that Amaram is still alive and plotting. The reason Kaladin became a slave. The list goes on.

Notable quote: "Though it seems that such mercy often ends up serving the cousins of powerful lighteyes, and rarely someone lowly."

The Lightweaver-Shallan

Shallan is something of a Wild Card for the new Knights Radiant. Unlike Kaladin and Dalinar, she has no official position in the Alethi government, nor will she accept one IMO. So at the end of the book, Shallan is left with a choice of how to handle the Ghostbloods, who is going to deliver her brothers to her safely, and is owed a debt by her family. She also got quite a bit chummy with Iyatil. How is Jasnah going to react when she returns and discovers that Shallan is involved with the Ghostbloods. Will Jasnah even stop to listen if Shallan is only doing it to infiltrate them and learn what they know? Will Jasnah even care? This is an organization that has sent assassins after her, and Shallan has already deceived Jasnah once. Then there's her budding friendship with Kaladin. Shallan is going to find out that Kaladin killed Helaran. Kaladin even notices the amount of anger in her voice in the midst of a Highstorm. He then continues to hide the truth from her. That will certainly form a schism between the two.

Notable quote: "Let Shallan Davar be a Radiant, conformist and noble. Let Veil come to us." . . ."And let her find truth."

The Bondsmith-Dalinar

Dalinar is going to have his hands full dealing with the aftermath of Adolin's actions, which will be quite a problem in itself, along with Kaladin's problem with him, but what about Dalinar's problems with Kaladin? Kaladin conspired to kill the king, Dalinar's nephew. He never came forward with the information, and then gave one of his co-conspirators s full set of Shards that was given to him by the Kholin family. Those Shards then leave Kholinar's control when Moash defects to Taravangian. Kaladin is mouthy, disrespectful, ruined their chance to take Sadeas out in a legal fashion, which makes him indirectly responsible for Adolin's actions. Also, how is Jasnah going to respond when she finds out Dalinar is dating her mother? It's hinted that Jasnah was closer to Gavilar than she was to Navani, and while she's close to Dalinar as well, it could form a rift between Navani and Jasnah, which in turn would hurt their relationship. Once they both get over the whole "you're supposed to be dead" thing. Add in the fact that his bonded spren directly forbid Syl to bond to Kaladin, along with the fact the Stormfather harbors a deep hatrid for humanity.

Notable quote- "I gave you a position no darkeyes has ever held in this army. I let you into conferences with the king, and I listened when you spoke. Do not make me regret those decisions soldier."

The Truthwatcher-Renarin

I think Renarin's troubles all will stem from Adolin. Firstly, there is Adolin's actions with Sadeas. Renarin will most likely hold Dalinar and Elhokar directly responsible for whatever happens to Adolin. After everything Sadeas has done to their family, I think Renarin, as has been demonstrated by their relationship, will stand directly by Adolin. If Adolin is executed, Renarin will never forgive them. If Adolin is exiled, Renarin will go with him. Whatever rift forms between Dalinar and Adolin because of Sadea's death, it will also form between Dalinar and Renarin. Then there's Shallan-Adolin's girlfriend. She doesn't seem to be very fond of Renarin, and mistreats him during the final battle. If that kind of treatment of Renarin continues, it will form a rift between Adolin and Shallan as well, which will distance her from the Kholin family.

Notable quote- "Someone shut him up." Shallan snapped. "Gag him if you have to."

The Elsecaller-Jasnah

First of all, there's the whole 'presumed dead' thing. Awkward. But the real problems that Jasnah is going to have is when her family finds out about her assassins. Dalinar surely will not approve of that sort of behavior, and how will Elhokar react when he finds out that the target Jasnah was considering having assassinated is his wife? There's also the matter of her heresy? The fact that Jasnah is a heretic will not endear the world to the new Knights Radiant, especially considering their already tarnished reputation. This could distance the ardentia from the Knights Radiant, which would provide a huge blow to public opinion.

Notable quote- "An odd night, Brightness, to be engaging in treason."

The Skybreaker-Szeth-Son-Naturo-Son-Vallano

Do I even need to go into this one? How will Dalinar react when he finds out one of his new Radiants is the man who killed his brother, and tried to kill him? Kaladin will probably have the "stab first ask questions later" mentality. For that matter, will Szeth even be joining the other Radiants? It seems unlikely that Nalan would continue to kill Surgebinders with the Desloation already started, but who's to know for sure? If he does join, and Dalinar and the other do reconcile his past, this is probably the most devastating public relations event that could happen to the Radiants. The famous Assassin in White a member of the Radiants. The accusations wouldn't be far behind. They use their powers to destabilize nations. Dalinar killed his brother to seize control through the puppet of his nephew. And that's just being mild with rumor.

Notable quote- "But I'm not here for him, Highprince," ... "I'm here for you."

The Edgedancer-Lift

Lift probably is the least tumultuous of the bunch, but getting her alliance is also going to be the most difficult. Lift probably won't even care to join them, given the hints we have about the temperament of the Edgedancers. So besides having to worry about finding her, they'll have to convince her to join them as well. Sounds starvin' difficult to me.

Notable quote- "It is unfortunate they were always so concerned with small-minded things, while ignoring those of greater import. It appears you share their temperament. You have become one of them."

Edited June 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[maxal she/her]

Good post, I give you an upvote. I mostly agree with you. I'll do the first four ones.

 

Kaladin: You are summarizing it nicely. Kaladin is a perpetual victim and despite all that has happened, he still views himself as one (hence the slave brand that won't heal). I could see him going down the line of thought where Dalinar is responsible for his misery. It would completely be unfair to do so as Kaladin has his share of responsibilities towards his own faith...

 

Roshone being in Heartstone is Dalinar's fault. True. I have argued in another thread Dalinar could not have known all the evil Roshone brought on the town. However, despite being a hateful person, Roshone did have reasons to feel suspicious of Lirin's family. Kal's father did steal and most of their issues came from that crime.

 

Tien was conscript because the law permitted it and because Amaram allowed it. He could have refused Tien, but he didn't. Kaladin did not have to conscript either. He chose to. He was free to do so. Tien's conscription cannot be blame on Dalinar, not even on Roshone as he had to give out names of the least needed persons in his town. Tien, a carpenter's third apprentice, who failed to produced useful objects (sure he carved a wonderful wooden horse, but what good is a wooden horse in a remote town?) was one of them.

 

Kaladin is the one that gave up being a surgeon. No one forced him to. He did not have to rush to join the army. He could not protect his brother, that much was obvious. Lirin knew it. Tien was lost as were most of the other boys forced to enroll.

 

Kaladin is the one that decided to kill Helaran. He could have just got out of the way. Nobody would have asked a spearman to fight a full shardbearer alone. He did it to protect, true, but it did not have to.

 

Afterwards, I agree the blame falls mostly on Amaram.

 

Moreover, I could see Kal going down this line of thought, as it would fit his character. I would also like to add the Laral issue, the lighteyes girl who encouraged Kal to win out shards so he could gain status....... This is bound to create turmoil.

 

Kal also needs to accept his new position as a lighteye. He will have to learn to function in their society. He will have to learn about the politic. He will need to learn to work with unhonorable persons he despises because he can't just put everyone in prison. He will also to realize darkeyes are not better than lighteyes: give anyone a position of undisputed power and you see abuse, no matter their eye color.

 

Shallan

 

Shallan is going to have to dance many dance in the next book. She has to be the nice smart Radiant, the faithful betrothed to Adolin, the spy, the protector of her family and the member of the Ghostblood. She may get lost within all of her lies. She may end up digging herself a deeper and deeper grave and she crafts lies to cover for more lies. Seeing Jasnah again will be an issue. Will she resolve herself to take back her position as her wards? Will she feel she has outgrown Jasnah? And how about Adolin? Does she really wants to pursue the relationship now that our family is safe? Will she even have the time for it? Won't Adolin find her distant and cold given all of her "side activities"? Won't he interprets this as "Shallan wants to break up because this is how it happened with every single other women I have ever been with"? Will she have a role to play in Adolin eventual downfall? Will she feel any guilt towards it? Does she love him? What does she feel for Kaladin? Is it more than mere attraction? Will she pursue it? Will she find herself between two men or will she just decide she is better unmarried like Jasnah?

 

Dalinar

 

I believe Dalinar is the one Radiant who will face the most issues in the next books.

 

First, there is the obvious matter of his son. His oath calls for him to unite and not divide, but can he really unite everyone while letting his son go unpunished? And if he punishes Adolin and sends him on exile, does it not count as "dividing" as he is effectively breaking up his family? How will he deal with the obvious disappointment of seeing his son and heir not live up to his expectations? Isn't it hypocrite to go harsh on Adolin considering all the atrocities he committed as the Blackthorn? Can he really prosecute his son for crimes he committed himself in his youth? Can the Kohlin's household even function without Adolin? Who will lead the army if he is gone? How will the army react to Adolin predicament? He is well loved among them and killing Sadeas may propel him to the rank of hero.... Will Dalinar face revolt among his men?

 

Second, there is the issue of Kal... Kal always above his station, Kal not being honest at all, Kal omitting to share thinks to protect his men. Let's face, Kaladin first allegiance is not Dalinar, but the bridgemen. Will that come into conflict at some point? And the attempted murder ot Elhokar... will the truth come out? Can Dalinar really trust Kaladin?

 

Third, there is issue of Kohlinar and the revolt. It won't quiet. It will grow. What can he do? Will Kal really stop by and do something? What can Kal do anyway? Will anyone even listen to him out there? Kal knows nothing of protocol, he won't know how to behave in such a world. Can Dalinar send Adolin instead? Can he trusts Adolin again considering what he did? Adolin surely can do something about the revolt, but will he? Will he go rogue and rebellious on Dalinar?

 

Renarin

 

Renarin always stands by Adolin. They are very close and Adolin probably shares a LOT with Renarin. Can the same be said about Renarin? He kept his brother in the dark on the Glys matter. Won't Adolin react badly to this? Won't Adolin just be so consumed over his guilt and recent events he'll become distant? Won't Renarin thus think his brother is jealous of him for becoming a Radiant? Will Renarin held it against Adolin? Will he be able to figure out the internal struggle Adolin is currently enduring? Will he even look for it as Adolin is generally so strong? Will he be the one to draw a confession out of Adolin? Will he support his brother or his father? Can he really help his brother? Will he even try or will he be consumed by his own issues? If Adolin is sent away, will he really go with him or see it as an opportunity to finally craft his place in the household? Move away from big brother's shadow? How about his powers... Can he learn to master them? Can he really come forward with visions of the future? Will he continue training as a soldier? Will he finally accept his skill lay elsewhere? Will he learn to be a healer?

[kingbirdy he/him]

I think Renarin will be the least trouble, unless he starts some new issues. I don't think Adolin will be discovered due to the lengths he went to to hide himself - like many things in Alethi society, I think most people will realize he did it, but with no hard proof nothing will happen. I also don't think Shallan really dislikes Renarin, it's just that she was trying to focus to figure out how to save the army from certain death, and Renarin was sitting in the corner speaking gibberish and distracting her.

[king of nowhere]

well, there will certainly be tensions between the radiants, but I think you are overstating them. historically, there has never been anything to unite people like a common enemy. So I'd say the voidbringers and various conspiracies will keep them, if not working together, at least pointed in the same direction for the time being.

Relevant quote: "Can we please fight the voidbringers and wait after the battle to discuss our differences? Thanks" (yeah, i totally made it up, but it fits)

[Rybal]

First off, I disagree on the blame for Roshone. Initial blame falls on Roshone himself. Beyond that, Elkohar and Gavilar overrode Dalinar's decision. While I don't disagree that there will be conflict between Kaladin and Dalinar, I don't see this as being the major factor. He never seemed to blame Dalinar for it. Further, Maxil made a lot of good points on that subject.

 

Most of Kaladin's problems thus far have been because he wasn't accepting who he was or where he was headed. After WoR, he seems to be in tune with what's to come. He also has a natural leadership ability and will work well with Dalinar now that most of the secrets are out in the open.

 

Shallan's going to be an interesting one. I don't foresee the conflict between her and Jasnah the way that you do. Jasnah left and I expect her to understand that Shallan has grown and that divide that was previously present will diminish, if they even come into contact with one another. I see jealousy on the part of Adolin to be a bigger potential problem. Also, the potential for the Ghostbloods to "turn" her cannot be dismissed. Through her relationship with them, we will gain a different understanding of what is going on.

 

With Dalinar, I wonder just how soon anyone will learn of Adolin's involvement in Sadeas' death. I wonder if the gouged out eyes will make people think that it was Liss that did it. As much as Stormfather did not want Syl to go back to Kaladin, the fact that he was willing to bond Dalinar at all suggests that this won't be a problem. Again, Kaladin is more willing to do what it takes and understands his role in keeping Syl alive than he was over the course of this book, so I don't see this as a problem.

 

With Renarin, I think that there is too much speculation in your post. Your post is built upon the assumption that it will become common knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas. As much as that seems predictable and a ready source of conflict, there are other ways that that death could be interpreted. Having to live with the guilt of Sadeas' blood on his hand would increase the level of internal conflict for Adolin.

 

With Jasnah, I don't expect that the "presumed dead thing" will be an issue. Navani was never fully convinced. Also, I don't foresee her having any issues with Dalinar and Navani's courtship. She is very pragmatic and not tied to cultural traditions to the extent that others are. As for the assassins, I highly doubt that anyone would bat an eye. Dalinar might be a little upset, but it wouldn't surprise anyone. After the events of this book, I think that even Elkohar would judge his sister poorly for setting an assassin to watch his wife, considering that she essentially destroyed Kholinar. Furthermore, considering the current status of The Almighty and the acceptance of that fact by Dalinar and Kaladin, I don't see her heresy being as big of an issue - at least within the KR. They will let their actions speak for themselves.

 

With Szeth, I can't help but feel that Dalinar and Kaladin would be welcoming of him, provided that he actually is on his way to becoming a Skybreaker. By the time the Desolation is over, no one will care where it was that he started.

 

With Lift, who knows? I'm not convinced that all of the KR will even be together in the end, especially not all of the early ones.

 

To me, the biggest challenge facing the KR is time. The Desolation is upon them before they even have a clue of what they are doing and before they can organize. Additionally, there are outside influences such as the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor that could potentially corrupt and turn these new Knights, since there is really no way for them to know what to do.

[maxal she/her]

I think Renarin will be the least trouble, unless he starts some new issues. I don't think Adolin will be discovered due to the lengths he went to to hide himself - like many things in Alethi society, I think most people will realize he did it, but with no hard proof nothing will happen. I also don't think Shallan really dislikes Renarin, it's just that she was trying to focus to figure out how to save the army from certain death, and Renarin was sitting in the corner speaking gibberish and distracting her.

 

 

With Renarin, I think that there is too much speculation in your post. Your post is built upon the assumption that it will become common knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas. As much as that seems predictable and a ready source of conflict, there are other ways that that death could be interpreted. Having to live with the guilt of Sadeas' blood on his hand would increase the level of internal conflict for Adolin.

 

 

Renarin has a lot of unresolved internal issues. He has spent all his life in his brother's shadow and this may very well be his first chance to shine. We know he is desperate to find himself some use and his new Radianhood may just give him that providing he succeeds in accepting the fatality of his new powers.

 

Of course Adolin will be discovered. The clues he left behind may not point to him directly, but Adolin himself won't be able to keep it all on the inside. From his POV we know he is not always as confident as he appears, but tries to maintain a brave face because people are depending on him. He will probably keep the charade for a while, but he won't be able to maintain it forever. There is too much happening currently for him not to be affected: his near perfect life is crumbling all around him and he is powerless to stop it. He will crack at some point and Renarin may very well be the one person he'll talk to. Or not. Either way, there will be some conflict between the brothers and we need to see it happen. Renarin needs to move away from Adolin's shadow, be his own man and accept that man will differ than the typical Alethki male. Adolin needs to come in terms with reality, appreciate all he has/had, move away from Dalinar's shadow and become the man he is and not the man daddy wants him to be. He also needs to break down if he is ever to bond a spren, but that is another discussion entirely I foresee a lot of maturing and growing up for these two.

 

I don't think Shallan dislike Renarin either. Renarin was quite annoying in that scene and I cannot blame Shallan for what she said. However, I wonder if Renarin will not developed a dislike of Shallan? That could be interesting.

 

 

Shallan's going to be an interesting one. I don't foresee the conflict between her and Jasnah the way that you do. Jasnah left and I expect her to understand that Shallan has grown and that divide that was previously present will diminish, if they even come into contact with one another. I see jealousy on the part of Adolin to be a bigger potential problem. Also, the potential for the Ghostbloods to "turn" her cannot be dismissed. Through her relationship with them, we will gain a different understanding of what is going on.

 

I do not think Adolin will get jealous as it is not his nature. Self-depreciating, yes, but not jealous. Jasnah may or may not understand. She will see the value in what Shallan has accomplished, but will she be able to threat her as an equal? Should she? Shallan is a 17 years old teenager who still has a lot to learn. It would be best if she were to retake her place as Jasnah ward, it would allow her to grow some more, but she may not want to.

 

 

With Dalinar, I wonder just how soon anyone will learn of Adolin's involvement in Sadeas' death. I wonder if the gouged out eyes will make people think that it was Liss that did it. As much as Stormfather did not want Syl to go back to Kaladin, the fact that he was willing to bond Dalinar at all suggests that this won't be a problem. Again, Kaladin is more willing to do what it takes and understands his role in keeping Syl alive than he was over the course of this book, so I don't see this as a problem.

 

People may think it was an assassin, true. People may blame the Kohlins directly. The blame could even go towards Adolin himself as he was known to be in the vicinity when it happened. Adolin may give himself away by his actions: nervousness, tendency to loose himself in the Tower,  increasing recklessness, more brashness, more emotional than usual, etc. People who know him should be able to see something is wrong, but will they or will they be overwhelmed with thThe truth may not come out immediately, but it will, in the near future. I am convinced Adolin will talk at some point. He won't be able to carry this weigh on his shoulder for a very long time, not with all else that is happening.

 

This will be a huge arc for Dalinar: he has worked SO hard to turn his son into a honorable man following the code this will be a blast. It will also remind him of his dark days as the Blackthorn. He may fear Adolin is starting to walk on those footsteps. How will he react? Will he be understanding or harsh?

 

 

With Jasnah, I don't expect that the "presumed dead thing" will be an issue. Navani was never fully convinced. Also, I don't foresee her having any issues with Dalinar and Navani's courtship. She is very pragmatic and not tied to cultural traditions to the extent that others are. As for the assassins, I highly doubt that anyone would bat an eye. Dalinar might be a little upset, but it wouldn't surprise anyone. After the events of this book, I think that even Elkohar would judge his sister poorly for setting an assassin to watch his wife, considering that she essentially destroyed Kholinar. Furthermore, considering the current status of The Almighty and the acceptance of that fact by Dalinar and Kaladin, I don't see her heresy being as big of an issue - at least within the KR. They will let their actions speak for themselves.

 

Jasnah actions were ruthless. I would love to see how the Kohlin family will deal with those. What is more acceptable to them? Open murder in the dark or team of assassins? As far as I know, Elhokar may rejoiced in his wife's death

 

 

To me, the biggest challenge facing the KR is time. The Desolation is upon them before they even have a clue of what they are doing and before they can organize. Additionally, there are outside influences such as the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor that could potentially corrupt and turn these new Knights, since there is really no way for them to know what to do.

 

To me, one of their biggest challenge is to assemble a full team and master their new powers. They also need to fight the prejudice society have against them. Another challenge will be trusting each others: they are not talking, they are hiding things one from one another. They need to learn to work as a cohesive unit and they need to grow in number.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

First of all, I want to say that the things I wrote for each person isn't necessarily how I see things, or how they are, but rather, how the characters might perceive future events from their perspective. I agree with a good portion of what Maxal says. We seem to be on the same wavelength here, which I'm glad of. After the Dalinar/Sadeas' murder thread, I'm happier debating with Maxal rather than against (not saying I didn't have a ton of fun in that thread, just happy to have a strong debater on my side!  )

 

 

well, there will certainly be tensions between the radiants, but I think you are overstating them. historically, there has never been anything to unite people like a common enemy. So I'd say the voidbringers and various conspiracies will keep them, if not working together, at least pointed in the same direction for the time being.

Relevant quote: "Can we please fight the voidbringers and wait after the battle to discuss our differences? Thanks" (yeah, i totally made it up, but it fits)

 

Well, possibly, but they've got a lot going against them, and if they decide to wait until after the threat is past to resolve their issues, I think they'll be in more trouble. It's hard to trust the person next to you completely when you've got deep seated issues with them. It breaks concentration and causes all sorts of problems to rise to the surface. Sure, you might try and put those aside and work together, but your patience for that person's mistakes will be shortened incredibly, which will then cause a bigger rift to form. If they don't deal with these issues, I see it tearing them apart and making it easy for the Parshendi. Plus, one of their members is part of one of conspiracies/secret societies. 

 

 

Shallan's going to be an interesting one. I don't foresee the conflict between her and Jasnah the way that you do. Jasnah left and I expect her to understand that Shallan has grown and that divide that was previously present will diminish, if they even come into contact with one another. I see jealousy on the part of Adolin to be a bigger potential problem. Also, the potential for the Ghostbloods to "turn" her cannot be dismissed. Through her relationship with them, we will gain a different understanding of what is going on. 

 

 

Shallan is now involved with the people who tried to assassinate Jasnah on multiple occasions, she has a history of deceiving Jasnah, and the most nearly successful attempt on Jasnah's life occurred on a boat Shallan spent a considerable amount of time on, and that she suggested they book passage on for their trip. Jasnah is in an intelligent woman, if she finds even a whiff of a trace of Shallan working with the Ghostbloods, she'll put all these pieces together and form a logical conclusion, even if it's the wrong one, and Jasnah has had Ghostbloods killed before...

 

 

 

 

With Dalinar, I wonder just how soon anyone will learn of Adolin's involvement in Sadeas' death. I wonder if the gouged out eyes will make people think that it was Liss that did it. As much as Stormfather did not want Syl to go back to Kaladin, the fact that he was willing to bond Dalinar at all suggests that this won't be a problem. Again, Kaladin is more willing to do what it takes and understands his role in keeping Syl alive than he was over the course of this book, so I don't see this as a problem.

 

With Renarin, I think that there is too much speculation in your post. Your post is built upon the assumption that it will become common knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas. As much as that seems predictable and a ready source of conflict, there are other ways that that death could be interpreted. Having to live with the guilt of Sadeas' blood on his hand would increase the level of internal conflict for Adolin.

 

Adolin's cover up of Sadea's death seems very flimsy to me. First off, only one eye is gouged out, and there's a knife sticking out of it. Not Lhiss's style at all. Then, he was the last person seen with Sadeas before the murder, and that knife sticking in his eye is Adolin's side knife, which I'm assuming is pretty spiffy, considering he's the heir to a princedom. He's going to be missing his cuff for a good while during the time he's establishing his alibi, which is also pretty weak. He went off somewhere and "pretended to be there the whole time." If Adolin doesn't get discovered, then it's even easier to get away with murder in Alethi society than it is in my hometown. (We have one of the highest unsolved murder rates in the country-fun fact.)

 

Also, define too much speculation...that's kind of what every theory is..pure speculation. I was reaching a little for the Renarin Shallan, but as far as too much speculation, I don't see that as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

With Jasnah, I don't expect that the "presumed dead thing" will be an issue. Navani was never fully convinced. Also, I don't foresee her having any issues with Dalinar and Navani's courtship. She is very pragmatic and not tied to cultural traditions to the extent that others are. As for the assassins, I highly doubt that anyone would bat an eye. Dalinar might be a little upset, but it wouldn't surprise anyone. After the events of this book, I think that even Elkohar would judge his sister poorly for setting an assassin to watch his wife, considering that she essentially destroyed Kholinar. Furthermore, considering the current status of The Almighty and the acceptance of that fact by Dalinar and Kaladin, I don't see her heresy being as big of an issue - at least within the KR. They will let their actions speak for themselves.

 

 

 

That may be, but I think she might see it as direspectful to her father. Difference of opinion on that point. I really think you're understating the reaction towards her assassins though. Assuedan is family. She's Kholin. Elhokar definitely is not portrayed as level headed, he's headstrong, emotional, and quick to anger; I highly doubt he'd quickly overlook attempts to kill his wife, no matter how incompetant or unfaithful she is. In fact, I think he'd be twice as quick to react, because it reflects badly on him. Not to mention his paranoia concerning assassins already. With the attempts on his life that have already happened, he might even go as far as to place the blame for those on Jasnah as well. He already suspected Dalinar of it, so is it that big of a jump to to your sister who was considering assassinating your wife?

 

As for the heresy, that's more of a public relations issue than an internal one. I wasn't trying to imply that the other KR would have problems with it. Half of them are Kholins, and already used to it. But the KR have a terrible reputation with the greater Alethkar, and including a heretic in them could be catastrophic, especially if it causes the  Ardentia to publicly denounce them.

 

 

 

With Szeth, I can't help but feel that Dalinar and Kaladin would be welcoming of him, provided that he actually is on his way to becoming a Skybreaker. By the time the Desolation is over, no one will care where it was that he started.

 

I still see that as highly unlikely, Dalinar loved his brother. Szeth killed Gavilar. That's a huge point of contention. But even if they just accept him, this is an even large public relations nightmare. The new Knights Radiant have been assassinating rulers across the world. The new leader of the Knights Radiant even had his brother assassinated in order to seize power. This could unite the whole world behind Taravangian against the Knights Radiant. 

 

 

 

 

With Lift, who knows? I'm not convinced that all of the KR will even be together in the end, especially not all of the early ones.

 

"Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red."

-Collected: Jasachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments.

WoK chapter 9.

 

Seems likely to me they will all meet and fight together. 

 

 

 

To me, the biggest challenge facing the KR is time. The Desolation is upon them before they even have a clue of what they are doing and before they can organize. Additionally, there are outside influences such as the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor that could potentially corrupt and turn these new Knights, since there is really no way for them to know what to do

 

I'll give you that time is a pressing issue, but really that just compounds the problems I've illustrated. The need to be united, according to Dalinar's vision, and the lack of time to resolve this issues is a part of that issues. The Ghostbloods I've already addressed in Shallan, but I don't think the Sons of Honor will have much sway over and of the new KR.

[maxal she/her]

First of all, I want to say that the things I wrote for each person isn't necessarily how I see things, or how they are, but rather, how the characters might perceive future events from their perspective. I agree with a good portion of what Maxal says. We seem to be on the same wavelength here, which I'm glad of. After the Dalinar/Sadeas' murder thread, I'm happier debating with Maxal rather than against (not saying I didn't have a ton of fun in that thread, just happy to have a strong debater on my side! )

Thanks. We can't always disagree I must say I too was saying things that may happened or the line of reasoning each character may fall within based on what we know of them so far. It may or may not happen, but it is fun to speculate.

Well, possibly, but they've got a lot going against them, and if they decide to wait until after the threat is past to resolve their issues, I think they'll be in more trouble. It's hard to trust the person next to you completely when you've got deep seated issues with them. It breaks concentration and causes all sorts of problems to rise to the surface. Sure, you might try and put those aside and work together, but your patience for that person's mistakes will be shortened incredibly, which will then cause a bigger rift to form. If they don't deal with these issues, I see it tearing them apart and making it easy for the Parshendi. Plus, one of their members is part of one of conspiracies/secret societies.

They all have trust issues up to some points. I agree they will struggle. They also need to increase their number. Drastically. They need more knights and they need the warriors (Stonewards, Dustbringers, Edgedancers). Basically, pretty much all they have are scholars. True you have Kal, but Kal is gone on his own personal mission.. He may be away from the main crew for a while.

It will be hard for them to learn how to work together and I hope Dalinar can pull it off.

Shallan is now involved with the people who tried to assassinate Jasnah on multiple occasions, she has a history of deceiving Jasnah, and the most nearly successful attempt on Jasnah's life occurred on a boat Shallan spent a considerable amount of time on, and that she suggested they book passage on for their trip. Jasnah is in an intelligent woman, if she finds even a whiff of a trace of Shallan working with the Ghostbloods, she'll put all these pieces together and form a logical conclusion, even if it's the wrong one, and Jasnah has had Ghostbloods killed before...

I agree. Shallan is not trustworthy and whereas Jasnah may understand, she may also jump to the wrong conclusions. We must not forget Jasnah is the most ruthless of the Kohlins. Her actions in the dark are far far worst than Adolin's murder. Jasnah is cold and calculating. Everyone she kills, she does it, calmly, knowingly whereas hotheaded Adolin got overruled by his emotions and lost control which is not unlike old Dalinar. How will the Kohlins ever deal with Jasnah once they learn the truth? Will they be more forgiving as her ways are more Alethki like? Or will they be horrified as her "crimes" were premeditated as opposed to Adolin who clearly lost it? Who will they see as the greatest liability or the greatest risk hazard? Will the two "dark" Kohlins unite themselves and work together or will they disapprove their personal actions? What is the history between Jasnah and the Ghostblood? Could it be related to the "unkown event" that broke her some time in the past? Could Jasnah vendetta against the Ghostblood be personal?

Edit: I have also been wondering on the real reasons behind Jasnah betroying Shallan to Adolin... I have always felt there was more behind this than helping her ward. Clearly, she had something in mind.

Adolin's cover up of Sadea's death seems very flimsy to me. First off, only one eye is gouged out, and there's a knife sticking out of it. Not Lhiss's style at all. Then, he was the last person seen with Sadeas before the murder, and that knife sticking in his eye is Adolin's side knife, which I'm assuming is pretty spiffy, considering he's the heir to a princedom. He's going to be missing his cuff for a good while during the time he's establishing his alibi, which is also pretty weak. He went off somewhere and "pretended to be there the whole time." If Adolin doesn't get discovered, then it's even easier to get away with murder in Alethi society than it is in my hometown. (We have one of the highest unsolved murder rates in the country-fun fact.)

Of course it is sloppy. I for one believe Adolin is immensely distressed at the time of the murder after which he goes into a state of shock, thus explaining the quasi-mechanical way be which he hides the evidence. He was not thinking straight. He was not acting in a calculated and thoughtful manner, he did not planned this. He planned to walk away, but got taken into Sadeas's gloating, once more. He was already unhinged enough before, Sadeas was the last drop. I am convinced someone will connect the dots. It wouldn't be hard to make the suspicions fall on impulsive, brash Adolin known to openly hate Sadeas. Besides, something tells me this is reminiscing of the Blackthorn habit of making "head rolls on a whim". Many people are already seeing another Blackthorn into Adolin they may make the connection quicker than we think. Or will Adolin beat them up by telling Dalinar about it before anything is discovered? If he does, will the Kohlins be willing to hide any evidence in order to protect him? Will they try to quiet the affair or will they considered Adolin now is a liability that needs to be deal with? Will they think him not being a Radiant makes in expendable? A necessary sacrifice to empower their leadership on Alethkar? Will they go this far?

I do not think it is too much speculation to guess Renarin will react to the ordeal. So far, the brothers have been presented to us as very close one to another. They are both willing to jump in front of a wild chasmfield, unarmed if need be, to protect the other. How will their relationship play out in the upcoming events? Will Renarin do as you claim and standby his brother? Or will this move them apart? On a much deeper level, what is behind their relationship? Could it be linked to their mother's death? And what is it with that necklace?

That may be, but I think she might see it as direspectful to her father. Difference of opinion on that point. I really think you're understating the reaction towards her assassins though. Assuedan is family. She's Kholin. Elhokar definitely is not portrayed as level headed, he's headstrong, emotional, and quick to anger; I highly doubt he'd quickly overlook attempts to kill his wife, no matter how incompetant or unfaithful she is. In fact, I think he'd be twice as quick to react, because it reflects badly on him. Not to mention his paranoia concerning assassins already. With the attempts on his life that have already happened, he might even go as far as to place the blame for those on Jasnah as well. He already suspected Dalinar of it, so is it that big of a jump to to your sister who was considering assassinating your wife?

As for the heresy, that's more of a public relations issue than an internal one. I wasn't trying to imply that the other KR would have problems with it. Half of them are Kholins, and already used to it. But the KR have a terrible reputation with the greater Alethkar, and including a heretic in them could be catastrophic, especially if it causes the Ardentia to publicly denounce them.

I do not think Jasnah and Elhokar have a strong relationship. I wouldn't be surprised if their barely care about each other. It seems anger management issues run in the family as both Dalinar, Adolin and Elhokar have it to some level. Dalinar upholds a moral code to get himself into check. He forced Adolin to go through the same process to give him boundaries as well. It also helps Adolin genuinely is a nice kind-hearted person who hero-worships his father, which will thus make him extra-guilty over his own actions. Elhokar however is another matter... Elhokar never seem to feel any regret over what he does. He feels entitled to his outbursts. Oh true there was this discussion with Kal, but it had more to do about "how to you make them like you" then about "I feel so sorry for being such a lame king". Elhokar also do not have this desire to please Dalinar nor does he seem to admire his uncle very much. He probably sees him as another overbearing person in his entourage trying to take over him. Just like his father, just like his sister.

I think you are right to think Elhokar may be more concern about how Jasnah's actions may reflect on HIM then about the actions themselves. There is also the whole concept of assassins which is sensitive subject with Elhokar... I would immensely disappointed to see Elhokar grow into a good benevolent king as he is miles away from there. A short trip to a Herdazian family will not unto years of being spoiled, arrogant and entitled to his tantrums. He is an overgrown spoiled kid deprived of any sort of charisma who should not be in a place of leadership. Period. I would not be surprised to see tension built up between the siblings.

For Navani, however, I must say I am hoping mother and daughter may be able to settle their differences. I am hoping thinking Jasnah is dead will bring them closer. I am routing a nice tearful reunion

I still see that as highly unlikely, Dalinar loved his brother. Szeth killed Gavilar. That's a huge point of contention. But even if they just accept him, this is an even large public relations nightmare. The new Knights Radiant have been assassinating rulers across the world. The new leader of the Knights Radiant even had his brother assassinated in order to seize power. This could unite the whole world behind Taravangian against the Knights Radiant.

I would be sincerely deceived to see Szeth join the ranks of the Radiants. It would be devastating and I doubt, as you say, that Dalinar would even agree to it. Szeth murdered his brother, murdered him and nearly murdered Adolin! How can Dalinar walk past that? If he gives Szeth a free pass, than he has to give one to his son. How will that sit we the world? The Radiants, last refuge for this world's murderers?

I for one am routing to see another character take the place of the Skybreaker. Szeth definitely have a role to play in regards to that, but honestly, I just cannot see how he could ever be a Radiant. Maybe he could be a rogue Radiant, working outside the main crew, but not together, not openly. Impossible. Not after all he did.

Edited June 28, 2014 by maxal

[Patrick Star]

Szeth.  Oh boy.  Szeth Szeth Szeth.  Where do we begin?

 

First off, how will his reappearance with an even more powerful weapon than Jezrien's honorblade appear to Dalinar?  Kaladin says that he killed him (Szeth), but here's his brother's murderer walking around with the Rosharian equivalent of a nuke after slaughtering 7 honorblade wielders.  That'll do wonders for everyone, I'm sure (sarcasm).

 

Also, what about the black sphere?  Will he retrieve it?  What happens when the radiants find out about it?  And what's in it?

 

Let's say that the sphere contains Yelig-nar, as this is currently the most likely option.  If this is the case, he's ALREADY INSIDE OF SZETH'S HEAD!!! There's a whole thread devoted to this, so I won't get into the details.  If Blightwind is already talking to Szeth, what else can he do?  Does he see what Szeth sees?  Can he influence Szeth's actions?  Strengthen him?  Corrupt him?  He could possibly turn Szeth into a mole and/or a walking time bomb carrying an even larger bomb!

 

In short, Szeth is most definitely going to present a sizable conundrum to the radiants no matter WHAT he does in the third book.

 

 

Also, in regards to Kaladin killing Helaran, it was partially protection and partially revenge.  Helaran killed at a bunch of Kaladin's men on his way to Amaram, and ended up killing all but 4 of them.  And keep in mind that he went OUT OF HIS WAY to slaughter those innocent soldiers!  Either Shallan will accept that Helaran's death was his own fault (and that her brother wasn't as great as she thought he was) or she will have a complete mental breakdown.  I don't see anything happening between those two extremes.

[Chrono she/her]

For Adolin's murder of Sadeas, we have the fact that Urithiru is freaking enormous. People may be too preoccupied with searching out the entire thing until Adolin goes back and hides the body better. However, since Sadeas is a rather important dude, the chances of that happening are nil. So, we have a body with one eye missing, no Shardblade, and tons of blood splattered around. Sounds to me like an opportunist knifing some guy in the alleyway for a Shardblade. Of course, there is the fact that Adolin left the murder weapon at the scene of the crime. Yeah, he's screwed. (Note: We have no idea how advanced forensics is on Roshar, but the evidence towards Adolin is so mounting that I'd convict him on the spot.)

 

Shallan's reaction to Kaladin killing Helaran: I honestly don't know. A part of me thinks that her reaction will be small. Her initial shock over the fact that her esteemed elder brother is dead has passed. She still thinks that Amaram is a bastard, but the anger has cooled. I think that she will be angry, mainly because Kaladin didn't tell her and hid the truth from her (although the amount of screentime between the two after the chasm scene was maybe two hours. At most). So, she'll probably get mad, but then accept what has happened.

 

Szeth is a massive problem. For one, he's gone rogue at the end of WoR. He has Nightblood. And he has a hefty grudge against his homeland. Who's to say he won't extend that grudge to Kaladin/Dalinar for being the person who prevented his last order/survived everything he threw at him? I don't think he'll ever join the KR until he's had a massive redemption process with them.

[maxal she/her]

For Adolin's murder of Sadeas, we have the fact that Urithiru is freaking enormous. People may be too preoccupied with searching out the entire thing until Adolin goes back and hides the body better. However, since Sadeas is a rather important dude, the chances of that happening are nil. So, we have a body with one eye missing, no Shardblade, and tons of blood splattered around. Sounds to me like an opportunist knifing some guy in the alleyway for a Shardblade. Of course, there is the fact that Adolin left the murder weapon at the scene of the crime. Yeah, he's screwed. (Note: We have no idea how advanced forensics is on Roshar, but the evidence towards Adolin is so mounting that I'd convict him on the spot.)

 

I have been wondering about the knife... Did he really left it there? I do not recall any evidence of what he did with the said knife... If he left it there, well that was a massive mistake (which would pretty much fit my theory on how mentally disturbed Adolin is at that time: I mean who leaves the murder's weapon on the scene of the crime???? No one with a clear head.). Explaining his cuffs is one thing, he may even get away with it (just burn the clothes and never say a word about it, I mean he must have 10 other identical uniforms in his closet as he only wears that), but explaining why he is missing his knife in another matter... Besides, the knife of a highranked lighteyed is probably distinctive, like richly ornamented and such. I agree, everything points towards him, but I am hoping he will come clean to Dalinar before accusations start to flow.

 

 

Shallan's reaction to Kaladin killing Helaran: I honestly don't know. A part of me thinks that her reaction will be small. Her initial shock over the fact that her esteemed elder brother is dead has passed. She still thinks that Amaram is a bastard, but the anger has cooled. I think that she will be angry, mainly because Kaladin didn't tell her and hid the truth from her (although the amount of screentime between the two after the chasm scene was maybe two hours. At most). So, she'll probably get mad, but then accept what has happened.

 

I understand why Shallan is upset Helaran is dead, but I do not understand why she is mad at the killer... I mean, it is not like if he was murdered: he was killed in battle. When you are fighting a war, there are deaths, on both side, good men, most of them, but you cannot held one soldier accountable for killing another enemy soldier at a time of war! What was Kal supposed to do? Let himself be hack to death by Helaran because he looked like a nice guy (which I doubt he was, but that is an entirely different matter)? Why should she be angry at Kal? Because he did not tell her? He barely know her! One night in a chasm and he is supposed to spill out all of his dirty secrets? He had no reasons to. I could see Shallan getting angry over all this, but it would not be fair of her.

 

 

Szeth is a massive problem. For one, he's gone rogue at the end of WoR. He has Nightblood. And he has a hefty grudge against his homeland. Who's to say he won't extend that grudge to Kaladin/Dalinar for being the person who prevented his last order/survived everything he threw at him? I don't think he'll ever join the KR until he's had a massive redemption process with them.

 

Oh Szeth.... Frankly, he ever joins the Radiants, I may lose all respect for them. Dalinar being the Blackthorn is one thing, we can always argue it was a time of war. Shallan murdering her parents, we may argue it was self-defense. Heck even Adolin (assuming he becomes KR) we could argue it was a youthful mistake never to be repeated again, but Szeth? How do you argue in favor of Szeth? Someone had his oathstone? He was just obeying laws? Really? It is this easy to be a Skybreaker? You obey laws, you murdered innocent people just because someone holding a stone tells you to? Really? The only way I see Szeth being a Radiant is if he suffers the appropriate punishment for his deeds. You make penance and afterwards, you can move beyond the crimes.

[Chrono she/her]

 

I understand why Shallan is upset Helaran is dead, but I do not understand why she is mad at the killer... I mean, it is not like if he was murdered: he was killed in battle. When you are fighting a war, there are deaths, on both side, good men, most of them, but you cannot held one soldier accountable for killing another enemy soldier at a time of war! What was Kal supposed to do? Let himself be hack to death by Helaran because he looked like a nice guy (which I doubt he was, but that is an entirely different matter)? Why should she be angry at Kal? Because he did not tell her? He barely know her! One night in a chasm and he is supposed to spill out all of his dirty secrets? He had no reasons to. I could see Shallan getting angry over all this, but it would not be fair of her.

 

 

If I was told that my best friend killed my brother, even if it was in self defense, I would still be very angry at her. Especially if she held back that information when I made it perfectly clear that I loved my brother. Shallan still sees Helaran through the hero-worship goggles, so to speak: to her, he's still a good man and he should have lived. To have Shallan say that "Oh, it's okay, he was trying to kill you, so I forgive you," would be a huge letdown to me, and completely unrealistic. She hated Amaram with a passion after he'd told her that he'd killed her brother (indirectly, mind you). 

 

It would not be fair of Shallan to blame Kaladin for killing Helaran, but when are we ever fair to someone else when we are affected by grief, anger, or fear? Shallan clearly has a soft spot for her brother, and his passing hurt her deeply -- she had to flee the scene immediately, lest someone see her crying. The fact that someone that she has just grown close to (how close she is can be debated) is now revealed to have killed her brother instead of someone that she barely knew is awful. Worse, they knew about it and decided not to tell her. It's the ultimate betrayal.

 

Yes, we must cut Kaladin some slack. He barely had any chance to talk to Shallan after the Chasm thing, and they were both pre-occupied with other matters (Everstorm, Urithiru, Kaladin's parents, Shallan confronting her past, etc.). I don't blame Kaladin for how he handled the situation. But Shallan will. Shallan has a tendency to hold grudges, especially with Amaram. It's going to hurt her, a lot. There really isn't a way of getting around that.

[maxal she/her]

If I was told that my best friend killed my brother, even if it was in self defense, I would still be very angry at her. Especially if she held back that information when I made it perfectly clear that I loved my brother. Shallan still sees Helaran through the hero-worship goggles, so to speak: to her, he's still a good man and he should have lived. To have Shallan say that "Oh, it's okay, he was trying to kill you, so I forgive you," would be a huge letdown to me, and completely unrealistic. She hated Amaram with a passion after he'd told her that he'd killed her brother (indirectly, mind you).

 

It is not just self-defense, it was war. They fought on opposing sides. You just cannot fault a soldier for killing another enemy soldier during a battle. You can grief, but blaming that person? It is highly unfair to do so. Mind, I do not expect Shallan to see it this way, but it would frustrate me greatly if this fact becomes a huge source of conflict. If she has to be mad at someone, than it should be Helaran, Helaran who literally abandoned his siblings to an abusive father, Helaran who got entangled in an useless war over borders with Alethkar... He is solely to blame for his own death, not poor Kal. However, I do see your point: Shallan will strongly disagree with me.

 

 

It would not be fair of Shallan to blame Kaladin for killing Helaran, but when are we ever fair to someone else when we are affected by grief, anger, or fear? Shallan clearly has a soft spot for her brother, and his passing hurt her deeply -- she had to flee the scene immediately, lest someone see her crying. The fact that someone that she has just grown close to (how close she is can be debated) is now revealed to have killed her brother instead of someone that she barely knew is awful. Worse, they knew about it and decided not to tell her. It's the ultimate betrayal.

 

Well, I wouldn't call Shallan and Kaladin close friends... I call them people who had a near death situations and thus confide in each others. Kaladin owes nothing to Shallan: they are not friends. He does not have to tell her anything and the chasms, when they were fighting for their life was not the time and place to antagonize his only help by revealing how he killed her brother. This is not betrayal and if Shallan sees it this way, then perhaps she should take a good look in the mirror to herself.... How can SHE blame Kaladin for not coming forward with this when she literally lies to Adolin's head most of the time? She certainly has not come forward with her dirty secrets to someone whom she is growing close to. worst someone she is planning to marry. How can she fault the bridgeboy with whom she has 0 relationship save for two days down in the chasm?

 

 

Yes, we must cut Kaladin some slack. He barely had any chance to talk to Shallan after the Chasm thing, and they were both pre-occupied with other matters (Everstorm, Urithiru, Kaladin's parents, Shallan confronting her past, etc.). I don't blame Kaladin for how he handled the situation. But Shallan will. Shallan has a tendency to hold grudges, especially with Amaram. It's going to hurt her, a lot. There really isn't a way of getting around that.

 

Oh I agree with you there, but I am not looking forward for that plot. I must admit I have issues understanding how she can be this mad over the killer of her brother considering how and when he died. They live in a war-worshiping society. Sons, brothers being killed in war must be common happenstance.

[kari-no-sugata]

It is not just self-defense, it was war. They fought on opposing sides. You just cannot fault a soldier for killing another enemy soldier during a battle. You can grief, but blaming that person? It is highly unfair to do so. Mind, I do not expect Shallan to see it this way, but it would frustrate me greatly if this fact becomes a huge source of conflict. If she has to be mad at someone, than it should be Helaran, Helaran who literally abandoned his siblings to an abusive father, Helaran who got entangled in an useless war over borders with Alethkar... He is solely to blame for his own death, not poor Kal. However, I do see your point: Shallan will strongly disagree with me.

 

Posting this quote for relevance to the discussion - chapter 64 (Treasures):

 

Shallan felt an immediate anger at seeing her brother's murderer here, but found that it had quieted somewhat. A smouldering loathing instead of an intense hatred. It had been a long time since she'd seen Helaran, now. And Balat had a point in that her older brother had abandoned them.

 

To try to kill this man, apprently - or so she'd been able to put together from what she'd read of Amaram and his Shardblade. Why had Helaran gone to kill this man? And could she really blame Amaram when, in truth, he'd probably just been defending himself?

 

She felt like she knew so little. Though Amaram was still a bastard, of course.

 

Considering that Helaran is the best person she's ever known, I think she's been much more open-minded about it than most characters would.

 

 

While I'm quote-mining Shallan and Helaran, here's a list of things he tells her in the "Safe things" chapter:

• I've missed your drawings. I think you could be very good, Shallan. You should practice more
• I need you to watch the others for me. You need to be strong, Shallan. For them.
• Draw plants and animals.
• Don't dwell on what happened.
• Please do some drawings for me while I'm gone. Of fanciful things. Of brighter days.

Compare this to what she does (and keeps on doing). I don't know if I should be impressed or creeped out

 

[Tj3na]

In terms of the knife, i dont think it's left in Sadeas corpse based on this

“After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties”

Excerpt From: Brandon, Sanderson. “Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The).”

Two reasons he was using his knife and not his shardblade

1. His shardblade is waaaaay to big to be used for the task and the risk cutting of his hand is quite high

2. When he carves out the chalk markings from the wall, the weapon used is described with a captial B (Blade), which for me indicates the shardblade.

I'd say he's got a decent chance for getting away with it... Unless Nalan starts to smell something. He had an uncanny ability of sniffing out murder. Remember the proto radiant cobbler? How could he ever find out that it was the cobbler that delivered the wine? Doesnt make sense....

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

In terms of the knife, i dont think it's left in Sadeas corpse based on this

Two reasons he was using his knife and not his shardblade

1. His shardblade is waaaaay to big to be used for the task and the risk cutting of his hand is quite high

2. When he carves out the chalk markings from the wall, the weapon used is described with a captial B (Blade), which for me indicates the shardblade.

I'd say he's got a decent chance for getting away with it... Unless Nalan starts to smell something. He had an uncanny ability of sniffing out murder. Remember the proto radiant cobbler? How could he ever find out that it was the cobbler that delivered the wine? Doesnt make sense....

I think it would kind of defeat the point of cutting off his cuffs if he did so with a bloody knife.

[maxal she/her]

I think it would kind of defeat the point of cutting off his cuffs if he did so with a bloody knife.

 

How can he cut his cuff with a 6 foot long shardblade? When have no quote of him explicitly removing the knife............ Gee if he really left it there, this whole murder thing may unravel quickly than I anticipated. Chapter 2 and Adolin will be in jail

[Tj3na]

I think it would kind of defeat the point of cutting off his cuffs if he did so with a bloody knife.

Well, we dont know whether it was actually bloody or not since there's no mention. But considering he is cutting off the cuffs to hide blood stains, it's quite likely he would had wiped the blade before cutting. He is a soldier and Kholin soldiers are always taking good care of their equipment as stated several times in the book.

But, there's no mention so we dont know for sure.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Tj3na

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

How can he cut his cuff with a 6 foot long shardblade? When have no quote of him explicitly removing the knife............ Gee if he really left it there, this whole murder thing may unravel quickly than I anticipated. Chapter 2 and Adolin will be in jail

 

Very carefully   Though Adoin won't be going to prison. 

 

 

". . .I can't imprison him-Shardbearers are above that, and he's cut his way out anyway. Either you execute a Shardbearer or you leave him free."

Chapter 77 Trust

 

 

Well, we dont know whether it was actually bloody or not since there's no mention. But considering he is cutting off the cuffs to hide blood stains, it's quite likely he would had wiped the blade before cutting. He is a soldier and Kholin soldiers are always taking good care of their equipment as stated several times in the book.

But, there's no mention so we dont know for sure.

 

It's bloody. It's all sorts of bloody. It just went through Sadeas' eye and into his brain. There's no way it's not bloody. It's probably got all sorts of grey matter (brain) on it as well.

 

 

Sadeas shook for a moment, blood pooling around the blade as Adolin worked it to be certain. 

. . .

Adolin stumbled back to not get bood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. 

 

There's the blood, and there's Adolin seperating himself from the body. It's after that he does everything else, and the text doesn't say he comes back towards it. 

 

I think you started your quote earlier too late, and missed some of the connotation:

 

 

Dazed, he stared at that weapon. Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. . . .

 

 

There, we see he's stunned, right after the fight. I skipped some stuff about Blades not being good in CQC.

 

 

Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stubled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. 

After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs. . .

 

As has been said before, Adolin was not thinking very clearly. You say not stating he takes it means we don't know, but why would we not get a full rundown of his actions before he leaves the area? What you're proposing is that Adolin pulls the knife out of Sadeas's eye socket, cleans the blade (Somehow. He'd have to wipe it off on Sadeas, and that would eat more time, and could cause him more of a mess since there is blood oozing from his now empty eye socket, not to mention the blood splatter from pulling the knife out,) then uses it to cut off his cuffs, and puts the blade away before he walks off, all of which he does without any text to support even though we have text giving us Adolin's actions between killing Sadeas and walking away. Seems a bit of a stretch to me. I'd rather not believe Brandon would deliberately deceive us like that. 

 

Even if so, that is probably more risky if he has the knife like that. There's no way he could get it completely clean using Sadea's clothes, so having the bloody murder weapon on you when you've got blood on your hands, and are missing your cuffs is still very suspicious. I very much doubt he took the knife with him though. I'm not sure how often you've had to clean up blood, but it isn't easy. With just a cloth and nothing to wash it with, it's next to impossible he's going to get that dagger completely clean on the spot. It's be just as hard later once it dries and congeals into the nooks and crannies of the hilt too. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

Adolin probably cut the cuffs with his sword - Kaladin noted Adolin tends to wear one despite being a Shardbearer. I'm curious what Adolin did with the cuffs, somehow I don't think he left them there when he clearly had the wits to get rid of them in the first place.

 

While I think the 'he picked up the weapon' refers to his side knife, Adolin used his Blade to clear his marks and it will be noticed that someone damaged the wall with a Blade, though it might be concluded Sadeas did that while trying to defend himself. It depends how good a job Adolin did.

 

edit: spelling

Edited July 2, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

No getting around this. We need the whole scene transcribed right after the point of Sadeas's death.

Sadeas shook for a moment, blood pooling around the blade as Adolin worked it to be certain.

A second later, a Shardblade appeared beside Sadeas-his father's Shardblade. Sadeas was dead.

Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. Storms. Had he just done that? Had he just murdered a highprince?

Dazed, he stared at that weapon. Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. The weapons might be worth a fortune, but they'd do less good than a rock in a such close-quarters fight.

Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he'd been in that area all along.

I absolutely cannot reconcile him taking the side knife from this passage. The last time it's directly named by the section is in red. After that, you can see by my color coding that Shardblades are then referenced three times before the 'weapon' in question is mentioned (underlined in the passage), and using the blue, I noted that 'weapon' is used twice immediately before the use in question to to stand in for Shardblades. So in order for this to mean he took the side knife, it would have to reference a noun used four paragraphs earlier, and would have to ignore the uses that would be appropriate that were in the previous paragraph, and three paragraphs before.

Then you combine this with the fact that he backed away from the body to preserve his clothes from blood before picking up the 'weapon' in question. Why would he step back to avoid blood, only to step forward again, and pull a bloody knife out of the body? Why wouldn't there be something in the text about the action. Brandon loves visuals and descriptions that evoke emotion, even if it's disgust or revulsion, and pulling a knife out of someone's brain and eye socket is certainly evocative. He wouldn't miss that opportunity to put in some good descriptions that would make all of you not in the medical field squirm.

Then there's the flow of logic. We know the Shardblade was on the ground, and Adolin was staring at it when it's referred to as 'that weapon.' The very next action after 'Adolin stared at that weapon' is 'Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away,' and the action immediately after that is 'He ditched the Blade out a window.' So Adolin has to go from looking at his father's blade, to stooping over Sadeas's body to pull the knife out, (note, he'd have to pull the knife out, not just pick it up) then he'd have to pick up the Shardblade, then ditch it. We just don't have the text to support that! He's staring at the Blade. He picks up the Blade. He ditches the Blade. Continuity of actions in line with what we're given in the script.

I don't think they'd assume that the scrape was from the fight. There'd be more slashes and rows cut into the stone instead of just one scrape. Plus, they'd have a hard time believing Sadea's would die to a knife if he had his Shardblade out for the fight. The only way that attack could work on a Shardbearer is if it were a complete surprise. Plus I think the chalk mark is a small distance from the body and where the fight happened, since it's after he stumbles away that he fixes the chalk mark.

Edited July 2, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

So, Adolin had the wits to get rid of his cuffs (no mention where he put them), but he left his knife? It seems silly. Though side knives are probably standard, whereas his cuffs are recognizably expensive.

 

As for removing the mark, it would definitely be easy to guess that was did with a Blade and Kholin men were those going around exploring and marking. And that'd what makes it easy to trace the whole thing to Adolin.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

So, Adolin had the wits to get rid of his cuffs (no mention where he put them), but he left his knife? It seems silly. Though side knives are probably standard, whereas his cuffs are recognizably expensive.

As for removing the mark, it would definitely be easy to guess that was did with a Blade and Kholin men were those going around exploring and marking. And that'd what makes it easy to trace the whole thing to Adolin.

The cuffs were because they were bloodstained, not expensive, but from the way the chapter is worded he's obviously not in a rational state of mind, which is why he uses the phrase 'thoughts coming more clearly,' and 'had the presence of mind.' So I wouldn't necessarily say silly.

It wasn't a premeditated crime so it's not like he had a 'murder cover up checklist,' but that's why I think he's going to be caught easily.

The one thing I can see masking Adolin's action with his Blade is if he is able to recover Dalinar's shardblade without anyone noticing. Then he can just claim that the mark was made using Oathbringer by the murderer before they fled.

Edited July 2, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

Not arguing either way here... just looking for clarity.

 

So, it never says that Adolin picked his knife back up after Sadeas was dead.  On the same note, it never says that he left it there in Sadeas's eye, either.  When I read that section I sort of picked it up as he jumped back / up and moved away, but without ever letting go of the knife.  And depending on if it's designed to be a battle knife (vs. a dinner knife like Dalinar's in WoK) it may or may not be easy to clean.

 

So, I'm not sold on leaving the knife there OR removing it.  Because while cleaning the knife would have been good imagery, a corpse with a knife sticking up out of it's eye would as well, and so I could see a valid use of the image either way.

 

Given that the city is a fortress, maybe he's hoping that everyone will think Sadeas ran into a booby trap (or some other random assassin?  I'm sure more people than just the Kholins hated him, given what a jerkface he was.) or some sort of automated KR defense mechanism? 

[Aleksiel]

The cuffs were because they were bloodstained, not expensive

 

I think you misunderstood me a bit. Adolin is the only character we know to wear expensive cuffs, that's why I said leaving them on the scene might incriminate him.