Guest Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Nice discussion on the knife here! I am with EmTrevor here. I believe the textual support we have help us conclude Adolin did leave the knife behind. I too, when I read "weapon" I read "shardblade". It is not far-fetched to think he may have made such a mistake. As someone pointed out, he did not plan to murder Sadeas, he did not have a plan, he lost control. Adolin is a very emotion driven character and right before he meets with Sadeas, we have quotes from him thinking on how overwhelmed he currently feels. Already, before the murder, before learning about his father and his brother being Radiants as well, he had the impulsion to isolate himself. He already was in a fragile state of mind. The events of the last days unhinged him, a lot. Enough to bring into a vulnerable position, emotionally. Sadeas's taunting tripped him over the edge: he was not able to retain control of himself. He acted on an impulsion, on feelings, on emotions as opposed to rationally. Afterwards, he was still an emotional numbo-jumbo. It is impossible for him to have been thinking clearly and rationally. So yes, he stupidly left out his knife. It wouldn't be the first time Adolin gets so over wrap into his emotions he impulsively overlooks certain aspects: *cough* agreeing to a 4 against 1 duel *cough* I think we are bound to see more impulsive Adolin in the next book.... The more this will go on, the more he'll dig himself into his feelings and they'll get so strong he won't be able to think rationally anymore.
Aleksiel Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Ok, let's say he left it. Kaladin, Dalinar and Adolin never remarked side knives as something special, having ornaments or whatever. I think the knife is so standard it can't be traced to Adolin and even if it was, he can claim it was stolen along with his mother's chain. The cuffs and the Blade's scratch on the wall are far more incriminating.
Tj3na Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I can relate to both sides, but since its so unclear on what he actually did, You can build very solid cases for both sides. 1. Adolin is emotionally wrecked, acted on impulse, clearly dazed & overwhelmed. Trevors outline describes this well 2. Adolin is a trained soldier since the age of 10(?), he had the presence of mind to hide 3 things: shardblade, cuffs & chalk on the wall, using a shardblade or even a short sword to cut off the cuffs doesnt seem like something a soldier would do. They tend to use the right tool for the right task, its how they are trained. Likewise, soldiers are trained to never let go of their weapons and always be ready for the next attack. But... There is no clarity on what he actually did. So we can speculate for either side. Looking forward to unhallowed stones so that we will see what happens Also.. I believe we are quite off topic haha How many orders are there left to be found? Do you think Rysn is a proto radiant and that her new pet will help her in some way?
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Ok, let's say he left it. Kaladin, Dalinar and Adolin never remarked side knives as something special, having ornaments or whatever. I think the knife is so standard it can't be traced to Adolin and even if it was, he can claim it was stolen along with his mother's chain. The cuffs and the Blade's scratch on the wall are far more incriminating. But his mother's chain was not stolen: he lost it.... We never knew if he found it again. Something tells me will hear about it, again. Somehow carrying your dead mother's chain for 10 years and convincing yourself it brings you good luck strikes me as important. I do not think the scratch on the wall is this incriminating... Even if someone notice it, they will think the culprit used Oathbringer to erase make it. They won't be able to tell the attacker was a shardbearer as well. In fact, there is absolutely no clues left that would pin-point to a shardbearer. There are clues that could be related to Adolin: motive, lack of alibi, missing cuffs, bloody hands, potentially distinctive knife, but nothing perpetuating to his shardblade, which may be what will save him in the end I can relate to both sides, but since its so unclear on what he actually did, You can build very solid cases for both sides. 1. Adolin is emotionally wrecked, acted on impulse, clearly dazed & overwhelmed. Trevors outline describes this well 2. Adolin is a trained soldier since the age of 10(?), he had the presence of mind to hide 3 things: shardblade, cuffs & chalk on the wall, using a shardblade or even a short sword to cut off the cuffs doesnt seem like something a soldier would do. They tend to use the right tool for the right task, its how they are trained. Likewise, soldiers are trained to never let go of their weapons and always be ready for the next attack. But... There is no clarity on what he actually did. So we can speculate for either side. Looking forward to unhallowed stones so that we will see what happens Also.. I believe we are quite off topic haha How many orders are there left to be found? Do you think Rysn is a proto radiant and that her new pet will help her in some way? 1. I agree. I have outlined this many times as well. 2. His a trained soldier since the age of 6 actually..... He had enough presence of mind to hide three things, but he moved away from the body without taking the knife. Many people have also explained how taking the knife would have been messy, how he would have stained himself more, how it would have been impossible to clean... Since he was not in a proper state of mind, it is quite possible he did forget all about it. He will now have to explain how it is he lost both one uniform and one knife. They are on short supply in Urithiru. He may not have all his stuff. Perhaps she is, perhaps she is not. The larkin strikes me as important, but it may not be Radiant related.
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I thought we had confirmed that Rysn was going to be a Dustbringer? Am I imagining that? And the Larkin is very important if Confused is right about Odium's Plan.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 But his mother's chain was not stolen: he lost it.... We never knew if he found it again. Something tells me will hear about it, again. Somehow carrying your dead mother's chain for 10 years and convincing yourself it brings you good luck strikes me as important. I do not think the scratch on the wall is this incriminating... Even if someone notice it, they will think the culprit used Oathbringer to erase make it. They won't be able to tell the attacker was a shardbearer as well. In fact, there is absolutely no clues left that would pin-point to a shardbearer. There are clues that could be related to Adolin: motive, lack of alibi, missing cuffs, bloody hands, potentially distinctive knife, but nothing perpetuating to his shardblade, which may be what will save him in the end It was just a suggestion, to make it even more believable someone actually stole his knife. It can work even without the chain, I really don't think the side knife is going to be the big clue. Adolin's hands wasn't bloodied, only his cuffs, which he got rid of before anyone could see and once he changes clothes, his damaged uniform can be easily repaired or disposed of without questions. Lack of alibi also isn't the big deal, because the murder happened for a few minutes. He wasn't missing for an hour or any suspicious amount of time. There are so many people with motives around, it would be faster to name those without. What's incriminating about the removed mark is because it would be fairly obvious that's what was removed and Kholin men were those wandering around exploring and marking.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I thought we had confirmed that Rysn was going to be a Dustbringer? Am I imagining that? And the Larkin is very important if Confused is right about Odium's Plan. If we have such confirmation, then I have never seen it. As far as I know, no one has been confirmed for Dustbringer yet. To me, Rysn does not fit the general description of the Dustbringers. They are to be among the most terrifying warriors and she just does not strike me as one. She did one brave thing, but I wouldn't say she embraces bravery as a way of life the same way Kaladin embraces protection, Dalinar embraces piousness and Shallan embraces creativity. If trying for an impossible jump is sufficient to make it to one order, than I am seriously disappointed. I hope the larkin becomes relevant, but not Radiant Order relevant. It was just a suggestion, to make it even more believable someone actually stole his knife. It can work even without the chain, I really don't think the side knife is going to be the big clue. Adolin's hands wasn't bloodied, only his cuffs, which he got rid of before anyone could see and once he changes clothes, his damaged uniform can be easily repaired or disposed of without questions. Lack of alibi also isn't the big deal, because the murder happened for a few minutes. He wasn't missing for an hour or any suspicious amount of time. There are so many people with motives around, it would be faster to name those without. What's incriminating about the removed mark is because it would be fairly obvious that's what was removed and Kholin men were those wandering around exploring and marking. How can he get blood on his cuff but not on his hands? Is that even possible? I agree it may not be as straight-forward to identify the culprit, knife or no knife. Good point about the marks, I haven't thought of it. However, you mention Adolin has been missing for a few minutes, which is untrue. He was wandering, alone. As far as we know, he may have been on his own for quite a long period of time.....
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 How can he get blood on his cuff but not on his hands? Is that even possible? I agree it may not be as straight-forward to identify the culprit, knife or no knife. Good point about the marks, I haven't thought of it. However, you mention Adolin has been missing for a few minutes, which is untrue. He was wandering, alone. As far as we know, he may have been on his own for quite a long period of time..... Here's the quote: Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. Whether or not there was blood on his hands isn't said, however it's relatively easy to clean your hands anyway. Adolin wasn't casually walking around with blood on his hands, of that much it's safe to be sure since noone asked him anything later on. About the time he was missing - you are right, I forgot he had been wandering around randomly for a while. Though I expect Adolin's men to be too loyal to even think of accusing him and there are all those bridgemen and Tower survivals, who are more likely to be suspected before Adolin. So, I suppose the murder will be rather easy blamed on Kholin's men and we'll see if anyone in particular will take the blame before Adolin confesses.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Here's the quote: Whether or not there was blood on his hands isn't said, however it's relatively easy to clean your hands anyway. Adolin wasn't casually walking around with blood on his hands, of that much it's safe to be sure since noone asked him anything later on. About the time he was missing - you are right, I forgot he had been wandering around randomly for a while. Though I expect Adolin's men to be too loyal to even think of accusing him and there are all those bridgemen and Tower survivals, who are more likely to be suspected before Adolin. So, I suppose the murder will be rather easy blamed on Kholin's men and we'll see if anyone in particular will take the blame before Adolin confesses. Adolin would never be able to let someone else take the blame... It will tear him apart. It may be what will spring him to make a confession, in private to Dalinar or to Renarin or to someone. As for Adolin wandering, he was the only one to do so. All other crew searchers were accounted for, except for him. He disappeared and it was not the first time. One could argue he has been seeking for his opportunity for some time. This behavior of his could transform what truly was an unpremeditated crime to a first degree murder...............
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 3, 2014 Author Posted July 3, 2014 Here's the quote: Whether or not there was blood on his hands isn't said, however it's relatively easy to clean your hands anyway. Adolin wasn't casually walking around with blood on his hands, of that much it's safe to be sure since noone asked him anything later on. About the time he was missing - you are right, I forgot he had been wandering around randomly for a while. Though I expect Adolin's men to be too loyal to even think of accusing him and there are all those bridgemen and Tower survivals, who are more likely to be suspected before Adolin. So, I suppose the murder will be rather easy blamed on Kholin's men and we'll see if anyone in particular will take the blame before Adolin confesses. Blood is not relatively easy to clean at all without something to wash with. And there is no later on. That's the last we hear of Adolin. "..and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he'd been in that area all along." We don't have any mention of what the guards see, or say. The last piece of text we have for him in the book leaves it open. I think we have a lot more freedom of assumption for what happens after that. It leaves it at what Adolin's plan was for dealing with them. It very well could (and as likely would not) go something like this. "Brightlord, there you are!" "Yes, I seem to have gotten turned around in this area for quite a bit. Such a large tower." "Brightlord, what happened to your cuffs?" (This is noting Adolin's usually impeccable appearance since he wishes to be fashionable but has to wear a uniform." "Uh..." "Brightlord, is there blood on your hands?" "Uh...I cut myself. It's cleaned now. I had to use my cuffs for bandages." Word gets around that Adolin was wounded but Adolin refuses to let anyone see the wounds. Things get suspicious. This is pure conjecture and just as likely to not happen, maybe even more so, than it is to happen, but you can see my point. It just leaves off with him finding the patrol and pretending to have been in the same area as them, sans cuffs, sans side knife, with no way to wash his hands, which may or may not be bloody.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Blood is not relatively easy to clean at all without something to wash with. .... Although you are right, Adolin either cleaned his hands or there wasn't blood on them (that would be odd actually). He cut his cuffs because of the blood and I doubt he'll miss how important it is to no go around with blood on your hands. The last we hear from him is that he pretends he was in the area of the patrol all along, which implies there was nothing suspicious in Adolin's appearance. I really think he passed the first test.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Blood is not relatively easy to clean at all without something to wash with. And there is no later on. That's the last we hear of Adolin. "..and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he'd been in that area all along." We don't have any mention of what the guards see, or say. The last piece of text we have for him in the book leaves it open. I think we have a lot more freedom of assumption for what happens after that. It leaves it at what Adolin's plan was for dealing with them. It very well could (and as likely would not) go something like this. "Brightlord, there you are!" "Yes, I seem to have gotten turned around in this area for quite a bit. Such a large tower." "Brightlord, what happened to your cuffs?" (This is noting Adolin's usually impeccable appearance since he wishes to be fashionable but has to wear a uniform." "Uh..." "Brightlord, is there blood on your hands?" "Uh...I cut myself. It's cleaned now. I had to use my cuffs for bandages." Word gets around that Adolin was wounded but Adolin refuses to let anyone see the wounds. Things get suspicious. This is pure conjecture and just as likely to not happen, maybe even more so, than it is to happen, but you can see my point. It just leaves off with him finding the patrol and pretending to have been in the same area as them, sans cuffs, sans side knife, with no way to wash his hands, which may or may not be bloody. Like the idea of him pretending to be wounded.... Or it maybe he'll cut himself on purpose to feign an injury? One slice into both hands, use the cuff to make bandages and invent a story about it... What sort of story could he invent to cover it up? Or pound onto something until it draws blood? Scrap them on the rocks? No matter what I come up with, I fail to see how he could nt make it suspicious. Although you are right, Adolin either cleaned his hands or there wasn't blood on them (that would be odd actually). He cut his cuffs because of the blood and I doubt he'll miss how important it is to no go around with blood on your hands. The last we hear from him is that he pretends he was in the area of the patrol all along, which implies there was nothing suspicious in Adolin's appearance. I really think he passed the first test. Maybe he didn't think about his hands.... He forgot about the knife. He clearly is disturbed, dazed and probably in shock, so yes it may be it did not cross his mind to try to clean his hands.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 His knife was in Sadeas eye socket, whereas his hands were with him the whole time... He used them to cut the cuffs and so on. I seriously doubt Brandon will let Adolin's efforts go to waste so soon.
Guest Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 His knife was in Sadeas eye socket, whereas his hands were with him the whole time... He used them to cut the cuffs and so on. I seriously doubt Brandon will let Adolin's efforts go to waste so soon. Yeah but how do you knife someone in the brain without getting any blood on your hands?
Shaggai Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 The cuffs were because they were bloodstained, not expensive, but from the way the chapter is worded he's obviously not in a rational state of mind, which is why he uses the phrase 'thoughts coming more clearly,' and 'had the presence of mind.' So I wouldn't necessarily say silly. It wasn't a premeditated crime so it's not like he had a 'murder cover up checklist,' but that's why I think he's going to be caught easily. The one thing I can see masking Adolin's action with his Blade is if he is able to recover Dalinar's shardblade without anyone noticing. Then he can just claim that the mark was made using Oathbringer by the murderer before they fled. Why would he need to recover Dalinar's Blade without anyone noticing? Surely people would find it on the terrace, right? Bit hard to miss a six-foot-long magic sword worth entire kingdoms sticking out of the floor.
Guest Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) Why would he need to recover Dalinar's Blade without anyone noticing? Surely people would find it on the terrace, right? Bit hard to miss a six-foot-long magic sword worth entire kingdoms sticking out of the floor. I think he is assuming the Tower is so big and monstrous, people may never stumble upon Oathbringer. Anyway, even if they did, what does it say? Whoever killed Sadeas did not take the shardblade? Logicm, considering you need to spend a week with it strap to your back to bond it. A 6 foot sword on your back is quite obvious I would say.... Edited July 4, 2014 by maxal
Shaggai Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 I think he is assuming the Tower is so big and monstrous, people may never stumble upon Oathbringer. Anyway, even if they did, what does it say? Whoever killed Sadeas did not take the shardblade? Logicm, considering you need to spend a week with it strap to your back to bond it. A 6 foot sword on your back is quite obvious I would say.... Especially since Shardblades are unique, so anyone who saw the hypothetical assassin (and knew what Oathbringer looked like) would know he had murdered Sadeas.
Aleksiel Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 Yeah but how do you knife someone in the brain without getting any blood on your hands? Adolin was on top of Sadeas and if there wasn't a sliced artery, I suppose he could have moved away fast enough before any blood got on his hands. As far as the text goes, there was blood only on Adolin's cuffs and not on his clothes or hands.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) It says the murder wasn't for the Shardblade. Then, it also raises questions about the marking on the wall. Someone who didn't commit the murder for the Shard, but still had the forethought to use it on the wall isn't as plausible as a Shardbearer murderer, who would be used to having his own shard to do that with. This then could lead to pointing out Adolin more quickly, being one of the few Shardbearers with a motive. Edit: Made the meaning more clear. Edited July 4, 2014 by EMTrevor
Aleksiel Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 It says the murder wasn't for the shardblade, which then could lead to pointing out Adolin more quickly, being one of the few Shardbearers with a motive. Knowing Sadeas was murdered as revenge isn't that helpful. All bridgemen and Tower survivals have the same motive.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 Knowing Sadeas was murdered as revenge isn't that helpful. All bridgemen and Tower survivals have the same motive. But how many of those non-shardbearers would just toss a Shardblade out a window carelessly? If the killer was someone without a Blade, they'd find a way to hide it better, and retrieve it later to bond in secret. Maybe a week sick in bed like Dalinar did. Leaving the Blade there points to a Shardbearer, who'd be the only one who could afford to not care what happens to a Blade, since they already have one.
Aleksiel Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 But how many of those non-shardbearers would just toss a Shardblade out a window carelessly? If the killer was someone without a Blade, they'd find a way to hide it better, and retrieve it later to bond in secret. Maybe a week sick in bed like Dalinar did. Leaving the Blade there points to a Shardbearer, who'd be the only one who could afford to not care what happens to a Blade, since they already have one. Taking the Blade would have been too risky and if the killer was darkeyes and tried to bond it, it'd be obvious after a while when his eyes lightened. If the killer stole it, but didn't try to bond it, he wouldn't be able to take it out of Urithiru, so it wouldn't be of much use. Not taking the Blade doesn't point at a Shardbearer killer right away, especially considering that Sadeas was knifed.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 Taking the Blade would have been too risky and if the killer was darkeyes and tried to bond it, it'd be obvious after a while when his eyes lightened. If the killer stole it, but didn't try to bond it, he wouldn't be able to take it out of Urithiru, so it wouldn't be of much use. Not taking the Blade doesn't point at a Shardbearer killer right away, especially considering that Sadeas was knifed. It's not as much about not taking the Blade, or even about the killing with the knife, but the way the Blade was hidden. It won't take much conjecture to conclude that it was thrown out that window to land on the terrace, and that shows the killer didn't care to hide it that well. I feel that if the murder was done by a non-Shardbearer, they would take the time to hide the Blade to try and recover it. Also, greed blinds a good money people to common sense. Although, I doubt they'll think a darkeyes did it. No darkeyes could get that close to Sadeas without him becoming suspicious, which then it would've been next to impossible for them to kill Sadeas the way he was killed. The fact that he had that six foot death bringer changes how the investigation would look at it. It would've had to be someone Sadeas trusted, or at least knew, in order to be in a position for that sort of assassination to work. I don't think I've ever even seen Sadeas talk to a Darkeyes, let alone let one get close enough to him to attack him with a knife.
Aleksiel Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) It's not as much about not taking the Blade, or even about the killing with the knife, but the way the Blade was hidden. It won't take much conjecture to conclude that it was thrown out that window to land on the terrace, and that shows the killer didn't care to hide it that well. I feel that if the murder was done by a non-Shardbearer, they would take the time to hide the Blade to try and recover it. Also, greed blinds a good money people to common sense. Although, I doubt they'll think a darkeyes did it. No darkeyes could get that close to Sadeas without him becoming suspicious, which then it would've been next to impossible for them to kill Sadeas the way he was killed. The fact that he had that six foot death bringer changes how the investigation would look at it. It would've had to be someone Sadeas trusted, or at least knew, in order to be in a position for that sort of assassination to work. I don't think I've ever even seen Sadeas talk to a Darkeyes, let alone let one get close enough to him to attack him with a knife. Adolin was watching from the shadows, so may be there was somewhere someone could hide and unexpectedly jump on Sadeas, but that very much depends on the surrounding. Any darkeyes could have pretended he had a message for Sadeas and come close enough to kill him. Edited July 4, 2014 by Aleksiel
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 I feel like that's a bit of a stretch. You have to get pretty close to use a knife. If the Dark eyes drew before getting close enough, Sadeas would have time to react. If he waits, Sadeas will get suspicious when he gets close (assuming American personal space customs.) Adolin didn't go for his knife until after Sadeas was on the ground dazed from a blow to the head, and even then had trouble finishing. Sadeas is a trained veteran soldier, I don't think a Dark eyes could take him by surprise like that, which would be the only way to kill him. As far as the shadows, the knife wouldn't have been stabbed into his eye had that been the case. A slit throat or a knife in the back would work better for a premeditated assassination attempt.
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